Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: wmenorr67 on February 18, 2012, 03:18:37 PM
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http://gunholstersunlimited.com/blog/emergency-prepared/ammunition-question-how-much-ammo-do-i-need-in-case-shtf/
I know most of us on here have thought this over many times and we have argued/discussed it many times over also. But still and interesting read and gives one something to think about.
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His reasoning is quite valid, although a similar line of thinking led me to a slightly modified conclusion.
My carry sidearm is a 1911 in .45 automatic, which is certainly mainstream and, as he puts it, a "military caliber." But I don't think there is a police department in my state that issues .45 ACP, and I don't think my state has any black ops type National Guard units that would be carrying 1911s rather than 9mm Berettas. I reload, so I have a stock of .45 ACP on hand and components to build more, but I still got to thinking about alternatives in the event of a zombie apocalypse. Suppose things got to where I might need to gou out and scrounge (note the artful euphemism for "steal") ammunition. What other calibers are likely to be out there if I can't find .45 ACP?
With that in mind, I picked up a 9mm slide and barrel to turn my 1911 into a convertible. Then I saw a .40 S&W slide and barrel for a Para-Ordnance double stack. I have one of those in .45 ACP, along with the single stack ... so I grabbed the .40 slide and barrel and my Para is now also a convertible. I'm now covered for three calibers with just two handguns.
Then I had an opportunity to pick up a non-functioning .38 snubnose revolver for a song, so I jumped on it. It required a very slight amount of internal filing and smoothing to make it fully functional, so I now also have something that shoots .38 Special (not, however, .357 Magnum).
Basically, what I'm proposing is that, while resupply is a very real issue in an emergency, since we are NOT the military we can't be assured that we'll have access to resupply in a single caliber, regardless of how commonplace that caliber is when the world is not on fire. Preparedness to me also involves planning ahead for flexibility.
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How Much Ammo Do I Need In Case SHTF?
My responses:
Now I'll read the article.
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Good read. I agree with Hawkmoon that the author makes valid points, but also question the .45ACP. And this is from a guy who thinks .45ACP is THE caliber for a defensive pistol. In a SHTF resupply (as in scrounging stuff up) it seems much more likely that you would find 9MM and .40, which seem to be the preeminent police calibers today.
That said, scrounging for ammo might only really be relevant if you plan on being on the move. If you shelter in place, there's no reason you can't have 10K rounds of .45ACP at the ready, with the equipment to make thousands of rounds more. Still, in the author's scenario, but with recognition of the ubiquity of 9MM and .40, it's a reason for me not to sell my Glock 23. :)
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Pretty decent piece with out a lot of over the top nonsense that seems common in discussions of that nature.
How much is enough might depend on your SHTF plans. Bug in or Bug out could make a difference. You can only carry so much and trying to carry too much could be a liability.
As far as scrounging ammo for resupply, I just don't see strolling down to the local NG armory or PD asking for handouts of ammo as being a valid strategy. Pretty much if you don't already have it you probably ain't gonna get it in a major SHTF episode.
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The only way I could see getting resupplied during a SHTF episode would be after a fight and you collect whatever the other party had left.
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As far as scrounging ammo for resupply, I just don't see strolling down to the local NG armory or PD asking for handouts of ammo as being a valid strategy. Pretty much if you don't already have it you probably ain't gonna get it in a major SHTF episode.
I was looking at it more as a, "what's the most likely caliber you might find for barter?" scenario. That is if anyone would barter ammo vs hoarding it. Even if I could figure my way into the magazine of a PD or NG Armory, I'd be pretty leery of approaching a place like that during civil unrest. On the one hand you have people guarding the place that might be on edge and have itchy trigger fingers, and on the other hand, seems like a good place for nefarious people to set up an ambush.
Of course the ambush scenario, or just running into people that want to make trouble for you, would apply at the grocery store, hardware store, or just about anyplace that unprepared and desperate people might congregate to grab what they don't have. That's why I really like the "hunker down and lay low" plan. I'm all about avoiding the "Katrina crowds".
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That's why I really like the "hunker down and lay low" plan. I'm all about avoiding the "Katrina crowds".
That.
