Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Balog on September 30, 2014, 05:24:56 PM
-
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/30/health/ebola-us/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
Be interesting to see how it got here. The fact that it's in a border state is especially interesting.
-
Minimal comfort in the fact it's not down the corridor from me, which I expected on opening the link.
-
Relevant.
http://wrair-www.army.mil/Documents/TropMed/Feb-2012/%2819%29%20Kortepeter_Hemorrhagic%20Fevers_February%202012.pdf
-
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov%2Fvhf%2Febola%2Fimages%2Foutbreak-distribution-map.jpg&hash=81bb23fb174118c92c50fac70fc56f5b541c1f99)
-
So what are you going to do? Seal the your house with duct tape and refuse to come out?
-
So what are you going to do? Seal the your house with duct tape and refuse to come out?
:facepalm:
I'm going to keep informed. If further steps are required later I'll take them. I thought about making smart ass comments to people on internet forums who were trying to be helpful and disseminate useful information, but I don't have that kind of time.
CDC is reporting the guy flew in from Liberia, reported symptoms on the 24th, was not hospitalized until the 28th. 4 days of being infectious out in the wild, be interesting to see how much it spread from that.
-
http://www.uptodate.com/contents/epidemiology-pathogenesis-and-clinical-manifestations-of-ebola-and-marburg-virus-disease
-
I'm waiting for something like this to pop up in India or China.
-
I'm waiting for something like this to pop up in India or China.
That will be a game changer
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
That will be a game changer
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Calls to mind visions of opening scenes from a zombie flick. Crowds and chaos followed by piles, pits, and fires.
-
I'm waiting for something like this to pop up in India or China.
Iran/Iraq/Afghanistan/Pakistan/similar would be much worse than China or India. China and India have a lot of modern hospitals and plenty of doctors.
-
:facepalm:
I'm going to keep informed. If further steps are required later I'll take them. I thought about making smart ass comments to people on internet forums who were trying to be helpful and disseminate useful information, but I don't have that kind of time.
CDC is reporting the guy flew in from Liberia, reported symptoms on the 24th, was not hospitalized until the 28th. 4 days of being infectious out in the wild, be interesting to see how much it spread from that.
So if Ebola is found in one person in your current city and your boss is requiring you to go to work or lose you job, what will you do?
-
So if Ebola is found in one person in your current city and your boss is requiring you to go to work or lose you job, what will you do?
Troll people on APS with ridiculous hypotheticals? Or would that be taking over your territory?
-
Troll people on APS with ridiculous hypotheticals? Or would that be taking over your territory?
If I am a troll then you are Chicken Little.
-
Meh. There have been 450 cases of various hemorrhagic fevers in the us in the last 25 years and the mortality rate here is always much less than elsewhere. Not sweating it yet.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
So if Ebola is found in one person in your current city and your boss is requiring you to go to work or lose you job, what will you do?
I'll take "More information, please" for a thousand, Alex.
It's like the fact that there are several vials of different strains of smallpox floating around out there and one of the likely corridors of transport in down the middle of where I live. But without additional information I just don't know whether to be scared out of my wits, check to see if my last inoculation is still any good, or go get a seat and watch the chaos-monkeys.
While you are scrounging up more information would you please tell me if you have stopped beating your wife.
stay safe.
-
I'll take "More information, please" for a thousand, Alex.
It's like the fact that there are several vials of different strains of smallpox floating around out there and one of the likely corridors of transport in down the middle of where I live. But without additional information I just don't know whether to be scared out of my wits, check to see if my last inoculation is still any good, or go get a seat and watch the chaos-monkeys.
While you are scrounging up more information would you please tell me if you have stopped beating your wife.
stay safe.
We got West Nile and Chikungunya reported where I live, hasn't slowed life down yet.
-
West Nile out here too. The world still turns.
There is a lot of money to be made with fear, and political goals
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
If I am a troll then you are Chicken Little.
Your posts in this thread are definitely trolling.
This is something that has the potential to become a problem. I am posting information about it. ZOMG CHICKEN LITTLE!!!
;/
-
Your posts in this thread are definitely trolling.
This is something that has the potential to become a problem. I am posting information about it. ZOMG CHICKEN LITTLE!!!
;/
How can Ebola become a problem in the US? US is not third world Africa.
-
How can Ebola become a problem in the US? US is not third world Africa.
It seems we are going to see how well your hypothesis holds up.
Allowing folks from countries experiencing Ebola epidemics to fly into major population centers and potentially infect US citizens?
Sounds like a problem to me; even if only one person is infected and dies stateside from exposure to this guy, it's a problem.
-
I am reminded of the folks trying to hang the recent enterovirus outbreak on the "brown hordes" . When in fact it was identified in the 60's in California
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
It seems we are going to see how well your hypothesis holds up.
Allowing folks from countries experiencing Ebola epidemics to fly into major population centers and potentially infect US citizens?
Sounds like a problem to me; even if only one person is infected and dies stateside from exposure to this guy, it's a problem.
Influenza kills thousands of Americans each year, so lets close our borders and end all international travel into the US.
-
I am reminded of the folks trying to hang the recent enterovirus outbreak on the "brown hordes" . When in fact it was identified in the 60's in California
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Yea, my concern of pandemic has nothing to do with the best way of dealing with ebola (isolation/quarantine) and is a manifestation of my latent racism :facepalm:
Who cares if a few (or many?) people die an unimaginable death as long as its in the name of fairness, diversity, inclusion and multiculturalism right?
-
Influenza kills thousands of Americans each year, so lets close our borders and end all international travel into the US.
Why don't we send your wife to the airport to be the personal greeter for flights coming from pandemic stricken countries?
Ebola is not the flu, don't act the fool.
-
Why don't we send your wife to the airport to be the personal greeter for flights coming from pandemic stricken countries?
Ebola is not the flu, don't act the fool.
Yep, because the flu is a lot more contagious and kills a lot more people.
Ebola requires bodily fluid transmission and flu is transmitted airborne from water vapor in human respiration.
If Ebola transmitted as bad as some people think it does, don't you think most of the people in West Africa would be dead by now?
-
Why don't we send your wife to the airport to be the personal greeter for flights coming from pandemic stricken countries?
Better yet, at my place of work I get to work in close contact with people who travel internationally quite regularly to the hot bed of diseases parts of the world: Africa, SE Asia, Middle East, Eastern Europe and South America.
-
Has there ever been a flu epidemic that mobilized the US to send the military to help contain the spread of the disease?
-
Has there ever been a flu epidemic that mobilized the US to send the military to help contain the spread of the disease?
Not military but the government got involved with trying to stop it, (teaser, didn't work out so well)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_swine_flu_outbreak
-
Glad the dude spewing blood out all orifices is not at the hospital where my wife works. I suggested she avoid working prn south of i635 until this passes. Though if hypervelocity exsanguinator infected others herebouts chances are they will end up at her hospital.
As for the "this is the usa not the turd world" myopia, that is quite relevant and true. Until it is not. Meaning that if too many cases erupt in too short a time all bets are off. The lengths to which the hospital will go to isolate the wonderfully projectile bleeding boost to our vibrancy are limited. Exceed that local limit and you end up with the ususal natural disaster scene where the hospital is a mess. Nurses and doc then catch it and then it starts to get interesting.
And wouldnt it suck if the power grid got ate up while the fine fine immigrant and his microbiological stow aways were in isolation? Or in a few weeks if he infected others? Tornado hurricane or terrorist no matter. I got your turd world right here buddy!
-
http://www.businessinsider.com/ebola-virus-in-us-dallas-dont-panic-2014-9
-
I'm waiting for something like this to pop up in India or China.
That's my concern. And massive world economic fallout after that.
And I think the sheer population density, much higher than Africa etc., would overwhelm their medical system if it got going.
Per-capita (according to the WHO) patient/hospital bed ratio in the U.S. is roughly 3.3/1000
China it's 3.8/1000 (although I question the veracity, worker's paradise propaganda, or a straw mat in a hut counting as a "bed".)
India it's something like .8/1000 [tinfoil]
-
How can Ebola become a problem in the US? US is not third world Africa.
Become airborne.
Be weaponized as airborne.
Have a small handful of Levi cases, then tens of thousands of folks who have the flu and panic as the initial symptoms are the Sam and overwhelm medical systems.
Have it hit China or India and second order economic effects.
But you're right, anything other than pretending it doesn't exist and can never hurt us is just fear mongering.
-
It is nearly impossible for Ebola to spread in the US (http://qz.com/273972/stay-calm-and-carry-on-why-its-nearly-impossible-for-ebola-to-spread-in-the-us/)
-
Become airborne.
Be weaponized as airborne.
Have a small handful of Levi cases, then tens of thousands of folks who have the flu and panic as the initial symptoms are the Sam and overwhelm medical systems.
Have it hit China or India and second order economic effects.
But you're right, anything other than pretending it doesn't exist and can never hurt us is just fear mongering.
I take it you never took a microbiology class in college?
Here is a real quick primer:
For a body fluid transmitted virus to become tough enough to be airborne would take a lot of evolution. Viruses are not living organisms like bacteria, they are an RNA chain coated in protein. Ebola has a pretty weak protein shell and would have to go through millions if not trillions of mutations to develop a thick enough protein coat that will allow the RNA inside to stay viable outside of the host for an extended period of time carried by a different vector. A virus can only multiply inside the living cells of a host by combining with the host's RNA.
-
Fear is a funny thing.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
I don't genuinely think that most of the people who are talking this way about Ebola are literally afraid of it (or cowards in any way). I think Balog in particular is a very brave person.
On the other hand many people seem to derive a strange joy from discussing the worst possible contingencies. Endless examples of this can be seen on this forum.
-
I take it you never took a microbiology class in college?
Here is a real quick primer:
For a body fluid transmitted virus to become tough enough to be airborne would take a lot of evolution. Viruses are not living organisms like bacteria, they are an RNA chain coated in protein. Ebola has a pretty weak protein shell and would have to go through millions if not trillions of mutations to develop a thick enough protein coat that will allow the RNA inside to stay viable outside of the host for an extended period of time carried by a different vector. A virus can only multiply inside the living cells of a host by combining with the host's RNA.
Reston strain was airborne, so, you know, it's impossible and all except for that time it happened already.
-
It is nearly impossible for Ebola to spread in the US (http://qz.com/273972/stay-calm-and-carry-on-why-its-nearly-impossible-for-ebola-to-spread-in-the-us/)
Yeah, panic is not warranted, but the title is not supported by the underlying data.
All you need is for a local outbreak to exceed the capacity of local med facilities to manage it with the a great level of care that thus far have been applied. Run out of the hospitals' storm troopers (intensive care / trauma nurses & docs and similarly oriented techs) and you start moving into the more mundane sort. A great many of whom are products of duh-versity quotas/grants(1), political pull (county hospitals), and the mania to put charting before all else. Treating a patient with ebola while adhering to best practices is a far cry from taking care of little old ladies who just got a lap chole.
A "better" place for an outbreak in Texas is along the southern border, where the illegals have already destroyed the health care infrastructure. Del Rio or Brackettville or Marfa for instance.
(1) Two Bill Gates scholarship snowflakes who work as PCAs got their RN education at Really Expensive Private School paid for by Bill Gates' foundation. Lots of bragging about how well she was going to do, but she managed to cock up her cert exam. Her almost-RN cert cost ~20x what we paid for my wife's RN ejjumication.
I take it you never took a microbiology class in college?
Here is a real quick primer:
For a body fluid transmitted virus to become tough enough to be airborne would take a lot of evolution. Viruses are not living organisms like bacteria, they are an RNA chain coated in protein. Ebola has a pretty weak protein shell and would have to go through millions if not trillions of mutations to develop a thick enough protein coat that will allow the RNA inside to stay viable outside of the host for an extended period of time carried by a different vector. A virus can only multiply inside the living cells of a host by combining with the host's RNA.
All well and good. But it seems that other related viruses have made the jump, such as the outbreak of Reston virus a few years back. Thankfully, was not transmitted to human (Correction: I think it was transmitted to humans but has not yet mutated so as to cause us great harm to humans just yet. Tough on baboons, though.). But similar enough to ebola to be misdiagnosed as such, IIRC. And there was the case of ebola that was transmitted over a distance at the Army facility between the baboons. No explanation yet, but it is hopeful that it was from some excessive sputum becoming an aerosol in the confines of the lab.
[Oh, I see Balog got to the Reston bit.]
-
Reston strain was airborne, so, you know, it's impossible and all except for that time it happened already.
Granted same genus but different species. I never said impossible, but more likely unrealistic.
Google Marburg virus if you want to lose some sleep. Marburg virus is same family as the Ebola viruses.
-
Describes the Canadian study with a minimum of hysteria and speculation
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-20341423
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
The highest levels of ship design and engineering of the time declared the Titanic to be unsinkable. Where people speak in absolutes with overconfidence about the untested, I see hubris.
-
IMO, Ebola is unlikely to be a big problem in the United States, all other factors aside, because it's a known quantity.
However, a little panic/upset over Ebola will sharpen the spear a bit to be prepared for some unknown quantity, like the next bad flu variant etc.
-
The highest levels of ship design and engineering of the time declared the Titanic to be unsinkable. Where people speak in absolutes with overconfidence about the untested, I see hubris.
The Titanic's sinking was not a failure of design. Had the crew followed the safety protocol for ships of this design, it would not have sunk.
-
Reston strain was airborne, so, you know, it's impossible and all except for that time it happened already.
Strain would mean a sub species, not the same species. Plus I never said impossible.
-
The highest levels of ship design and engineering of the time declared the Titanic to be unsinkable. Where people speak in absolutes with overconfidence about the untested, I see hubris.
I fail to see any absolutes mentioned, remember biology is a lot of tested and accepted theories unlike chemistry or physics where the science is laws.
-
So if Ebola is found in one person in your current city and your boss is requiring you to go to work or lose you job, what will you do?
Some measures can be taken. Gloves (forget handwashing...gloves are better), surgical masks, and safety glasses would go a long way in ensuring you survive until the quarantine phase. These types of illnesses are hard to contract if you just safeguard your precious bodily fluids appropriately.
-
This lady gave it a whirl
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/25/health/ebola-fatu-family
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Granted same genus but different species. I never said impossible, but more likely unrealistic.
Google Marburg virus if you want to lose some sleep. Marburg virus is same family as the Ebola viruses.
No one is saying it's terribly likely, just something to be aware of. No different than carrying a gun for the very very unlikely chance I will need to defend myself, except maintaining a minimum awareness of this is easier cheaper and carries no legal liabilities.
And, as I pointed out, all that is needed is the public perception that there may be an Ebola epidemic to cause a panic. I think that is far more likely. Still not all that probable but more so than an actual epidemic.
-
I don't like the fact this guy apparently was ill with symptoms of flu, went to the hospital, then was sent home for a few days and later admitted in a very sick state. The opportunities for spreading the infection were present.
The truth is, neither the "OMG we are are all gonna die" camp or the "don't be a hysterical rumor monger" camps have a clue- we just don't know. Yet.
The problem I have is that the official lying and obfuscation have grown to be SOP.
There is no gov. info anybody can really trust.
-
Hopefully the new z30 min test they claim is coming will help. Anyone know what the current testing requires?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
I don't like the fact this guy apparently was ill with symptoms of flu, went to the hospital, then was sent home for a few days and later admitted in a very sick state. The opportunities for spreading the infection were present.
The truth is, neither the "OMG we are are all gonna die" camp or the "don't be a hysterical rumor monger" camps have a clue- we just don't know. Yet.
The problem I have is that the official lying and obfuscation have grown to be SOP.
There is no gov. info anybody can really trust.
Yep, this.
If there was real reason to un-ass DFW, we would have the same rat bastard bureaucritters claiming there was no threat, no risk, blah blah bullshit blah.
-
I read that a number of people in Africa were dying because they either were too afraid to go to a hospital, or the hospital was so overwhelmed by Ebola cases that they were turned away and so didn't get treatment for mundane ailments.
-
Never let a crisis go to waste.
-
Never let a crisis go to waste.
What does Winston Churchill have to do with Ebola?
-
explosive vests would make the body fluids rather air transmissable
:'(
-
I read that a number of people in Africa were dying because they either were too afraid to go to a hospital, or the hospital was so overwhelmed by Ebola cases that they were turned away and so didn't get treatment for mundane ailments.
Hospitals are where ebola really gets going in africa. The various strains of ebola go from approx 25pct fatal to 90pct fatal even with first world medical intervention.
-
Hospitals are where ebola really gets going in africa. The various strains of ebola go from approx 25pct fatal to 90pct fatal even with first world medical intervention.
What I have read that they are separate species of ebolavirus, not strains.
A strain would be a modified species, such as if Zaire ebolavirus mutates with a stronger protein coat and can live for hours outside the host, then it would called Zaire ebolavirus xyz (xyz would be the name given to the strain, usually the discoverer or location 1st found). Genetically the strain matches the species but is different in that a couple genes may be expressed or not.
Flu is usually strains since it a the same species of the flu virus, just has different genes turned on, this is why some years of the flu outbreaks are worse than others. Think Darwinism.
Easiest way is to think of corn, Zea mays and all the different non GMO Hybrids that are available. Each non GMO plant is slightly different though inbred single cross breeding, but still will test as corn. GMO corn, each plant could be looked at a different species since genetic material has been added to the germ plasm to get the plant to have traits that would not occurred in corn no matter how you crossed it, such as herbicide resistant or producing Bt (rootworm control).
-
Easiest way is to think of corn, Zea mays and all the different non GMO Hybrids that are available. Each non GMO plant is slightly different though inbred single cross breeding, but still will test as corn. GMO corn, each plant could be looked at a different species since genetic material has been added to the germ plasm to get the plant to have traits that would not occurred in corn no matter how you crossed it, such as herbicide resistant or producing Bt (rootworm control).
Not to nitpick... but your definition of 'species' is muddled. Differential gene expression =/= different species.
But if a gmo corn is able to crossbreed with a non-gmo corn and produce fertile offspring, its still the same species, regardless of the other traits of the offspring.
-
Not to nitpick...
But if a gmo corn is able to crossbreed with a non-gmo corn and produce fertile offspring, its still the same species, regardless of the other traits of the offspring.
I said could be.
Also lions and tiger can bred and produce an offspring. They are separate species.
Also wolves and dogs/coyotes and dogs/wolves and coyotes can breed with each other, they are separate species.
Same with black bears and brown bears. Horses and donkeys.
-
Except ligers, and mules are almost always sterile.
The wolf/coyote/dog mixes are fertile, but they are still same genus (Canis) and the difference between lupines, domesticus and wilyus is very small, and not especially significant to breeding.
Not sure about brown/black bears, but polar bears are more like a breed of brown bear so they can interbreed same as German Shepherds and Chows.
-
I am reminded of the folks trying to hang the recent enterovirus outbreak on the "brown hordes" . When in fact it was identified in the 60's in California
Interestingly enough, authorities are refusing to identify the infected person's nationality or age. Hmmm . . . http://www.breitbart.com/system/wire/ap_0df7248061c142deaa3df064cb2e3263 (http://www.breitbart.com/system/wire/ap_0df7248061c142deaa3df064cb2e3263)
-
Interestingly enough, authorities are refusing to identify the infected person's nationality or age. Hmmm . . . http://www.breitbart.com/system/wire/ap_0df7248061c142deaa3df064cb2e3263 (http://www.breitbart.com/system/wire/ap_0df7248061c142deaa3df064cb2e3263)
They already let the cat out of the bag earlier in the week. Easy enough to read between the lines. Came from Liberia to visit family. Duh, he's Liberian. Age is irrelevant. Victim's identity being withheld isn't some great conspiracy....last thing that needs to happen is some paranoid nutters to firebomb the families house.
-
I said could be.
Also lions and tiger can bred and produce an offspring. They are separate species.
Also wolves and dogs/coyotes and dogs/wolves and coyotes can breed with each other, they are separate species.
Same with black bears and brown bears. Horses and donkeys.
Dogs and cats living together! Won't somebody please think of the children?!?!?!?!
Oh sorry, I got my panics mixed up. Carry on.
-
They already let the cat out of the bag earlier in the week. Easy enough to read between the lines. Came from Liberia to visit family. Duh, he's Liberian. Age is irrelevant. Victim's identity being withheld isn't some great conspiracy....last thing that needs to happen is some paranoid nutters to firebomb the families house.
Exactly, It's called HIPAA, they couldn't legally say anything about the U.S. Aid Doctor who was the first to be transported to Atlanta, even though everyone already knew who he was...
-
second case reported in texas
DALLAS — Due to close contact with a patient diagnosed with the Ebola virus, a second person is under the close monitoring of health officials as a possible second patient, said the director of Dallas County's health department Wednesday morning in an interview with WFAA.
-
second case reported in texas
DALLAS — Due to close contact with a patient diagnosed with the Ebola virus, a second person is under the close monitoring of health officials as a possible second patient, said the director of Dallas County's health department Wednesday morning in an interview with WFAA.
That's not a second case, that's a person who was potentially exposed being monitored. It may turn into a second case, but is not right now.
Looks like the ambulance crew who transported him has checked out clean, but are still under quarantine for 3 weeks.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/health/chi-ebola-in-america-20141001-story.html
-
So what are you going to do? Seal the your house with duct tape and refuse to come out?
Sealing off Dallas with a few million yards of plastic and duct tape sounds like a good start.
-
They already let the cat out of the bag earlier in the week. Easy enough to read between the lines. Came from Liberia to visit family. Duh, he's Liberian. Age is irrelevant. Victim's identity being withheld isn't some great conspiracy....last thing that needs to happen is some paranoid nutters to firebomb the families house.
Besides, that's government's job.
-
Besides, that's government's job.
Why, are they Christians who like guns? Fed.gov only burns white conservative Christians to death, they can't be raciss about that.
-
I am reminded of the folks trying to hang the recent enterovirus outbreak on the "brown hordes" . When in fact it was identified in the 60's in California
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
You left out the follow on sentence.
Compared with other enteroviruses, it has been rarely reported in the U.S. in the past 40 years.
Plus that there have been 472 cases in 41 states with 3 deaths. But we'll just leave out the facts that don't fit the narrative.
-
More details on that narrative
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6038a1.htm
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
And a slightly different narrative
http://www.nbcnews.com/health/cold-flu/afraid-ev-d68-another-deadly-virus-actually-killing-kids-u-n214116
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
We got West Nile and Chikungunya reported where I live, hasn't slowed life down yet.
Mmmmm... Chicken Gunya... [/Homer]
-
CS&D not sure what point you are trying to make, but the CDC reports 34 cases of HEV68 in 2009 and 5 in 2010. There have been 472 this years. I'd call that statically significant.
The thing is we don't have any population data on these patients (Simple things like Citizen or not) to draw any conclusions.
So what, exactly, is the point you that are trying to make?
-
Interestingly enough, authorities are refusing to identify the infected person's nationality or age. Hmmm . . . http://www.breitbart.com/system/wire/ap_0df7248061c142deaa3df064cb2e3263 (http://www.breitbart.com/system/wire/ap_0df7248061c142deaa3df064cb2e3263)
Britain's Daily Mail is more obliging:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2775608/CDC-confirms-Dallas-patient-isolation-testing-returning-region-plagued-Ebola-HAS-deadly-virus.html
The Ebola patient was named today as Thomas Eric Duncan, who had traveled to the U.S. from Liberia on September 20 to visit family
-
A lot of other forums are exploding with reports of facebook profiles belonging to people of that name. Especially in light of the witch hunting that has gone on in the past for people who are totally innocent but have the same name as a high profile criminal, I don't have an issue with the feds suppressing the victims identity. I pray no one with a name similar to mine ever gets an exotic illness or commits a serious crime, even though I try to keep my social media presence locked down as much as possible.
-
http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2014/10/cdc_dallas_ebola.php
Learn something new every day.
Today in multiple stories, our only and always comforting local daily, The Dallas Morning News, reiterates the official public line of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control: that physical contact with a person suffering symptoms of Ebola disease is the only mechanism of transmission by which the Ebola virus can infect a human being.
That's not untrue. But it falls short of the full truth.
A more careful look at the CDC's own pronouncements and at recent research in respected journals shows that "viable" (living) Ebola virus can survive for days on surfaces outside the body. And it shows that little is known about the ability of "environmental" (outside the body) Ebola virus to infect.
The Canadian bulletin is based in part on research published in 2010 in the Journal of Applied Microbiology, which found that Zaire Ebola virus, "can survive for long periods in different liquid media and can also be recovered from plastic and glass surfaces at low temperatures for over 3 weeks."
In Africa, there is little chance of the "cold" bit.
Another CDC bulletin, "Interim Guidance for Environmental Infection Control in Hospitals for Ebola Virus," says, "Ebola on dried on surfaces such as doorknobs and countertops can survive for several hours."
It's notable that the CDC's own protocols -- aggressive decontamination or incineration of materials that have come in contact with an infectious person -- seem to assume that a viable virus on fomites is a risk.
Hospitals are one thing. What about homes? A 2007 article in The Journals of Infectious Diseases concluded that disinfection protocols in dedicated hospital isolation wards probably kill off any virus that may have escaped to a surface, but the same article also said, "The risk from environmental contamination and fomites might vary in the household or other settings where decontamination would be less frequent and thorough, especially if linens or other household materials were to become visibly soiled by blood."
Ebola: Hothouse plant that dies off outside a greenhouse (human host)? Or more like kudzu?
Skinner: Well, I was wrong; the lizards are a godsend.
Lisa: But isn't that a bit short-sighted? What happens when we're overrun by lizards?
Skinner: No problem. We simply release wave after wave of Chinese needle snakes. They'll wipe out the lizards.
Lisa: But aren't the snakes even worse?
Skinner: Yes, but we're prepared for that. We've lined up a fabulous type of gorilla that thrives on snake meat.
Lisa: But then we're stuck with gorillas!
Skinner: No, that's the beautiful part. When wintertime rolls around, the gorillas simply freeze to death.
==================
And this:
Dallas ISD Puts Parents on High Alert for Ebola Symptoms as CDC Monitors Five Students
http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2014/10/dallas_isd_ebola.php
Early this morning, Dallas ISD received word from the Center for Disease Control that five district students have been exposed to the Ebola virus. The students attend Emmett Conrad High School, Sam Tasby Middle School, Dan Rogers Elementary, and Hotchkiss Elementary. Jack Lowe Elementary, which is located close to Tasby and Conrad High, is also being closely monitored.
The five students have been identified as within the patient's immediate family circle. They are being kept at home for the 21-day incubation cycle of the virus, but are not being quarantined. While CDC and local health officials are in close interaction with the families, they will be allowed to leave their homes until or if they exhibit symptoms.
That puts Mr Vibrant Ebola's residence in what is locally known as "The DMZ," a neighborhood chock full of third world immigrants near the local light rail station (W), the area's big indoor mall (Northpark, farther W), and a shopping complex with Sams, Walmart, JC Penny, and others(S). Across the highway (W) from the DMZ is some high-dollar neighborhoods. Mr Vibrant Ebola was taken to the nearest emergency room (N) on the north border of the DMZ.
The DMZ is referred to as "Vickery Meadow" in the article.
The schools are located in the Vickery Meadow neighborhood, an ethnically diverse area with a high immigrant population, including many immigrants and refugees from Africa. "We're going to reassure people face-to-face and in close proximity that they're okay. That's one of the best ways that you are going to be okay," Judge Clay Jenkins said. "People are from many different countries and speak 33 different languages, and many people are going to be very afraid."
"And, uh, we want to get eyes on as many folk as possible to see if they are symptomatic."
Map of the area:
http://goo.gl/maps/trmFt
Oh, and Presby Dallas is not the first place one thinks of in DFW when one thinks, "OMG, I think I am dying from tropical disease." They just got lucky to be so close, I guess.
-
Given that he was a Liberian visiting family, makes sense it hit in a heavily immigrant area. Given that African immigrants are not typically coming in on higher level visas to be well paid programmers or doctors, makes senses it's a poor neighborhood.
I wonder what the local cultural norms are? Lots of physical affections, close bond between families that results in lots of interactions? I think the potential to spread would be determined largely by factors such as those.
I hope none of those poor kids get sick.
-
That puts Mr Vibrant Ebola's residence in what is locally known as "The DMZ," a neighborhood chock full of third world immigrants near the local light rail station (W), the area's big indoor mall (Northpark, farther W), and a shopping complex with Sams, Walmart, JC Penny, and others(S). Across the highway (W) from the DMZ is some high-dollar neighborhoods. Mr Vibrant Ebola was taken to the nearest emergency room (N) on the north border of the DMZ.
You forgot the flagship Half Price Books a bit to the south, and some upper-middle-and-up neighborhoods along the White Rock Trail to the east. Lots of people go to and through that neighborhood for commerce, and it's a popular stop for downtown-to-points-north commuters both by US75 and the rail line so it would be a hell of a place for an outbreak.
Animal vectors would be another consideration; the restaurant up on Greenville near Pineland (? - place with a huge outdoor deck overlooking the creek) used to have amazingly large herds of raccoons chasing dropped food under the deck, and a lot of the area coons were pretty sociable, taking food from your hand or allowing themselves to be petted. Never heard of any scratch or bite issues, but if they could carry a virus, that's another possible way to get it beyond the initial hosts.
-
It was only a matter of time
http://bigamericannews.com/2014/09/30/africa-confirms-3rd-ebola-victim-rises-from-the-dead-releases-picture-of-first-ebola-zombie-captured/
-
Timeline of Mr Vibrant Ebola / Thomas Eric Duncan from when he left Monrovia, Liberia up to now and some associated issues.
Ebola in Dallas: What We Know So Far
http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2014/10/ebola_in_dallas_what_we_know_so_far.php
September 20: Liberian national Thomas Eric Duncan arrives in Dallas from Monrovia, Liberia via Brussels. Duncan made an intervening stop at Dulles International Airport near Washington D.C..
There is more...
Suspected location of Duncan's residence:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ivy+Apartments/@32.8767762,-96.7513841,15z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x864e9ff32259865f:0x5c045cc13ee77325
-
At the State Fair of Texas, Big Tex is sporting the latest fashions.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/By5OEwWCIAE5fer.jpg:large)
Given Big Tex's recent brush with death, who can blame the guy?
-
Possible case reported in Hawaii. Yet no test administered yet? Is there a reason why?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Possible case reported in Hawaii. Yet no test administered yet? Is there a reason why?
My assumption would be that it's sort of like those times when I know my account might be overdrawn, so I put off looking at the actual balance as long as possible. As long as the test hasn't been done, they can still say it's unconfirmed.
-
I am hoping that it's one of those deals where they can't test till you reach a certain level of infection or symptoms. It's hard because so many of the early symptoms are similar to flu early on
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
On the bad side, the dude was puking on the street before he went to the hospital. On the good side, still no (reported) cases among the people thought to be in contact with him.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/01/us-health-ebola-usa-idUSKCN0HP2F720141001
-
Interesting interview with the guy who discovered Ebola. I thought it especially relevant as he echoes a number of the things we've been discussing here: this round is different than previous outbreaks, the risk in 1st world countries is low, in Nigerian slums it's very dangerous, if it gets to India they're screwed.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/interview-with-peter-piot-discoverer-of-the-ebola-virus-a-993111.html
-
Yeah, if ebola gets to India they're all gonna be having a bad day.
http://www.vocativ.com/culture/photos/photos-of-the-dead-in-varanasi-where-the-wealthy-are-cremated-and-the-poor-are-left-to-the-vultures/?PageSpeed=noscript
-
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/1907846_306441472872498_955558146863850775_n.jpg?oh=3eec85b642343f9038d9dca5874dd7ec&oe=54BED8E8&__gda__=1422311189_ff8284f7a7522cafdf272392c81fc337)
-
Farrakhan is adding a calm, rational voice to the discussion as he always does.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/10/02/farrakhan-claims-ebola-invented-to-kill-off-blacks/
-
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/10/02/farrakhan-claims-ebola-invented-to-kill-off-blacks/
Well, that explains why the white doctor pulled through; they must have just given him a spoonful of mayo and dressed him in polo shirts until his whiteness had fully reasserted itself and sent the virus out to look for some fried chicken and watermelon.