I read the article. Agree with the wisdom of having common cartridges (not "calibers"). Disagree that they should necessarily to be what military or police use. Are my revolvers a bad choice because police last used them in the '80s, and the military hardly ever this past century? I think not.
My accumulation strategy is, common cartridges, high value per dollar hardware. And if the S really does hit the F beyond a Katrina type disaster, we're probably all screwed.
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Dad and I consolidated our commen calibers awhile back for this reason. Two AR's, two AK's, and three main pistol calibers. We still have some oddballs and are about to get one more, but we will maintain the common stockpile.
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This is the reason I like. 22lr.....easy to stockpile a lot of it....and it can do most of what you need....
I try to keep a common caliber/bore size of 9mm/.38/.357....easier to keep reloading components. I may get a .223 rifle for intermediate use & keep my. 303 Brit as my "big rifle".
Michael Bane suggests getting a powerful air rifle as a alternative hunting tool. Easier to stock ammo, and quiet enough not to draw unwanted attention.
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I really don't expect to need much ammo. I intend to stay hidden and not draw attention to myself. I have all I will ever need though. By summer, I will be living deep in the woods in the UP in summer and east Tx in the winter. I will take whatever steps necessary during the twice annual commute as they come up. I can live year round in either place....chris3
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The answer is another question: What kind of SHTF?
Deep economic SHTF, as in: Life goes on, but your ability to procure more, due to your finances is limited, or due to the market even if you're one of the few with money?
The answer, "As much as you can."
Political SHTF, as in: Your ability to buy more ammo has been legislated away? (IMO, time to use that ammo, but that's another thread... so I digress.) The answer, "As much as you can."
A localized/regional SHTF, such as an earthquake, a tornado, wildfire, or a Katrina where there's also a looting/social unrest? The answer to that is "A single combat load in your chosen handgun and long-gun caliber that you don't dip into during your normal range time." Because if you need more than that, unless you're part of a larger group, you and your family are likely toast.
Total Mad-Max TEOTAWAKI SHTF, with physical, economic, and .gov disaster, that is both pervasive and prolonged? I think it matters if you can "bug in" or if you must "bug out". Bug in, the answer is kind of unsatisfactory. "As much as you can", but my gut reaction is, if you need more than a single combat load, if you're not part of a group, you're probably done for. Bug out, it's what you can reasonably carry, and still carry all your other necessities. Which pretty much means "A combat load" again.
The common caliber advice, 7.62x39, .223/5.56, 12ga, .22LR, .30-06, 9mm, .45acp etc. is sound. But if you need more, post-SHTF, you're going to be bartering for it, and it means you've got stuff people really NEED. Food, medication, fuel, etc. Because ammo is a close second, because it's your ability to actually defend and hang onto those necessities. If you've got the stuff to barter for ammo, then it sounds like you're already a well set up individual or family to me already. So why didn't you have enough ammo in the first place?
Police stations? If it's "that bad" the police will have already distributed or actually used the ammo. If whatever it is happens so fast that the police don't get to their own supplies in the station, then odds are things are so dangerous, flood, fire, fallout, riots... that you probably have no business going after it yourself. And even if the ammo is loot-able, someone with fewer social scruples than you will have gotten to it first.
I hear NG armories actually rarely, if ever, have live ammo. But if they did, the case would hold as it does above for the police station.
So the real possibilities are "battlefield pickups" from what you find or from those you yourself kill. So in that regard, it comes back down to the fact that unless you're part of a superior group, is wherever there's that many dead, or that many you need to kill, is this a place you should be?
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Re: .45ACP
Personally, I don't view police as the number 1 pickup for scrounging ammo. Cops seldom carry more than a couple magazines. Even if the local departments use .45, they won't have that much.
However, the .45 is a widely common caliber among the population. And it can be found in almost every gun and sporting goods store, plus walmarts (that still carry ammo). My local walmart stocks just as much .45 as 9mm. And to echo AJ....if its so bad that you need to scrounge ammo from the po-po....I doubt they'll have any left. It'll all have been used up.
Re: .22lr
I think the idea of bartering .22lr isn't bad. But I think it's discounted too much as a useful caliber. I wouldn't sneeze at the thought of using my 10/22 in a defensive role. Especially if I needed to arm my wife or one of my children. High capacity magazine, JHP ammo, and a scope. Minimal recoil puts follow up shots right into the same ragged hole as fast as you can pull the trigger. "Junk" ammo will explode a milk jug nicely. Nobody wants to get shot, even by the lowly .22.
Another caliber I think is highly overlooked is the .22WMR. Just sayin. Its not too expensive, and the ability of the round bridges the gap from the .22lr into more powerful calibers.
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My local walmart stocks just as much .45 as 9mm.
So does mine. I was there this evening, looking for a specific type of doggie treat my wife had bought a bag of, and can't remember where it came from. Turns out not to have been Wal-Mart, but while I was there I strolled past the ammo cabinet.
One (1) box of 115-gr 9mm, and one (1) box of .45 ACP.
But they had plenty of .45 Colt ...
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He doesn't mention shotguns. I keep at least 2 12g in my inventory, and buy shells when they are on sale- also a military and police item. I do agree that .223, 9mm and fortay are a must have. A few bazillion .22 as well.
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A NG or Reserve Armory may have some ammo but it won't have much. It will only have enough on hand, if any at all, to supply maybe a platoon with a basic combat load. And I doubt it would have that much. And good luck getting to it, if you knew where it was.
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A NG or Reserve Armory may have some ammo but it won't have much. It will only have enough on hand, if any at all, to supply maybe a platoon with a basic combat load. And I doubt it would have that much. And good luck getting to it, if you knew where it was.
And presumably the Guard would have gotten to it before you do, or other looters who are willing to do it while it's still more "stealing" than "recovering".
Common calibers... you might as well for the tiny statistical edge it gives you, but IMO, it's only realistic to plan on going into SHTF, and living through it, with the ammo you've got on hand, period.
I think you could just as easily make the argument that a huge gun collection in a wide array of calibers is just as handy, because it could make it possible to use whatever ammo you can find. Or all the oddball calibers you've got could be just that more lucrative for someone whom that's the only gun they have and are desperate to trade for something you need. (shrug)
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When an article makes a basic mistake (it's 5.7x28 not 25). I immediately discount the authors opinion.
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I think you could just as easily make the argument that a huge gun collection in a wide array of calibers is just as handy, because it could make it possible to use whatever ammo you can find. Or all the oddball calibers you've got could be just that more lucrative for someone whom that's the only gun they have and are desperate to trade for something you need. (shrug)
I suppose that would be a plus for my C&R collection for bartering for some item that I didn't plan for, or didn't have enough on hand for a particular disaster. A 98K and bandoleer of 8MM could be a valuable trade item that I wouldn't miss given my other small arms, and I've got a dozen of those rifles (or variants) and plenty of ammo laying around. :)
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I suppose that would be a plus for my C&R collection for bartering for some item that I didn't plan for, or didn't have enough on hand for a particular disaster. A 98K and bandoleer of 8MM could be a valuable trade item that I wouldn't miss given my other small arms, and I've got a dozen of those rifles (or variants) and plenty of ammo laying around. :)
Depending on how dire the circumstances, a bartered firearm could quickly become a liability.
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Depending on how dire the circumstances, a bartered firearm could quickly become a liability.
I wouldn't be bartering one to anyone with crazy eyes <tm> or pants hanging down to their knees. Given my "lay low" MO, it would likely be to a neighbor who didn't have a gun, but had extra of something I could use. Or heck, if they were a good neighbor and needed a gun, they might get it for free. Kind of a win-win if you can create an extra, trusted, and armed set of eyes for the neighborhood.
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In my current neighborhood, I'd be ok with arming and trusting several of my neighbors. Well, training may be an issue. Idrather not create a liability either.
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Well, training may be an issue. Idrather not create a liability either.
Good point.
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In my current neighborhood, I'd be ok with arming and trusting several of my neighbors. Well, training may be an issue. Idrather not create a liability either.
Training may be an issue, but scavengers are unlikely to mess with any neighborhood where people can at least put the rounds close enough they can hear them go by. I think any SHTF situation, getting along with neighbors is a good plan even if you end up stocking extra water and food to help them out just for that reason. You gotta sleep sometime.