-
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi131.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fp311%2Fanundrr%2FEeuOcOT_zpsa46c86ff.jpg&hash=eb36026862b27e8fdbc6533abfca96b19f344afd) (http://s131.photobucket.com/user/anundrr/media/EeuOcOT_zpsa46c86ff.jpg.html)
-
Well, that explains why the white doctor pulled through; they must have just given him a spoonful of mayo and dressed him in polo shirts until his whiteness had fully reasserted itself and sent the virus out to look for some fried chicken and watermelon.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
That has to be about the funniest thing I have ever seen on APS.
Side note, I had better stay away from soul food until this is over, or I might get the Ebola
-
Farrakhan is adding a calm, rational voice to the discussion as he always does.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/10/02/farrakhan-claims-ebola-invented-to-kill-off-blacks/
He simply could have quoted Dr. Cyril Broderick, (Tenured) Assistant Prof. of Plant Pathology at Delaware State University.
http://www.liberianobserver.com/security/ebola-aids-manufactured-western-pharmaceuticals-us-dod
TL;DR: What the Atlanta Journal-Constitution says about the letter sums things up nicely: http://newstome.blog.ajc.com/2014/09/30/professor-says-u-s-military-created-ebola/
-
I'm screwed. I LOVE fried chicken and watermelon. And I ate chicken & waffles the other day.
Deuce Bigalow [Rob Schneider]: T.J., I'm so glad you are here.
T.J. Hicks [Eddie Griffin]: How did you find me?
Deuce Bigalow: Well, this seemed like the only chicken and waffles place in all of Holland.
T.J. Hicks: Ohhh, so the black guy has to go to a chicken and waffles place, that's Racist!
Deuce Bigalow: But you're here.
T.J. Hicks: Yeah, but figuring it out was racist.
Heck, I am even in a mentoring program to teach me rhythm how to properly cook ribs over a wood fire.
-
Nigeria’s Actions Seem to Contain Ebola Outbreak (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/01/health/ebola-outbreak-in-nigeria-appears-to-be-over.html)
West Africa: Ebola Outbreak Nears Possible End in Nigeria, Senegal (http://allafrica.com/stories/201410021550.html)
-
Meanwhile potentially around 100 people may have come in contact with this gentleman while he was contagious.
I'm sure all these links to how 'it can't happen here' and how 'we are so much better prepared' are very comforting to those now staring at the specter of having contracted Ebola.
:facepalm: read about the comedy of errors played out by and in the first world...
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/03/us/dallas-ebola-case-thomas-duncan-contacts.html
Not advancing to a pandemic is cold comfort to those who may eventually end up with the disease here stateside.
-
https://twitter.com/wfaachannel8/status/517739906211528704
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/By9hssLCcAAHt0v.png)
http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/196033/
UM, CALL ME CRAZY, BUT cleaning up Ebola vomit with a pressure washer seems like a lousy idea, with droplets blown into air and such. Note the absence of protective gear. Note woman in sandals standing next to runoff. Maybe they’d hosed everything down with bleach first. Somebody please tell me this isn’t as bad as it looks. . . .
No worries, Mr Reynolds. In the night, a pack of coyotes licked most of it up and then they retired to the creek bed to the south to roam all over the north texas river waterways (AKA "Critter Highways").
-
Paragraph 14
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/dallas-er-ebola-infected-patient-home-25908233
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Paragraph 14
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/dallas-er-ebola-infected-patient-home-25908233
Under armed guard, no less.
-
Under armed guard, no less.
Remember the whole swine flu scare back in what, oh, 2009? One of the guys I used to work with was one of the people who brought it to the US from Mexico- he had gone there on a spring break class trip and when they returned, several students were were sick. They were quarantined to their property by DHEC until it was confirmed that they were not a hazard. It's not often that you hear of a forcible quarantine in the US at least, but it does happen...
-
Well, now it's come down to this:
http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/568394/20141002/hajj-pilgrims-ebola-saudi-arabia-mecca-liberia.htm
Saudi Arabia has announced it will be rejecting pilgrims from Ebola-stricken nations who want to observe the annual Hajj in Mecca. This is to reduce risks of the virus getting into the Muslim country.
According to The Guardian, Adel al-Faqih, Saudi health minister, said measures have been put into place to bar Muslim brothers from Liberia, Sierra Leone and Guinea to enter Saudi Arabia. ....
So far, no diagnosed case of Ebola has been seen among the pilgrims who are already within Saudi Arabia for the Hajj 2014. Medical personnel has been deployed in airports to continuously monitor the influx of travellers.
The decision to bar pilgrims from Sierra Leone, Guinea and Liberia has been coordinated with their respective governments. Visas to pilgrims from those countries will not be entertained, the Saudi government said, according to the same report.
The pilgrimage is highly regarded as mandatory duty for all Muslims to fulfill.
So does this have any effect on the faithful's ability to enter paradise? Can they do an on-line virtual pilgrimage that will counts just as much as the real thing?
I'm all OK with the public health management part of the travel ban, but that evil part of my mind really, really wants to see this blow up into a Sunni/Shia fracas.
stay safe.
-
As I understand it the requirement is to make the Hajj if they are able to. In this case, Muslims in Liberia, et all, are not able the make the trip. So, for now, they get a pass from Allah on the requirement.
-
Given the close quarters and poor sanitation associated with the Hajj, ebola getting loose among the pilgrims would be a significant deal.
-
The reason Ebola Guy's apartment has armed LEOs outside and a court order for Ebola Guy's family not to leave the apartment is because Wednesday EG's peeps interpreted "quarantine" and "do not leave your apartment" as "send your kids to public school."
In this case, America is not a first world country dealing with ebola.
1. The outbreak took place in an enclave of third world immigrants.
2. The cleanup has been undertaken by third world (likely) illegal immigrants armed with pressure washers.
And the county, city, and school district gov'ts are half way to "Detroit" status. Too much of America is trending third world. We'll know how a first world outbreak occurs when it hits Bismarck, SD.
-
At least two third-world countries have already contained the virus.
-
Here's another one. Maybe. http://time.com/3461573/ebola-washington-dc/
-
At least two third-world countries have already contained the virus.
Using measures that wouldn't work very well here; how long, and how effectively do you think we could keep up the necessary level of travel restrictions and quarantines?
-
This is what is scaring me -
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/delay-in-dallas-ebola-cleanup-as-workers-balk-at-task/ar-BB7aQWt (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/delay-in-dallas-ebola-cleanup-as-workers-balk-at-task/ar-BB7aQWt)
"...the sheets and dirty towels he used while sick remained in the home."
"The officials said it had been difficult to find a contractor willing to enter the apartment to clean it and remove bedding and clothes, which they said had been bagged in plastic."
Holy crap! If it was me, the sheets and towels would have long since been subjected to boiling water and about a gallon of bleach! Why are these people waiting around for a "contractor" to come in and clean up? Seriously. Put on some gloves and get to work! I sure as hell wouldn't be waiting around for "a contractor."
- Andrea
-
I'm quite frankly shocked that the fed.gov isn't handling it themselves. Waiting for a contractor to clean up the mess? Just seems so odd.
My solution? Dumpster placed just outside the apartment. Throw the things in the dumpster. Drag it to the nearest open area. Hazmat crew pours gasoline in, and burns it all.
-
Holy crap! If it was me, the sheets and towels would have long since been subjected to boiling water and about a gallon of bleach! Why are these people waiting around for a "contractor" to come in and clean up? Seriously. Put on some gloves and get to work! I sure as hell wouldn't be waiting around for "a contractor."
Bleach in cold water. Boiling water for the rinse after the bleach has worked itself out.
Bleach in hot water on thick bio-goo will only sterilize the outer layer before it starts losing potency.
Anybody know how much they're offering on this contract? Might be worth the drive.
My solution? Dumpster placed just outside the apartment. Throw the things in the dumpster. Drag it to the nearest open area. Hazmat crew pours gasoline in, and burns it all.
Nah, just lay it all out on the sidewalk and hose it off. It can join up with the vomit and pressure washer runoff in the storm drains that lead to White Rock Creek, then to WR Lake, then to the Trinity River, and on down to Galveston Bay.
-
Vaccine shipments being delayed by bureaucracy (http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/ebola-vaccine-for-west-africa-still-in-canada-6-weeks-after-it-was-promised-1.2776627)
All we really need to do now is to vaccinate people faster than the rate of new infections.
Soon the struggle will be between the virus' ability to spread, and Western Civilization's ability to mass-produce.
Do you think that they're delaying the vaccine shipments to give ebola a fair fight?
-
At least two third-world countries have already contained the virus.
They are not handicapped by PC bullshinola.
-
Are you seriously arguing that Nigeria and Senegal have better-organized health and emergency response systems than the United States of America?
-
Are you seriously arguing that Nigeria and Senegal have better-organized health and emergency response systems than the United States of America?
In regards to containing the spread of this one disease? Yes. (That may have something to do with their military having both the experience and willingness to shoot civilians who will not obey containment/isolation orders.)
Maybe not so much in treatment of this one disease. But then our system also seems to be based on isolation, and then waiting it out to see if the patient recovers or not. Yes, two folks got unobtanium-grade experimental vaccines that may or may not have had any impact on their survival, but Nigeria and Senegal have used witch doctors which may be just as effective as the vaccines.
stay safe.
-
I'm going to be bold and assert that The Western World (TM) will have totally defeated, and contained, Ebola both within "Western" countries and in Africa, within a year at the most.
Casualties in the US will be under 100-200 men, excluding people who will travel to the actual countries the disease is widespread to treat it.
-
In regards to containing the spread of this one disease? Yes. (That may have something to do with their military having both the experience and willingness to shoot civilians who will not obey containment/isolation orders.)
Not to mention that the vast majority of their people don't own a means of travelling a thousand miles in a day, nor could they do so without crossing international borders. Even from north central Texas, I can hop in my car and be in any of four other states before I have to sleep. There are no preexisting roadblock/checkpoints along any of those routes, and even if there were, the number of backroads bypassing the main routes would make it well nigh impossible to stop vehicle traffic short of using aircraft to attack any vehicle crossing whatever demarcations you're using.
-
So you're actually arguing that abject poverty and tyranny are actually an advantage in terms of stopping contagious disease?
-
Ebola Stabilizing in Liberia, Doomsday Forecasts Wrong - President (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/02/us-health-ebola-liberia-idUSKCN0HR0Z420141002)
-
So you're actually arguing that abject poverty and tyranny are actually an advantage in terms of stopping contagious disease?
In the form of slow, difficult, carefully regulated travel, and damn few reasons to travel even if you could, (not like they're going to go spend a weekend in their timeshare at the Hamptons or hang out at Disneyland) absolutely.
-
In the form of slow, difficult, carefully regulated travel, and damn few reasons to travel even if you could, (not like they're going to go spend a weekend in their timeshare at the Hamptons or hang out at Disneyland) absolutely.
Also the local gov't gun-toters are unhampered by PC. Thus they can close borders, close off towns/neighborhoods, impose curfews, atc.
-
In the form of slow, difficult, carefully regulated travel, and damn few reasons to travel even if you could, (not like they're going to go spend a weekend in their timeshare at the Hamptons or hang out at Disneyland) absolutely.
There's a very good reason to travel if you live in Ebola Land.
-
Hazmat ??? crew arrives to take away bagged linens & clean apartment
http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/health/277982741.html
Check out the pictures. The personal protective gear must have been specially designed so as to not cause a panic among the public.
Moar betterer picture at http://abcnews.go.com/Health/meet-crew-charge-cleaning-ebola-patients-apartment/story?id=25942099
When I first saw the pictures I actually said "Whut da ...." out loud.
Compare that to this woman who cared for her ebola-stricken family by herself - and managed to save two out of three of them.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/25/health/ebola-fatu-family/index.html
Now tell me who has the better handle on dealing with ebola.
stay safe.
-
There's a very good reason to travel if you live in Ebola Land.
There are also very good reasons for the folks in Ebola Land, as well as everybody in Not Ebola Land, to prevent you from traveling.
Among other things (which has nothing to do with why travel should be restricted) is the fact that getting essential supplies (food, water, source of heat for cooking) is actually easier in Ebola Land than it would be in the First World. Stay home, stay away from people, and in 21-45 days it might be safe(r) to come out of your house again.
stay safe.
-
We don't have to get ebola here. It doesn't spread worth crap, but panic does. I'm guessing DC/Metro area just made a run on Trader Joe's. Any random sniffle will be hereafter regarded as the fifth sparkly pony of the apocalypse.
-
We don't have to get ebola here. It doesn't spread worth crap, but panic does. I'm guessing DC/Metro area just made a run on Trader Joe's. Any random sniffle will be hereafter regarded as the fifth sparkly pony of the apocalypse.
Yup.
Also, this is the worst partisan hack job I have ever seen. Just... astounding. http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/the-nra-making-the-ebola-crisis-worse
-
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/texas-hospital-blames-records-flaw-reason-ebola-patient/story?id=25912405
It is all the fault of the hospital's electronic medical record. The travel history taken by the ER nurse was not seen by the physician.
The hospital said in a statement today that the physician and the nurses followed protocol, but his travel history didn't automatically appear in the physician's standard workflow.
"The documentation of the travel history was located in the nursing workflow portion of the EHR, and was designed to provide a high reliability nursing process to allow for the administration of influenza vaccine under a physician-delegated standing order," read the statement. "As designed, the travel history would not automatically appear in the physician’s standard workflow."
The hospital said it has since relocated the travel history documentation so that it is part of both workflows.
"We have made this change to increase the visibility and documentation of the travel question in order to alert all providers," read the statement. "We feel that this change will improve the early identification of patients who may be at risk for communicable diseases, including Ebola."
As we say in the biz, oops!
-
It is all the fault of the hospital's electronic medical record. The travel history taken by the ER nurse was not seen by the physician.
Seems to me some things should pop an alert in every screen. Recent presence in a hot zone would be high on that list.
-
How about ACTUALLY TELLING EVERYONE, YOU KNOW. .. LIKE "VERBALLY"?
:facepalm:
-
Read today that folks he worked with claim he knew he was sick and thats why he headed to the us. If true thats a game changer or at least should be.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
-
Yup.
Also, this is the worst partisan hack job I have ever seen. Just... astounding. http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/the-nra-making-the-ebola-crisis-worse
Wow. But not surprising given the lead author of the article. She is a nutball.
-
(https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10646967_937842679570077_8201324849863297056_n.jpg?oh=e8972d7203ded6e8347a6486929effa2&oe=54CCFE61)
-
Call and raise:
-
(https://westernrifleshooters.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/pressure-wash-2.jpg)
-
(https://westernrifleshooters.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/pressure-wash-2.jpg)
Runoff -> storm drain -> White Rock Creek
About 2mi downstream is where a lot of folks like to fish for carp and catfish too.
-
Runoff -> storm drain -> White Rock Creek
About 2mi downstream is where a lot of folks like to fish for carp and catfish too.
and you'd have better odds of winning the powerball over getting Ebola that way. :facepalm:
-
And that was them power washing the whole complex. 4 days later. What's the survival time for a virus? In the sun?
It did get the helicopter crew some zomg cred though
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Problem with all the focus on this one case is simple- it is one case. I am not impressed with the handling of it.
As of right now, the best survival strategy for any ebola infected African is get themselves into the US by any means possible.
Whether or not this disease proves to be a flash in the pan or a world wide pandemic remains to be seen- but the possibility is not zero that a catastrophe could occur.
I will wait six months and see- by then, we will know.
-
A lot of what I'm reading here sounds like whistling past the grave yard.
Like the Obama administration they are sooo sure.
Strike one just occurred in Texas; multiple breakdowns in the system. Nothing so far that has happened inspires confidence.
I hope the doomsayers are wrong and the Pollyannas are right.
Right now, personally, I'm skeptical and pessimistic.
-
and you'd have better odds of winning the powerball over getting Ebola that way. :facepalm:
Yeah the real danger is pressurewasher guy and bystanders getting virus blasted onto them or inhaling it after it aerosolizes from hitting it with a high pressure water jet.
-
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2014/10/04/health-officials-watching-49-for-ebola-in-dallas-patient-at-howard-university-hospital-in-washington-does-not-have-the-disease/
One down
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
2 down
http://khon2.com/2014/10/01/patient-in-isolation-in-honolulu-hospital-officials-say-ebola-a-possibility/
And then there is this
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/05/us-health-ebola-usa-patient-idUSKCN0HT0MZ20141005
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
As to the guy in Texas if in fact he came here knowing he was sick I'd favor a quick trial and capital punishment if he makes it. To discourage the others. Make it less popular an idea. I think of that kinda response as " Chinese style"
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Yeah the real danger is pressurewasher guy and bystanders getting virus blasted onto them or inhaling it after it aerosolizes from hitting it with a high pressure water jet.
One would hope that the pressure washer had antiviral mixed with the stream, but risk is still pretty low with Ebola. Really not a tough virus outside of bodily fluids, which is a good thing.
-
As to the guy in Texas if in fact he came here knowing he was sick I'd favor a quick trial and capital punishment if he makes it. To discourage the others. Make it less popular an idea. I think of that kinda response as " Chinese style"
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Send him home. High altitude repatriation. Fly over at 30,000 ft and drop him out.
-
Charge him full cash price for his medical care. Since he probably doesn't have it, deduct the cash amount from the money we undoubtedly give Liberia in Aid. (We spent in on aiding their citizen after all). Fly him to the Liberian Embassy, and drop him off with the bill and explanation.
That way the hospital gets paid, it's a zero sum game for the US taxpayers, and Liberia can decide if this kind of subcontracting is worth the cash cost.
-
I like that though the precedent is tricky
-
The way I see it working out is that since the Liberian gov plans to prosecute him when he gets back he claims racial persecution and Obama gives him political asylum. :facepalm:
-
From the sounds of things all of the talk of sending him back, prosecuting him, etc will bee a moot point in a few days or so. They can send his ashes home though. Which brings up another issue, do we burn them whole or do some sort of body prep, and who will be doing it?
bob
-
Since I don't have TV, can someone let me know if this has become a ghoulish sideshow with the reporters breathless in anticipation of his death so that they can ratchet up the fear even more?
-
^^^
Not so much nationally that I have seen, but I don't watch a lot of news.
I do have a nurse friend who works the ER where this guy is at, and was working the second time he came in, and this is what she has to say;
I don't know how much media coverage y'all are getting from here but our local news stations have been ridiculous! The level of fear that they have helped to create is exhausting!
So true to form the media, at least locally, is helping fan the flames of fear in order to keep their ratings up, I would guess.
bob
-
Dallas Weekly Wins Most Poorly Timed Cover Of Year
http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/dallas-weekly-wins-most-poorly-timed-cover-year
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzDKqmTCQAE8qNL.jpg:large)
"Pardon me, I'd prefer not to partake."
-
^^^ I just about snorted a big swig of Elysian 'Night Owl' beer all over the screen upon reading this. :laugh:
-
^^^ I just about snorted a big swig of Elysian 'Night Owl' beer all over the screen upon reading this. :laugh:
My wife loves pumpkin beer, she's always excited for this time of year. Do you prefer Night Owl or Dark of the Moon?
-
My wife loves pumpkin beer, she's always excited for this time of year. Do you prefer Night Owl or Dark of the Moon?
I prefer Night Owl since it has a much more pronounced pumpkin and spice flavor than does Dark of the Moon. I have tried several pumpkin stouts and I think the style does not lend itself well to other flavors. With the exception being I have had some very good coffee stouts, which I see as a complementary flavor to the dark stout malts.
-
this is the sort of report that concerns me-
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_SPAIN_EBOLA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-10-06-14-41-22
A nurse, who was knowingly treating an ebola patient in a first world hospital has been infected. (headline says "suspected". text body says it was confirmed with two tests) One could make a case that all the medical personnel infected in Africa were due to poor local protocols, substandard equipment, being over-whelmed with a flood of patients, etc- but how does a nurse in Spain, treating a single, known infectious patient, come down with it? It suggests either very poor procedures, or a virus that is a lot more infectious than we have been told. Of course, the end result is the same.
-
this is the sort of report that concerns me-
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_SPAIN_EBOLA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-10-06-14-41-22
A nurse, who was knowingly treating an ebola patient in a first world hospital has been infected. (headline says "suspected". text body says it was confirmed with two tests) One could make a case that all the medical personnel infected in Africa were due to poor local protocols, substandard equipment, being over-whelmed with a flood of patients, etc- but how does a nurse in Spain, treating a single, known infectious patient, come down with it? It suggests either very poor procedures, or a virus that is a lot more infectious than we have been told. Of course, the end result is the same.
I've gotten MRSA twice from US hospitals. I'm going with very poor procedures. If it was actually airborne, highly transmissable etc it would've killed a LOT more than the <4000 people it has so far. Nothing says it will never be a danger, but as it stands it can't even cause a decent epidemic in countries where people prefer witch doctors to Western doctors and hand washing the corpse of the ebola victim (but never washing your hands) are the norm.
-
Hospitals are dangerous places. =)
-
Hospitals are dangerous places. =)
All those darn sick people. :O =D
-
People die in hospitals all the time, and the longer you stay the more likely it is to happen. We don't kick you out just because, we know the hospital is a bad place.
bob
-
Many of the nurses and docs I've observed in hospitals have been scarily sloppy...no wonder MRSA is persistent in our hospitals.
-
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.googlepixel.com%2Fimages%2Febolasnack.jpg&hash=ef435fe573b2ba0b073f0036f313e24cc3544bd6)
-
Jesus christ Harold WHAT THE *expletive deleted*ck
-
Kill it, kill it with fire. >:D then eat it? ???
-
Bush meat. Needs garlic.
-
Apparently the spanish nurse has died. I got this wrong- she is in hospital under care)She went on vacation after the priest she was caring for died. 10 days later she checked into a hospital with a fever. That was Sunday.
The next two weeks are going to be very informative.
-
Yes they will be
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.googlepixel.com%2Fimages%2Fteetimeforobama.jpg&hash=3e994f9a41bf0191ce97224f240987dd3af8f9b6)
-
No worries, Mr Reynolds. In the night, a pack of coyotes licked most of it up and then they retired to the creek bed to the south to roam all over the north texas river waterways (AKA "Critter Highways").
Here's a cheerful thought to go with that:
http://www.alloutdoor.com/2014/10/02/ebola-fido/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=2014-10-07&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter#sthash.XMvltUwv.dpuf
-
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.googlepixel.com%2Fimages%2Fteetimeforobama.jpg&hash=3e994f9a41bf0191ce97224f240987dd3af8f9b6)
Harold, that is pure gold. Thank you. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
-
Interesting reading.
http://www.usamriid.army.mil/education/bluebookpdf/USAMRIID%20BlueBook%207th%20Edition%20-%20Sep%202011.pdf
-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2782694/Ebola-victim-s-stepdaughter-took-hospital-vomiting-wildly-given-clear-return-work-nursing-assitant.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2782694/Ebola-victim-s-stepdaughter-took-hospital-vomiting-wildly-given-clear-return-work-nursing-assitant.html)
The stepdaughter of Texas Ebola victim, Thomas Duncan, who called 911 and rode in the ambulance with the man she calls ‘Daddy’ has been told she can return to work, MailOnline can reveal. Nursing assistant Youngor Jallah, 35, has been in 'quarantine' in her small Dallas apartment along with her husband, Aaron Yah, 43, and their four children ages 2 to 11 since Thomas Duncan's devastating diagnosis last Monday. MailOnline has reported that Mr Yah, also a nursing assistant, had been told he could return to work at the end of last week. Ms Jallah whose contact with Mr Duncan - who remains in a critical condition - was far more intimate and prolonged than that of her husband, told MailOnline on Monday: 'The CDC came yesterday. They said I can go back to work but I do not know what I will do. I will not go back yet.'
-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2782694/Ebola-victim-s-stepdaughter-took-hospital-vomiting-wildly-given-clear-return-work-nursing-assitant.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2782694/Ebola-victim-s-stepdaughter-took-hospital-vomiting-wildly-given-clear-return-work-nursing-assitant.html)
Errr... One week? Isn't the incubation period 21 days? I hope that is just a case of bad reporting.
-
They can test before visible symptoms
http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/diagnosis/
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Looks like their being nursing assistants they had an idea of what was going on and used good practices in protecting themselves.
-
Ms Jallah whose contact with Mr Duncan - who remains in a critical condition - was far more intimate and prolonged than that of her husband, told MailOnline on Monday: 'The CDC came yesterday. They said I can go back to work but I do not know what I will do. I will not go back yet.'
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2782694/Ebola-victim-s-stepdaughter-took-hospital-vomiting-wildly-given-clear-return-work-nursing-assitant.html
She sounds like the only smart person involved.
-
The Spanish government got a court order to euthanize the Ebola infected nurse's dog. Have there been reported cases in dogs in Africa or anywhere? There doesn't seem to be any indication that the dog is showing symptoms - more of a "scorched Earth" policy.
http://twitchy.com/2014/10/08/summary-ebola-is-really-really-hard-to-catch-but-lets-kill-this-spanish-nurses-dog-just-to-be-safe/
-
The Spanish government got a court order to euthanize the Ebola infected nurse's dog. Have there been reported cases in dogs in Africa or anywhere? There doesn't seem to be any indication that the dog is showing symptoms - more of a "scorched Earth" policy.
http://twitchy.com/2014/10/08/summary-ebola-is-really-really-hard-to-catch-but-lets-kill-this-spanish-nurses-dog-just-to-be-safe/
Dogs can carry it without symptoms.
http://www.alloutdoor.com/2014/10/02/ebola-fido/
-
Looks like Dallas patient just died.
-
^^^ Yep, I was just coming to post this. Died at 0751 Dallas time.
-
http://news.yahoo.com/ebola-patient-thomas-eric-duncan-dies-at-dallas-hospital-201613535.html IN the nooz now. I hope they plaster that all over the Liberian news papers.
-
So if Ebola is found in one person in your current city and your boss is requiring you to go to work or lose you job, what will you do?
Whatever he does. If Bossman stays home from the plague, I stay home.
-
Oh boy. This is not good. I hope they are wrong.
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/?lead=frisco-patient-exhibiting-ebola-symptoms
-
It was essentially impossible there would be no other cases. Until the number is high double or low triple digits, and getting transmitted through casual contact then it's not likely to be a significant problem.
-
Oh boy. This is not good. I hope they are wrong.
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/?lead=frisco-patient-exhibiting-ebola-symptoms
Hopefully it's a false alarm
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Hopefully it's a false alarm
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Most have been.
-
Amen to that too. And I am ok with error on the side of caution
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Oh boy. This is not good. I hope they are wrong.
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/?lead=frisco-patient-exhibiting-ebola-symptoms
The Apocalypse Masturbators over at ZeroHedge are going nuts.
It was essentially impossible there would be no other cases. Until the number is high double or low triple digits, and getting transmitted through casual contact then it's not likely to be a significant problem.
Pretty much this.
-
Amen to that too. And I am ok with error on the side of caution
Sgt Monning's son, Logan Monning, told CBS that his father had woken up with 'stomach issues' and had gone to the clinic as a precaution.
Logan said their family had been told that their father was at no risk of the virus, as he had only been in the apartment for 30 minutes and had not come in contact with bodily fluids.
Go into a room where someone has been spewing from both ends for a couple days, and try to stand there for 30 minutes without touching anything their bodily fluids might have gotten on. Unless you're standing in the middle of the room with your hands in your pockets, it's going to be a bit difficult. (Don't forget that most people handle their shoes when taking them off or putting them on.)
-
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/remains-ebola-victim-thomas-eric-duncan-handled/story?id=26048687
A protocol for handling the body of someone dead from Ebola. Not that different than handling the body of someone who has died from other particularly virulent diseases. Some years back, as part of the county emergency planning body, we had a lecture from an official of DMORT, the disaster mortuary people who are part of the Fed response to mass disasters. The plans they had for handling mass casualties were really interesting, ranging from the conventional funeral home burial/cremation to essentially digging a trench and doing a mass cremation or burial of bodies. That last one was pretty much reserved for a nuclear war or having to eradicate a widespread animal disease outbreak.
-
Slight tangent, but some interesting photos and text relating to how people dealt with the Spanish flu:
http://mashable.com/2014/10/08/influenza-epidemic-1918/
-
My grandpa was born in 1903. I remember him talking about it and the friends and family that went through it, both the ones that survived and the ones that didn't. The little country cemetery where most of my family winds up dates to the the 1860s and has quite a few Graves of young people that died in 1918-19 time frame. Several were confirmed to me by older relatives to have died from the Spanish flu.
-
Oh boy. This is not good. I hope they are wrong.
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/?lead=frisco-patient-exhibiting-ebola-symptoms
Texas health officials say the deputy is not at risk for ebola:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/08/health/ebola-up-to-speed/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
I'm hoping they're right.
-
http://claytonecramer.blogspot.com/2014/10/why-i-am-less-fearful-about-ebola-than.html (http://claytonecramer.blogspot.com/2014/10/why-i-am-less-fearful-about-ebola-than.html)
Ebola is a hemorrhagic fever. It turns that mant Americans (at least those of European ancestry) are likely immune to it, because so many of us have the CCR5-delta 32 mutation, which protects from HIV and hemorhhagic fevers (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050325234239.htm). Even if it were to break into the general population, the net effect would be to disproportionately kill the poorest and most reliably Democratic voters. Since many Americans have already been exposed to HIV (especially in the 1980s through blood transfusions) without developing AIDS, my guess is that the risks of getting Ebola are relatvely lower than for the unlucky people of West Africa. Our ancestors in Europe paid the price during the Black Death, thank them for their sacrifice.
-
While I have no particular worry about getting Ebola I have less than zero trust of what our government tells me. The stronger and more vehemently the tell me there is nothing to worry about the more concerned I get.
I'm actually a little more concerned about the EV-D68 virus and the "mystery" virus that may or may not be EV-68D that is causing the polio like symptoms. And of course it has nothing to do with the thousands of unscreened central American illegal I migrant children that were dispersed across the country.
-
Seriously, Wtf?
I'm starting to doubt the coincidences happening g around the worldhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2014/10/06/what-is-marburg-the-ebola-like-virus-that-killed-a-health-care-worker-in-uganda/
-
http://claytonecramer.blogspot.com/2014/10/why-i-am-less-fearful-about-ebola-than.html (http://claytonecramer.blogspot.com/2014/10/why-i-am-less-fearful-about-ebola-than.html)
That made my head hurt reading that blog.
Then I had to go see what this CCR5-delta 32 mutation is, looks like only 4-16% of European dissent people have it, and probably was expressed by the small pox virus, not bubonic plague which is caused by a bacteria. Long story short, if you have that mutation it has a negative effect on T cells which small pox and HIV virus attach to. How I understand it the mutation interferes with those viruses making them unable to bind to the T cells and cause the infection. Infection cause immune system suppression.
Ebola how I understand enters the cell wall, enters the membrane and starts to reproduce. As the virus replicates it releases inflammatory compounds which eventually leads the hemorrhaging if the immune system isn't able to control it. Also has a behavior/chemical that confuses the immune system which is why hemorrhaging happens. Nothing to do with T cells here, so I'm calling BS on the blog posted.