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Training may be an issue, but scavengers are unlikely to mess with any neighborhood where people can at least put the rounds close enough they can hear them go by. I think any SHTF situation, getting along with neighbors is a good plan even if you end up stocking extra water and food to help them out just for that reason. You gotta sleep sometime.
My worry would be the neighbors banging off rounds at shadows, or getting shot in the back when I go investigate a bump in the night. Obviously I can't control them just getting guns in the mean time....
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I was thinking that if you had enough neighbors, you would have a night watch. I guess that is hard with just one.
For me, my 200 lumen surefire does a good job of illumination.
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Buy a gun for every single caliber ever made.
Including a Dardick, GyroJet, .455 Webley Auto, .408 CheyTac, and 2 Bore.
It's the only way to be sure.
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I was thinking that if you had enough neighbors, you would have a night watch. I guess that is hard with just one.
For me, my 200 lumen surefire does a good job of illumination.
No it's very true. I'd just be nervous about arming someone who might have no fire discipline and light one off at the wrong time.
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No it's very true. I'd just be nervous about arming someone who might have no fire discipline and light one off at the wrong time.
I don't disagree, but the same could be said for anyone including your neighbors that already have guns. The stress will bring out the "best" in people.
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Helps if being able to secure a neighborhood like JJ can when you live on a cul-de-sac. Harder to secure a street when it is a secondary artery between two primary ones.
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I agree, except the common caliber I'd be scrounging from the NG would likely be 155mm.
I like my property. Just wish I had more acres, but I got it cheap enough to pay the place off in a few years. It's not out in the far boonies, but not in a densely populated area. Judging from the neighbors, I doubt that many folks would actually GET far enough up the ridge to bother me. I'm not building a fortress (not needed, and too much attention), just... well built.
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I'm either paranoid, or a planner (hopefully more of the latter), but I've thought through multiple SHTF scenarios for my neighborhood, and considered which of my neighbors would be the best defenders (and who I would be willing to arm if need be). My choices would be mostly women, for a number of reasons. Number one - nearly all (maybe all) the men are anti-gunners, who golf every weekend, own no tools, and think that hunting is something that only a toothless hillbilly does. They golf, drink beer, and watch sports. A few mow their own grass. The women understand survival better, and what is at stake. I think they would be more willing to kill bad guys to protect their families....and would likely be quick studies. I think they would better conserve ammo. More importantly, I don't think they'd turn on me or my family. A few well placed mil surp rifles, along with a medium range barrage of buckshot, .223 and pistols would discourage all but the most motivated.
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^^^ Good thinking. Plus there is that whole 'rebuild the human race through unchecked breeding' thing to think of.
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I don't disagree, but the same could be said for anyone including your neighbors that already have guns. The stress will bring out the "best" in people.
True. Only one that I know of has a gun, and I could probably keep him from doing something stupid. The rest I'm not sure I could even consider arming them in all but the most dire circumstances.
Yeah the culdesac gives us a reasonable advantage. Obviously, the more intrepid attackers could come over/through the fence in the back, but the average looter probably isn't going to go to all that trouble.
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I'm finding it more and more difficult to picture wide spread societal breakdown to the point ravening bands of looters would be roaming the suburbs and you'd need prolonged 24/7 over watch. Well, barring a pandemic or meteor strike etc. It seems to me that even in the event of currency collapses in Argentina or the Weimar things were not at that level. Unless one envisions a return to the literal dark ages where men forget how all that fancy technology stuff worked (and lost the ability to decipher the texts describing it) then having 50k rounds of ammunition seems to be a bit impractical. Especially if other items (food creation, medical care, ability to actually use all that equipment etc) is neglected. Not being negative towards anyone who does see that as a strong possibility, just my own viewpoint these days.
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If the S hits the windmere to level 11, a flintlock and a keg of powder will get me by.