-
Seriously, Wtf?
I'm starting to doubt the coincidences happening g around the worldhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2014/10/06/what-is-marburg-the-ebola-like-virus-that-killed-a-health-care-worker-in-uganda/
Malburgvirus and Ebolavirus are like 1st cousins. Both are members of the Filoviridae family along with proposed Cuevavirus genus.
-
Ebola how I understand enters the cell wall, enters the membrane and starts to reproduce. As the virus replicates it releases inflammatory compounds which eventually leads the hemorrhaging if the immune system isn't able to control it. Also has a behavior/chemical that confuses the immune system which is why hemorrhaging happens. Nothing to do with T cells here, so I'm calling BS on the blog posted.
So... if you think you got The Obola, you should get good and drunk and stay that way until it has run it's course, so as to suppress your immune response. (reduce inflammation before it leads to hemorrhaging, blood pressure crash, and sepsis)
I'm kinda almost serious.
-
That made my head hurt reading that blog.
Clayton Cramer had a stroke recently. You can tell.
-
So... if you think you got The Obola, you should get good and drunk and stay that way until it has run it's course, so as to suppress your immune response. (reduce inflammation before it leads to hemorrhaging, blood pressure crash, and sepsis)
I'm kinda almost serious.
Dehydration from drinking will probably outweigh the antimicrobial properties of the alcohol, but if you are going to die, why not die drunk and happy?
Actually people will high cholesterol might be a little better off if infected with ebola than the low cholesterol crowd since Ebolavirus uses a cholesterol transporter protein to enter the cell. So don't get drunk, eat lots of bacon!
-
Dehydration from drinking will probably outweigh the antimicrobial properties of the alcohol, but if you are going to die, why not die drunk and happy?
Actually people will high cholesterol might be a little better off if infected with ebola than the low cholesterol crowd since Ebolavirus uses a cholesterol transporter protein to enter the cell. So don't get drunk, eat lots of bacon!
I'll do both just to cover all hte bases.
-
I'll do both just to cover all hte bases.
Alcohol in moderation can help with high cholesterol, so toss moderation out the window. :rofl:
-
I think I'll have a bacon/vodka fest this weekend- just as a prophylactic measure.
-
I think I'll have a bacon/vodka fest this weekend- just as a prophylactic measure.
Consume enough of either and they'll work as a prophylactic, sure enough.
-
I think I'll have a bacon/vodka fest this weekend- just as a prophylactic measure.
Betty Crocker to the rescue!
http://www.bettycrocker.com/recipes/smoky-bacon-bloody-mary/d4817f08-6591-439f-b5f9-bf779a0c8d8e
-
^^^That looks pretty good. I have seen, but never bought, the bacon flavored vodka, but maybe I should give it a try.
-
http://raconteurreport.blogspot.com/2014/10/dear-70-iq-meatpuppets-your-ride-is-here.html
-
Except for the cop being cleared today
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
And a pretty good explanation of why we didn't shut down for Marburg or ebola
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/10/09/cdc-chief-why-dont-support-travel-ban-to-combat-ebola-outbreak/
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
And a pretty good explanation of why we didn't shut down for Marburg or ebola
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/10/09/cdc-chief-why-dont-support-travel-ban-to-combat-ebola-outbreak/
Much of his explanation is good for the roses.
-
Specifically?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Frieden's explanation is illogical and non-sensical. He's proving the CDC to be a clown shoes operation.
'We can't isolate Africa because it would mean ebola will be an epidemic there for years.'
-
So what would you implement and how? Bear in mind there are no direct flights from there to here.
And what do you foresee in the way of results/consequences?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
So what would you implement and how? Bear in mind there are no direct flights from there to here.
And what do you foresee in the way of results/consequences?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Doesn't matter. Anyone traveling directly from the hotzones would not have cleared customs at the airport in whatever country.
Results? Preventing a panic. Notice I didn't say pandemic. Consequences? None.
21 day quarantine.
-
How would you propose instituting your controls in those other countries?
And no consequences? Hardly
Here's what the guy from that liberal heritage foundation says
http://townhall.com/columnists/markdavis/2014/10/10/another-ebola-risk-it-eats-logic-n1903406?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Not sure I give two toots about the economies of West African nations. And what about our economy when there's a few dozen cases? You don't think the 24 hour news cycle will send our economy into the shitter over that?
And just because it isn't a guarantee of stopping someone from making it through, you figure why not just let them all come? Flights to the US are screened separately. If your exit stamp is from a country considered "hot", you should be barred entry. It's not rocket science. No, it's not perfect.
What happens when more people who know they are exposed or even infected start coming because they think they'll get better health care?
Maybe we can just get the police to shoot them?
-
Not sure I give two toots about the economies of West African nations. And what about our economy when there's a few dozen cases? You don't think the 24 hour news cycle will send our economy into the shitter over that?
And just because it isn't a guarantee of stopping someone from making it through, you figure why not just let them all come? Flights to the US are screened separately. If your exit stamp is from a country considered "hot", you should be barred entry. It's not rocket science. No, it's not perfect.
What happens when more people who know they are exposed or even infected start coming because they think they'll get better health care?
Maybe we can just get the police to shoot them?
All this, with bells on it.
I just love the "Since you can't guarantee 100% effectiveness we shouldn't do anything about it" attitude expressed by the CDC's Chief of Coprolalia. Heck, since the effectiveness of iodine and alcohol swabs at injection sites is not 100% effective on killing surface microbes, let us forgo that, as well. Hand washing? Not 100% effective, so to do so is counterproductive. Vaccination? Not 100% effective, so let us stop that, too.
We owe W African countries squat. The economic impact of barring all their nationals entry to the USA would rival a tack hammer made of cartilage. Which is what I would do:
1. Bar entry to the USA all citizens of those countries.
2. Bar entry to the USA all those who visit those countries. Merchant shipmen get to spend a week floating along hte American coat, since it takes ~2 weeks to sail from Lagos to Houston.
-
My wife's grandmother spent a month in quarantine at Ellis Island. Measles. With her two children. Grandfather came here and worked for 5 years to save up enough money to pay their passage.
We used to have strict immigration requirements for health. What changed besides political correctness? Is it the volume? Too many, so we don't do anything?
We are talking here about a natural epidemic. (I hope). What the hell are we going to do about a bio attack? Some guy with a vial of smallpox up his butt?
I think we are ruled by bozo's who simply do not have a clue about anything. They don't have any ideas except regurgitating their PC college talking points- they have never actually had to THINK and SOLVE any problem with real life consequences save for manipulating others viewpoints. Their sole meter of success is political opportunity.
I am reminded of the sort of commanders who rise to prominence during peacetime, only to be found utterly incompetent under combat conditions.
-
My wife's grandmother spent a month in quarantine at Ellis Island. Measles. With her two children. Grandfather came here and worked for 5 years to save up enough money to pay their passage.
We used to have strict immigration requirements for health. What changed besides political correctness? Is it the volume? Too many, so we don't do anything?
We are talking here about a natural epidemic. (I hope). What the hell are we going to do about a bio attack? Some guy with a vial of smallpox up his butt?
I think we are ruled by bozo's who simply do not have a clue about anything. They don't have any ideas except regurgitating their PC college talking points- they have never actually had to THINK and SOLVE any problem with real life consequences save for manipulating others viewpoints. Their sole meter of success is political opportunity.
I am reminded of the sort of commanders who rise to prominence during peacetime, only to be found utterly incompetent under combat conditions.
You attribute to incompetence what, at this point, ought to be ascribed to malevolence.
What will happen if it is Americans are on the receiving end of bioterror is quarantine at the point of a gun, with the shooter riding a milsurp MRAP. *expletive deleted* ck you if your kid is stuck at Chomo Elementary.
We have see this all before:
1. Arab muslim terrorists bring down 3 planes and hit the WTC and Pentagon. Increased scrutiny of Arabs & muslims? Restriction on travel from the country where most of them hailed? Nope. Restrictions on Americans. TSA. Sexual assault of American children at the hands of gov't. Forcing non-ambulatory elderly folk out of their wheelchairs and adult diapers.
2. Fed.gov wants to track terrorist commo. Does the TSA and Co focus on Arabs & muslims? Nope. Hoover up the commo of every American.
3. Improvised bomb at the Boston Marathon. Rally the citizenry to look for the dudes? Nope. Confine the inhabitants of hte city to their houses and patrol like it is Fallujah on the Charles, sweeping one and all with their tacticool-guy weaponry.
Given the choice to inconvenience foreigners or hack at the roots of American liberty, our gov't will break out the felling axe.
Every. Damned. Time.
-
Because - time and time again - the political system is dumber than its constituent parts.
Remember that - for example -the Patriot Act had been compose of proposals written years before 9/11 was even a glimmer in Osama's eye.
These people believe that there is only one response to any kind of attacks, disasters, monstrous tragedies - reduce liberty.
They just haul out pre-recorded recipes and apply them.
The manual says that reply to any kind of hazard is a lockdown.
Ergo, if a stranger is reported... being suspicious within 500 yards of a school, lockdown the school for 8 hours.
If a 10-year-old is seen riding the subway alone, stop the train - even if he has a phone and you can call his family to make sure they aware aware of his location.
Children will walk to school under escort, like convoyed prisoners.
Every person will be monitored, and encouraged to spy on his fellow citizens.
Moreover, even if "profiling" is legitimized, it will not happen instead of this nonsense, but on top of it.
-
Number two in Dallas. Is this the first case of transmission in the US?
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/10/12/health-care-worker-at-dallas-hospital-tests-positive-for-ebola/ (http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/10/12/health-care-worker-at-dallas-hospital-tests-positive-for-ebola/)
-
And the POS family members are suing Presby for taking care of their worthless sack of a relative. Don't really care if now if they DIAF wherever they may currently reside.
-
Number two in Dallas. Is this the first case of transmission in the US?
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/10/12/health-care-worker-at-dallas-hospital-tests-positive-for-ebola/ (http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/10/12/health-care-worker-at-dallas-hospital-tests-positive-for-ebola/)
But but...first world containment procedures! =D
I find it interesting that a health care worker contracts ebola but the dude pressure washing the sidewalk, the folks living in the apartment for a few days with Duncan and with his trash after that, and the ems folks who transported him to the hospital managed to not get it. I wonder what this health care workers job was.
-
And the POS family members are suing Presby for taking care of their worthless sack of a relative. Don't really care if now if they DIAF wherever they may currently reside.
With all the recent media stories about how he was turned away from the ED at the first visit, and conjecture that he may have lived if he was admitted then, I told my wife that a lawsuit was being set up.
-
Number two in Dallas. Is this the first case of transmission in the US?
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/10/12/health-care-worker-at-dallas-hospital-tests-positive-for-ebola/ (http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/10/12/health-care-worker-at-dallas-hospital-tests-positive-for-ebola/)
And a close contact of the health care worker is in 'preliminary isolation', whatever that is.
Supposedly, the "health care worker was wearing full protection gear and following all CDC guidelines when he or she made contact with Duncan." And yet this person still managed to contract Ebola.
-
With all the recent media stories about how he was turned away from the ED at the first visit, and conjecture that he may have lived if he was admitted then, I told my wife that a lawsuit was being set up.
I hope this doesn't surprise you. I am sure Jesse Jackson is only charging the family 40% or so of any future payouts from a lawsuit after he whips the crowd into a racially divided frenzy. ;)
bob
-
Her infection is nothing more than acceptable collateral damage in the war of political correctness vs common sense.
-
I suspect someone got careless. The lady in Spain thinks she touched her face while taking off her suit. I am a bit skeptical wonder if something more venal happened
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
With all the recent media stories about how he was turned away from the ED at the first visit, and conjecture that he may have lived if he was admitted then, I told my wife that a lawsuit was being set up.
If that is true, they deserve to win and receive a giant payout.
-
I suspect someone got careless. The lady in Spain thinks she touched her face while taking off her suit. I am a bit skeptical wonder if something more venal happened
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Very likely- the problem is, a perfect plan that does not include people making mistakes is not so perfect anymore-
Outside of the medical issue, my problem is the ass's in charge have been lying so unremittingly that I no longer trust anything any government official says, at any level, or any capacity, unless they can prove it to my satisfaction. I am not sure , even at this stage, that they realize how much the average citizen distrusts them.
-
I heard the tape of the Liberian gal calling an ambulance - I couldn't understand what the heck she was saying - I can see emergency personnel not taking them serious - she sounded really dumb.
I worked with a Liberian dude 13 yrs ago or so - he was difficult to understand too - but not that bad
-
Very likely- the problem is, a perfect plan that does not include people making mistakes is not so perfect anymore-
Outside of the medical issue, my problem is the ass's in charge have been lying so unremittingly that I no longer trust anything any government official says, at any level, or any capacity, unless they can prove it to my satisfaction. I am not sure , even at this stage, that they realize how much the average citizen distrusts them.
If either of my senators told me the sky is blue I'd go check it myself, and I don't really dislike either of them.
-
To everyone with Hand Wavium "We can handle this", the simple fact is: We Can Not. This has already jumped the ocean, and will continue to do so, unless and until we quarantine Ebolaland. The CDC either doesn't or refuses to acknowledge how virulent this virus is and the fact that in the past it has proven to be airborne. Looking at the CDC reports this is NOT "burning out" but continuing to spread and grow. Which it will continue to do until there is a wall built around it and it burns out within that wall.
As pointed out our facilities are neither designed nor equipped to handle this. And for those still practicing the Hand Wavium, tell me if you would take your wife or mother to Presby Hospital in Dallas today, if your loved one had been in a car accident? Would you be willing to take that chance? Are you willing to go there with your bleeding loved one (or yourself) in the same ER that DEG was in? Are you that confident that "they got it"?
This is fire. And the political correctness is going to kill people. Just like HIV has done
http://news.yahoo.com/investigators-rush-ebola-struck-dallas-nurse-160629231.html
Money quote:
"We have to rethink the way we address Ebola infection control. Even a single infection is unacceptable," Frieden told reporters.
Frieden is Dr. Thomas Frieden, director of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
When the guys in the white lab coats say "Huh, that wasn't supposed to happen." *expletive deleted*it just got real and bad all at once.
-
The CDC either doesn't or refuses to acknowledge how virulent this virus is and the fact that in the past it has proven to be airborne.
Even WND gets one right every now and then. (http://www.wnd.com/2014/10/is-protective-gear-inadequate-to-stop-ebola/)
-
Frieden is Dr. Thomas Frieden, director of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
When the guys in the white lab coats say "Huh, that wasn't supposed to happen." *expletive deleted* it just got real and bad all at once.
He sounds like a political hack who has been in over his head since day one. Not unexpected from the Peter Principle Presidency.
-
To everyone with Hand Wavium "We can handle this", the simple fact is: We Can Not. This has already jumped the ocean, and will continue to do so, unless and until we quarantine Ebolaland. The CDC either doesn't or refuses to acknowledge how virulent this virus is and the fact that in the past it has proven to be airborne. Looking at the CDC reports this is NOT "burning out" but continuing to spread and grow. Which it will continue to do until there is a wall built around it and it burns out within that wall.
As pointed out our facilities are neither designed nor equipped to handle this. And for those still practicing the Hand Wavium, tell me if you would take your wife or mother to Presby Hospital in Dallas today, if your loved one had been in a car accident? Would you be willing to take that chance? Are you willing to go there with your bleeding loved one (or yourself) in the same ER that DEG was in? Are you that confident that "they got it"?
This is fire. And the political correctness is going to kill people. Just like HIV has done
http://news.yahoo.com/investigators-rush-ebola-struck-dallas-nurse-160629231.html
Money quote:
Frieden is Dr. Thomas Frieden, director of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
When the guys in the white lab coats say "Huh, that wasn't supposed to happen." *expletive deleted* it just got real and bad all at once.
Bold part is factually incorrect. No strain of the virus that affects humans has ever been shown to be air transmissible. And if it was I'd expect to see higher numbers in the African outbreaks. Not saying it can't happen, but it has not so far.
-
Bold part is factually incorrect. No strain of the virus that affects humans has ever been shown to be air transmissible. And if it was I'd expect to see higher numbers in the African outbreaks. Not saying it can't happen, but it has not so far.
"Proven" is too strong a word, but the bit I hit with bold face is also factually incorrect. I recall reading that a strain of Ebola that kills both monkeys/baboons and humans, while at USAMRIID, manged to make the jump across a room in their level four containment facility. Infected primates caged on one side of the room and uninfected primates caged on the other side, no physical mixing. And the uninfected primates got the virus anyway.
USAMRIID was unable to explain how it happened, but it was considered rather disturbing. I do note that USAMRIID has not participated in the hot & heavy news-releases as the CDC has done:
http://www.usamriid.army.mil/newsroom.cfm
-
"Proven" is too strong a word, but the bit I hit with bold face is also factually incorrect. I recall reading that a strain of Ebola that kills both monkeys/baboons and humans, while at USAMRIID, manged to make the jump across a room in their level four containment facility. Infected primates caged on one side of the room and uninfected primates caged on the other side, no physical mixing. And the uninfected primates got the virus anyway.
USAMRIID was unable to explain how it happened, but it was considered rather disturbing. I do note that USAMRIID has not participated in the hot & heavy news-releases as the CDC has done:
http://www.usamriid.army.mil/newsroom.cfm
There was a lot more to that experiment than merely having monkeys in cages with no direct physical contact, but I don't have a link handy to the exact details.
-
"Proven" is too strong a word, but the bit I hit with bold face is also factually incorrect. I recall reading that a strain of Ebola that kills both monkeys/baboons and humans, while at USAMRIID, manged to make the jump across a room in their level four containment facility. Infected primates caged on one side of the room and uninfected primates caged on the other side, no physical mixing. And the uninfected primates got the virus anyway.
USAMRIID was unable to explain how it happened, but it was considered rather disturbing. I do note that USAMRIID has not participated in the hot & heavy news-releases as the CDC has done:
http://www.usamriid.army.mil/newsroom.cfm
Primates throw things and spit, not sure how big the room is. Also could have been bad hygiene on the part of the workers, like using same water/food bowls without proper cleaning.
-
Primates throw things and spit, not sure how big the room is. Also could have been bad hygiene on the part of the workers, like using same water/food bowls without proper cleaning.
Maybe so. In any case, USAMRIID could not suss out the cause.
Yet it still occurred. Makes it hard to argue "Unpossible!" when reality defies the claim. FTR, I do not claim to know how it happened, either.
-
Give a read to "The Hot Zone: The Terrifying True Story of the Origins of the Ebola Virus" by Richard Preston. It lays out the reasons why it was thought that Ebola Reston may have gone airborne. The best explanation USAMRIID could come up with was viruses tagging along on droplets of moisture coughed up by the infected monkeys and carried across the room by air circulation. But even that explanation was never really proven.
And, it happened not once but twice. The second occurrence was infection moving into a room that had no known infected monkeys.
Several humans also tested positive for Ebola Reston antibodies after it was all over. Lucky for them, Ebola Reston was a mutation deadly only to monkeys. Humans showed no symptoms of infection at all.
-
Primates throw things and spit, not sure how big the room is. Also could have been bad hygiene on the part of the workers, like using same water/food bowls without proper cleaning.
The line between "spit droplet" and "airborne" seems to be kind of vague at best to me.
-
Lucky for them, Ebola Reston was a mutation deadly only to monkeys. Humans showed no symptoms of infection at all.
Actually, IIRC, some showed mild flulike symptoms, but recovered quickly.
-
The line between "spit droplet" and "airborne" seems to be kind of vague at best to me.
End result is similar enough; catch it without discernible direct contact with infected bodily fluids. Only significant difference might be ease of filtration or raw distance covered by the transmission.
-
Actually, IIRC, some showed mild flulike symptoms, but recovered quickly.
In the book there were two folks that got sick during or after working in the lab. One presented some classic Ebola symptoms like vomiting and diarrhea. In the end he turned out to have food poisoning. Another actually had the flu.
Finished the book not long ago. However, the usual disclaimers for faulty memory and such. YMMV.
-
Primates throw things and spit, not sure how big the room is. Also could have been bad hygiene on the part of the workers, like using same water/food bowls without proper cleaning.
I know monkeys can throw *expletive deleted*it pretty hard, but last I checked they can't throw it through a wall. It spread to rooms that had no infected monkeys.
-
Maybe so. In any case, USAMRIID could not suss out the cause.
Yet it still occurred. Makes it hard to argue "Unpossible!" when reality defies the claim. FTR, I do not claim to know how it happened, either.
Quite a big difference between "hasn't happened yet" and "unpossible."
-
The line between "spit droplet" and "airborne" seems to be kind of vague at best to me.
I would like more clarification on this issue, too.
I can make the distinction between water as an aerosol and water dissolved into the air. An aerosol is small to super-tiny droplets. Anything form sea spray to fog. Water dissolved into the air presents itself as absolute humidity. The two act on the hardware I care about in different ways.
But as to the difference between "airborne" and "aerosol" in the medical/biological sense, I could use a hint.
Quite a big difference between "hasn't happened yet" and "unpossible."
That's the thing: IIRC, it has happened. In a USAMRIID Level 4 protocol lab. They could not explain how, though(1), so claims of "proven" seem premature while at the same time "hasn't happened yet" can no longer be claimed. Not a happy place to be, but there you are.
I am not referring to Reston Virus.
But, again, you don't see any goobers form USAMRIID running in front of a camera to claim it can't happen.
(1) And, yes, poo and urine flinging was postulated, as well as some sort of aerosolized bodily fluids. They could not hammer any of them down to their satisfaction.
-
Gives new meaning to "silent but deadly"
-
The problem I have is with the arrogant twit talking heads- whether it be the president, the cdc director, or news anchors- they refuse to acknowledge that they do not know what they do not know. We are literally stuck in a political talking point that is on par with 'flat earthers.'
The refusal to budge from the 'can only be spread by bodily fluids and direct contact' narrative flies in the face of plenty of anecdotal evidence that health care workers are contracting ebola without either.
A 'real' scientist would assume that he knows nothing, and work from square zero to figure out what is happening.
This is not science that our 'ministries of science' are peddling, its pure bullshit.
-
I know monkeys can throw *expletive deleted* it pretty hard, but last I checked they can't throw it through a wall. It spread to rooms that had no infected monkeys.
Infected primates caged on one side of the room and uninfected primates caged on the other side, no physical mixing.
I didn't read that as separate rooms.
-
The line between "spit droplet" and "airborne" seems to be kind of vague at best to me.
Our standard precautions for "droplet" are that it's transmissible by body fluids and/or a several foot radius of said person (however far they can sneeze). Think flu, colds, etc. Your medical team should be showing up in gowns, regular masks, gloves, and possibly goggles. Depends on how spitty you are...
"Airborne" is far more serious. These germs are smaller and can just hang out for a while. These patients get quarantined pretty quick: negative pressure treatment room so they aren't sharing air with the rest of the department, hospital staff wears the heavy duty masks (N95 or PAPR) as well as the gowns, gloves, goggles. Hospital staff has to recertify on the N95 on a yearly basis or we CANNOT care for these patients due to risk of exposure. Airborne nastiness includes measles, chicken pox, and TB. Oh - and we make the patients wear a mask, too. We have to deep clean the room after they leave... after we let it sit empty for four hours.
I hope that helps.
-
The line between "spit droplet" and "airborne" seems to be kind of vague at best to me.
I look at it from the point of view of gravity, spit droplet will hit the ground quickly, while airborne can be carried through the air.
-
I would like more clarification on this issue, too.
I can make the distinction between water as an aerosol and water dissolved into the air. An aerosol is small to super-tiny droplets. Anything form sea spray to fog. Water dissolved into the air presents itself as absolute humidity. The two act on the hardware I care about in different ways.
But as to the difference between "airborne" and "aerosol" in the medical/biological sense, I could use a hint.
That's the thing: IIRC, it has happened. In a USAMRIID Level 4 protocol lab. They could not explain how, though(1), so claims of "proven" seem premature while at the same time "hasn't happened yet" can no longer be claimed. Not a happy place to be, but there you are.
I am not referring to Reston Virus.
But, again, you don't see any goobers form USAMRIID running in front of a camera to claim it can't happen.
(1) And, yes, poo and urine flinging was postulated, as well as some sort of aerosolized bodily fluids. They could not hammer any of them down to their satisfaction.
I said it had not been proven, which is correct. And again, I started this thread off by saying it could mutate into a form both virulent to humans and airborne. I have seen no evidence that this has happened in this case.
-
http://www.medpagetoday.com/InfectiousDisease/Ebola/48067
A nursing view of the DFW Ebola matter.
-
I look at it from the point of view of gravity, spit droplet will hit the ground relatively quickly, while airborne can be carried through the air.
FIFY
How long depends on droplet size, air currents, etc. Watch how long a dust mote or piece of fluff from brushing the cat can stay suspended in the air. Also look around during a heavy fog, and those are often droplets big enough to see that are drifting quite well on tiny air currents.
-
Yea a real hack rofl.
Google is your friend
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
-
I didn't read that as separate rooms.
If you had read it as adjacent enclosures in the same room you would be correct though
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
-
http://www.medpagetoday.com/InfectiousDisease/Ebola/48067
A nursing view of the DFW Ebola matter.
Raises the question of *why* the proper methods for decon and contaminated clothing removal aren't practiced and enforced; even if you're not in surgery or a particular infectious disease ward, there's no way of knowing what else a new patient might have in addition to their primary complaint. A chronic allergy sufferer with a broken leg might also be coming down with the flu, for example. IMO, the proper way of removing aprons, gowns, gloves, etc. doesn't really add much time or effort even if you're doing it over and over.
I did have to do a lot of that when I was working pest control; if nothing else, it eliminates the question of "did I have these gloves on when I pulled the festering mouse corpse out of the puddle of organophosphate pesticide?" or "have I properly cleaned my respirator/goggles/apron since the sprayer tip clogged and splashed me in the face with who-knows-what?" if you just do it the safe way every time. When I was doing treatments in hospitals and nursing homes, I made a point of changing gloves and shoe covers at each department boundary, even though I touched as little as possible.
-
Yea a real hack rofl.
Google is your friend
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
His wiki page shows that he's the medical equivalent of a community organizer- par for the course with this administration.
-
FIFY
How long depends on droplet size, air currents, etc. Watch how long a dust mote or piece of fluff from brushing the cat can stay suspended in the air. Also look around during a heavy fog, and those are often droplets big enough to see that are drifting quite well on tiny air currents.
...but if you would study the different known species of Ebolavirus, you would see that they all have a weak protein shell that disrupts when outside of bodily fluids. It desiccates very easily and becomes unviable, hence why it hasn't become an airborne virus yet.
Here is some reading for everyone, might squelch some of the concerns about it going airborne.
http://www.vox.com/2014/8/10/5980553/ebola-outbreak-virus-aerosol-airborne-pigs-monkeys
-
...but if you would study the different known species of Ebolavirus, you would see that they all have a weak protein shell that disrupts when outside of bodily fluids. It desiccates very easily and becomes unviable, hence why it hasn't become an airborne virus yet.
Here is some reading for everyone, might squelch some of the concerns about it going airborne.
http://www.vox.com/2014/8/10/5980553/ebola-outbreak-virus-aerosol-airborne-pigs-monkeys
"Ebola is not like the flu. You're not going to catch the disease from simply being across the room from someone who has it."
...and yet we have a case of a nurse in the United states who has contracted it while wearing proper PPE and taking proper precautions.
But just because this happened between pigs and monkeys doesn't mean it's likely to happen between people. The big difference is that pigs cough and sneeze a lot when they're sick with Ebola — way more than people do.
'doesn't mean its likely'
'Of course, it's entirely possible that a big spit droplet from a human Ebola patient could fly a few feet through the air and land on someone else. But current Ebola protection measures seem to guard against this. Health-care workers are told to cover their faces and bodies with protective gear, for example, and patients are generally separated from the general population by a buffer zone of plastic fencing.'
In essence they are saying that they don't think it can be transmitted by sneeze/cough droplets....
It might be wise to take extra precautions... as I've said before, the experts don't know that they don't know.
The ASSumption is that the transmission is only through bodily fluids- has anyone checked any other vectors? Could there be a difficult to detect mite that is transmitting it? Could there be something else that noone has thought of or even looked into yet?
-
The results section of this study too
http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/179/Supplement_1/S108.long
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
-
...and yet we have a case of a nurse in the United states who has contracted it while wearing proper PPE and taking proper precautions.
Yet she probably slipped up somewhere and got it.
It might be wise to take extra precautions... as I've said before, the experts don't know that they don't know.
Yep, you don't see me heading on a flight to go look at trees in Western Africa. :)
-
Yet she probably slipped up somewhere and got it.
Yep, you don't see me heading on a flight to go look at trees in Western Africa. :)
I suggest we tell the folks in west Africa if they want to come see our trees they must sit in quarantine for three weeks and be tested for the virus before we'll allow them to visit.
Let's do it for the children ;)
-
Yet she probably slipped up somewhere and got it.
That's the official party line. The alternative is that she didn't slip up and contracted it anyway, which would not be too supportive of the 'experts' narrative.
I'm more inclined to believe a front line nurse than a seat warmer in a political office.
-
That's the official party line. The alternative is that she didn't slip up and contracted it anyway, which would not be too supportive of the 'experts' narrative.
I'm more inclined to believe a front line nurse than a seat warmer in a political office.
If a disease this virulent was airborne we'd know it, because there would be dozens if not hundreds of cases in America right now, and the African epidemic would be much much worse.
I've gotten MRSA twice from hospitals, I'm always ready to believe that someone just screwed up. They can't manage to wash their damn hands normally, I doubt they can manage high level PPE and sanitation procedures on an extended basis.
-
As every parent knows, things don't even need to be properly aerosolized to travel to odd places.
Give my 3 year old some cake, and stand facing her wearing gloves, mask, apron, goggles, etc.
As you're scraping frosting off the back of your neck and cleaning it out of your left ear, explain to me again how anything other than total, impermeable coverage is adequate to stop Ebola.
-
They don't even wash their hands
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2332756/Hospitals-spying-workers-struggle-doctors-nurses-wash-hands.html
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
-
If a disease this virulent was airborne we'd know it, because there would be dozens if not hundreds of cases in America right now, and the African epidemic would be much much worse.
I've gotten MRSA twice from hospitals, I'm always ready to believe that someone just screwed up. They can't manage to wash their damn hands normally, I doubt they can manage high level PPE and sanitation procedures on an extended basis.
There may just be doizens or hundreds of cases already, but it won't be known for 20 days or so.
I have to concede a point though. Again today, I witnessed a woman at work (not the most outwardly hygenic person, I'll add), take the newspaper into the bathroom and then place it back onto the lunch table when she came back out 15 minutes later. I'm leaving a nasty note on the paper. [barf]
-
I didn't read that as separate rooms.
Yes, totally isolated, separate rooms. No mixing of food, people or utensils. Nothing that had ever been in Room "A" ever allowed in Room "B". The only possible transmission source was.....wait for it......
The HVAC system.
So yeah. Airborne.
And as someone who's entire life revolves around infection prevention procedures, I think this goes here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-JA1ffd5Ms
-
There may just be doizens or hundreds of cases already, but it won't be known for 20 days or so.
Average (not possible but very unusual) incubation time is around a week. If ebolaboy had infected lots of folks, lots of folks would be popping now.
-
Yes, totally isolated, separate rooms. No mixing of food, people or utensils. Nothing that had ever been in Room "A" ever allowed in Room "B". The only possible transmission source was.....wait for it......