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I'm finding it more and more difficult to picture wide spread societal breakdown to the point ravening bands of looters would be roaming the suburbs and you'd need prolonged 24/7 over watch. Well, barring a pandemic or meteor strike etc. It seems to me that even in the event of currency collapses in Argentina or the Weimar things were not at that level. Unless one envisions a return to the literal dark ages where men forget how all that fancy technology stuff worked (and lost the ability to decipher the texts describing it) then having 50k rounds of ammunition seems to be a bit impractical. Especially if other items (food creation, medical care, ability to actually use all that equipment etc) is neglected. Not being negative towards anyone who does see that as a strong possibility, just my own viewpoint these days.
Your viewpoint isn't at all unreasonable. The odds are mainly in favor of "tough times" rather than total SHTF. As Micro's pointed out, Rome survived as an Empire for several centuries longer after the Republic had fallen. Barring an asteroid or WWIII, I'd lay money on a "at least the trains run on time" sort of American future, maybe up until the ages of anyone on this board's great-grandchildren.
And plenty of modern "first world" nations have and are faring worse than what we've got going on right now, without America's massive economic "momentum" (or land, agriculture, or resources) for lack of a better term. Nobody is expecting Greece to look like "Mad Max" or even Sarajevo, even if there's total default and a withdrawing from the Eurozone over there.
Although OTOH, according to Ferfal's blog and articles on these events, armed gangs going house to house DID happen to some degree, way above the "normal crime background rate" for Argentina. Bad enough that most folks needed (but did not have) a LCMSR and fortified doorways. He also pointed out that the rural folks generally fared worse in these attacks, since the looters could occupy the home for a few days/weeks, and er... "play" with the occupants with little chance of being heard. Playing the odds, row houses in a good middle class neighborhood was actually your best bet, since your neighbors, and potential help was often just a wall away. If the family did get wiped out, at least it was quicker.
And in places like SA, as I'm sure Jocasee can tell you, razor wire and security gates inside one's own home are commonplace.
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Oh absolutely AJ, I was actually thinking of ferfal when I wrote that. I guess to me there is a difference between sharply increased home invasion robbery and the Rodney King riots being replayed nation wide, far from urban centers, for an extended period of time. And the latter seems a staple of survivalist fiction.
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I'm finding it more and more difficult to picture wide spread societal breakdown to the point ravening bands of looters would be roaming the suburbs and you'd need prolonged 24/7 over watch. Well, barring a pandemic or meteor strike etc. It seems to me that even in the event of currency collapses in Argentina or the Weimar things were not at that level. Unless one envisions a return to the literal dark ages where men forget how all that fancy technology stuff worked (and lost the ability to decipher the texts describing it) then having 50k rounds of ammunition seems to be a bit impractical. Especially if other items (food creation, medical care, ability to actually use all that equipment etc) is neglected. Not being negative towards anyone who does see that as a strong possibility, just my own viewpoint these days.
I fully agree with your statement.
My primary número UNO concern is being in a hurricane zone near a major metropolis. Everyone points to Katrina, but I'd liken my possible scenario to be more Andrew-like.
I have several hundred rounds of ammo for all my calibers except my .30-30. The cheapest and easiest gun to feed and stock for is my .22. My [tinfoil] mad max fantasies say "keep several thousand rounds of deuce deuce on hand". I intend to buy more .22's in the next few years.
Nobody wants to be shot. I stand by the belief that the .22 is one of the best "oh *expletive deleted*it, society has collapsed!" calibers. You can walk out the door with a long gun and a hand gun and several thousand rounds in your pocket. Is it a bad ass man stopper? Nope. But in a pinch, several well placed hits will get the point across. My 10/22 is a tack driver.
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I have several hundred rounds of ammo for all my calibers except my .30-30.
You should change that. .30-30 is probably one of the cheapest non-milsurp major centerfire cartridge, and lever-action .30-30s are handy rifles.
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I also bought an air rifle and a few thousand pellets for small SHTF game hunting. My right arm has served me well for many years and is not likely to give out for awhile. :laugh:
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The cheapest and easiest gun to feed and stock for is my .22. My [tinfoil] mad max fantasies say "keep several thousand rounds of deuce deuce on hand". I intend to buy more .22's in the next few years.
Nobody wants to be shot.
"Several" thousand? There was a while during the Great 0bama Ammo Famine when .22 bulk pack was all I could find. I ended up with somewhere in the neighborhood of 8-10 thousand rounds.