The HVAC system.
So yeah. Airborne.
And as someone who's entire life revolves around infection prevention procedures, I think this goes here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-JA1ffd5Ms
I think people may be discussing different instances. Do you have a link to the one you're talking about, I would be interested to read about it. Thanks.
-
I am not referring to Reston Virus.
I believe you are, in fact. USAMRRID handled most of the investigation and mitigation of the Ebola Reston outbreak in the Hazleton Laboratories facility in Reston, VA, the site of the Ebola Reston outbreak. They did a lot of work on the remains of euthanized monkeys in their USAMRRID labs. I don't recall if they performed any experimentation on monkeys in their labs, however.
For the record, CDC played a relatively minor part in the Reston incident.
Unless there is another incident out there that I have not seen a reference to.
-
Reston is the one that the zomg folks try to use as an example of "its gone airborne"
It falls short of that
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
-
Yes, totally isolated, separate rooms. No mixing of food, people or utensils. Nothing that had ever been in Room "A" ever allowed in Room "B". The only possible transmission source was.....wait for it......
The HVAC system.
So yeah. Airborne.
And as someone who's entire life revolves around infection prevention procedures, I think this goes here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-JA1ffd5Ms
Got a link? Roo ster typed same room. I've noticed he has a memory like a steel trap, if he read separate rooms, I'm pretty sure he would have typed that because that is so much more alarming than infected and uninfected in the same room.
-
There may just be doizens or hundreds of cases already, but it won't be known for 20 days or so.
I have to concede a point though. Again today, I witnessed a woman at work (not the most outwardly hygenic person, I'll add), take the newspaper into the bathroom and then place it back onto the lunch table when she came back out 15 minutes later. I'm leaving a nasty note on the paper. [barf]
I pitched a fit to the nurse at work giving out flu shots on why she didn't wear gloves when giving shots. She was an older lady and pretty much gave me the screw you look. I dropped out of line and went to the nurse who changed her glove between each person.
-
Reston is the one that the zomg folks try to use as an example of "its gone airborne"
It falls short of that
It's neither proof nor disproof. We should remember and understand that. Something unexplained happened during that incident. The virus traveled between isolated rooms to infect crab-eating Macaques from a completely different shipment and past the accepted quarantine period for Ebola Zaire (Ebola Reston seriously twigged the Mayinga Ebola test, the only test for Ebola Zaire at that time, scaring the crap out of the USAMRIID scientists.)
One hopes that there is a non-airborne explanation for how ER made it to that isolated monkey room. But at the end of the day, we just do not know.
-
I believe you are confusing the reston case with the outbreak of same virus at texas facility. Its described in link in post 265
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
-
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F7%2F77%2FSneeze.JPG&hash=2706b4704074e5ef03edfa7ef8e593149016789f)
*edited the size, about choked my phone. -charby
-
I believe you are confusing the reston case with the outbreak of same virus at texas facility. Its described in link in post 265
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Who is confusing Reston with Texas? My info comes from the Reston event.
-
Reston was one room different cages/enclosures i believe let me got look again its been a while
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
-
snopes even has something to about it.
http://www.snopes.com/medical/disease/ebolaairborne.asp
-
Your were right they were in room f and h. However they all came from the same place in 2 shipments. Were both infected when they showed up
https://web.stanford.edu/group/virus/filo/ebor.html
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
-
Reston was one room different cages/enclosures i believe let me got look again its been a while
Actually multiple rooms. From the book cited earlier, plus some other sources recently read.
After additional reading, my earlier statement about the isolated room containing monkeys past incubation time may not be accurate. YMMV.
-
Yeah, it's airborne:
http://www.nature.com/srep/2012/121115/srep00811/full/srep00811.html
http://ispub.com/IJPRM/2/1/12768
And, indeed researchers discovered that this was a new species of Ebola virus, which they named Ebola-Reston15, 28, 29. The new virus was highly pathogenic in monkeys but apparently not in humans. The researchers also dispelled the idea that filoviruses were found only in Africa, because the monkeys had been imported from the Philippines. The investigators documented a high likelihood of aerosol transmission outside a controlled laboratory setting, because the virus appeared to pass between rooms to infect susceptible monkeys. Specimens from animals that died or were killed to eradicate the outbreak yielded fertile ground for research in new Ebola virus detection and identification techniques and the virological and pathological events associated with infection.
-
Yeah, it's airborne:
http://www.nature.com/srep/2012/121115/srep00811/full/srep00811.html
http://ispub.com/IJPRM/2/1/12768
That is about Reston ebolavirus which is a non-pathogen to humans.
The current outbreak is Zaire ebolavirus.
-
I pitched a fit to the nurse at work giving out flu shots on why she didn't wear gloves when giving shots. She was an older lady and pretty much gave me the screw you look. I dropped out of line and went to the nurse who changed her glove between each person.
Back when my grandfather was in the hospital for the last stretch, one of the DUMB ass nurses came to draw blood...and she drew blood without wearing gloves. What. The. *expletive deleted* ck. I believe that if Millcreek had been there to witness it he would have stroked out right there.
-
Yeah, it's airborne:
http://www.nature.com/srep/2012/121115/srep00811/full/srep00811.html
http://ispub.com/IJPRM/2/1/12768
Link 2 above your post shows both groups came from same farm were likely infected when they came in door.
And from your link
The design and size of the animal cubicle did not allow to distinguish whether the transmission was by aerosol, small or large droplets in the air, or droplets created during floor cleaning which landed inside the NHP cages (fomites).
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
-
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/10/13/1336165/-CDC-recommendations-are-going-to-kill-health-care-workers
Lol. Daiky cos even says the cdc is full of *expletive deleted*it.
-
Uh, you guys realize that gloves are A) not sterile; and B) for their protection.
-
snopes even has something to about it.
http://www.snopes.com/medical/disease/ebolaairborne.asp
That settles it, snopes says ebola is not airborne. No need go wear masks, let aline supplied breathing air.
-
Uh, you guys realize that gloves are A) not sterile; and B) for their protection.
Thats what she said.
-
Uh, you guys realize that gloves are A) not sterile; and B) for their protection.
Yes, but one should change them between touching different patients.
-
That settles it, snopes says ebola is not airborne. No need go wear masks, let aline supplied breathing air.
oh geez...
-
Yes, but one should change them between touching different patients.
Germophobe!
-
I was not referring to the reston virus which had multiple rooms of critters and different rooms came down with the reston virus at different times. Very strong indications that it could infect via airborn means. Super creepy but not a killer of humans.
I was referring to an incident earlier in the hot zone book witnessed or documented by the lady epidemiologist. I also googled her after reading the hot zone. Anyways the location was the usamriid level four facility. One room had several deliberately infected baboons or monkeys and two uninfected controls. They were dissecting the infected ones to see the progression of ebola over time on the internal organs. And it came a big mf-ing surprise when the controls came down with ebola. They could not explain how it happened but it caused quite a bit of heartburn.
Of course i can no longer recall why i thought it significant so i will suck down a spaten optimator dopplebock on general principle. Mmmmm.
-
http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2014/09/commentary-health-workers-need-optimal-respiratory-protection-ebola
Fascinating...
-
Uh, you guys realize that gloves are A) not sterile; and B) for their protection.
Yes, I know, considering I was a firefighter/first responder and have been to several infectious disease control classes...
It is still inexcusable for medical personnel not to wear such basic protection when it is available. Even in light of the gloves not being sterile, it does provide a barrier between the patient and care provider that helps both parties, even if it is not a "perfect" solution. It's damn stupid of a care provider not to use the gloves and/or not change them between patients.
-
Not wearing gloves is stupid.
Doesn't mean there aren't healthcare workers who wear them 100% of the time. (Some tell me that it limits their ability to feel the veins. I call BS, but whatever.)
And as far as nurses not knowing how to "sterile" remove a gown, mask, and gloves.... yeah. That's crazy talk, too. First off, a gown isn't a sterile piece of equipment. It's to keep things clean, not sterile. The only sterile gowns are in the OR; the rest of us use clean gear. Like the kid with the cake, it doesn't work all the time. It helps, but it isn't perfect.
We get retrained on proper gear use and removal EVERY winter/flu season: emails, demonstrations, the whole 9 yards. Yes, sometimes I skip using the full gown get up on a known flu patient, but I always mask and glove. Drives the floor nurses batty! [popcorn]
-
Vaccine tests to start in humans. (http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/10/13/canadianmade_ebola_vaccine_to_start_clinical_trials_in_humans.html)
-
Yet she probably slipped up somewhere and got it.
Yep, you don't see me heading on a flight to go look at trees in Western Africa. :)
Thing is cdc needs a cya face saving scenario that does not make them look like fools for suggesting level two is good enough when it might not be.
Of course i witnessed docs and nurses screwing the pooch live and in color in the service so a nurse screw up would not shock me.
Still the cdc had zero facts when it instantly jumped to "the nurse messed up bexause our protocol is golden."
-
Vaccine tests to start in humans. (http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/10/13/canadianmade_ebola_vaccine_to_start_clinical_trials_in_humans.html)
I've seen that movie before.
-
You don't design a policy around best case scenarios.
Allowing people from hot zones to travel here is counting on best case scenarios, "we can handle this".
It is bad public policy and it will probably kill some folks.
-
We need to send Dr. Friedan a dictionary:
quar·an·tine
noun \ˈkwȯr-ən-ˌtēn, ˈkwär-\
: the period of time during which a person or animal that has a disease or that might have a disease is kept away from others to prevent the disease from spreading
: the situation of being kept away from others to prevent a disease from spreading
-
Still the cdc had zero facts when it instantly jumped to "the nurse messed up bexause our protocol is golden."
I guess they are taking lessons from members of the modern press. Jump to conclusions and blame everyone. :)
-
We need to send Dr. Friedan a dictionary:
Frieden, like our president, is out of his depth.
-
I am skrood! Folks better come steal my toys before the whole city is infected.
http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/local/city-of-richmond/richmond-clinic-evaluating-whether-patient-is-at-risk-of-ebola/article_cb28d73a-5320-11e4-97f5-0017a43b2370.html
A woman who dropped by a South Richmond clinic with a low-grade fever Monday found herself being evaluated as the city’s first potential Ebola patient and was transferred to VCU Medical Center last night after being isolated most of the day at the clinic where she had sought treatment.
The clinic officially serves the entire homeless population, as well as large chunks of the employed lower socioeconomic class.
The woman had a low-grade fever and had recently traveled to Liberia, one of the West African nations hard hit by the deadly virus.
Stern stressed that the patient did not fully meet entry-level criteria for establishing the presence of Ebola, but nevertheless would undergo further testing at the hospital as a precaution.
“Since the additional testing recommended cannot be performed at CrossOver, the patient was transferred to a local hospital for further clinical and laboratory evaluation,” Stern said in a statement Monday night.
“Depending the on the results of the emergency department evaluation (Monday night), the CDC will advise regarding any further testing,” Stern said.
He praised the CrossOver clinic’s “high degree of professional expertise,” noting that the patient had not come to CrossOver out of fear of Ebola but that clinicians there placed the patient in isolation after determining that she had traveled to Liberia and showed a low-grade fever.
Patients with Ebola tend to show far more serious symptoms, such as vomiting and high fevers.
First, kudos for recognizing there may be a problem. Still no word on what, if anything, they did about staff and other patients that were there at the time.
And about the last sentence in the quote above - does that mean that while the ebola is incubating and building up to the point it overwhelms the body it is "something other than ebola"? :facepalm: [tinfoil]
Anyhow, all y'all that want to can come and steal my toys. Given that the whole city will be dead from this soon, there is no need to wipe your feet before you come in.
stay safe.
-
Ebola shows signs of slowing down in Liberia (http://www.npr.org/2014/10/12/355564105/ebola-shows-small-signs-of-slowing-in-liberia), first US troops now on the ground. It's Ebolavirus Zaire vs. the US Army, I know who I am betting on.
-
Betting on it being statistically impossible for the entire 4,000 US contingent to get out of there without anyone contracting the crap?
-
I was not referring to the reston virus which had multiple rooms of critters and different rooms came down with the reston virus at different times. Very strong indications that it could infect via airborn means. Super creepy but not a killer of humans.
I was referring to an incident earlier in the hot zone book witnessed or documented by the lady epidemiologist. I also googled her after reading the hot zone. Anyways the location was the usamriid level four facility. One room had several deliberately infected baboons or monkeys and two uninfected controls. They were dissecting the infected ones to see the progression of ebola over time on the internal organs. And it came a big mf-ing surprise when the controls came down with ebola. They could not explain how it happened but it caused quite a bit of heartburn.
Of course i can no longer recall why i thought it significant so i will suck down a spaten optimator dopplebock on general principle. Mmmmm.
Thanks for the clarification, roo_ster. Read the same book and had forgotten that part. Must be the oldtimers disease kicking in.
-
Ebola shows signs of slowing down in Liberia (http://www.npr.org/2014/10/12/355564105/ebola-shows-small-signs-of-slowing-in-liberia)
Read recently where this is likely just a breakdown in the victim tracking process, not a real slowdown in the spread of the disease. Many hospitals and other health care facilities overwhelmed, folks are not using them, many are holing up in their homes for self-care or otherwise not reporting when they are infected.
If I run across the story again I will post a link.
-
Read recently where this is likely just a breakdown in the victim tracking process, not a real slowdown in the spread of the disease. Many hospitals and other health care facilities overwhelmed, folks are not using them, many are holing up in their homes for self-care or otherwise not reporting when they are infected.
If I run across the story again I will post a link.
I've read the same link. Massively undercounted, because there isn't anyone left who cares enough to count. Also, officials being bribed to change cause of death to something other than ebola so that family members can be buried together in cemetaries instead of incinerated.
-
Many hospitals and other health care facilities overwhelmed, folks are not using them, many are holing up in their homes for self-care or otherwise not reporting when they are infected.
This is where I really start to lose sympathy for them. Hiding out by yourself, preferably with a quarantine sign at the door, is one thing. Dooming your family to go with you (after spreading it to a neighbor or ten) is completely different.
-
Doc blows off quarantine Says she's sorry.
http://us.cnn.com/2014/10/14/health/ebola-nbc-snyderman-apology/index.html?sr=sharebar_twitter
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Doc blows off quarantine Says she's sorry.
http://us.cnn.com/2014/10/14/health/ebola-nbc-snyderman-apology/index.html?sr=sharebar_twitter
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
A Western medical professional who "Knows better". Lovely.
-
It's the mindset that begets careless behavior
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Doc blows off quarantine Says she's sorry.
http://us.cnn.com/2014/10/14/health/ebola-nbc-snyderman-apology/index.html?sr=sharebar_twitter
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
My wife, the RN, told me about this last night.
IF we end up haveing an Ebola problem in the States, it'll be because of hubris like this. Or Dr. "I'm just poking my head in I don't need to bother with full PPE".
FWIW, My wife's hospital is the designated Ebola treatment place in Tampa, and we've been discussing the actions and training they are doing just in case. Don't know about the Texan's, but here the precautions are actually pretty good. Negitive pressure rooms, designated (limited numbers of) caregivers, designated wet decon area and disposal, BSL-3 protocols, Stocked up on all the PPE they can get to ensure supply, Designated hot, warm and cold zones in advance with authorized, trained people already listed for warm and hot, retraining on first contact protocals and what to do with the ER folks and areas if people come off the street, so far 2 unannouced drills in the last month. Basiclly, they're taking the whole thing seriously without freaking out, and acting professionally, in advance, to limit exposure and ensure containment.
From what I've heard, my county Sheriff also has plans in place to patrol and check in on likely first vector populations (we have a couple of decent sized African immigrant comunities)*, and they started a couple weeks ago doing community outreach to make sure folks know the early symptoms and who to call for help.
*There was a little drama early on when the SD just hit all the "Africans" and lumped a Somali mosque in with W. Africans. Apparantly there is little love lost between those populations. =D
-
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jamaicaobserver.com%2Fassets%2F11085117%2FSERHA.jpg&hash=c8f37a9bda72e7d1d9988bc0d0f599035e8855ac)
-
And as far as nurses not knowing how to "sterile" remove a gown, mask, and gloves.... yeah. That's crazy talk, too. First off, a gown isn't a sterile piece of equipment. It's to keep things clean, not sterile. The only sterile gowns are in the OR; the rest of us use clean gear. Like the kid with the cake, it doesn't work all the time. It helps, but it isn't perfect.
Still taking it off the right way every time is sort of equivalent to treating every gun as if it is loaded; you don't set yourself up with a bad habit.
-
From Dr. Tim's Moment Of Clarity on FB
Ok, out of retirement for one more…. Not to be a jerk or anything, but I have to wonder how a government that can't build a website or find an email can assure us they have this Ebola thing dialed in. I'm not panicked about it, but if you can't stop a 10 year old Guatemalan kid from coming here you don't stand a chance against the plague - just sayin'. The President says we can't get it sitting on the bus and I believe him - even a virus won't ride those things. So far, the only Americans infected have been wearing the hazmat suits directed by CDC, so I'm going to avoid those like the…
-
If I am a troll then you are Chicken Little.
I want to publically apologize to Balog for calling him Chicken Little. I though that this thread was going to be a ZOMG we are all going to die because its our government's fault, much to my surprise and pleasure this has been a very productive thread of good information and very intelligent debate.
-
Another health care worker that treated Mr. Duncan has tested positive for Ebola and has been hospitalized at Presby in Dallas.
Story here (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/second-texas-healthcare-worker-tests-positive-for-ebola/ar-AA6SmXb)
"An additional health care worker testing positive for Ebola is a serious concern, and the CDC has already taken active steps to minimize the risk to health care workers and the patient," the CDC said.
That makes two.
-
I wonder what case number the tipping point for panic is?
-
Some interesting claims were made by the nurse's union over protocols, or the lack thereof, during the initial treatment of Duncan.
Story here (http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/10/15/texas-health-officials-say-second-healthcare-worker-at-dallas-hospital-tests/)
-
Good thing that stuff is so hard to catch. Some other stories coming out of that hospital are a little hair raising if true.
Not getting my faith in our superior first world health care system bolstered at all.
-
Another health care worker that treated Mr. Duncan has tested positive for Ebola and has been hospitalized at Presby in Dallas.
Story here (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/second-texas-healthcare-worker-tests-positive-for-ebola/ar-AA6SmXb)
"An additional health care worker testing positive for Ebola is a serious concern, and the CDC has already taken active steps to minimize the risk to health care workers and the patient," the CDC said.
That makes two.
And the family are considering legal action against the hospital? Arrest them all as accessories to (attempted so far) murder.
None of them are sick and the health care workers are? THEY KNEW HE HAD EBOLA and told no one. That makes them guilty as well.
-
And the family are considering legal action against the hospital? Arrest them all as accessories to (attempted so far) murder.
None of them are sick and the health care workers are? THEY KNEW HE HAD EBOLA and told no one. That makes them guilty as well.
(Incidentally, this is not just anger at their sense of entitlement. This is good policy: make it clear anyone who knowingly aids and ebola patient in getting to this country or afterwards without making known his condition will be sent directly to jail. Confiscate all the assets (if any) used to help him, too- pour encourager les autres)
-
http://fox59.com/2014/10/15/2nd-healthcare-worker-tests-positive-for-ebola-at-dallas-hospital/
Claim: Duncan wasn’t immediately isolated
On the day that Duncan was admitted to the hospital with possible Ebola symptoms, he was “left for several hours, not in isolation, in an area where other patients were present,” union co-president Deborah Burger said.
Up to seven other patients were present in that area, the nurses said, according to the union.
A nursing supervisor faced resistance from hospital authorities when the supervisor demanded that Duncan be moved to an isolation unit, the nurses said, according to the union.[/quote]
If true, this one should have some heads rolling. As I recall, Presbyterian has cameras in several areas, so it shouldn't be hard to prove or disprove...unless they've hired Lois Lerner to handle their security tapes.
Claim: The nurses’ protective gear left their necks exposed
After expressing concerns that their necks were exposed even as they wore protective gear, the nurses were told to wrap their necks with medical tape, the union says.
Last I checked, most of those tapes aren't designed to be impermeable barrier materials by themselves. How hard would it really have been to get some proper hoods at least? Remember, this is Dallas we're talking about; medical supply companies all over the place. TI is just up the road with clean room gear that's better than tape and paper masks. Not ideal, but it would buy them a couple of days to get something overnighted from anywhere on the continent.
“They were told to use medical tape and had to use four to five pieces of medical tape wound around their neck. The nurses have expressed a lot of concern about how difficult it is to remove the tape from their neck,” Burger said.
And how hard it would be to do that without spreading any contamination on the tape.
Claim: At one point, hazardous waste piled up
“There was no one to pick up hazardous waste as it piled to the ceiling,” Burger said. “They did not have access to proper supplies.”
No excuse whatsoever; it's a damn hospital. Everything they use that can't be sterilized for reuse should be treated exactly the same; as a potentially severe biohazard. Again, we need to take the approach that we can't be sure the guy who presented with a broken leg isn't also an asymptomatic typhoid carrier.
Claim: Nurses got no “hands-on” training
“There was no mandate for nurses to attend training,” Burger said, though they did receive an e-mail about a hospital seminar on Ebola.
Again, not a magic germ. Avoid contact with it in the same way you would avoid contact with any other germ. Treat every gun as if it's loaded, and every patient leaking anything as if it's the next plague.
-
Good thing that stuff is so hard to catch. Some other stories coming out of that hospital are a little hair raising if true.
Not getting my faith in our superior first world health care system bolstered at all.
There are probably lots of hospitals around the country that would surprise people with their issues. That stuff never gets publicized much.
I was thinking that a good law would be to outlaw secret or close settlements or agreements in malpractice cases. It all should be public knowledge.
-
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2014/10/14/us-isnt-done-with-ebola
Researchers predict more cases in the United States based on flight patterns.
They say to be prepared for up to 6000 cases if there are no flight bans.
-
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2014/10/14/us-isnt-done-with-ebola
They say to be prepared for up to 6000 cases if there are no flight bans.
BUT BUT BUT, IF WE BANNED THE FLIGHTS SOMEONE WOULD STILL GET THROUGH!!!
I MEAN, YEAH, IT MIGHT BE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 6000 CASES AND 600 CASES, BUT SINCE IT WON'T STOP THEM ALL, WE CAN'T DO IT BECAUSE RACISM!
(Disclaimer: I know and have heard several times that there are no direct flights from the affected area. We can, however, stop issuing and put a hold on all visas to the infected areas and further quarantine or turn away every citizen returning from said affected areas and any other person with evidence of travel to/from those areas. That's what is meant by "travel ban.")
-
BUT BUT BUT, IF WE BANNED THE FLIGHTS SOMEONE WOULD STILL GET THROUGH!!!
I MEAN, YEAH, IT MIGHT BE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 6000 CASES AND 600 CASES, BUT SINCE IT WON'T STOP THEM ALL, WE CAN'T DO IT BECAUSE RACISM!
(Disclaimer: I know and have heard several times that there are no direct flights from the affected area. We can, however, stop issuing and put a hold on all visas to the infected areas and further quarantine or turn away every citizen returning from said affected areas and any other person with evidence of travel to/from those areas. That's what is meant by "travel ban.")
The CDC director said something along the lines that a travel ban would make it difficult to stop the spread of Obola. :facepalm:
-
BUT BUT BUT, IF WE BANNED THE FLIGHTS SOMEONE WOULD STILL GET THROUGH!!!
IMO, we need to apply the same logic to other aspects of government:
- Since there's no man-portable gun out there with a 100% one-shot-stop rate, we must disarm all Federal officers
- Since we can't get all the drugs off the street, we must disband the DEA
- Same for BATFE, since they can't get all the illegal guns
- Still some pollution. Bye, EPA
- Bad beef anywhere? Toss the USDA
-
The CDC director said something along the lines that a travel ban would make it difficult to stop the spread of Obola. :facepalm:
Yeah, I love that one. As though we would not be able to make special circumstances for aid workers.
That, by itself, showed me he was a political hack and not to be trusted.
-
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv635%2Fbrimic%2Fobama_ebola_bumper_sticker-r16c6f311840040fb9341a750c0e6b628_v9wht_8byvr_512_zps29a77ce0.jpg&hash=2abdc38a637219e07e34cceb54c6b296e06c354d)
-
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/10/15/world/africa/ebola-epidemic-who-west-africa.html?_r=1&referrer=
:O
-
BUT BUT BUT, IF WE BANNED THE FLIGHTS SOMEONE WOULD STILL GET THROUGH!!!
I MEAN, YEAH, IT MIGHT BE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 6000 CASES AND 600 CASES, BUT SINCE IT WON'T STOP THEM ALL, WE CAN'T DO IT BECAUSE RACISM!
(Disclaimer: I know and have heard several times that there are no direct flights from the affected area. We can, however, stop issuing and put a hold on all visas to the infected areas and further quarantine or turn away every citizen returning from said affected areas and any other person with evidence of travel to/from those areas. That's what is meant by "travel ban.")
I wonder what the Libertarian thought is on travel bans?
-
IMO, we need to apply the same logic to other aspects of government:
- Since there's no man-portable gun out there with a 100% one-shot-stop rate, we must disarm all Federal officers
- Since we can't get all the drugs off the street, we must disband the DEA
Let's not pretend we've not heard this argument made.
-
Let's not pretend we've not heard this argument made.
Actually, if we are to hold our government to being consistant and accountable, those are legitimate arguements.
-
I wonder what the Libertarian thought it is on travel bans?
The purpose of "government" in Libertarian ideology is to protect the life, liberty, and property of the people in any ways the people can't for themselves, or the private sector can not.
Knowingly or unknowingly passing on a lethal contagion is an act of aggression against the life and liberty of others. So roaming around free with a deadly communicable disease automatically violates the Libertarian NAP.
To paraphrase Tom Clancy, (ironic, since he's got a strong authoritarian streak...) Libertarianism is not a suicide pact.
If anything, under a Libertarian system, "travel bans" and quarantine might actually have some teeth. A private transportation concern, be it a plane, a ship, a train, or maybe even a private road may actually ban travel for the infected more effectively than the .gov ever would. It would be in the financial interests of these companies to not carry infected people, either because of direct threat to their profits, the well being of it's employees, or simply because of the loss of good will with the public/customer base if it was found out they facilitated the transportation of a person with a deadly disease.
I'd argue that the .gov makes it worse, because of it's tendency to engage in negative-profiling, and misplaced egalitarian desires to engage in Political Correctness. Kind of like how the TSA gives the 90 year old American woman in a wheelchair a strip-search, and waves through a bunch of Middle Eastern women in burqas.
i.e. "Travel ban from Africa is racist, you can't do that! Keep flying!" meanwhile, an airline under a Libertarian system would be allowed to discriminate if it so wished if it thought that was in it's best interests as a business.
-
Being in an enclosed space with a symptomatic patient seems like it should call for extreme precautionary measures. Whatever the researchers are doing the medical care givers should do to protect themselves and the public.
Abstract
Secondary transmission of Ebola virus infection in humans is known to be caused by direct contact with infected patients or body fluids. We report transmission of Ebola virus (Zaire strain) to two of three control rhesus monkeys (Macaca mulatta) that did not have direct contact with experimentally inoculated monkeys held in the same room. The two control monkeys died from Ebola virus infections at 10 and 11 days after the last experimentally inoculated monkey had died. The most likely route of infection of the control monkeys was aerosol, oral, or conjunctival exposure to virus-laden droplets secreted or excreted from the experimentally inoculated monkeys. These observations suggest approaches to the study of routes of transmission to and among humans.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673695928413
-
I want to publically apologize to Balog for calling him Chicken Little. I though that this thread was going to be a ZOMG we are all going to die because its our government's fault, much to my surprise and pleasure this has been a very productive thread of good information and very intelligent debate.
Apology accepted, and no hard feelings. On another forum I frequent I've been accused of being an Information Controller paid by the feds to squash panic and lie about how much of a non-threat ebola is so I felt it added a nice symmetry. :lol:
-
Actually, if we are to hold our government to being consistant and accountable, those are legitimate arguements.
As would be disbanding the IRS and eliminating all Federal income taxes because they can't get everyone to pay a fair share.
-
I wonder what the Libertarian thought it is on travel bans?
Not a libertarian any more, more a classical liberal/paleoconservative. In any case, libertarianism is not anarchy, no matter how hard the an-caps and suchlike want to claim it. Thus, there is a case for gov't protecting life, liberty, and property with force from foreign aggression.
Being in an enclosed space with a symptomatic seems like it would call for extreme precautionary measures. Whatever the researchers are doing the medical care givers should do.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673695928413
Heart-warming, that is.
Apology accepted, and no hard feelings. On another forum I frequent I've been accused of being an Information Controller paid by the feds to squash panic and lie about how much of a non-threat ebola is so I felt it added a nice symmetry. :lol:
Might both be correct? :lol:
-
Not a libertarian any more, more a classical liberal/paleoconservative. In any case, libertarianism is not anarchy, no matter how hard the an-caps and suchlike want to claim it. Thus, there is a case for gov't protecting life, liberty, and property with force from foreign aggression.
You should look into the neo-reaction, I think you'd like it.
Might both be correct? :lol:
:O
If I told you, I'd have to kill you...
:police: [tinfoil]
-
Being in an enclosed space with a symptomatic patient seems like it should call for extreme precautionary measures. Whatever the researchers are doing the medical care givers should do to protect themselves and the public.
More, really; samples in test tubes are a lot more predictable than delirious live patients.
-
Apology accepted, and no hard feelings. On another forum I frequent I've been accused of being an Information Controller paid by the feds to squash panic and lie about how much of a non-threat ebola is so I felt it added a nice symmetry. :lol:
Thank-you!
-
Being in an enclosed space with a symptomatic patient seems like it should call for extreme precautionary measures. Whatever the researchers are doing the medical care givers should do to protect themselves and the public.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673695928413
Kind of what I had been reading about all the time on how the Zaire ebolavirus can infect people that are in contact or very close to an infected person.
-
TI is just up the road with clean room gear that's better than tape and paper masks.
I am intimately familiar with all Dallas area TI fab cleanroom gear. Cleanroom gear is not suitable for this. The material is thin and semi see - thru. It is not waterproof. The veils are either thin mesh or polyester fabric. Cheap Paper masks would be better. The only purpose of the gear is to contain clothing fibers and hairs and skin cell clumps. I just don't want anyone to try using cleanroom gear thinking it doe smore than it does. It's great for hot-weather beekeeping though. There do exist Tyvek chemical suits which would be a lot better.
-
And the snowball continues to roll downhill and pick up speed....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/10/15/ebola-stricken-nurse-flew-on-a-passenger-plane-a-day-before-being-diagnosed/
-
IMO, we need to apply the same logic to other aspects of government:
- Since there's no man-portable gun out there with a 100% one-shot-stop rate, we must disarm all Federal officers
- Since we can't get all the drugs off the street, we must disband the DEA
- Same for BATFE, since they can't get all the illegal guns
- Still some pollution. Bye, EPA
- Bad beef anywhere? Toss the USDA
sounds like a decent swap to me......
-
I am intimately familiar with all Dallas area TI fab cleanroom gear. Cleanroom gear is not suitable for this. The material is thin and semi see - thru. It is not waterproof. The veils are either thin mesh or polyester fabric. Cheap Paper masks would be better. The only purpose of the gear is to contain clothing fibers and hairs and skin cell clumps. I just don't want anyone to try using cleanroom gear thinking it doe smore than it does. It's great for hot-weather beekeeping though. There do exist Tyvek chemical suits which would be a lot better.
Interesting; last one I was in used the Tyvek hooded "bunny suits." They may have been concerned with more than clean room standards, though, as they were also handling some moderately dangerous chemicals just outside the clean room area.
At any rate, the Tyvek outfit is fairly common from what I've seen. (Last food production facility I worked at used them for guests and fairly often on cleanup days, since they were acid resistant. IIRC, in the multiple pallet quantities we ordered, they were under $4 each.) Add a full face respirator, tape over the zipper and the overlaps at the gloves, boots and face, and it would be pretty much the better of the suits that have been shown in some of the Africa photos. Not real level IV gear, but a heck of a lot better than what the Fox article described with exposed skin at the neck.
-
Interesting; last one I was in used the Tyvek hooded "bunny suits." They may have been concerned with more than clean room standards, though, as they were also handling some moderately dangerous chemicals just outside the clean room area.
At any rate, the Tyvek outfit is fairly common from what I've seen. (Last food production facility I worked at used them for guests and fairly often on cleanup days, since they were acid resistant.
Yep, the tyvec is cheap/light, and as long as it doesn't get wet should be fairly effective if its taped up properly. The local home depot probably has them in stock.
Saranex, is far better- chemical resistant, water proof, but about 20x as expensive. If I were on decon detail, I'd wouldn't go with anything less than saranex. I've handled materials in Saranex that would kill you outright in small quantities if you didn't have the gear on.
Level A gear would be much better. The good thing about Level-A is you can stand in a kiddie pool of disinfectant and be scrubbed and hosed off, and reuse the gear many times over. There is no way you could get infected with it on short of the suit being compromised or it not being deconned correctly. The downside is that its HOT, and your limited to how much air you have in your SCBA.
-
The media needs to track down our MIA ebola czar and find out what the plan is for containing this virus here stateside.
http://thefederalist.com/2014/10/14/president-obama-already-has-an-ebola-czar-where-is-she/
-
The media needs to track down our MIA ebola czar and find out what the plan is for containing this virus here stateside.
http://thefederalist.com/2014/10/14/president-obama-already-has-an-ebola-czar-where-is-she/
Why do you hate women?
-
Level A gear would be much better. The good thing about Level-A is you can stand in a kiddie pool of disinfectant and be scrubbed and hosed off, and reuse the gear many times over. There is no way you could get infected with it on short of the suit being compromised or it not being deconned correctly. The downside is that its HOT, and your limited to how much air you have in your SCBA.
Back when I was doing the hazmat training officer and hazmat response thing, I used to dread suiting up in the Chemturion suits, because I would come out five pounds lighter just from the sweat. And this was in Seattle weather. I can hardly imagine what it would be like in a hot climate.
-
Back when I was doing the hazmat training officer and hazmat response thing, I used to dread suiting up in the Chemturion suits, because I would come out five pounds lighter just from the sweat. And this was in Seattle weather. I can hardly imagine what it would be like in a hot climate.
If you're on a fixed air system, you blow cool air in. Makes a huge difference, though it pretty much requires separate temp controls for each person, since what's comfy for one might be freezing or sweaty for others.
-
^^^I can see that happening in a fixed space with air plumbing, like a lab or healthcare facility. I wonder if they now have portable air cooling units for the free-range suits, as you are cleaning up the acid spill from the tanker truck or similar.
-
And the snowball continues to roll downhill and pick up speed....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/10/15/ebola-stricken-nurse-flew-on-a-passenger-plane-a-day-before-being-diagnosed/
I don't know about picking up speed
From the article
This health-care worker flew on a Frontier Airlines flight from Cleveland to Dallas-Fort Worth with more than 130 other passengers. She did not have nausea or vomit on the plane, so the risk to anyone around her is “extremely low,” Frieden said.
-
I don't know about picking up speed
From the article
This health-care worker flew on a Frontier Airlines flight from Cleveland to Dallas-Fort Worth with more than 130 other passengers. She did not have nausea or vomit on the plane, so the risk to anyone around her is “extremely low,” Frieden said.
Did she drop a deuce in the plane lavatory? Have a runny nose? (See hte mythbusters episode for xmission of bodily fluid if one has a runny nose).
Hopefully, the other passengers are OK.
-
Back when I was doing the hazmat training officer and hazmat response thing, I used to dread suiting up in the Chemturion suits, because I would come out five pounds lighter just from the sweat. And this was in Seattle weather. I can hardly imagine what it would be like in a hot climate.
They used to have us kick a soccer ball around in them on training days to get used to the lack of dexterity.
Yes, nothing like emptying a 1/2 gallon of sweat out of your boots when taking the gear off.
-
^^^I can see that happening in a fixed space with air plumbing, like a lab or healthcare facility. I wonder if they now have portable air cooling units for the free-range suits, as you are cleaning up the acid spill from the tanker truck or similar.
We used vests filled with compartments of 'freezer gel,' It kept you cool for awhile, but then again, the SCBA only fed you air for awhile anyway.
-
I don't know about picking up speed
From the article
I'm told she boarded the plane with a fever but didn't report it immediately because it didn't meet a protocol threshold. Like others, I'm increasingly skeptical of the "gotta be projectile vomiting blood to be infectious" standard.
-
^^^I can see that happening in a fixed space with air plumbing, like a lab or healthcare facility. I wonder if they now have portable air cooling units for the free-range suits, as you are cleaning up the acid spill from the tanker truck or similar.
Depends on the circumstances; if they can get a truck close enough for hoses, and you're not in a situation that would either endanger the hoses or possibly create a worse situation by entangling you with them, then supplying multiple suits with continuous air from a large filtration unit is a lot more practical than several SCBAs. After all, this isn't like a smoke situation where you could easily switch air supplies by holding your breath for a few seconds; if you run out, you're out, and even getting out of the contaminated area doesn't help unless you can hold your breath long enough for at least a minimal decon.
-
Quick !!! Anyone else see anything wrong with this picture? (One of these things is not like the others, one of these things just doesn't belong...")
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/health/2nd-Ebola-Patient-Traveled-Between-Dallas-Cleveland-Before-Showing-Symptoms-279291962.html?_osource=SocialFlowTwt_DFWBrand
:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
And finally, someone that doesn't have their head completely up their fourth point.
On Wednesday afternoon Dallas County Judge Clay Jenkins said he planned to enact a legal control order restricting the travel of health care workers who treated Ebola patient Thomas Duncan by blocking them from using public transportation, including buses and airliners.
The control order would give the county legal authority to restrict the movement of those being monitored for the potentially deadly virus.
Although not a strict quarantine of the ~75 people that treated DEG, it's a start. They are "self monitoring" according to health officials.
:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
-
I was goggling to see how long Ebola can live in snot and came across this article in Women's Health from a few weeks ago.
They interview two Drs, one who is a Ebola expert and another who is a disease/immunology. Its a quick read and very informative.
http://www.womenshealthmag.com/health/ebola-virus-questions
My favorite is the last question:
WH: Is there anything else you think our readers should know?
Dr. Lahey:
I think the big thing to focus on is that people are naturally curious about this, it’s exotic, it’s new, it’s concerning, it’s getting a lot of media play. Knowing that there are in fact incredibly low odds of this causing any problems in the United States or developed world, and even if it does, the likely scope of this is going to be small. Which is why it’s important for us to keep our eye on the real global health ball: There are millions of people dying every year of things like malaria, HIV, diarrheal illnesses. I hope the coverage puts it in that context. Ebola is novel and unusual, but a very small impact compared to malaria, HIV, and TB.
-
Yes, but we can treat/cure Malaria, HIV, and TB. We have establish methods to prevent their spread (sans DDT and political correctness with HIV). We have no prevention methods, treatments or cures for Ebola. And the CDC/administration is refusing to use the best known tools to prevent its spread.
-
The local news is reporting that the second nurse, prior to her flight, called the CDC for permission to fly. The CDC denied such permission but she flew anyway.
-
There a fox piece out saying they gave permission but they contradict their zomg headline in the article by admitting she didn't tell em about fever
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
I was goggling to see how long Ebola can live in snot and came across this article in Women's Health from a few weeks ago.
They interview two Drs, one who is a Ebola expert and another who is a disease/immunology. Its a quick read and very informative.
http://www.womenshealthmag.com/health/ebola-virus-questions
My favorite is the last question:
Reading assignment: http://www.amazon.com/The-Black-Swan-Improbable-Robustness/dp/081297381X
A worldwide pandemic of a deadly disease is a rare low probability event, but its impact is irretractable.
Normalcy bias will cause people to greatly underestimate such odds despite the mounting evidence around them.
-
Reading assignment: http://www.amazon.com/The-Black-Swan-Improbable-Robustness/dp/081297381X
A worldwide pandemic of a deadly disease is a rare low probability event, but its impact is irretractable.
Normalcy bias will cause people to greatly underestimate such odds despite the mounting evidence around them.
yep- I have seen people deny problems AFTER they happened. Life threatening safety issues with heavy equipment.
-
Yes, but we can treat/cure Malaria, HIV, and TB. We have establish methods to prevent their spread (sans DDT and political correctness with HIV). We have no prevention methods, treatments or cures for Ebola. And the CDC/administration is refusing to use the best known tools to prevent its spread.
There are DDT and pyrethroids (stuff bed nets are currently treated with) resistant mosquito populations now. So DDT is no longer the saving grace that the chemical happy crowd is always pointing at.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140224204808.htm
HIV/AIDS, last time I checked there was no cure, what is interesting it spreads in similar ways of the different Ebola species, not all but many of the way. Currently HIV is a manageable disease but it will kill you eventually, quicker unless you got Magic Johnson's money. Plus if I remember correctly HIV/AIDS had spread to a lot of people before they really knew what it was and how it spread. Not sure how the non politically correct method would have worked, also where would have put all those people infected with HIV? FDR's abandoned internment camps?
Yes, Malaria can be treated, but it is also not contagious, have to be bit by the mosquito that has the malaria parasite.
Maybe things like Marburg and Ebola viruses are nature's way of controlling the population of a certain species? This time its the human species turn for a population reduction? There are a lot more viruses and bacterial species then there is of any vertebrate or invertebrate and they evolve a lot faster than the other animals, I think Darwin would have appreciated the wee nasty beasties.
-
I read that book 2-3 years ago. Very insightful.
Meanwhile we have gone from 0 exposed in the US over a month ago to 3 confirmed cases and
75+ Dallas Presbyterian Healthcare workers exposed
132 on a Frontier Airlines flight
20ish of DEG's family, friends and co-workers.
?? Because Dr. "Soup" Synderman couldn't keep her *expletive deleted*ss under "Voluntary" quarantine.
And an unknown number of unknowns that have yet to develop symptoms.
And yet "We got this."
Yeah, we do....
:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
-
There are DDT and pyrethroids (stuff bed nets are currently treated with) resistant mosquito populations now. So DDT is no longer the saving grace that the chemical happy crowd is always pointing at.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140224204808.htm
HIV/AIDS, last time I checked there was no cure, what is interesting it spreads in similar ways of the different Ebola species, not all but many of the way. Currently HIV is a manageable disease but it will kill you eventually, quicker unless you got Magic Johnson's money. Plus if I remember correctly HIV/AIDS had spread to a lot of people before they really knew what it was and how it spread. Not sure how the non politically correct method would have worked, also where would have put all those people infected with HIV? FDR's abandoned internment camps?
Yes, Malaria can be treated, but it is also not contagious, have to be bit by the mosquito that has the malaria parasite.
Maybe things like Marburg and Ebola viruses are nature's way of controlling the population of a certain species? This time its the human species turn for a population reduction? There are a lot more viruses and bacterial species then there is of any vertebrate or invertebrate and they evolve a lot faster than the other animals, I think Darwin would have appreciated the wee nasty beasties.
So advocating for genocide now? "Just let it run it's course." Nice....
1) DDT is far, far, far more effective then anything else to reduce/eliminate malaria. (Also works against bedbugs, btw) And although you claim to be an expert at Microbiology, perhaps some basic chemistry is in order. "The dosage makes the poison" A little DDT goes long way. As opposed to how it (and everything else) was used in the 40's, 50's and 60's. We know better now.
2) Transmission of HIV is much more difficult then Ebola. (HIV doesn't have you puking and shitting blood). Plus the primary transmission method of HIV was identified early on (Anal sex, as it had to go into the blood stream, hence the difficulty in males getting it from females.) Had those ID with the virus been quarantined early on, its spread would have stopped. However, they didn't want it to be a "gay and or druggie" disease, so enough "others" had to become infected (transfusions) to show that "everyone" is at risk. And the only way to do that was to put everyone at risk. The populations today primarily effected (now that blood is screened) are surprisingly Homosexual men and Intravenous drug users.
3) And what happens if you test positive for TB? QUARANTINED for treatment.
Why are we not doing it with Ebola?
-
You know how many folks we've quarantined for tb? And when?
http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/state-quarantine-and-isolation-statutes.aspx
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
So advocating for genocide now? "Just let it run it's course." Nice....
1) DDT is far, far, far more effective then anything else to reduce/eliminate malaria. (Also works against bedbugs, btw) And although you claim to be an expert at Microbiology, perhaps some basic chemistry is in order. "The dosage makes the poison" A little DDT goes long way. As opposed to how it (and everything else) was used in the 40's, 50's and 60's. We know better now.
2) Transmission of HIV is much more difficult then Ebola. (HIV doesn't have you puking and shitting blood). Plus the primary transmission method of HIV was identified early on (Anal sex, as it had to go into the blood stream, hence the difficulty in males getting it from females.) Had those ID with the virus been quarantined early on, its spread would have stopped. However, they didn't want it to be a "gay and or druggie" disease, so enough "others" had to become infected (transfusions) to show that "everyone" is at risk. And the only way to do that was to put everyone at risk. The populations today primarily effected (now that blood is screened) are surprisingly Homosexual men and Intravenous drug users.
3) And what happens if you test positive for TB? QUARANTINED for treatment.
Why are we not doing it with Ebola?
Man trying to conquer and control everything is going to be the end of our species.
-
Man trying to conquer and control everything is going to be the end salvation of our species.
It is why we no longer piss in the same stream we get drinking water from and have to chase down herd animals with pointy sticks.
-
Man trying to conquer and control everything is going to be the end of our species.
So your plan is what? *expletive deleted*ck it?
-
So your plan is what? *expletive deleted* ck it?
That is what happens when you try to control everything, you play "God" and stuff comes back with vengeance.
Just look at the antibiotic resistant common bacteria, Round Up resistant weeds, etc.
-
That is what happens when you try to control everything, you play "God" and stuff comes back with vengeance.
Just look at the antibiotic resistant common bacteria, Round Up resistant weeds, etc.
Yeah, or introducing rabbits to australia... ;/
You miss the point, ebola zaire does not belong in the western hemisphere, its an alien species. To negligently introduce it go our country where prevention is incredibly simple is beyond criminal.
-
That is what happens when you try to control everything, you play "God" and stuff comes back with vengeance.
Just look at the antibiotic resistant common bacteria, Round Up resistant weeds, etc.
Putting someone with an Infectious disease isn't playing God
-
Yeah, or introducing rabbits to australia... ;/
You miss the point, ebola zaire does not belong in the western hemisphere, its an alien species. To negligently introduce it go our country where prevention is incredibly simple is beyond criminal.
Nether does small pox. :)
I got the point, but if you are going to intercontinental trade and travel you got to understand the risks.
Malaria came from Africa, same place that Ebola showed up. Same with Yellow Fever, both came over during the slave trade.
Syphilis came from the new world, also Polio, Hepatitis and Encephalitis.
-
I read that book 2-3 years ago. Very insightful.
Meanwhile we have gone from 0 exposed in the US over a month ago to 3 confirmed cases and
75+ Dallas Presbyterian Healthcare workers exposed
132 on a Frontier Airlines flight
20ish of DEG's family, friends and co-workers.
?? Because Dr. "Soup" Synderman couldn't keep her *expletive deleted* under "Voluntary" quarantine.
And an unknown number of unknowns that have yet to develop symptoms.
And yet "We got this."
Yeah, we do....
:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs2.quickmeme.com%2Fimg%2F9a%2F9a32b5fd2e96017c9d8f02162b2fb06caaa83327da49a61274dcba6af038d7d3.jpg&hash=c29a4d5dd81649fbd979bf29276d0bbaa7282364)
-
So, FEG* visited her fiancé while in Cleveland. What do you reckon the odds are that they "exchanged" some bodily fluids?
* flying Ebola girl.
-
So, FEG* visited her fiancé while in Cleveland. What do you reckon the odds are that they "exchanged" some bodily fluids?
* flying Ebola girl.
Much higher than if they were married, but lower than if they weren't already engaged.
-
Much higher than if they were married, but lower than if they weren't already engaged.
Statistically married folks have a much higher frequency of sexual activity.
And the flying doc merely illustrates that voluntary quarantines never work. I am very reluctant to support .gov agents using force against people, but quarantines need to be enforced (and harshly) or they are always ineffectual.
-
That is what happens when you try to control everything, you play "God" and stuff comes back with vengeance.
Just look at the antibiotic resistant common bacteria, Round Up resistant weeds, etc.
What am I to see?
People today are healthier, live longer, and eat more than ever before.
World hunger is on the retreat.
There are many many many social problems.
But there's no meaningful argument against the fact that medical and industrial progress has consistently caused the simple problems of starvation and plague to retreat, step by painful step.
Just in some numbers:
When the Soviet Union collapsed, the number of people living in undernourishment conditions was about a billion. Today - despite the fact that the population of Earth has clearly grown - this is 805 million. Less people are starving in absolute numbers. Comparable to the grim darkness of the pre-industrial age, when hunger was commonplace in even the wealthiest parts of the world, this is nothing short of fantastic.
Malaria (http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/20111022_WOC808.gif) is on the decline, and has last year been eliminated in yet another country. HIV is on decline (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-01-17/new-hiv-infections-in-south-africa-on-steady-decline-un-says) in Africa - a disease from which we have no cure and no vaccine, and yet civilization is making its inevitable advance.
Basic hygiene works. NBC suits work. Quarantines work. Civilization works.
In the battle between a virus and the United States of America, my money is on the United States of America, President Barack Obama, and the United States Army.
They're going to win, again.
-
Nether does small pox. :)
I got the point, but if you are going to intercontinental trade and travel you got to understand the risks.
Malaria came from Africa, same place that Ebola showed up. Same with Yellow Fever, both came over during the slave trade.
Syphilis came from the new world, also Polio, Hepatitis and Encephalitis.
Erm no... Its a very simply matter to bar immigration from hot zones. Our government chose not to.
-
Erm no... Its a very simply matter to bar immigration from hot zones. Our government chose not to.
I don't disagree and more than likely most immigration could be stopped from the hot zones, well unless they went through Mexico first.
The question is who is going to got to the hot zones and keep the people from immigrating elsewhere and spreading the disease to others? Damn near be impossible to ban the entire world from entering the US.
-
Oh now you get all reality bound
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Well if we were in front of this and had a ban in place sooner we know of two women who wouldn't have contracted ebola.
-
And the flying doc merely illustrates that voluntary quarantines never work.
Except that it wasn't even a voluntary quarantine; CDC told her it was OK to travel.
-
Except that it wasn't even a voluntary quarantine; CDC told her it was OK to travel.
I heard she is claiming that she asked to travel and was told it was okay. Claims they told her that her fever wasn't high enough.
-
I don't disagree and more than likely most immigration could be stopped from the hot zones, well unless they went through Mexico first.
The question is who is going to got to the hot zones and keep the people from immigrating elsewhere and spreading the disease to others? Damn near be impossible to ban the entire world from entering the US.
Err... unless they are swimming across the Med or the Atlantic (after walking through several countries that have already closed their borders), they will have had to get on a plane and use a passport.
Now, I might be just making things up here, but aren't there some type of computation devices that track where an individual's origin was while on the flights on those new-fangled aereoplanes?
-
I heard she is claiming that she asked to travel and was told it was okay. Claims they told her that her fever wasn't high enough.
99.5 really isn't. That would be like diagnosing someone with a heart problem based on a 10% elevated rate, from one measurement, without knowing current mental state and recent exertion.
Also depends on the method; when one of our friends got one of those non-contact thermometers, we played with it for a while. Different vasoconstricting and vasodilating foods will let you register a strong fever or severe hypothermia on the thing while perfectly healthy.
-
Shows a lack of discretion and judgement all the way around.
Even though you've had contact with a fully symptomatic individual your fever isn't high enough yet to be of concern! :facepalm:
Instead of telling her to lay low and monitor her condition they gave her the go ahead to interact in one of the most public forums possible that has the most potential to facilitate the spread of a infectious disease! :facepalm:
We live in bizzarro world.
-
http://www.whdh.com/story/26802882/dallas-nurse-speaks-out-about-ebola-preparedness
Dallas nurse dimes the hospital out for making them use suits that exposed part of their necks.
-
What am I to see?
People today are healthier, live longer, and eat more than ever before.
World hunger is on the retreat.
There are many many many social problems.
But there's no meaningful argument against the fact that medical and industrial progress has consistently caused the simple problems of starvation and plague to retreat, step by painful step.
Just in some numbers:
When the Soviet Union collapsed, the number of people living in undernourishment conditions was about a billion. Today - despite the fact that the population of Earth has clearly grown - this is 805 million. Less people are starving in absolute numbers. Comparable to the grim darkness of the pre-industrial age, when hunger was commonplace in even the wealthiest parts of the world, this is nothing short of fantastic.
Malaria (http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/20111022_WOC808.gif) is on the decline, and has last year been eliminated in yet another country. HIV is on decline (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-01-17/new-hiv-infections-in-south-africa-on-steady-decline-un-says) in Africa - a disease from which we have no cure and no vaccine, and yet civilization is making its inevitable advance.
Basic hygiene works. NBC suits work. Quarantines work. Civilization works.
In the battle between a virus and the United States of America, my money is on the United States of America, President Barack Obama, and the United States Army.
They're going to win, again.
A lot of food gains were made on availability of cheap hydrocarbons to make fertilizer and selective breeding. Also water is being depleted faster than it can be replenished from some areas that currently producing food, also soil is being degraded where it will be less productive in time, usually do too much alkali in the soil from over watering in arid regions.
Something else about Phosphorus fertilizer is getting expensive or harder to get because the easy mined stuff is drying up. I'll have to find my source on that, I also might be confusing that with Potassium, but I'm pretty sure there is a lot of that is easy to get.
-
A lot of food gains were made on availability of cheap hydrocarbons to make fertilizer and selective breeding. Also water is being depleted faster than it can be replenished from some areas that currently producing food, also soil is being degraded where it will be less productive in time, usually do too much alkali in the soil from over watering in arid regions.
Something else about Phosphorus fertilizer is getting expensive or harder to get because the easy mined stuff is drying up. I'll have to find my source on that, I also might be confusing that with Potassium, but I'm pretty sure there is a lot of that is easy to get.
D00000Mz0rz!!!111
I heard about the phosphorus shortage a few years ago, it is a thing. Just have to start grinding up people's bones for fertilizer. >:D
-
http://www.whdh.com/story/26802882/dallas-nurse-speaks-out-about-ebola-preparedness
Dallas nurse dimes the hospital out for making them use suits that exposed part of their necks.
This is the part I find utterly indefensible; I could possibly excuse the first day, but I'm pretty sure the proper equipment was in stock somewhere. Right now, if I had the cash, and assuming the manufacturer keeps some stock, there could be a Chemturion 3525 in my grubby little hands tomorrow morning. Overnight shipping within CONUS is hardly an undue hardship in a case like this, and having worked for an oilfield company, I know full well that for (a lot, to me, but hardly a drop in the bucket for a hospital) more money, I could find someone willing to pick it up from ILC within the hour, drive it to the nearest airport, put it on a chartered plane, and fly it directly to my local airport.
If the stuff is available, there's no excuse for not having it within 24 hours. Really, they should have had something on hand of at least very good level III, just given that it is a frickin' hospital, and sick people go there all the time. Heck, judging from the media photos, Frisco FD was far better prepared for a biohazard incident than a major hospital.
-
Oh geez, not this crap again. The anti-Malthusian gleefest. Ok, Malthus was wrong. He didn't forsee the green revolution. Yay for you. Go breed like rabbits. Thing is, Malthus was right. He just missed by a matter of degrees. Earth is finite. The amount of arable land, the resources we can extract, the level of discord people will tolerate over scarcity. I know that there is a lot of love for pie in the sky BS like space mining, colonizing other worlds, etc, but it's not here. A little population control through prosperity wouldn't hurt.*
*The surest form of population control is capitalist freedom. In developed countries where women have careers we don't have baby booms. Crazy crap like China's mandated birth policy are unnecessary and disgusting.
-
I don't disagree and more than likely most immigration could be stopped from the hot zones, well unless they went through Mexico first.
The question is who is going to got to the hot zones and keep the people from immigrating elsewhere and spreading the disease to others? Damn near be impossible to ban the entire world from entering the US.
Yet another "If it isn't 100% effective, we should not do it because badfeelz."
mak mentioned the new-fangled flying machines and automated counting devices.
Also, bordering countries are putting up travel bans. So, travel from Liberia in the face of airborne travel bans will include overland travel to a neighboring country, evading THEIR travel ban, and getting false docs/bribing their way on to a plane. All of which takes time, money, access to other resources. Time during which the traveler can come down with obvious symptoms or just plain die on the way. Either way, that means they don't get on the flight from Lagos or Dakar to London and then to DFW.
This is rapidly moving to the right on the Pareto Chart, addressing less and less frequent/likely events.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_chart
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F8%2F8a%2FPareto.PNG%2F800px-Pareto.PNG&hash=5dc72f5ab98ebcd8cdb372767a8a491fd53d0329)
And thus far, we can estimate that for every DEG stopped by the various bans that there are two nurses in America who won't contract ebola with one of them likely dying.
This is not rocket science, folks.
-
And thus far, we can estimate that for every DEG stopped by the various bans that there are two nurses in America who won't contract ebola with one of them likely dying.
Nursing schools are cranking them out by the dozens. One dead nurse is a small price to pay to avoid offending anyone. ;/
-
Yet another "If it isn't 100% effective, we should not do it because badfeelz."
Never said we shouldn't do it, but who and how is it going to be done?
-
Never said we shouldn't do it, but who and how is it going to be done?
Been addressed multiple times on this and other ebola-a-go-go threads. Done it my own self at least once.
-
Maybe actually use the TSA for something besides grandma groping. Pretty darn simple. Every legal international traveler has a passport/visa. If your travel originated or shows you stopped in one of the epidemic countries you ain't getting in. Use the FEMA camps for quarantine and hold them 28 days and then if they're clear fine, let them in. Or US based carriers could screen on the originating point and just not let them on the plane. If a foreign based carrier won't play ball tell them they can land in some other country.
-
Never said we shouldn't do it, but who and how is it going to be done?
I guess it was ignored missed before.
Here, I'll spell it out.
HOW TO ENACT A TRAVEL BAN FROM A COUNTRY:
1. Stop issuing visas to individuals from that country.
2. Freeze ALL existing Visas from that country.
3. Deny entrance anyone whose travel itinerary indicates origin from that country
4. Deny entrance to anyone whose passport indicates travel through or from that country
5. IF you allow individuals from that country, quarantine them upon arrival in your own country.
6. Ban any airline from landing if they do not assist in the above.
Will some get through? Very likely.
The process to do so is significantly harder now and doesn't entail walking into Monrovia's airport and buying a ticket to Dallas.
-
I guess it was ignored missed before.
Here, I'll spell it out.
HOW TO ENACT A TRAVEL BAN FROM A COUNTRY:
1. Stop issuing visas to individuals from that country.
2. Freeze ALL existing Visas from that country.
3. Deny entrance anyone whose travel itinerary indicates origin from that country
4. Deny entrance to anyone whose passport indicates travel through or from that country
5. IF you allow individuals from that country, quarantine them upon arrival in your own country.
6. Ban any airline from landing if they do not assist in the above.
Will some get through? Very likely.
The process to do so is significantly harder now and doesn't entail walking into Monrovia's airport and buying a ticket to Dallas.
What about backlash from business? DuPont, BASF, Sygenta, Mosanto, various American oil companies travel to that part of the world quite regularly.
-
What about backlash from business? DuPont, BASF, Sygenta, Mosanto, various American oil companies travel to that part of the world quite regularly.
Public shaming them, accusing them of demanding profits over the health and safety of the public.
If you want to do face to face business in a hot zone then you'll have to be quarantined and/or tested before reentering the country.
We aren't there yet but how it will or should work is a good question and it needs to be worked out.
-
What about backlash from business? DuPont, BASF, Sygenta, Mosanto, various American oil companies travel to that part of the world quite regularly.
I guess it was ignored missed before.
Here, I'll spell it out.
HOW TO ENACT A TRAVEL BAN FROM A COUNTRY:
1. Stop issuing visas to individuals from that country.
2. Freeze ALL existing Visas from that country.
3. Deny entrance anyone whose travel itinerary indicates origin from that country
4. Deny entrance to anyone whose passport indicates travel through or from that country
5. IF you allow individuals from that country, quarantine them upon arrival in your own country.
6. Ban any airline from landing if they do not assist in the above.
Will some get through? Very likely.
The process to do so is significantly harder now and doesn't entail walking into Monrovia's airport and buying a ticket to Dallas.
-
What about backlash from business? DuPont, BASF, Sygenta, Mosanto, various American oil companies travel to that part of the world quite regularly.
it's almost as if you aren't reading...
-
it's almost as if you aren't reading...
I am reading it but nothing is black and white. Just because I question or disagree with something doesn't mean either side is right.
I'm also sort of surprised that small government people want the government to solve the problem.
-
I am reading it but nothing is black and white. Just because I question or disagree with something doesn't mean either side is right.
I'm also sort of surprised that small government people want the government to solve the problem.
Most of even the mouth-frothiest libertarians will agree that territorial sovereignty/integrity and public health are legitimate government mandates.
-
National defense and border security seem to OK with most small government types.
-
Most of even the mouth-frothiest libertarians will agree that territorial sovereignty/integrity and public health are legitimate government mandates.
QFT and, where's the "like" button?
-
If we could do it at Ellis Island in the early 1900's then we sure as hell could do it now. And again, yes some will leak through, but "a few" is sure a hell of lot better then "all".
Again. The only way this will "burn out" is to build a wall around it. That's what a quarantine does:
STOP THE SPREAD
Why is that so *expletive deleted*ing hard to understand? No treatment, no cure, no vaccine. The only thing we can do is:
STOP THE SPREAD
Failing to do so is criminal in that you condemn hundreds/thousands/millions of people to death. Might as will crank up the ovens (again) if that's the case.
It's genocide(s). Potentially on a scale not seen since the 1920's-1940's and at a rate that rivals the Black Death.
-
Several good articles in today's WATI
How our "we know better" have condemn millions...
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/oct/14/charles-hurt-fight-the-spread-of-ebola-by-wiping-o/
Why I don't believe the CDC (or any other part of the .gov) anymore:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/oct/15/crowley-president-obama-ebola-and-the-total-collap/
Lies built upon mind-boggling incompetence:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/oct/15/joseph-curl-obamas-spectacular-incompetence-turns-/
Doesn't matter how many Americans have to die, we have to protect the President's upcoming blanket Illegal Alien Amnesty, so that there will forever be a Democrat Majority in both houses and President. "Party Before Country", people !! Even if it has to be built upon a pile of dead bodies.
-
I am reading it but nothing is black and white. Just because I question or disagree with something doesn't mean either side is right.
I'm also sort of surprised that small government people want the government to solve the problem.
These things are perfectly fine with most small government types because it's a valid function of government. Small governemt doesn't mean no government.