Just hope Winchester, Federal, et al are geared up for Round Two.
I stand by the belief that the .22 is one of the best "oh *expletive deleted*, society has collapsed!" calibers. You can walk out the door with a long gun and a hand gun and several thousand rounds in your pocket. Is it a bad ass man stopper? Nope. But in a pinch, several well placed hits will get the point across.
Nobody's going to stay hanging around with someone plinking at them. My 10/22 is a tack driver.
Note to self -- take the 10/22 out more.
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You should change that. .30-30 is probably one of the cheapest non-milsurp major centerfire cartridge, and lever-action .30-30s are handy rifles.
As cheap as 7.62x54?
I note that a lever rifle is more cast bullet friendly than an autoloader.
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As cheap as 7.62x54?
7.62x54 is milsurp.
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If you need more range, thinks like 17Mach2 and 17 HMR are nice rounds also. 17Mach2 costs about $60 for 500 rounds. I converted my 10/22 and can do 1" groups at 100 yards most every time out. More than good enough.
If you have the money, something suppressed would be valuable in a situation like that to help stay concealed.
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I would think the defensibility of a cul-de-sac would depend a lot on what is behind it. If there are just more houses, fine, but if if there is a street, bayou, or right of way, you are vulnerable. I know the wood fence on my house is not a very good barrier. I would say most of the boards are tight, but I can't say they all are or would stay that way.
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Well, I don't know the "right" answer, but I don't like having less than 1k rounds per weapon (preferably 2k), plus 5k in 5.56 and 10k of 22LR. And a minimum of 5 magazines (10+ preferable) per weapon, 20+ for common ones (AR, FAL, etc).
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You should change that. .30-30 is probably one of the cheapest non-milsurp major centerfire cartridge, and lever-action .30-30s are handy rifles.
I've been stocking shotgun and handgun ammo mostly. Intend to pick a few more boxes of .3030 this year.
If you need more range, thinks like 17Mach2 and 17 HMR are nice rounds also. 17Mach2 costs about $60 for 500 rounds. I converted my 10/22 and can do 1" groups at 100 yards most every time out. More than good enough.
If you have the money, something suppressed would be valuable in a situation like that to help stay concealed.
Twenty twos are pretty cheap to suppress.
My next ones will likely not be magazine fed, to feed my post apocalyptic fantasies. Tube fed lever or semis I think.
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Well, I don't know the "right" answer, but I don't like having less than 1k rounds per weapon (preferably 2k), plus 5k in 5.56 and 10k of 22LR. And a minimum of 5 magazines (10+ preferable) per weapon, 20+ for common ones (AR, FAL, etc).
A big thing to consider is a) if you are prepping for anything and b) what are you prepping for?
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A big thing to consider is a) if you are prepping for anything and b) what are you prepping for?
I'm prepping for my hobby of shooting...a lot, other than that, nothing in particular :)
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Zombie apocalypse. Target rich environment. =D Although I think you are seriously lacking in ammo in that regards.
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I'm prepping for my hobby of shooting...a lot, other than that, nothing in particular :)
Essentially it's the same here.
Although, one could probably conserve ammo a lot, if they were to arrange things so as to funnel any attackers of their post-SHTF redoubt into nice tight single-file rows.
Then just a few shots of magnum caliber FMJ should suffice, as it would pass through several of them for each shot. :angel:
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Essentially it's the same here.
Although, one could probably conserve ammo a lot, if they were to arrange things so as to funnel any attackers of their post-SHTF redoubt into nice tight single-file rows.
Then just a few shots of magnum caliber FMJ should suffice, as it would pass through several of them for each shot. :angel:
Stack 'em like cord wood.
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"I've only got one bullet left, I'm waiting for them to line up..."
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"I've only got one bullet left, I'm waiting for them to line up..."
The actual quote (after saying he had one shot left and his partner saying there were "a hundred satanists") was "I'm hoping for a couple of lucky ricochets" :)
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No, "waiting for them to line up" that's from "Dori Day Afternoon" the one where they get stuck in the middle of a bank robbery, and he only has one round left, because he used the other five to herd/shoot the suicidal jumper off the ledge earlier.