-
These things are perfectly fine with most small government types because it's a valid function of government. Small governemt doesn't mean no government.
Bingo!! These are the things the .gov is tasked with:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Let's look at the relevant parts:
Domestic Tranquility: Having a deadly disease run rampant will not insure domestic tranquility.
Common Defense: There are more then just Indians and overseas invaders to defend against.
Promote the general welfare: Preventing disease(s) would fit here as well.
Secure the Blessing of Liberty: Hard to pass that on when (and they) are dead.
Improving and securing public health is part and parcel of Civilization and what .gov should be doing.
-
These things are perfectly fine with most small government types because it's a valid function of government. Small governemt doesn't mean no government.
He wasn't serious. It was a smarmy jab.
-
http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/220925-cdc-ebola-patient-may-have-had-symptoms-aboard-flight
A second Texas nurse diagnosed with Ebola who flew on a commercial flight with 132 others might have shown symptoms of the disease while aboard the flight.
Frontier CEO Dave Siegel said in a message to employees Wednesday evening that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention notified the company that the passenger might have shown symptoms "earlier than initially suspected; including the possibility of possessing symptoms while onboard the flight."
Siegel said the airplane, which apparently made five additional trips after the one with Vinson, will remain out of service and be cleaned a fourth time. He also noted that "out of an abundance of caution" the company had put six crew members on paid leave for 21 days, the maximum incubation period for the virus.
-
I'm also sort of surprised that small government people want the government to solve the problem.
I am so damned tired of this automatic BS response by libs-progs, whatever-
Standard load of crap- want less government regulation? that means we all run right out and tear down the traffic lights so we can run over grannies, get rid of the EPA and pour all our waste oil down the storm drain, and rub pesticides on the lettuce-
This kind of disingenuous BS is a pollutant to intelligent discourse. Anyone around here should know better.
And IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE -all we are asking is that the Government actually DO the job it was created FOR, it's FIRST PRINCIPAL, to Provide for the security of the PEOPLE of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Yes, we want them to do their job, the job they were tasked with from day one.
-
FTR, I would block all citizens/residents of the W African countries with ebola in a travel ban, not just travelers through.
We do so little for-profit business over there it is lost in rounding errors. And the significant business we do (oil from Nigeria) can be handled almost 100% hands-off with the boat trip pretty much being its own 21-day quarantine. I can almost guarantee you American oil execs are not chomping at the bit to jump into an ebola epidemic.
-
FTR, I would block all citizens/residents of the W African countries with ebola in a travel ban, not just travelers through.
We do so little for-profit business over there it is lost in rounding errors. And the significant business we do (oil from Nigeria) can be handled almost 100% hands-off with the boat trip pretty much being its own 21-day quarantine. I can almost guarantee you American oil execs are not chomping at the bit to jump into an ebola epidemic.
Nigeria already cleaned up their ebola problem through some pretty draconian measures... The US having open borders with the ebola-lands could come back to bite us if Nigeria refuses to do business do to an ebola epidemic in our country.
Let that sink in.
Nigeria could stop commerce with the US if we become an ebola threat to them.
-
Why is Ebola spreading? Just look at the flippant, dismissive attitudes about the seriousness of the disease here and elsewhere...yeah, it's easy to say "well don't come into contact with an Ebola patient" but it's damn hard to tell who is a carrier of the disease before it shows the more advanced symptoms...it may not be airborne but with the way it spreads it doesn't necessarily have to be to start a pandemic, even in a "first world nation" where it is supposedly "impossible"
-
Nigeria already cleaned up their ebola problem through some pretty draconian measures... The US having open borders with the ebola-lands could come back to bite us if Nigeria refuses to do business do to an ebola epidemic in our country.
Let that sink in.
Nigeria could stop commerce with the US if we become an ebola threat to them.
Yes, and the sun could potentially go dark, freezing all life on Earth.
Both events are possible, but are equally likely to occur this fiscal year.
-
Looks like Belize knows how to take it seriously ... [ar15]
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2014/10/17/texas-based-carnival-magic-cruise-ship-stuck-at-sea-with-4633-passengers-and-dallas-healthcare-worker-with-ebola-symptoms-belize-refuses-port-entry-belizeans-saying-sink-ship-armed-belize/#more-90667
Texas-Based Carnival Magic Cruise Ship Stuck At Sea With 4,633 Passengers and Dallas Healthcare Worker With Ebola Symptoms – Belize Refuses Port Entry – Belizeans Saying “Sink Ship” – Armed Belize Coast Guard Keeping Ship At Sea…
The President of Belize’s quarantine may have come too late for Belize: “In a late night official press release issued by the Belize Press Office, the Belize government offered its version of the Belize Ebola incident. It stresses that while the patient did not disembark in Belize, it does not address the question that thousands of cruise ship passengers that may have had contact with the patient(s) did in fact disembark and tour Belize City today…”
-
Lots missing and contradictory in that story. But that's typical
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Yea Belize did great. They made some noise but let all the other passengers off the ship for their mandatory shopping trip
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Yea Belize did great. They made some noise but let all the other passengers off the ship for their mandatory shopping trip
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Business and money for the win, Alex.
-
It shows that politicians are universally stupid
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
If I were carnival I would reroute from now on. Belize would be off the list. Belize needs them more than they need Belize
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Because I'm not quite clear on this-
Someone who is "self-quarantined" and "monitored" for Ebola, after being exposed to Patient Zero, WENT ON A CRUISE WITH 3000+ OTHER PEOPLE IN A CONFINED SPACE!?!?!?
-
This is starting. To look like a really bad movie [popcorn]
-
This is starting. To look like a really bad movie [popcorn]
If it mutates into huge spiders on that ship we're officially living in a SyFy Original motion picture.
I also am wondering how frakking stupid texas nurses are. They KNOW that guy had ebola. Postpone travel for a little bit.
My wife's hospital is considering plans to keep all workers who contact any ebola patients in the hospital for 21 days. A mini little wing just for the workers, just to make sure. Texas Presby didn't just send them home, but approved vacation time. At min. you'd think another healthcare worker would want to check on them until the incubation period was up.
-
I also am wondering how frakking stupid texas nurses are. They KNOW that guy had ebola. Postpone travel for a little bit.
The problem is that they had the "experts" at CDC telling them all that there was no risk, that the protocols we now know didn't even exist were more than enough to keep them completely safe, and that they were OK to travel until after the ship left port. That type of authoritative answer is supposed to be something you can count on even when it contradicts your limited knowledge of a situation you've never had to deal with before, never expected to have to deal with, and probably never even saw much detail about in your textbooks.
-
She was a supervisor in the lab. She MAY have handles his samples. And dollars to donuts she's fine
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
If it mutates into huge spiders on that ship we're officially living in a SyFy Original motion picture
Or Ebolanado.
-
Sharkbola!
-
If it mutates into huge spiders on that ship we're officially living in a SyFy Original motion picture.
Only if it mutates to social spiders, actually that might make for an interesting but really cheesy horror flick.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_spider
-
"Of course, you can’t expect our government to be as competent as Nigeria’s."
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2014/10/ebola-panic-and-the-limits-of-political-sanity.php
No explanation offered by the White House or the CDC about our refusal to impose a travel ban on Liberian or other visitors from affected west African countries to the United States makes sense, or so it seems to me. Indeed, what has been said (again, so it seems to me) ranges from the nonsensical to the absurd, from BS to balderdash. If a travel ban would serve to protect American citizens and institutions, however imperfectly, what is the rationale for refusing to impose one?
=================
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AF_EBOLA_AFRICA_CONTAINMENT?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-10-16-14-24-38
Africa stems Ebola via border closings, luck
Health officials battling the Ebola outbreak that has killed more than 4,500 people in West Africa have managed to limit its spread on the continent to five countries - and two of them appear to have snuffed out the disease.
The developments constitute a modest success in an otherwise bleak situation.
Officials credit tighter border controls, good patient-tracking and other medical practices, and just plain luck with keeping Ebola confined mostly to Liberia, Sierra Leone and Guinea since the outbreak was first identified nearly seven months ago.
-
The problem is that they had the "experts" at CDC telling them all that there was no risk, that the protocols we now know didn't even exist were more than enough to keep them completely safe, and that they were OK to travel until after the ship left port. That type of authoritative answer is supposed to be something you can count on even when it contradicts your limited knowledge of a situation you've never had to deal with before, never expected to have to deal with, and probably never even saw much detail about in your textbooks.
You know how we feel about the ATF? That's how my wife and her colleagues feel about fed.gov health agencies, CDC included. And that is not a new opinion.
-
You know how we feel about the ATF? That's how my wife and her colleagues feel about fed.gov health agencies, CDC included. And that is not a new opinion.
In ambulatory care, we have a new four-word curse phrase, courtesy of the Feds: patient-centered medical home.
-
You know how we feel about the ATF? That's how my wife and her colleagues feel about fed.gov health agencies, CDC included. And that is not a new opinion.
ATF doesn't put out safe firearm handling guidelines.
If they did, I'd bet a lot of people would cite them as an authoritative source, even if they were wrong.
-
Oh lovely.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/10/17/rep-peter-king-serious-concerns-about-nigerian-passenger-who-reportedly-vomited-died-on-flight-to-jfk/
“These individuals transit the airport with the rest of the traveling population, including using the restrooms,” King wrote. “It is only after they arrive at the Customs and Border Patrol primary screening location that they are separated and sent to secondary inspection for a medical check and to complete the questionnaire.”
-
http://www.politico.com/story/2014/10/travel-ban-flights-ebola-111961.html?hp=f1
"Why a travel ban wouldn't work"
A breathtakingly shortsighted article.
Let me break each one down:
1. It would choke off aid and could worsen the outbreak
Travel goes both ways, and cutting off transport from West Africa would hamper the flow of medical supplies and aid workers into the afflicted region. That could allow the disease to spread further, allowing more cases to crop up around the world, including the United States.
Flights can still go IN. We're just stopping the out. You are concerned about aid? PROVIDE it with military planes. (Also you can have complete separation of the workers on the plane and the ground. Plane drops the stuff off, workers come get it after they taxi away.) And the workers? It's now part of the cost of providing the aid. If you want to come back, you go through a 21 day quarantine before getting on said military planes.
2. It would make it harder to track infected people
Experts say a travel ban would make people less likely to seek treatment or be honest about any contacts they have had with Ebola patients. And it could encourage people to leave West Africa in other ways before heading to the U.S., making them harder to track.
I am absolutely astounded by this one. We can't track an individual's origin? The nearby countries aren't already banning travel? We can't check someone's passport? We can't check a travel itinerary.
Yes, people will lie and people will get false travel documents. Those things take TIME and will make the symptoms more likely to appear before boarding. I honestly cannot believe these hacks are trying this as an excuse.
3. Lawmakers are long on opinions, short on practical ideas
Several lawmakers, mostly Republicans, have suggested the administration impose travel restrictions but have offered little in the way of how to implement a ban.
I'm sorry, a travel ban ISN'T HARD. Several other countries have already implemented one. How is "OH YEAH, HOW'S IT GOING TO WORK!!!???" an argument?
4. The math doesn’t add up
Health officials say the best way to control the outbreak is to stop the disease at its source. The methods employed to stop it from spreading elsewhere involve conducting airport screenings for West African travelers, both when they leave the area and when they land at their final destination.
So, this is one is saying the costs outweigh the benefits. As I've noted, they have inflated the costs and downplayed the benefits. This one (like the one before it) isn't really a new argument. It's just basically saying that the first two arguments mean we can't do it.
Honestly, this is the best the weasels can come up with?
-
Oh lovely.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/10/17/rep-peter-king-serious-concerns-about-nigerian-passenger-who-reportedly-vomited-died-on-flight-to-jfk/
I saw that one yesterday.
If they checked the deceased and cleared him of ebola, he was probably clear of ebola. If he was vomiting before suddenly dying, it could mean something as common as a heart attack or stroke. IOW, if he wasn't bleeding out of some or all of his orifices/eyes, it wouldn't be a bad assumption that he didn't die of ebola. He also came from Nigeria, which is reputedly clear of ebola.
Peter King is making a fool out of himself on this one, where there are very grave and legitimate concerns elsewhere that would better merit his attention.
-
Peter King is making a fool out of himself on this one, where there are very grave and legitimate concerns elsewhere that would better merit his attention.
When doesn't he make a fool of himself? He is the Joe Biden of the GOP. :)
-
When doesn't he make a fool of himself? He is the Joe Biden of the GOP. :)
I was coming to edit brimic's line to "Peter King is a fool."
ETA: Just a bit less gaffe-ably affable than Biden.
-
When doesn't he make a fool of himself? He is the Joe Biden of the GOP. :)
True dat.
-
I saw that one yesterday.
If they checked the deceased and cleared him of ebola, he was probably clear of ebola. If he was vomiting before suddenly dying, it could mean something as common as a heart attack or stroke. IOW, if he wasn't bleeding out of some or all of his orifices/eyes, it wouldn't be a bad assumption that he didn't die of ebola. He also came from Nigeria, which is reputedly clear of ebola.
Peter King is making a fool out of himself on this one, where there are very grave and legitimate concerns elsewhere that would better merit his attention.
I see others already curb-stomped his reputation. I'll just give it the old "+1."
-
Now a scare at the Pentagon. (http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/10/breaking-news-ebola-scare-closses-pentagon-entrance-restricts-parking-108188.html) The lady involved was supposedly in West Africa recently, got off a bus and puked in the parking lot. Hopefully it was just something she ate or a common stomach bug.
I suppose this will go on for awhile yet, another scare every day or two.
-
Peter king is the kinda guy who reaches across normal philosophical chasms and allows diverse perspective to find common ground
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Now a scare at the Pentagon. (http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/10/breaking-news-ebola-scare-closses-pentagon-entrance-restricts-parking-108188.html) The lady involved was supposedly in West Africa recently, got off a bus and puked in the parking lot. Hopefully it was just something she ate or a common stomach bug.
I suppose this will go on for awhile yet, another scare every day or two.
We just need to drop leaflets over western africa with maps to NSA installations that are labeled 'ebola cure here!' :laugh:
-
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-09-23/inside-an-ebola-protective-suit-that-feels-115-degrees.html
Brimic will also get a kick out of this: inside an ebola suit.
-
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/s403x403/1932468_10152558235516026_5086503606066987409_n.png?oh=d67ab71cf98dab9c4a3b5debcc9b4879&oe=54BA809B&__gda__=1421932126_0d112cbdddef4960c1e50e312503d127)
-
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-09-23/inside-an-ebola-protective-suit-that-feels-115-degrees.html
Brimic will also get a kick out of this: inside an ebola suit.
Those look like saranex- no reason to not douse them in bleach before doffing- unless bleach isn't available.
My coworker and I were charging a few hundred kilos of aluminum chloride to a reactor once wearing similar saranex garb. He got overheated, I told him to go outside and get some fresh air. He took his suit off without being cautious and caught some HCl fumes which weren't good for his chronic asthma.
After that incident, I was pretty much just me handling the aluminum chloride, and I would walk outside to be hosed off with a garden hose before degowning.
-
He took his suit off without being cautious and caught some HCl fumes which weren't good for his chronic asthma.
Not fun. OTOH, deliming the toilet is pretty much how I check respirator fit and function; if I can see the vapor coming up out of the bowl, but don't smell anything except the rubber seal, I know the respirator is working right.
-
Canada to start shipping experimental vaccine on Monday (http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/10/18/canada_to_start_shipping_experimental_ebola_vaccine_on_monday.html)
-
http://www.click2houston.com/news/blood-sample-taken-from-hospital-worker-in-ebola-isolation-aboard-carnival-cruise-ship/29216240
Looks like the cruise ship nurse is negative.
-
Great news for about about 4000 people!
They should still throw the bitch overboard, if only to make an example for anyone else who acts that selfishly in the future.
-
Great news for about about 4000 people!
They should still throw the bitch overboard, if only to make an example for anyone else who acts that selfishly in the future.
Meh. She didn't have symptoms and the other nurses weren't even diagnosed until several days after the cruise left.
Hindsight, this should have been a total lockdown of the personnel involved. But we're just realizing in the days after that the CDC has it's head up it's ass.
-
So so far the self reporting is working ? No failures of a zomg nature and it's therefore obviously flawed ? We need to do lockdowns? What about liberty? It's funny some of the folk advocating for more gov oppression . Could get tricky if they get their way with the 10's of thousands of false alarms. Maybe we can rename the FEMA camps liberty camps?
And look here
http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/219638-ron-paul-warns-against-overreaction-to-ebola
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
So so far the self reporting is working ? No failures of a zomg nature and it's therefore obviously flawed ? We need to do lockdowns? What about liberty? It's funny some of the folk advocating for more gov oppression . Could get tricky if they get their way with the 10's of thousands of false alarms. Maybe we can rename the FEMA camps liberty camps?
And look here
http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/219638-ron-paul-warns-against-overreaction-to-ebola
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Sweet baby xenu on a flaming pogo stick. Did I *expletive deleted*ing say I am okay with quarnatining thousands of people? Did I miss something in my post?
Like it or not, and I'm not a fan, the government has legal authority to do so, though.
And it's a hindsight discussion. Obviously, nobody realized that the protocols broke down for some reason in the treatment of patient 0. They *expletive deleted*ed up. Whether the protocols were bad to begin with, or the guidlines were bad, someone dropped the ball at the outset. I'm saying that in hindsight, if they had realized that, they should have considered quarantining the nurses.
Like it or not, we live in a country that has socialized health care and public health.
But if you'd like to continue to only make your arguments with links and hyporbole....oh, wait.... :facepalm:
-
In the interests of accuracy, I point out that the healthcare worker on the cruise ship was actually a lab supervisor, who may have handled a lab sample of Mr. Duncan. Having worked in a hospital lab before, the potential for transmission to a lab worker is much, much less than it would be for a nurse providing hands-on care to Mr. Duncan.
-
I suspect that the nurses got contaminated getting out of their suits. And I still think the total lockdown talk is a bit of what has sadly become typical american hysteria.
Or has something changed I missed. Still no Americans dead? 2 healthcare folks sick same vector? First patient?
Second guessing notwithstanding that's not too bad. I say the biggest fail was in the patient getting released, and no one in the folks he had contact with is sick yet. And that's allegedly a failure in the info collected in the er not getting in front of the docs who sent him home.
You don't like the Ron Paul link? Blasphemer!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
I suspect that the nurses got contaminated getting out of their suits. And I still think the total lockdown talk is a bit of what has sadly become typical american hysteria.
Or has something changed I missed. Still no Americans dead? 2 healthcare folks sick same vector? First patient?
Second guessing notwithstanding that's not too bad. I say the biggest fail was in the patient getting released, and no one in the folks he had contact with is sick yet. And that's allegedly a failure in the info collected in the er not getting in front of the docs who sent him home.
You don't like the Ron Paul link? Blasphemer!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Not sure you're comprehending my post.
-
I think my response was directed to your idea that a complete lockdown of the medical folks woulda been warranted.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
I think the current administration can and is playing this. When it turns out not to be the end if the world they get to play savior. And yea I think a great many folks are stupid enough to fall for that . It's a win win for them. They can't lose. If things get worse they just throw a few folk under the bus. The same morons will love em for that . Heck
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
I think my response was directed to your idea that a complete lockdown of the medical folks woulda been warranted.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
In hindsight. If they realized that the protocols had been breached.
But we know that most likely, they didn't know. Which is also disturbing.
Notice you don't see me expecting this to be an outbreak, pandemic or epidemic.
I predict less than a dozen cases over a year. I predict more people will drown today in the US than die from Ebola over the entire next year.
However, I also feel that Uncle Sam has it's head so far up it's ass that they are not inspiring any confidence in the handling of this fun bug. Ebola is not an unknown quantity. It's been in Africa for a long time. We've been studying it a long time.
Several African nations have shut this bastard down and are no longer "hot zones".
-
Indeed much of the study has been done here. And that's where the protocols were born. Not on a blog.
I am looking at all the frantic waving of hands in dismay and disgust.
And it's not all estrogen based either more the pity and shame.
And my reply earlier was much too narrowly coached as a reply to you. You definitely are not one of the hand flutterers. Sorry .
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
I think the current administration can and is playing this. When it turns out not to be the end if the world they get to play savior. And yea I think a great many folks are stupid enough to fall for that . It's a win win for them. They can't lose. If things get worse they just throw a few folk under the bus. The same morons will love em for that . Heck
Yep, and I think they are evil enough bring infected people here to infect us and cause a few ebola deaths -- just so they will have something to save us from. They think they can control it well enough to have a scary but small and manageable crisis.
-
I wish I could disagree emphatically. Can't . Sorry for both our luck
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Yep, and I think they are evil enough bring infected people here to infect us and cause a few ebola deaths -- just so they will have something to save us from. They think they can control it well enough to have a scary but small and manageable crisis.
October Surprise, but this one blew up off schedule.
-
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/p206x206/10352879_362069700619704_843541318879680416_n.jpg?oh=ea2713b8565de9615660222d4dfaa1bc&oe=54F2B16D&__gda__=1421343812_3549d8e7f55271c277fe09f79290adf0)
-
Because I'm not quite clear on this-
Someone who is "self-quarantined" and "monitored" for Ebola, after being exposed to Patient Zero, WENT ON A CRUISE WITH 3000+ OTHER PEOPLE IN A CONFINED SPACE!?!?!?
Yeah. Like the network medical reporter (an M.D.) who self-quarantined herself after being over there and then went out to a fast food joint to pick up dinner. Or the Yalies who went to Liberia so they could write a computer program to track infections (What? It's not possible to write computer programs in New Haven? Who knew?) and then came home to "self-quarantine." Problem is, to get home they had to fly several hours in an airplane with a few hundred other people. Then they had to process through immigration and customs in close proximity to lots of other people. Assuming they returned to the U.S. through JFK in New York, that's about 80 miles from New Haven and they probably traveled by bus or limousine. So after potentially exposing probably at least a thousand people -- they THEN shut the doors to their apartments and "self-quarantined"?
Why is it that nobody in authority in this God-forsaken country understands what "Q-U-A-R-A-N-T-I-N-E" means? It's not difficult: "Keep potentially sick people away from people who aren't sick."
-
2. It would make it harder to track infected people
Experts say a travel ban would make people less likely to seek treatment or be honest about any contacts they have had with Ebola patients. And it could encourage people to leave West Africa in other ways before heading to the U.S., making them harder to track.
This is from the country that, a few years ago, managed to trace a single infected COW from a ranch in Canada to a barn in the U.S. And cows don't travel with tickets and passports.
-
In the interests of accuracy, I point out that the healthcare worker on the cruise ship was actually a lab supervisor, who may have handled a lab sample of Mr. Duncan. Having worked in a hospital lab before, the potential for transmission to a lab worker is much, much less than it would be for a nurse providing hands-on care to Mr. Duncan.
My sister-in-law WAS a lab technician in a private lab. She quit that line of work about 20 years ago because she considered the risk of infection from other blood-born pathogens unacceptably high. True, she was a tech rather than a supervisor, but the stuff is in the lab, and Murphy's Law always applies.
-
Cows don't buy fake documents or sneak across borders to get out of a hot zone. Nor would one be motivated to do whatever it takes to get a kid treated.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Several African nations have shut this bastard down and are no longer "hot zones".
I thought only three West African countries were "hot zones," and the rest of the nearby countries moved proactively to close their borders, which is why they aren't hot zones. Of the three that were initially clobbered, I believe only one has it under some semblance of control -- and that may only be due to under-reporting of new cases.
-
Yea and there is the 42 day incubation period wild card too. In some places they are so jacked up they are treating at home. That can cause under reporting of both cases and deaths
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Gotta remember, it is pretty much only white folks who count deaths/bodies in Africa. Scare the white folks off and the bodies don't get counted. And the white folks seem plenty scared of Liberia these days.
http://www.amazon.com/Out-Of-America-Confronts-Africa/dp/0465001882
-
Cows don't buy fake documents or sneak across borders to get out of a hot zone. Nor would one be motivated to do whatever it takes to get a kid treated.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
What's a pass the snuff fake passport going for in Liberia these days? I'm guess than your average Liberian can shake.
And again we circle back to the fact that just because someone might through doesn't mean it won't stop a fair chunk.
-
Cows don't buy fake documents or sneak across borders to get out of a hot zone. Nor would one be motivated to do whatever it takes to get a kid treated.
That's goatist!
-
The family of Duncan in Dallas has passed the 21 day incubation period.
While I still wonder how long they may have been exposed to waste in the house that might of had viable virus on it.....it would seem they are likely out of the woods.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
The family of Duncan in Dallas has passed the 21 day incubation period.
While I still wonder how long they may have been exposed to waste in the house that might of had viable virus on it.....it would seem they are likely out of the woods.
Were they ever moved out of the apartment? How well was the apartment actually sanitized? Sure, the virus won't survive long out in the open, but how long can it live in a bit of semifluid waste buried in the corner of the carpet or similar.
-
They were in the apt for 3 or 4 days with him sick and at least 3 days before they removed tge bedding and such. If anyone shoulda caught it they were the ones
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
-
http://accordingtohoyt.com/2014/10/19/a-fatal-eclipse-of-trust/
-
Went to a DR appointment today, when I checked in they asked if I had been to the Ebola areas of Africa in the past 21 days or in close contact with people that have been there.
-
They were in the apt for 3 or 4 days with him sick and at least 3 days before they removed tge bedding and such. If anyone shoulda caught it they were the ones
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
The length of contact only makes me question the timeline. Do we really know their last exposure date?
Hopefully the nurses pull through and nobody gets it from that flight.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Last exposure date I would feel good about is when they left the apt.
They should be outa quarantine now
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
My question would be how long does the virus last outside the body. I have heard some don't last long at all, but others can last a day or two.
-
This one is fragile
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
My question would be how long does the virus last outside the body. I have heard some don't last long at all, but others can last a day or two.
From the CDC
How long does Ebola live outside the body?
Ebola is killed with hospital-grade disinfectants (such as household bleach). Ebola dried on surfaces such as doorknobs and countertops can survive for several hours; however, virus in body fluids (such as blood) can survive up to several days at room temperature.
I read somewhere that Ebola can be viable for 3-4 days in dead people who were infected.
-
From the CDC
I read somewhere that Ebola can be viable for 3-4 days in dead people who were infected.
The beginning of the Undead.
-
My question would be how long does the virus last outside the body. I have heard some don't last long at all, but others can last a day or two.
Cannot remember which scare-the-crap-out-of-you source it was, but somebody has suggested that Ebola can live for several months in the semen/sperm of a man who has had and beaten Ebola.
Anybody want to ask that Doc that beat death if he tested his semen/sperm before he went and celebrated beating death?
And just to add more paranoia - can Ebola live in a woman's eggs? And if so, would a child born from that fertilized egg be capable of transmitting the virus even if it had developed antibodies during the pregnancy?
stay safe.
-
Cannot remember which scare-the-crap-out-of-you source it was, but somebody has suggested that Ebola can live for several months in the semen/sperm of a man who has had and beaten Ebola.
60 days IIRC.
-
I've been afk and not keeping up with the news. Where are we at infection/death wise in America?
-
Same place 1 dead came here sick two infected by him sick 100's of thousands terrified and acting foolish. Case in point kids from rawanda forced to stay home from school,in jersey .
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Went to a DR appointment today, when I checked in they asked if I had been to the Ebola areas of Africa in the past 21 days or in close contact with people that have been there.
Should have answered, "Yep, second to last August this year. Caught Ebola and died three weeks later. Now can we get on with my appointment?"
-
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0d6qseCMAAeP_c.jpg)
-
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0d6qseCMAAeP_c.jpg)
ShareBooked
-
Rick Perry: From Zero to S**t Wired Tight
Say what you want about Governor Goodhair, he has jumped on ebola with both feet and intends to stomp it to death with his Naconas.
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/local/prognosis/article/Texas-Ebola-plans-from-Gov-Perry-s-task-force-5837052.php
Perry announces procedure for potential future Ebola cases:
Governor Rick Perry announced Tuesday that any future Ebola cases will be treated at UTMB Galveston or at Methodist Richardson. Patients in Richardson would see UT Southwestern doctors and have their lab work done at Parkland's lab. WFAA's Janet St. James also reports that Parkland will provide a 50-person unit for quick Ebola response. Perry says the new setups will be ready in the next 24 hours. The new facilities are part of a plan by the newly formed Texas Task Force on Infectious Diseases, led by Dr. Brett Giroir(1).
• UT Southwestern Medical Center is contributing the expertise of physicians experienced in infectious disease, critical care and other specialties, and some nursing professionals as staffing requires.
• Methodist Health System is allowing the use of an entire floor of the Methodist Campus for Continuing Care in Richardson, including an ICU wing well suited for the care of infectious disease patients. They will provide some modifications for the critical steps of decontamination, laboratory equipment and other dedicated personnel for IT and biomedical support. Ebola and/or other infectious disease patients can be safely isolated
• Parkland Hospital has already begun transferring critical equipment such as personal protective equipment, IV fluids and laboratory supplies to the Methodist facility. In addition, Parkland will provide nurses, pharmacists, respiratory therapists and lab technicians.
More at the linky.
This makes sense, all the way around.
Methodist Richardson is one of the smaller hospitals both in the Methodist system and in N Texas. 18 bed ER & 125 beds elsewhere. If they have to shut everything else down to service ebola patients and collateral damage, it won't take out a huge chunk of the N Texas medical infrastructure like what happened at Presby Dallas. Damn good idea.
UTSW docs & nurses work at Parkland, the monster county hospital renowned for trauma surgery and all that jazz. Yes, some are baby docs, but the older docs there have beau coup experience.
Parkland has both large trauma and medicine (non-trauma) ICUs and their ICU trauma step-down is equivalent to most hospital's ICU. Parkland also has deep resources in all the other aspects of hospital/health care.
I am not familiar with UTMB Galveston, but I assume it is the big public hospital down there south on the Gulf coast.
Smart folk have put some serious thought into this. My respect for Perry gone up a few notches.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ojTKkfgvwvU#t=12
(1) Not a political fixer. CEO of Texas A&M Health Science Center. As a doc he specialized in infectious diseases. Also worked for mf-ing DARPA. Perry chose a no-s**t Top Man to run his Task Force on Infectious Disease Preparedness and Response. BHO, were he educable, could learn something from this. Once again Texas A&M will save the world. Or at least keep it from sliding into a New Dark Age.
-
Wait a governor actually governing? Un possible
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Rick Perry: From Zero to S**t Wired Tight
Say what you want about Governor Goodhair, he has jumped on ebola with both feet and intends to stomp it to death with his Naconas.
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/local/prognosis/article/Texas-Ebola-plans-from-Gov-Perry-s-task-force-5837052.php
More at the linky.
This makes sense, all the way around.
Methodist Richardson is one of the smaller hospitals both in the Methodist system and in N Texas. 18 bed ER & 125 beds elsewhere. If they have to shut everything else down to service ebola patients and collateral damage, it won't take out a huge chunk of the N Texas medical infrastructure like what happened at Presby Dallas. Damn good idea.
UTSW docs & nurses work at Parkland, the monster county hospital renowned for trauma surgery and all that jazz. Yes, some are baby docs, but the older docs there have beau coup experience.
Parkland has both large trauma and medicine (non-trauma) ICUs and their ICU trauma step-down is equivalent to most hospital's ICU. Parkland also has deep resources in all the other aspects of hospital/health care.
I am not familiar with UTMB Galveston, but I assume it is the big public hospital down there south on the Gulf coast.