Oh, and sorry everyone, apparently now this is a "Sledge Hammer!"-thread. =D
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Time to pull out the complete DVD set. :cool:
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No, "waiting for them to line up" that's from "Dori Day Afternoon" the one where they get stuck in the middle of a bank robbery, and he only has one round left, because he used the other five to herd/shoot the suicidal jumper off the ledge earlier.
Oh, and sorry everyone, apparently now this is a "Sledge Hammer!"-thread. =D
Oh yeah! Forgot that one...I thought you were referring to the satanist one. Come to think of it, how many times did he only have one shot left?
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Probably a lot. =D
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Well, I don't know the "right" answer, but I don't like having less than 1k rounds per weapon (preferably 2k), plus 5k in 5.56 and 10k of 22LR. And a minimum of 5 magazines (10+ preferable) per weapon, 20+ for common ones (AR, FAL, etc).
No disagreement, but after you do that with a few different calibers and a couple guns per caliber, you can probably slow down a bit. =D
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Well, I don't know the "right" answer, but I don't like having less than 1k rounds per weapon (preferably 2k), plus 5k in 5.56 and 10k of 22LR. And a minimum of 5 magazines (10+ preferable) per weapon, 20+ for common ones (AR, FAL, etc).
This. Mags are as important as ammo. Rule of thumb, spend between 50% and 100% of the weapon's value on mags. I keep plenty of 9mm, .40, 5.56 and .308 on hand. I suppose I should up my .45 as well, but I don't use it much. I do need to up my 12 gauge ammo stock, any suggestions are welcome.
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Flechette rounds
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No disagreement, but after you do that with a few different calibers and a couple guns per caliber, you can probably slow down a bit. =D
Hmm... 22LR, 9mm, 40SW, 45ACP, 5.7, 5.56, 7.62, 338LM, 12ga...I have an impulse buying problem...
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Flechette rounds
Overrated, unless dispensed in artillery quantities, and at velocities higher than most handheld firearms can produce. The surplus ones folks like to stuff into 12ga, half of them don't even turn around before reaching the target, and they have poor penetration. And a fair number are just stuck in by the tips when shot at things like soft pine lumber. It's possible they may have a purpose in ambush breaking in dense foliage, but that presumes you've got lots of buddies to press any gap it makes in the enemy.
I had some from here: http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM005-1.html I've shot a few loads of them from a 12ga for grins, (Don't tell my club please... :angel: ) and at 50 yards about 30% of them were still going through the paper sideways.
Propelled by explosives? Assuming they don't get bent on detonation, and you could somehow keep them oriented and from spinning, then it would be nasty. But I don't have any explosives... =( (kicks at dirt dejectedly)
Now the individual flechettes that mass as much as a traditional bullet, or more, and ride in a sabot showed some promise, however, even they lacked in terminal performance, and the sabot pieces pelting friendlies to the sides of your firing lane was a problem too. Anyway, nothing the flechettes did was found to be worth the effort or expense of
I'm intrigued by long, long, long bullets that are low in caliber, high in mass, and have good sectional density. Especially if they have an air-pocket tip so they tumble like the Soviet/Russian 5.45x39 is supposed to do. It's somewhat "dart like" in a way, but still has all the benefits of being an actual bullet.
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Chris you can stock up on 00 buck at walmart, etc. Value packs of buck are usually sub $15 (for 15 rounds). Comes in a green box.
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Estate, Rio, Nobelsport, and Centurion have good bulk deals online too. Much, much better than $1 a round which is about as good as you can do at Walmart on defensive/hunting 12ga.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/250rds-12-gauge-nobelsport-le-2-34-12-pellet-00-buckshot/cName/12-gauge-2-34-buckshot
The Saiga 12 folks who are always looking for cheap ways to feed their big box magazines and drums seem pretty happy with some of these offerings.