Smart folk have put some serious thought into this. My respect for Perry gone up a few notches.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ojTKkfgvwvU#t=12
(1) Not a political fixer. CEO of Texas A&M Health Science Center. As a doc he specialized in infectious diseases. Also worked for mf-ing DARPA. Perry chose a no-s**t Top Man to run his Task Force on Infectious Disease Preparedness and Response. BHO, were he educable, could learn something from this. Once again Texas A&M will save the world. Or at least keep it from sliding into a New Dark Age.
So...in the what, two months since patient 0, Gov. Perry identified the need to fix a potential problem, put someone in charge of fixing the problem who knows about said problem, and then put forth a common sense solution on fixing the problem? and people wonder why I support secession.
My prediction? Election cycle and other crisis and we'll forget all about Ebola. We'll never hear any sort of solution for future outbreaks from the fed.gov Ebloa Czar.
-
So...in the what, two months since patient 0,
Duncan was admitted to the hospital 9-28, and Ebola confirmed on 9-30. Nurse Pham got sick on 10-10, so this was only 22 days after the confirmation of Patient Zero, and just 11 days after the first evidence of anyone becoming infected in the US.
-
Wearing my hospital administration hat for a moment, I wonder how this is being paid for by the hospitals in Texas who are participating in Governor Perry's response. Is the state kicking in some money, or are the hospitals going to eat the cost of these preparations that may never be used?
-
Wearing my hospital administration hat for a moment, I wonder how this is being paid for by the hospitals in Texas who are participating in Governor Perry's response. Is the state kicking in some money, or are the hospitals going to eat the cost of these preparations that may never be used?
First one to speak up about the price gets the bill. Thanks for your contribution :P
-
Oh noez, moars ebolaz!
http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/health/chi-ebola-20141023-story.html#page=1
-
Second nurses family says she's ebola free. No confirmation
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Oh noez, moars ebolaz!
http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/health/chi-ebola-20141023-story.html#page=1
Those new protocols sure are working well, aren't they?
Guess he arrived here in "pre-ebopla" state and only became "ebolazized" after he got to his apartment.
And can I interest you in some oceanfront property in New Mexico?
stay safe.
-
And now another doctor who was in Africa, treating Ebola patients, has been confirmed to be infected.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/24/nyregion/craig-spencer-is-tested-for-ebola-virus-at-bellevue-hospital-in-new-york-city.html
What is it with doctors who don't understand the need for quarantine after potential exposure?
-
And now another doctor who was in Africa, treating Ebola patients, has been confirmed to be infected.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/24/nyregion/craig-spencer-is-tested-for-ebola-virus-at-bellevue-hospital-in-new-york-city.html
What is it with doctors who don't understand the need for quarantine after potential exposure?
Would that be quarantine immediately after getting away from the ebola patient treatment area, or quarantine after arriving on a flight from Ebolaland to some Europrean country for a few days lay-over, or quarantine after you get home and have been feeling queasy and such-like for three days?
We wouldn't want anybody to go into premature quarantine, would we?
:facepalm:
stay safe.
-
And now another doctor who was in Africa, treating Ebola patients, has been confirmed to be infected.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/24/nyregion/craig-spencer-is-tested-for-ebola-virus-at-bellevue-hospital-in-new-york-city.html
What is it with doctors who don't understand the need for quarantine after potential exposure?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris)
-
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris)
They don;t teach the classics much in school anymore.
-
But we have the 2 nurses cleared one released today
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Would that be quarantine immediately after getting away from the ebola patient treatment area, or quarantine after arriving on a flight from Ebolaland to some Europrean country for a few days lay-over, or quarantine after you get home and have been feeling queasy and such-like for three days?
We wouldn't want anybody to go into premature quarantine, would we?
What's your idea of "premature" quarantine? The purpose of quarantine is to keep ill or potentially-ill people separated from non-exposed people so more people won't be infected with whatever the disease du jour is. How would quarantine immediately following their last contact with exposed or potentially exposed patients in any way be "premature"? Ideally, then those who choose to treat Ebola patients in Africa should be quarantined for 21 days before being allowed to leave Africa.
If we're going to insist on allowing them to travel to the U.S., there should be a quarantine facility at or near each airport of entry, and all such travelers should be quarantined there. Heck, we quarantine animals entering from other countries -- aren't the lives of people more valuable than the lives of animals? But, allowing them to travel risks exposing unknown numbers (but at least in the hundreds) of people before initiating quarantine. That just doesn't make sense to me.
-
Hawkmoon -
Sorry I left off the snark tag. Didn't mean to make anybody think I was serious about "premature" quarantine.
But in response to your question - can you say "Ellis Island"? They processed thousands of people per day through there with the most rudimentary of physical exams, but history shows they did a good job of stopping diseases like TB, measles, typhoid/cholera from landing. According to family lore my great-grandfather was "sequestered" for 2 weeks along with everybody else in his steerage compartment because they thought one little kid had TB.
Preferrably I would like to see holding cells where folks leaving the area where Ebola patients are being treated get to stay for the 21-day waiting game. Cells because it keeps them from popping out to get some take-out food, and close to the treatment area/facility because in case they show symptoms/test positive they don't have far to go to get treated.
stay safe.
-
I was hoping that was sarcasm, but I wasn't sure.
Breaking news: The governors of NY and NJ are doing what the federal government should be doing:http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/10/24/new-york-new-jersey-set-up-mandatory-quarantine-requirement-amid-ebola-threat/
Mandatory quarantine. The govs are right -- "voluntary" quarantine is an oxymoron, and when medical doctors themselves don't honor it, then it's appropriate to make it mandatory.
-
The governors of NY and NJ have instituted a policy of mandatory quarantine for any health workers returning to CONUS after working with Ebola patients. The first such person affected, a nurse, is suing because her "human" (not civil) rights have been violated (she claims).
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/27/nyregion/as-states-look-to-halt-ebola-restrictions-prompt-a-debate.html
Donna E. Lieberman, the executive director of the New York Civil Liberties Union, said the most restrictive protocols are far too broad.
“The current order is sweeping in individuals who are asymptomatic and who may never develop symptoms,” Ms. Lieberman said. “I think there is a serious question as to whether the governor has the authority to impose the broad quarantine that he has imposed,” she added.
Reality check, madam. It's not a "broad" quarantine, it's a VERY narrowly-targeted quarantine.
“This is, I think, pushing the envelope quite a bit and is highly counterproductive,” Lawrence O. Gostin, a professor of global health law at Georgetown University, said. “I can’t think of a situation where any jurisdiction in the United States in modern times has simply quarantined a whole class of people.”
I fail to see how isolating those people who may become symptomatic within 21 days for those 21 days, in order to prevent them from going out for a night on the town on Day 20 and potentially infecting everyone they come in contact with, is "counterproductive." And, again, this is not quarantining "a whole class of people." It's quarantining a very tiny group of people, whose colleagues have proven rather dramatically that they cannot be trusted to self-quarantine for the time necessary. In fact, I saw a quote from a returning doctor who couldn't understand why he shouldn't go right back to work as a doctor in a hospital during that three-week incubation period.
What is the matter with these people?
-
This might help see what they are pissed about, but maybe not.
It is a states right deal. The states can decide
http://perdidostreetschool.blogspot.com/2014/10/governor-christie-falsely-claims-nurse.html
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
This might help see what they are pissed about, but maybe not.
It is a states right deal. The states can decide
http://perdidostreetschool.blogspot.com/2014/10/governor-christie-falsely-claims-nurse.html
Yeah, maybe not.
So she's not symptomatic today. Doesn't mean squat. If ("IF") she was exposed, there's no telling exactly when it might have happened, so there's no way to predict when she might become symptomatic and contagious. She should no this -- she's a freakin' NURSE. Don't they teach nurses and doctors anything any more?
-
Yea I think they do teach docs and nurses something in med school. That's why I look to them for advice on how to handle diseases. Not politicians or folks from other professions
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Yea I think they do teach docs and nurses something in med school. That's why I look to them for advice on how to handle diseases. Not politicians or folks from other professions
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I live with a nurse. That's not necessarily a great plan.
The amount of hubris and "that doesn't apply to me" in American healthcare is hard to over estimate.
Quarantine of potentially infected people until the incubation period is over is niether new nor ground breaking epidemiology. This nurse is just pissed off because she didn't expect it to happen to her.
-
When was the last quarantine?
You think your wife would come home to you if she thought she'd infect you?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Yea I think they do teach docs and nurses something in med school. That's why I look to them for advice on how to handle diseases. Not politicians or folks from other professions
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Exactly. I look to docs for advice on and treatment of diseases.
I look to politicians and other folk to set reasonable and proper public policies. Like if you spent the past few weeks in Africa bathing in bloody diarrhea from Ebola patients park your ass and home and don't come out for the next three weeks, call us if you start bleeding funny.
-
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/10/27/nurse-new-jersey-ebola-quarantine/17993491/
And now, the NJ nurse is OK to be released. Amazing as to the overnight change in the clinical consensus as to the necessity for quarantine.
-
The amount of hubris and "that doesn't apply to me" in American healthcare is hard to over estimate.
Quarantine of potentially infected people until the incubation period is over is niether new nor ground breaking epidemiology. This nurse is just pissed off because she didn't expect it to happen to her.
And this nurse comes on the heels of the network medical consultant, an M.D., who agreed to a voluntary self-quarantine after returning from one of those countries and then thought it was a good idea to go out for dinner, and the doctor whose idea of self-quarantine included taking a subway to go bowling, and then returning to his apartment by cab.
I don't know if "hubris" is even an adequate word to describe such monumentally disconnected attitudes.
-
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/10/27/nurse-new-jersey-ebola-quarantine/17993491/
And now, the NJ nurse is OK to be released. Amazing as to the overnight change in the clinical consensus as to the necessity for quarantine.
Yeah, because she has been free of symptoms for 24 hours. As if that proves anything when the incubation period is 21 days.
:facepalm:
So now she wants to go to Maine, where I'm sure there isn't a hospital within 100 miles of anywhere that would be even remotely prepared to deal with her if she should become symptomatic.
-
Exactly. I look to docs for advice on and treatment of diseases.
I look to politicians and other folk to set reasonable and proper public policies. Like if you spent the past few weeks in Africa bathing in bloody diarrhea from Ebola patients park your ass and home and don't come out for the next three weeks, call us if you start bleeding funny.
It appears they are loosing some of the restrictions due to White House criticism.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/10/27/new-york-gov-cuomo-loosens-ebola-quarantine-restrictions-after-criticism/ (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/10/27/new-york-gov-cuomo-loosens-ebola-quarantine-restrictions-after-criticism/)
Under the revised guidelines, medical professionals who have had contact with Ebola patients will be quarantined at home and receive twice-daily monitoring if they have no symptoms. Family members will be allowed to stay, and friends may visit with the approval of health officials. The state will also pay for any lost compensation, if they are not paid by a volunteer organization.
-
Political correctness is a deadly Western Affliction.
-
Under the revised guidelines, medical professionals who have had contact with Ebola patients will be quarantined at home and receive twice-daily monitoring if they have no symptoms. Family members will be allowed to stay, and friends may visit with the approval of health officials. The state will also pay for any lost compensation, if they are not paid by a volunteer organization.
That is not a quarantine. Words have meanings folks.
You think your wife would come home to you if she thought she'd infect you?
That depends on whether or not she noticed the pile of new AR parts on my workbench before work. >:D But the Nurse in NJ obviously would. She doesn't KNOW she's not infected, she just knows she's not symptomatic. Again, words have meanings. I don't understand why she would even risk it if she has a family (or even likes her nieghbors).
She's leaving a biological hot zone. She may or may not be infected. Nobody, at this point, knows. Why wouldn't you err on the side of caution?
-
You think your wife would come home to you if she thought she'd infect you?
Do you think any parent would drive drunk with their kid in the car if they really considered the possibility that they might get in a fatal wreck?
"It can't happen to me" drives a lot of stupid behavior.
-
You guys know there's a blood test? And she passed it? And the only symptom was a single reading by someone at the airport? That was countered by a real doc at the hospital
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
You guys know there's a blood test? And she passed it? And the only symptom was a single reading by someone at the airport? That was countered by a real doc at the hospital
Last I heard, PCR could be reliable as much as two days before onset of symptoms. That still means 19 days before you can trust a negative result.
Now, a viable alternative - if a proper lab is available and has time to prioritize the samples - might be to run a PCR every other day, so that you would have a 24-48 hour warning before the patient becomes contagious, but the consequences of one false negative could be catastrophic if the patient is being allowed to go about their regular daily life during that time.
-
Two quick things:
1. In a surprise move Gov. Quinn has instituted a 21 day quarantine for anyone coming into Illinois from Ebolaland. Based on the recommendation of the State Director of Public Health. (If NY/NJ/IL can do this, why not the Feds....Oh yeah, got to keep Amnesty viable until after the election. :mad: :facepalm:) Anywho, Is the CDC really giving Obama bad advice or is he simply ignoring their advice and sending them out to do a Kevin Bacon at the end of Animal House. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDAmPIq29ro
2. A lab test may turn up negative, however, that could simply mean that there's not enough Ebola Virii coursing through your blood yet. Hence the 21* day incubation period. But again, politics are running this show, not healthcare and infection control specialists.
*- WHO says up to 42 days.
-
You guys know there's a blood test? And she passed it? And the only symptom was a single reading by someone at the airport? That was countered by a real doc at the hospital
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Blood test is for antibodies, not virii, and as such can have some major variations as to when it goes positive, as was mentioned upthread.
You misunderstand quarantine still. Symptoms or no, if someone, anyone, comes into this country after a known stay in a place with active Ebola, they stay a guest of the .gov until 21 days after the last known time they were in the vicinity of the virus. This accounts for things like unknown failures of PPE, or unexpected transmission vectors.
This woman is very probably clean. So what? Very probably is not definitely. For Christ's sake we quarantine DOGS and CATS coming from Europe so our precious fido's don't get EU canine liberalism, but we'll roll the dice on Ebola?
-
Blood test is for antibodies, not virii, and as such can have some major variations as to when it goes positive, as was mentioned upthread.
You misunderstand quarantine still. Symptoms or no, if someone, anyone, comes into this country after a known stay in a place with active Ebola, they stay a guest of the .gov until 21 days after the last known time they were in the vicinity of the virus. This accounts for things like unknown failures of PPE, or unexpected transmission vectors.
This woman is very probably clean. So what? Very probably is not definitely. For Christ's sake we quarantine DOGS and CATS coming from Europe so our precious fido's don't get EU canine liberalism, but we'll roll the dice on Ebola?
Hell, try traveling just to a different state and a horse without the proper "my horse isn't carrying nothin" paperwork.
Does it suck to be the person in quarantine? Sure. But it sucks more when you get ebola off the last dudes bowling ball or the person in the next booth over starts hacking.
-
good read
21 Days
An expert in biological warfare warns against complacency in public measures against Ebola.
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/10/21-days/381901/?single_page=true
-
It is a good read. Short on hysteria
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
It is a good read. Short on hysteria
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Wow, the famous Dr. Steve Hatfill of anthrax accusations fame! I wondered what became of him.
-
He's been spending the 5.8 mill he got
We never did figure out where the anthrax came from
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
^^^That Dr. Bruce Ivins turned out to be a dead end, too, if I recall. Although he had quite the issues.
-
He supposedly kinda confessed in nut house
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
I don't see the .gov doing things much different than they are now if they wanted a massive epidemic. :rofl: [tinfoil]
-
good read
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/10/21-days/381901/?single_page=true
Excellent read. Dr. Hatfield makes many of the points that I, and some others here, have made. The Fed.gov is screwing the pooch on this, and needlessly exposing Americans to this deadly disease.
-
good read
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/10/21-days/381901/?single_page=true
One thing he didn't expound on that I have read recently is the danger that ebola will find a suitable host species in North America. We have all kinds of bats in this country, for example.
That quarantine is part of making sure we don't have it spread to a "reservoir" in this country like it is in Africa (and all the way to Bangladesh, according to that article.)
-
One thing he didn't expound on that I have read recently is the danger that ebola will find a suitable host species in North America. We have all kinds of bats in this country, for example.
That quarantine is part of making sure we don't have it spread to a "reservoir" in this country like it is in Africa (and all the way to Bangladesh, according to that article.)
Exactly. And the enviroweenies would never let us decimate an animal population intentionally to clear such a problem...at least not until it reached the point where we would actually have to try for total extinction of a species.
-
We, sadly, may not have to worry about bats becoming a Ebola vector.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_nose_syndrome
-
The bat vector thing is pretty far-fetched. We'd have to somehow infect bats, then eat something that got infected by eating infected bats since unlike West Africa I'm pretty sure that we don't consider bats tasty.
More worried about the barking moonbat vectors. What exactly is to be gained by the aggressive behavior of nurse Hickox? You'd think health workers would set the example and quarantine themselves.
-
The bat vector thing is pretty far-fetched. We'd have to somehow infect bats, then eat something that got infected by eating infected bats since unlike West Africa I'm pretty sure that we don't consider bats tasty.
Bats were an example. As the virus IS NOT prevalent on the North American continent, we can't know what animals it might infect.
For a scarier (but less likely) example: what if it took a liking to the white-tailed deer? Or bears? Or Coyotes? (As I recall, dogs can be carriers, but are unaffected by the virus.)
-
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/10/29/new-york-city-doctor-with-ebola-reportedly-lied-about-his-movements-in-city/
Oh, hey. Medical professional initially lied about his actions while symptomatic.
That's sure going to instill confidence.
-
http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/197434/
OUR BRAVE “PUBLIC HEALTH” PEOPLE SEEM KINDA SELFISH: Ebola Nurse In Maine Says She Won’t Follow Home Quarantine Rules. Really setting an example there, honey.
Or maybe she’s just following this example: Report: ‘Hero’ Ebola doctor lied to the NYPD; Said he’d ‘self quarantined.’ Putz.
Funny, the public health crowd loves telling others what to do, but doesn’t seem so big on following instructions itself. This does not inspire confidence, and will make it much harder to get ordinary Americans to comply with public health measures in the future.
Meanwhile, such behavior just strengthens the case for mandatory quarantines for everyone entering the country from Ebola areas. We obviously can’t trust their professionalism and willingness to engage in self-sacrifice — at least, unless they’re from Tennessee.
-
For a scarier (but less likely) example: what if it took a liking to the white-tailed deer? Or bears? Or Coyotes? (As I recall, dogs can be carriers, but are unaffected by the virus.)
How long can it live in a mosquito or tick's belly? Doesn't have to be able to affect an insect if it's being carried by blood transfusions. Also raises the question of whether direct blood transfer like that could transmit it earlier than onset of symptoms.
That would also raise the possibility of an insect vector between humans and a reservoir species that we otherwise don't contact in ways conducive to transmission.
-
Here's why we shouldn't even allow people to travel from affected countries to the U.S. until they have gone through a 21-day quarantine over there:
http://www.newser.com/story/197882/nurse-wont-obey-maine-quarantine.html?utm_source=part&utm_medium=united&utm_campaign=rss_topnews
Nurse Kaci Hickox has gone from forced quarantine in New Jersey to "voluntary" quarantine in Maine—but it may not be voluntary for long. Her lawyer tells the Bangor Daily News that she agreed not to go out in public for two days, but "she doesn't want to agree to continue to be confined to a residence beyond the two days."
So here's yet another supposedly trained health care professional who either doesn't understand the fundamental principal of "quarantine," or who joins the growing army of people who simply don't think rules should apply to them. My vote would be to put her on a private charter plane and send her back over to Africa.
-
Here's the sort of tripe medical professionals are writing: http://time.com/3546125/ebola-quarantine-chris-christie-kaci-hickox/
If he tried really hard, he might could have squeezed in a few more drippy emotional-baggage words. (I get it that he doesn't like Christie, but that's no excuse)
-
So self monitoring and self- quarantine includes going out to dinner, trapesing around NYC on the Subway, going for a run, and then to a bowling alley?
I pray that no one gets Ebola from this *expletive deleted*tard who ABSOLUTELY KNOWS BETTER.
But if they want to stop a panic and the possible spread of the disease, then they need to quarantine folks. You don't like it, tough *expletive deleted*it. Public Health policy.
If she wants to sue, and I'm the state's attorney, I'd let EVERY judge know that I will put her on the witness stand, RIGHT NEXT TO YOU.
Your move.
-
Bats were an example. As the virus IS NOT prevalent on the North American continent, we can't know what animals it might infect.
For a scarier (but less likely) example: what if it took a liking to the white-tailed deer? Or bears? Or Coyotes? (As I recall, dogs can be carriers, but are unaffected by the virus.)
Let me know when a symptomatic ebola patient gets eaten by a bear, then I'll worry about that. Pretty sure far fetched is about the right description.
-
As a former USAMRIID guy I read says, voluntary quarantines are a joke. I'm not terribly worried about ebola unless something changes, but that nurse and that doctor should be under house arrest with shoot on sight orders for if they try to sneak out. Quarantine of infectious disease has always been one of the most useful and legitimate things a .gov can do.
-
...unless you want to do an amnesty for all the illegal aliens after the election... ;/ ;/ :mad: :mad:
-
Let me know when a symptomatic ebola patient gets eaten by a bear, then I'll worry about that. Pretty sure far fetched is about the right description.
Or maybe just bitten by a coyote while on a jog. Or intercepted by an insect vector not known in Africa. Or maybe throws up on some plants while out jogging eaten soon after by a deer.
IF we had quarantines going, the above (except maybe the insect vector) would not be at all likely. Ebola doc and Typhoid Hicox are proving these may be valid concerns.
-
The Associated Press writes:
"Police were monitoring her movements and public interactions but couldn't detain her without a court order signed by a judge.
"Hickox contends there's no need for quarantine because she's showing no symptoms. She's also tested negative for the deadly disease.
" 'I really hope that we can work things out amicably and continue to negotiate,' she said Thursday morning while riding on a dirt trail."
After returning to the U.S. over the weekend, she blasted New Jersey officials for confining her. When they discharged her earlier this week, she returned to Maine, where she was asked to self-quarantine.
In television interviews Wednesday, she vowed not to stick to guidelines.
In a statement on Thursday, the president of the American Nurses Association, Pamela Cipriano, defended Hickox, saying that "based on the best available scientific evidence" she "poses no public threat" and should not be confined to her home.
"ANA supports a policy of appropriate monitoring for health care workers who have cared for or been in contact with patients with Ebola. Those who are not exhibiting symptoms of illness consistent with Ebola do not require quarantine," Cipriano said.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Here's the sort of tripe medical professionals are writing: http://time.com/3546125/ebola-quarantine-chris-christie-kaci-hickox/
He's not a medical professional -- he's a Ph.D. not an M.D. His field is medical ethics, not medicine. I think his thesis should be reviewed.
-
The Associated Press writes:
"Police were monitoring her movements and public interactions but couldn't detain her without a court order signed by a judge.
"Hickox contends there's no need for quarantine because she's showing no symptoms. She's also tested negative for the deadly disease.
" 'I really hope that we can work things out amicably and continue to negotiate,' she said Thursday morning while riding on a dirt trail."
After returning to the U.S. over the weekend, she blasted New Jersey officials for confining her. When they discharged her earlier this week, she returned to Maine, where she was asked to self-quarantine.
In television interviews Wednesday, she vowed not to stick to guidelines.
In a statement on Thursday, the president of the American Nurses Association, Pamela Cipriano, defended Hickox, saying that "based on the best available scientific evidence" she "poses no public threat" and should not be confined to her home.
"ANA supports a policy of appropriate monitoring for health care workers who have cared for or been in contact with patients with Ebola. Those who are not exhibiting symptoms of illness consistent with Ebola do not require quarantine," Cipriano said.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I don't give a *expletive deleted*ck how special of a snowflake she thinks she is, that *expletive deleted*ing idiot needs to be forcibly quarantined.
-
Those pesky laws get in the way . They need a court order . Haven't got one
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Governor of Maine seems to have figured it out too
http://www.pressherald.com/2014/10/30/kaci-hickox-and-boyfriend-leave-home-on-bikes/
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Nurse Hickox seems to be the healthcare equivalent of Open Carry Texas at Chipotle.
-
She cause anyone else to bar something?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
-
Meanwhile, we have double standards for those animals that are less equal then others....
http://www.thelocal.it/20141029/us-soldiers-ebola-quarantine-in-italy-sparks-alarm
-
Wasn't that the military brass that made the call?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
-
For a scarier (but less likely) example: what if it took a liking to the white-tailed deer?
Actually, here in Michigun, much of the deer population has been affected by Epizootic Hemorrhagic Disease (my brother from another mother) called it "deer ebola". The say it can't affect humans but, what if they are wrong? ;)
-
Seems even libprogs agree, quarantines are legal.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/28/are-mandatory-ebola-quarantines-legal.html
-
All that matter is can they get a judge to sign their order.
Shes already made 2governors her $)(;
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
-
I don't wish the woman any ill will but I'd laugh my ass off if she came down with Ebola.
-
I like how the President states that if we force these people to be quarantined they won't go help. But they aren't being forced to go help so if you want to help step up and play nice for 21 days.
I mean the President is ordering as of now I believe 4000 troops to the region and they will be forced to be quarantined for the 21 days. I know damn well that more than not of those troops want to go.
-
Today's strip @ http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/
Ouch!
I'm still not sure where I stand on this specific case but fanning the flames of casual airborne contamination? Mabe "just a bit" too much.
stay safe.
-
I don't have the medical knowledge to make an informed statement on if making her stay in a quarantine facility was right or wrong. However, refusing to "stay at home for 21 days and we'll pay you to do it"? Sorry, at this point she's just an ass who wants fifteen minutes.
-
I don't have the medical knowledge to make an informed statement on if making her stay in a quarantine facility was right or wrong. However, refusing to "stay at home for 21 days and we'll pay you to do it"? Sorry, at this point she's just an ass who wants fifteen minutes.
And in the state of our society, this makes anything voluntary akin to Ebola roulette. We've reached the point where individual narcissism is a foil to public health policy.
-
Interesting . She's stayed away from other folks at home. What has she actually done other than make 2 governors back off and obey the law? If you were bitching about the doctor you might have a case but oddly the nurse seems to generate more butt hurt
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
So what if she is in a collision with a car while riding her bike during this period and let us say there is blood?
If she is infected she is then putting at risk any first responders and good Samaritans who may be exposed to her blood.
Unlikely? Yes
Impossible? No
-
I don't have the medical knowledge to make an informed statement on if making her stay in a quarantine facility was right or wrong. However, refusing to "stay at home for 21 days and we'll pay you to do it"? Sorry, at this point she's just an ass who wants fifteen minutes.
Or is she a staunch libertarian fighting against illogical governmental restrictions, and is doing so by confrontation and pushing the envelope while remaining within the boundaries of the law? Again, kind of like Open Carry Texas carrying their Tapco ARs into Chipotle?
-
Or like the folks who TALK about doing something about the tsa
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
And the judge says
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/oct/31/kaci-hickox-wins--judge-rejects-ebola-quarantine/
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Or is she a staunch libertarian fighting against illogical governmental restrictions, and is doing so by confrontation and pushing the envelope while remaining within the boundaries of the law? Again, kind of like Open Carry Texas carrying their Tapco ARs into Chipotle?
I'm surprised you'd think quarantines are illogical .gov restrictions.
-
She has due process and used it. Not to be confused with talking about using it, someday, maybe
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
I'm surprised you'd think quarantines are illogical .gov restrictions.
I do not, if they are supported by objective clinical criteria based upon the best available knowledge at the time. This mishmash of criteria used by differing jurisdictions for this event do not seem to have such a basis.
-
You see how folks in the uk are reacting? It's embarrassing
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Apparently Hickox is a CDC employee.
http://raconteurreport.blogspot.com/2014/10/oopsie-pres-obolas-sticky-fingerprints.html
So they don't want immigration controls, they don't want quarantine, they send the 101'st into an Ebola zone, and now want to bring Ebola patients into the US for treatment, and still have no idea how nurse Pham got infected.
Any one of these is dumb. Together, it almost sounds like they want Ebola here, with some sort of excuse to fall back on like it was an "unexpected" tragic event no one could have foreseen..
When stupidity goes exponential, it is indistinguishable from malice.
-
(https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t31.0-8/10714380_380096338782081_2598603564201893942_o.jpg)
-
And now the Maine CDC reports Hickox's roommate had Ebola.
-
And?
“The respondents roommate in Africa became infected without knowing how she became infected with Ebola. (Any potential risk to respondent from that incident has passed).” This is one of 35 points Pinette made while filing a verified petition for public health order yesterday with the state.
-
I like how the President states that if we force these people to be quarantined they won't go help. But they aren't being forced to go help so if you want to help step up and play nice for 21 days.
I mean the President is ordering as of now I believe 4000 troops to the region and they will be forced to be quarantined for the 21 days. I know damn well that more than not of those troops want to go.
IANAE, but if a large group of people are all possibly exposed at roughly the same time, then all quarantined together, don't the odds say that at least one of those people were exposed and the close proximity to others because of the quarantine makes it easier for all to catch it? Is this a government anti-military conspiracy? (this is only partially tongue-in-cheek. )
Sent from my Note 3, now that the criminal Motorola Droid X2 has been "retired."
-
I don't have the medical knowledge to make an informed statement on if making her stay in a quarantine facility was right or wrong. However, refusing to "stay at home for 21 days and we'll pay you to do it"? Sorry, at this point she's just an ass who wants fifteen minutes.
Her boyfriend said in an interview that they aren't seeking to push any limits.
What a dweeb. She's not doing anything BUT push the limits. That town in Maine is a small, close-knit community of only 4000 people. And it's not part of a larger "greater metropolitan area," unless trees count as metropolitan. She's receiving death threats from her neighbors, which is very unMaine-like. That should be her first clue.
But ... "there are none so blind as those who will not see." Clues are wasted on the clueless.
-
IANAE, but if a large group of people are all possibly exposed at roughly the same time, then all quarantined together, don't the odds say that at least one of those people were exposed and the close proximity to others because of the quarantine makes it easier for all to catch it?
Ya think?
I have to wonder how many of the Ebola patients over there started out with something much tamer like Lassa or even a simple rhinovirus, but got dumped into the quarantine camp based on a cough and fever. Being immune compromised already, it's pretty much a safe bet that they all have Ebola after a few days sharing a tent and facilities with the ones who are already spewing from both ends.
-
Let me break it the *expletive deleted* ck down. Despite the insistence of certain folk on the internet and the incompetent CDC, Ebola is spread too easily for my comfort plus it's still a rather deadly disease. Ms. Special Snowflake and those of similar mindset are risking the health of others because they are attention whores and self-righteous idiots. Quarantine their dumb asses.
-
Your comfort over the rule of law? How's that work? I think it's hilarious watching the same folk who think tsa is de debil are so willing to lean the other way here.
Wasn't there some noise about not sacrificing liberty for safety?
Heck they killed 3000 folks with planes we are still at 0 dead Americans
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Your comfort over the rule of law? How's that work? I think it's hilarious watching the same folk who think tsa is de debil are so willing to lean the other way here.
Wasn't there some noise about not sacrificing liberty for safety?
Heck they killed 3000 folks with planes we are still at 0 dead Americans
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
No less ironic than you arguing against more statism....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Or using "the judge" as a source. That was traumatic
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
So currently the legal deal is nothing's changed. The tried and the judge told em know. She worked out a compromise following the same guidelines as before. The same ones followed by the who as well as the cdc
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
IANAE, but if a large group of people are all possibly exposed at roughly the same time, then all quarantined together, don't the odds say that at least one of those people were exposed and the close proximity to others because of the quarantine makes it easier for all to catch it? Is this a government anti-military conspiracy? (this is only partially tongue-in-cheek. )
Sent from my Note 3, now that the criminal Motorola Droid X2 has been "retired."
But but but!
Why bring good sense into this when the fear is visibly percolating. But it's not all bad lots of bloggers flogging it as hard as they can
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
imagine if the government actually did what it was formed for.
I don't know if anybody here ever did any risk management. I have not, never went to school, none of that- but from fishing and logging and high voltage and machine tools etc I did learn a little bit over the years. Maybe someone else can chime in who has been schooled on this.
what I figured out-
There are low risk, low probability events- these you don't worry about too much.
There are low risk, high probability events- so wear your safety glasses. etc.
There are high risk, high probability events- don't go there.
There are high risk, low probability events, which are wise to protect against if there is in fact anything you can do about them- not much way to protect against a solar flare or an earthquake.
And there are high risk, unknown probability events- like Ebola- OK, fine, it does not look like much now in the US- but IF it gets out, we could have a devastating event.
Disregarding the risk, with so many unknowns, with this sort of potential result, is stupidity.
I just read a quote today from Bastiat, written a few hundred years ago, , to the effect of how the socialists, when challenged on the extent of government control , immediately revert to how the conservatives want no government at all. This sounds just like some of you folks. I hear it all the time, it is a standard refrain from the left. Don't like some of the ever increasing idiotic pollution standards? Oh, you must favor putting pouring pesticides in the water supply. Don't like gun control, Oh, you want babies to have machine guns.
You want some consistency? We don't like the tsa because they are incompetent nit wits. And we don't like what the CDC and the national government are doing WRT Ebola, because it has been demonstrated they are incompetent nitwits.
Now because of the demonstrated stupidity and obfuscation by the CDC, we happen to think that if there is a virus floating around in parts of the world that has the ability to turn your insides into bleeding jelly and have you puking it up and squirting out your ass, that maybe it would be best to stop that from getting here.
We have been so lucky it is near blasphemy to throw away the grace we have been shown so far.
-
Your comfort over the rule of law? How's that work? I think it's hilarious watching the same folk who think tsa is de debil are so willing to lean the other way here.
Wasn't there some noise about not sacrificing liberty for safety?
Heck they killed 3000 folks with planes we are still at 0 dead Americans
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Do you just enjoy being *expletive deleted*ing obtuse?
imagine if the government actually did what it was formed for.
I don't know if anybody here ever did any risk management. I have not, never went to school, none of that- but from fishing and logging and high voltage and machine tools etc I did learn a little bit over the years. Maybe someone else can chime in who has been schooled on this.
what I figured out-
There are low risk, low probability events- these you don't worry about too much.
There are low risk, high probability events- so wear your safety glasses. etc.
There are high risk, high probability events- don't go there.
There are high risk, low probability events, which are wise to protect against if there is in fact anything you can do about them- not much way to protect against a solar flare or an earthquake.
And there are high risk, unknown probability events- like Ebola- OK, fine, it does not look like much now in the US- but IF it gets out, we could have a devastating event.
Disregarding the risk, with so many unknowns, with this sort of potential result, is stupidity.
I just read a quote today from Bastiat, written a few hundred years ago, , to the effect of how the socialists, when challenged on the extent of government control , immediately revert to how the conservatives want no government at all. This sounds just like some of you folks. I hear it all the time, it is a standard refrain from the left. Don't like some of the ever increasing idiotic pollution standards? Oh, you must favor putting pouring pesticides in the water supply. Don't like gun control, Oh, you want babies to have machine guns.
You want some consistency? We don't like the tsa because they are incompetent nit wits. And we don't like what the CDC and the national government are doing WRT Ebola, because it has been demonstrated they are incompetent nitwits.
Now because of the demonstrated stupidity and obfuscation by the CDC, we happen to think that if there is a virus floating around in parts of the world that has the ability to turn your insides into bleeding jelly and have you puking it up and squirting out your ass, that maybe it would be best to stop that from getting here.
We have been so lucky it is near blasphemy to throw away the grace we have been shown so far.
I actually have some matter of education in regards to infectious diseases. Let's just say I don't place much stock in the reassurences of the CDC and self-important medical professhiunials who think they are too good to be in quarantine after having contact with Ebola patients. It's only *expletive deleted*ing sensible to be in isolation after exposure to a virus like that, plus use actual effective, appropriate PPE.
Nor do I place any stock in internet "experts" who say Ebola is not the threat it appears to be. It is a threat, and the only advantage we have is good medical facilities, compared to the normal environment it breaks out in. Yet, we have everybody throwing common sense out the damn window and going full on stupid and acting like *expletive deleted*ing idiots around this stuff, not using proper PPE, going out into public after having contact with known Ebola patients, and so on. That loose, cowboy attitude towards this disease is just DAMN STUPID.
In a conversation with some older folks, I was reminded of the start and spread of AIDS. Back then, when it was confined largely to the druggies and gays when it hit the states, there were certain people who felt that it would never get the exposure needed because by and large few in mainstream America cared about them...so some took it upon themselves to deliberately infect Mainstream America for increased attention. Makes me wonder if that isn't an objective of the Federal response to Ebola..."Nobody cares about Africans dying, so it's time for Americans to find out about it!"
-
Who infected mainstream America to generate attention ? I am most curious to hear this one
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Nother doc http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/10/29/california-stanford-surgeon-under-modified-quarantine-in-san-mateo-county-after-returning-from-liberia/
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Who infected mainstream America to generate attention ? I am most curious to hear this one
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
The method used to infect others was a refusal to follow the standard protocols for other sexually transmitted diseases. Because getting off was more important to them than not infecting and killing more people. I would not call it a conspiracy, just sick folk unwilling to discipline themselves to not harm others.
It was quite the interesting time, not knowing if a blood transfusion would eventually kill you from AIDS. And seeing nearly all the hemophiliacs contract and die form AIDS since their meds required blood products from a multitude of donors. I knew, casually via school, a boy that died from all that mess. A "mainstream" victim to homicidally narcissistic homosexuals and their political enablers.
-
You familiar with the clotting factor scandal?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/22/business/2-paths-of-bayer-drug-in-80-s-riskier-one-steered-overseas.html
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
http://www.hemophiliafed.org/news-stories/2014/03/questions-and-answers/
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
It was quite the interesting time, not knowing if a blood transfusion would eventually kill you from AIDS. And seeing nearly all the hemophiliacs contract and die form AIDS since their meds required blood products from a multitude of donors. I knew, casually via school, a boy that died from all that mess. A "mainstream" victim to homicidally narcissistic homosexuals and their political enablers.
I worked with a guy who got aids this way.
-
I had a roommate catch it like that. Ironic too. He dodged the bullet while shooting dope then got hurt in the military and got it from a transfusion.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
It was quite the interesting time, not knowing if a blood transfusion would eventually kill you from AIDS. And seeing nearly all the hemophiliacs contract and die form AIDS since their meds required blood products from a multitude of donors. I knew, casually via school, a boy that died from all that mess. A "mainstream" victim to homicidally narcissistic homosexuals and their political enablers.
So did tennis star Arthur Ashe. IIRC, he contracted AIDS from a blood transfusion.
-
A second person is being monitored in Oregon, now. (http://www.nwcn.com/story/news/health/2014/10/31/person-being-monitored-for-ebola-in-oregon-hospitalized/18265269/) She recently returned from West Africa, and presented herself at a Milwaukie, OR hospital with a 102° fever. Folks that were living with her are in a voluntary quarantine.
The first person went through a 21 day quarantine and was released after no symptoms developed.
-
Folks that were living with her are in a voluntary quarantine.
I'm glad that there are people that don't have Special Snowflake syndrome like some people and are willing to isolate themselves to be on the safe side.
-
http://www.opb.org/news/article/oregon-aligns-quarantine-rules-with-cdc/
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has updated its recommendations for dealing with Ebola a number of times.
The latest recommendations were released Monday.
Paul Lewis is the public health officer for Multnomah, Clackamas and Washington Counties. He told OPB’s Think Out Loud that local and state officials are trying to align Oregon’s guidelines and laws with the new CDC recommendations.
“And they’re very very similar in spirit in that it actually stratifies people as being at very high risk, such as health care workers who’ve actually been poked by needles. Versus low risk people who happen to have been in one of the affected countries, weren’t sick themselves and had no contact,” he said.
“Those at the higher risk are put in voluntary home quarantine with twice daily monitoring for illness. Those at the very low risk do the ongoing monitoring, but unless there are exceptional circumstances, their activities are not limited.”
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Has anyone of the experts determined yet how it can be that if you're on a bus with someone who has ebola you can't get it, but, if you have ebola and are on a bus, you might be giving other people ebola? [tinfoil]
-
No ebola in Oregon
http://www.oregonlive.com/health/index.ssf/2014/11/test_on_liberian_woman_hospita.html
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Peter has a few comments about the situation. http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2014/11/ebola-update.html
He's not going to make any libertarians happy.
stay safe.
-
Peter has a few comments about the situation. http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2014/11/ebola-update.html
He's not going to make any libertarians happy.
stay safe.
What part am I supposed to be unhappy about? The mandatory quarantines?
-
What part am I supposed to be unhappy about? The mandatory quarantines?
I was thinking more like the "shackle them to the walls and shoot them if they escape" part.
stay safe.
-
Peter has a few comments about the situation. http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2014/11/ebola-update.html
He's not going to make any libertarians happy.
I consider myself pretty much a libertarian, and I think he makes perfect sense. I don't think libertarians are diametrically opposed to common sense.
-
I was thinking more like the "shackle them to the walls and shoot them if they escape" part.
I would regard that as closely akin to suicide by cop ...
-
And on another EEEbolaaa front, my friend in Dallas who took care of one of the positive nurses has passed her 21 day state/federal imposed quarantine. During this time she was also placed on the no-fly list and I think that will come back to haunt her for many years to come. I told her she needs to stay in the US for a few years just in case. I am sure they would let her out of the country and only discover she on the no-fly list when she tries to return, in typical government fashion.
On another note, she has let her cat turn her thermometer into a toy, I told her to put it on Ebay as a genuine EEEbola thermometer, only used for 21 days. Somebody is sure to snatch it up. ;)
bob
-
What part am I supposed to be unhappy about? The mandatory quarantines?
I'm getting practically giddy over the thought of walling off and quarantining LA County, Cook County, Travis County, etc.
But only if we cut communications until it can be absolutely proven to my satisfaction that Ebola cannot possibly mutate in such a manner as to allow electronic transmission.
-
I'm getting practically giddy over the thought of walling off and quarantining LA County, Cook County, Travis County, etc.
But only if we cut communications until it can be absolutely proven to my satisfaction that Ebola cannot possibly mutate in such a manner as to allow electronic transmission.
Especially if "communications" is in the military sense: movement, logistics, etc. Twenty-one days of suspended communications in or out of such places would have quite the salutary effect.
-
I'm going out on a limb to suggest that the typical virus/bacterium has precious little regard for civil liberty as framed in the progression of Western thought on the human condition. I am as rock-ribbed a libertarian as any, in the context of how people should treat other people. Want to argue that a political overreaction shouldn't contravene "settled science"? Knock yourself out. The fact that we have been fortunate in this instance doesn't mean it will ever be so. Our reactions to those future die rolls should not be predicated on one lucky seven.
-
Why is it that when the .gov wants to stick it to us, they ignore all constitutional limitations "out of an abundance of caution" but, when they want to advance their agenda, anyone else espousing caution is dismissed as a panic-stricken wacko?
-
That's a rhetorical question, right? ;/
-
http://online.wsj.com/articles/for-ebola-survivors-sex-carries-added-risk-1415061018
An article describing an anecdotal case of possible Ebola transmission through sexual contact.
-
http://online.wsj.com/articles/for-ebola-survivors-sex-carries-added-risk-1415061018
An article describing an anecdotal case of possible Ebola transmission through sexual contact.
WSJ is asking me to subscribe to get the full story, but here (http://"http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/scant-research-makes-sex-and-ebola-a-risky-mix/story-e6frg6n6-1227112588824?nk=4d2c61458a4486c67fb1af524f342580") is another story on it.
First case I've heard of a woman recovered from Ebola possibly passing it on sexually, but I've heard it can hang out in seminal fluid (http://www.who.int/csr/disease/ebola/faq-ebola/en/) for as long as seven weeks.
-
http://online.wsj.com/articles/for-ebola-survivors-sex-carries-added-risk-1415061018
An article describing an anecdotal case of possible Ebola transmission through sexual contact.
Can't read the story without logging in. Summary?
-
WSJ is asking me to subscribe to get the full story, but here (http://"http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/scant-research-makes-sex-and-ebola-a-risky-mix/story-e6frg6n6-1227112588824?nk=4d2c61458a4486c67fb1af524f342580") is another story on it.
That one wants me to subscribe, too.
-
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/as-ebola-declines-in-liberia-health-officials-reassess-response-plans/2014/11/03/88126a4c-6365-11e4-bb14-4cfea1e742d5_story.html
MONROVIA, Liberia — The rate of new Ebola infections here has declined so sharply in recent weeks that even some of the busiest treatment facilities are now only half-full and officials are reassessing the scale of the response needed to quell the epidemic.
Ebola is losing, and the US Army hasn't even deployed yet.
-
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/as-ebola-declines-in-liberia-health-officials-reassess-response-plans/2014/11/03/88126a4c-6365-11e4-bb14-4cfea1e742d5_story.html
Ebola is losing, and the US Army hasn't even deployed yet.
But now what will they use to keep EV-D68 out of the news?
-
Has ever gotten worse?
-
Has ever gotten worse?
It's just moving on to more fertile ground. After killing off everyone it could and being left with folks who have some level of immunity, it wised up and shifted locations.
stay safe.
-
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/11/10/new-york-doctor-cleared-of-ebola-which-means-there-are-no-ebola-cases-in-the-u-s/ no ebola here
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
And a sad but true
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lAz-F1QnyCk
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/12/duncans-family-reaches-resolution-with-hospital/18898847/
So the hospital, after providing hundreds of thousands of dollars (my estimate) in care to a patient and not getting paid for it (Mr. Duncan had no insurance, was not eligible for the ACA and the Liberian Embassy refused to pay the bill), now has the privilege of having to pay a substantial malpractice settlement to boot. I bet the hospital leadership curses the day Mr. Duncan walked into the Emergency Department. All that money has to come from somewhere, so remember this when you get your next medical bill.
-
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/12/duncans-family-reaches-resolution-with-hospital/18898847/
So the hospital, after providing hundreds of thousands of dollars (my estimate) in care to a patient and not getting paid for it (Mr. Duncan had no insurance, was not eligible for the ACA and the Liberian Embassy refused to pay the bill), now has the privilege of having to pay a substantial malpractice settlement to boot. I bet the hospital leadership curses the day Mr. Duncan walked into the Emergency Department. All that money has to come from somewhere, so remember this when you get your next medical bill.
Pile on the lost revenue from paying patients and potential insurance payments who went elsewhere during the media blitz, and the hole is even larger.
-
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/12/duncans-family-reaches-resolution-with-hospital/18898847/
So the hospital, after providing hundreds of thousands of dollars (my estimate) in care to a patient and not getting paid for it (Mr. Duncan had no insurance, was not eligible for the ACA and the Liberian Embassy refused to pay the bill), now has the privilege of having to pay a substantial malpractice settlement to boot. I bet the hospital leadership curses the day Mr. Duncan walked into the Emergency Department. All that money has to come from somewhere, so remember this when you get your next medical bill.
These looters deserve the firing squad. THEY knew he had Ebola and are now PROFITING from it!?
This is exactly the kind of crap that makes people hate lawyers with a white-hot passion.
-
These looters deserve the firing squad. THEY knew he had Ebola and are now PROFITING from it!?
This is exactly the kind of crap that makes people hate lawyers and both domestic and foreign-born members of the FSA with a white-hot passion.
Tile crawlers generally need a turd to latch on to.
-
Tile crawlers generally need a turd to latch on to.
Word. You don't get flies without a malodorous pile of waste.
-
Millcreek, maybe you can weigh in here- on the rumor that the hospital Duncan was in is near empty?
-
They had quite a few workers under observation. How many folks would a place like that employ? Could they handle losing 150 plus employees for 21 days?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
-
What I heard was that the patient census was way down.
-
I read that too
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
-
Millcreek, maybe you can weigh in here- on the rumor that the hospital Duncan was in is near empty?
It was, but it has since largely recovered to the typical pre-Duncan levels, but that hospital has not been doing so hot for a while now. A hospital of that size (almost 900 beds) probably has around 5000 employees.
-
It was, but it has since largely recovered to the typical pre-Duncan levels, but that hospital has not been doing so hot for a while now. A hospital of that size (almost 900 beds) probably has around 5000 employees.
So that would be 200-300 actual medical staff and the rest administration types, right?
-
So that would be 200-300 actual medical staff and the rest administration types, right?
I am not sure what you mean. To me, 'medical staff' means physicians with privileges at the hospital. The largest category of employees at any hospital is going to be the nursing staff. Although it varies according to hospital size, a good rule of thumb is that about 60% of all hospital employees are nurses. Other clinical staff, support staff and administration types make up the other 40%.
-
As a poor benighted layman I made the error of considering the nursing contingent as part of "medical staff".
But, just be sure I was a being facetious and poking a little fun at the chronic shortage of nursing staff in most hospitals.
if it got your knickers in a twist so much the better.
=D
-
As a poor benighted layman I made the error of considering the nursing contingent as part of "medical staff".
But, just be sure I was a being facetious and poking a little fun at the chronic shortage of nursing staff in most hospitals.
if it got your knickers in a twist so much the better.
=D
Wow, I thought you were asking a serious question and I tried to give you a helpful answer. No good deed goes unpunished, I suppose. And yes, for someone who works in healthcare administration, 'medical staff' is a term of art that has a specific meaning.
-
Reading about this latest physician they brought back makes me think the perfect record for curing people who were brought to the US for treatment* may get a ding in it.
*Mr Duncan does not count, he brought himself.
bob
-
Well, that didn't take long. =(
I wonder if he tried hiding or ignoring the symptoms until he just couldn't anymore? It is a also a good reminder that this disease does have a fairly high mortality rate and scooting off to a first world country will not ensure your survival.
bob
-
Well, that didn't take long. =(
I wonder if he tried hiding or ignoring the symptoms until he just couldn't anymore? It is a also a good reminder that this disease does have a fairly high mortality rate and scooting off to a first world country will not ensure your survival.
bob
No, he was tested after suspected exposure and early symptoms. The test came back negative. Ten days later he still had symptoms so he was tested again -- result was positive. By then it was too late.
-
But we've been told."the test " is perfect!
My inner evil person is still miffed that Nurse Snowflake didn't come down with it.
-
Well that adds a whole new dimension. (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/delhi/Cured-in-Liberia-man-tests-positive-for-Ebola-in-Delhi/articleshow/45197216.cms)
-
Well that adds a whole new dimension. (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/delhi/Cured-in-Liberia-man-tests-positive-for-Ebola-in-Delhi/articleshow/45197216.cms)
Indian TSA agents take sperm samples?
That ebola could make it to India would be a disaster.Glad the guy made it.I can't help but be bemusedly horrified thinking about how the Indians acquired that sample though. >:D
-
Indian TSA agents take sperm samples?
That one does raise some questions. I guess it's possible that, under the circumstances, they isolated him on arrival to test every fluid they could get out of him.
-
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/21/world/africa/ebola-spread-has-slowed-in-liberia-cdc-says.html
Liberia and allies restrain Ebola in Liberia.
There is still no Ebola pandemic in the United States.
Western Civilization is victorious once again, as I predicted.
-
Dramatic improvement in Ebola outlook in Liberia. (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/24/us-health-ebola-liberia-idUSKCN0J81SA20141124)
-
15-minute ebola test in trials in Guinea. (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/28/us-health-ebola-test-idUSKCN0JC13Z20141128)
-
Meanwhile, if you wear a green suit and went to Ebolaland to build hospitals and other infrastructure, but not actually, you know, work with Ebola patients, you get to cool your heels for 21 days on my old stomping grounds. Well, not precisely. While I was stationed in Baumholder on HD Smith Barracks, the buildings they are using to quarantine the troops were the old 293rd and later 40th Engineer Battalion barracks. Funny that they are using a fest-tent for the DFAC when there's one within the battalion area. I think the fence is a nice touch.
http://www.stripes.com/news/europe/baumholder-quarantine-site-ready-for-troops-returning-from-ebola-mission-1.314239
http://www.stripes.com/news/us-troops-return-from-ebola-related-mission-for-monitoring-in-germany-1.315882
-
(https://scontent-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10302215_762002153836642_5193704439528122549_n.jpg?oh=354faeb39f3090f06f22c27dbf29a676&oe=558AB1EB)
-
Oh no it didn't disappear. Don't you know Atkinson the " investigative journalist" is peddling the story that there are 1400 secret cases being monitored in the us. Or at least the wnd infowars crowd is claiming it and using her as their source
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Has anybody seen my shocked face? I know I had it here somewhere.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/world/africa/sierra-leone-loses-track-of-millions-in-ebola-funds.html?ref=science&_r=1
And if that's not enough, there's always this http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/13/health/ebola-victims-still-infectious-a-week-after-death-scientists-find.html?ref=science to make you feel all warm and fuzzy (or are you running a fever?) about the whole thing.
stay safe.
-
Has anybody seen my shocked face? I know I had it here somewhere.
Is this it? ==(8-O
-
Schools reopen in Liberia. (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-31487988)
-
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/21/world/africa/ebola-spread-has-slowed-in-liberia-cdc-says.html
Liberia and allies restrain Ebola in Liberia.
There is still no Ebola pandemic in the United States.
Western Civilization is victorious once again, as I predicted.
Didn't pretty much everybody predict that?
-
Er no. Much end of the worldism. In fact the Atkinson 1400 secret ebola cases joke still circulates
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
It's too bad Boko Haram didn't have an outbreak.
-
Well, fine. Not everybody. Wasn't the EBOLA-ZOMBIE-TEOTWAWKI-OHTHENOES!!!11 always a minority viewpoint? It ain't like MicroBalrog was some lone prophet in the wilderness.
-
The ebola noise was pretty broad spectrum
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
I for one was more worried about how a handful of cases would affect the health care system (excessive precautions, health care workers not showing up to work) and the economy, IE panic in the streets, than the actual disease. A few dozen cases would still be a statistical blip in a country of over 360 million people, but with the 24 hours news cycle it would cause a real problem.
-
I for one was more worried about how a handful of cases would affect the health care system (excessive precautions, health care workers not showing up to work) and the economy, IE panic in the streets, than the actual disease. A few dozen cases would still be a statistical blip in a country of over 360 million people, but with the 24 hours news cycle it would cause a real problem.
It did manage to shut down one of the larger hospitals in a major metroplex. One with a sizable chunk of the ER capacity. That was more health-care capacity lost than most mid-sized cities have in total. IOW, not a piddly little thing. And there has yet to be an accounting of the costs incurred and revenues lost due to ebola.
-
The lack of an American pandemic occurring means only one thing.
Obviously we must allow more people from hot zones into our country.
-
One of the milder 1400 ebola cases posts
http://www.vdare.com/posts/centers-for-disease-control-is-secretly-tracking-1400-active-ebola-cases-in-us
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
The article Atkinson wrote that's being inflated
http://sharylattkisson.com/cdc-more-than-1400-people-in-u-s-being-actively-monitored-for-ebola/
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
I for one was more worried about how a handful of cases would affect the health care system (excessive precautions, health care workers not showing up to work) and the economy, IE panic in the streets, than the actual disease. A few dozen cases would still be a statistical blip in a country of over 360 million people, but with the 24 hours news cycle it would cause a real problem.
You would be surprised as to how few nurses it takes not showing up for their shift to essentially shut down a hospital. Most hospitals are somewhat short-staffed on the best of days as it is.
-
csd, I noticed a certain lack of alarmism in those Atkinson links. I don't see your point.
-
You want links to the wnd infowars 1400 case the government and msm are hiding from us?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
http://www.infowars.com/medical-professional-health-authorities-covering-up-ebola-cases-in-u-s/
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
No, I don't want links to yellow journalists being yellow journalists. Nor was I really interested in typical csd caginess. Thank you.
-
Alex Jonesers and similar have made an art out of turning information that is readily available into something that was done "quietly," "while we were distracted," etc.
-
Yes it's a pretty good living. It's kinda scary how much life some of their stuff has
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Alex Jonesers and similar have made an art out of turning information that is readily available into something that was done "quietly," "while we were distracted," etc.
Actually, a lot of press org's seem to think that anything not accompanied by a press conference is done "quietly."
-
Yes it's a pretty good living. It's kinda scary how much life some of their stuff has
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Especially when you are talking to someone and you run smack into a hot button issue for them and it turns out to be one of those issues. I did that talking to a nice lady at a local gun shop and some current-at-the-time troubles in Israel came up. Apparently, there are a number of Jewish Conspiracies I didn't know about and they are seemingly important to some people.
-
I for one was more worried about how a handful of cases would affect the health care system (excessive precautions, health care workers not showing up to work) and the economy, IE panic in the streets, than the actual disease. A few dozen cases would still be a statistical blip in a country of over 360 million people, but with the 24 hours news cycle it would cause a real problem.
You may remember I did not take that notion very seriously either.
-
You may remember I did not take that notion very seriously either.
You might not have taken it seriously, but there was a very real problem at presby here in dallas with capacity when they shut sections down and quarantined exposed folks.
-
You might not have taken it seriously, but there was a very real problem at presby here in dallas with capacity when they shut sections down and quarantined exposed folks.
Yeah, no shinola. DFW has a population a little less than Israel's. Dallas Presby is the third largest hospital in the metroplex, with around 900 beds. I bet folks in Israel would be more than a bit upset to find out that around a little less than 1/4 or so of their hospital capacity just went tango uniform due to a recent african immigrant and his carry-on baggage.
Easy to discount it from afar where the consequences of not dealing with it properly are negligible.
-
I'm still disappointed we didn't get TEOTWAWKIZOMBIEAPOCOLYPSEBLACKDEATHPLAGUE we need to restore balance to mother Gaia by reducing the human infestation causing all the problems.
:'(
-
You may remember I did not take that notion very seriously either.
Yeah, no shinola. DFW has a population a little less than Israel's. Dallas Presby is the third largest hospital in the metroplex, with around 900 beds. I bet folks in Israel would be more than a bit upset to find out that around a little less than 1/4 or so of their hospital capacity just went tango uniform due to a recent african immigrant and his carry-on baggage.
Easy to discount it from afar where the consequences of not dealing with it properly are negligible.
900 beds isn't something to sneeze at. A couple cases and you lose capacity to deal with actual health threats.
-
900 beds isn't something to sneeze at. A couple cases and you lose capacity to deal with actual health threats.
True that
-
Wasn't it the quarantine of the medical workers that took it down?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Wasn't it the quarantine of the medical workers that took it down?
Not just that, but the inability to make good and sure spaces where infected folks spent time were free from ebola virus. It is one thing if Obvious Ebola Guy goes through the ER, down hallways, and into a room or wing. There are several folks who can make sure every place he went was cataloged and sanitized. Quite another when one of his nurses is infected, as she goes LOTS more places where she could leave ebola. Or a janitor, who then goes to every mother-loving space in the hospital. If he is doing his job right, he touches danged near every horizontal surface in the hospital.
Take a gander upthread and look at Perry's infectious disease committee plan for the next rodeo. They way they planned it out addresses all this sort of thing.
-
Yeah, no shinola. DFW has a population a little less than Israel's. Dallas Presby is the third largest hospital in the metroplex, with around 900 beds. I bet folks in Israel would be more than a bit upset to find out that around a little less than 1/4 or so of their hospital capacity just went tango uniform due to a recent african immigrant and his carry-on baggage.
And they had the advantage of Med City Dallas being just up the road. Maybe 10min by ambulance door to door, and a lot less if the driver started out knowing to bypass Presbyterian. Dallas Medical Center maybe 15min down Forest if traffic is heavy or the driver is scared. Also several specialists just off the premises and some doc-in-a-box minor emergency clinics nearby. They could turn even ER inbounds away with solid confidence that it wouldn't be a serious delay. A hospital in a less-well-served area wouldn't be able to redirect emergencies coming in so easily. Here, or several of the neighboring cities, it would be at least a 30 minute trip to the next proper ER.
Or a janitor, who then goes to every mother-loving space in the hospital. If he is doing his job right, he touches danged near every horizontal surface in the hospital.
Maintenance more than janitor; they're not elbow deep in sanitizer all day, and their logs are generally with the business side rather than the medical side. They can also carry germs to places even the janitors rarely see, (boiler room, crawl spaces, etc.) which then get passed by other maintenance workers to new locations.
-
Compare this to the predictions that had been made in this thread. Dozens of dead, etc. People actually started a thread on how to isolate your child if they get ebola.
-
This thread was very interesting to go back through in light of the COVID...thank God we didn’t have an Ebola outbreak can you imagine the insanity???
-
This thread was very interesting to go back through in light of the COVID...thank God we didn’t have an Ebola outbreak can you imagine the insanity???
Very interesting thread to bring back from the dead. I had certainly forgotten about it. Bedlamite was a bit prescient on page one already.
I'm waiting for something like this to pop up in India or China.
-
Covid has been a quite useful tool to gauge who can be on your pandemic team and who just needs to get shot as soon as they are in range like a zulu.
-
Can you imagine the insanity if that outbreak would have happened during the Trump admin?
-
IIRC, Marburg was actually airborne... Most of the "local" bugs required spray for contamination. I suspect that if we had had an actual pandemic, we would have seen actual quarantines, instead of the play-acting that we got.
During the first part of the "two weeks to flatten," I actually saw mass transit buses dropping off workers at local healthcare places. WIth long-term care patients. And then driving on to their next stop on their normal route.
-
I see I've been spreading my special type of sunshine for longer than I thought.
The Bush/Obama years broke me :laugh:
-
I don't think that Marburg is an airborne virus -- it's spread by direct contact with infected body fluids
-
Can you imagine the insanity if that outbreak would have happened during the Trump admin?
I imagine the media would have had actual heart attacks on the air.
However, I doubt Trump would have transported ebola patients back to the US and put them in a hospital in the middle of a major city that wasn't really set up to handle it. I think Obama was trying to start a crisis. If it was a distraction, I don't remember what else was happening at that time.
Which was the Chinese virus that got into the US during the Obama years? (Swine flu?) It didn't spread like COVID, but it was a serious outbreak and the media never really got the vapors over it like COVID.
-
I imagine the media would have had actual heart attacks on the air.
However, I doubt Trump would have transported ebola patients back to the US and put them in a hospital in the middle of a major city that wasn't really set up to handle it. I think Obama was trying to start a crisis. If it was a distraction, I don't remember what else was happening at that time.
Which was the Chinese virus that got into the US during the Obama years? (Swine flu?) It didn't spread like COVID, but it was a serious outbreak and the media never really got the vapors over it like COVID.
Yeah, manbirdpig flu about ten years ago.
-
IIRC, Marburg was actually airborne... Most of the "local" bugs required spray for contamination. I suspect that if we had had an actual pandemic, we would have seen actual quarantines, instead of the play-acting that we got.
During the first part of the "two weeks to flatten," I actually saw mass transit buses dropping off workers at local healthcare places. WIth long-term care patients. And then driving on to their next stop on their normal route.
Mass transit is probably the real super spreader, "they're" not going to tell us tho.
-
Mass transit is probably the real super spreader, "they're" not going to tell us tho.
The elites don't ride mass transit so that's not their problem