And Nobelsport also has a solid .65 caliber ball option that's very cheap too.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/cPath/120_259_206/products_id/5109
IMO, the only thing less expensive than Nobelsport when it comes to buckshot or solids is rolling your own loads from components and once-fired hulls. Primers, wads, powder, and scrap lead... if you can find the once fired hulls for free, or you're reusing your own, then it gets down to around $.16 a shell or so. Also note, they need not be premium "high brass" hulls. It's more of a marketing affectation these days. The plastic of the hull, and the bolt/chamber of the shotgun really is what's providing all the support anyway. Low brass will fire a slug or buckshot load just as well as high brass will. It's a hold over from the old days of paper shells, and wound Damascus steel shotguns when the brass actually did provide some modicum of extra support. Now it's just tradition. And a place for the extractor to grab onto.
They never caught on but Activ even produced an all plastic shotshell for several years. (It did have a metal washer molded into the base for primer support, but that's it...) They went out of business, but their shells worked just as well as anyone else's and were just as reloadable too. As ammo costs keep going up, I expect some of the makers to get back into all plastic shells eventually. IMO, not really a bad idea. It's just that much less metal to corrode IMO.
Anyway... at reloading prices, it's VERY EASY to recoup the costs of a melter pot, a mold, and a Lee Load-All II (around $120, give or take...) in just a few hundred rounds. And in general, shotshell reloading is easier and somewhat more forgiving a process than centerfire brass cartridge reloading in certain ways. And you may have some VERY LUCRATIVE equipment and skills come SHTF, or even just a prolonged economic downturn. And it's much cheaper to stockpile components than it is finished ammunition. And easier to spread out the costs too. Primers one month, hulls another, scrap lead wherever you find it, powder when it's on sale, wads are always cheap... etc.
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Estate, Rio, Nobelsport, and Centurion have good bulk deals online too.
Estate is some good ammo. I bought a couple of cases of 00 and 000 (based on recommendations here) the last time Cabelas had a sale on them. As an aside, one would not think of Cabelas as the cheapest place to buy ammo, but I have gotten some really good deals there during sales.
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My only shortage is in 12ga. I have around 500rds of various birdshot but >20rds of social ammo.
I should get at least a case of something to have on hand.
I also have a bad habit of when I buy longs guns getting the larger model. Example is my AR-15, there are AR-10's that weigh less than this thing. It is an M16A4 pattern but with a very heavy bull barrel. The barrel is only very slightly less diameter than the A2 flash suppressor. Accurate as all get out and fun to shoot, but one of these days I need to build up the stripped lower sitting in my safe into an M4orgery. That would be more useful than the clunker if I had to move around.
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I think that about my Vepr K sometimes. I have a Saiga that needs to be converted to be the light weight version.
I am short of 12 gauge also. However, all I have a in an 870. No self defense models at all. I'll have to look for the WalMart 12 gauge.
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Find some ammo that patterns well and stock up.
Buck and slugs, buck and slugs...
My rule is that if I'm running low on ammo is to buy a couple boxes a week plus a mag for the weapon in question.
No such thing as too much ammo or mags. For fighting rifles, I like 1K or above plus 15-20 mags. For pistols 250 rds or so is easily comfortable (it's a secondary weapon) and 5-10 mags. For shotguns 500 rds should be sufficient (250 each of buck and slugs). For .22LR I like 5000 rds and 5 mags per weapon (at a minimum).
.22LR, 5.56, 9mm, and 12 ga are the calibers I stock up on. The oddball calibers (7.62x54R, .30-30, etc) that I have are guns for historical or sentimental reasons. I have plenty of each on hand usually, but they don't figure into defensive plans for me.
Don't forget spare parts (extractors and a bolt for an AR-15, the o-rings for an 11-87, and so on). You want to have these on hand JIC. Most modern weapons will go pretty long between failures, but it's all just in case...
And that should see you through most anything.
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I am not preparing for the ultimate SHTF because I don't believe it will ever happen in the USA short of a world war where we loose.
I base my purchases on my shooting habits. I honestly believe a few hundred rounds is about all you need for any "normal" SHTF event. So big deal, you have 20,000 rounds of 223.... can you carry that? If you were loading up your vehicle to "bug out", would you haul that much ammo even if you owned it? I would rather have food and the means to purify water.
In the vein of the article, I think your best choices are the common calibers if you want to cache away some ammo for whatever need. But I agree with the 22LR suggestion.