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Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Hawkmoon on March 14, 2017, 08:36:14 PM



Title: We're doomed.
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 14, 2017, 08:36:14 PM
Again? Still?

Time is running out. Literally. Kids can't tell time.

http://kfor.com/2017/03/12/study-4-in-5-oklahoma-city-students-cant-read-clocks/

Thanks (?) to the proliferation of digital devices, 80 percent of kids 6 to 12 in Oklahoma City don't know how to tell time on an analog clock. I find that ironic, because I prefer analog clocks for the simple reason that I can tell the time by looking at it -- no need to, like, read it.

I think we learned to tell time in the second or third grade. That would have been age 7 or 8.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: RoadKingLarry on March 14, 2017, 09:32:26 PM
Oklahoma City is kind of screwed up to begin with.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: 230RN on March 15, 2017, 02:19:51 AM
"It's a quarter to five."

"Huh?"

I agree about being able to tell the time with a single glance, as opposed to "actively reading" a digital.  That's why I only use wrist watches with great big hands.

"Huh?  Wrist watch?  What's that?"

"That big honkin' thing on my wrist."

"Why don't you just look at your phone?"



Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 15, 2017, 03:19:06 AM
Back in the early 1980s digital watches, clocks, and the like were really just starting to come down in price and starting to come into vogue.

I had gotten a new digital watch, and I was talking with a friend when he saw it and commented that he didn't like them because in his mind he had to translate the numbers into hand positions on the face of an analog clock to get a sense for what time it really was.

Since then I've met a number of people who are the same way. Generally they're all older and grew up with analog clocks.

I can honestly say that I've never had that problem. I feel equally comfortable that I know what time it is no matter whether it's digital output or analog hand positions.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: fistful on March 15, 2017, 03:20:33 AM
I can honestly say that I've never had that problem. I feel equally comfortable that I know what time it is no matter whether it's digital output or analog hand positions.

Yo tambien.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: wmenorr67 on March 15, 2017, 03:50:27 AM
Oklahoma City is kind of screwed up to begin with.

That is an understatement.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: 230RN on March 15, 2017, 04:12:57 AM

...
I can honestly say that I've never had that problem. I feel equally comfortable that I know what time it is no matter whether it's digital output or analog hand positions.

I'm the same way, equally facile with getting a sense of the time with either; 4:45 comes across quantitatively the same as quarter to five, but it's easier and faster <ahem> "data acquisition" with a clock face.  WRT wrist watches, I can be involved with something (like driving, eating, or soldering a joint) and still tell the time out of the corner of my eye.

I guess you could call me biclockival.

Well, you know, like bilingual.

Oh, never mind.

My coffee's finally ready.

Terry


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Nick1911 on March 15, 2017, 05:07:19 AM
/shrug/

Time marches on.  Common skillsets change with needs and technology.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: fistful on March 15, 2017, 05:15:43 AM
I guess you could call me biclockival.

Well, you know, like bilingual.



Ambihorological?


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Ben on March 15, 2017, 05:41:47 AM
I also have no problem going back and forth. I wonder how much of the problem is the part of the brain that does math vs the part of the brain that does visual perception? I have one of those nerd clocks I used to keep in my office at work that shows each analog number as a math formula. I had a few instances of people who could read an analog clock that would hesitate when they looked at it to check the time.

I always thought that was interesting, because to me, telling time on an analog clock is all about knowing the position of the hands and has nothing to do with the numbers. In German, it's common to say, "quarter past three", but instead of saying "quarter to four", you say, "three quarters of four". Though you can also say something like "fifteen hours forty five".


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: fistful on March 15, 2017, 06:19:00 AM
I started wearing digital watches when I was, I think, eight years old. I was never very good at reading analog clocks until I stopped wearing digital on my wrist, and even then it took several years before it was second nature.


I always thought that was interesting, because to me, telling time on an analog clock is all about knowing the position of the hands and has nothing to do with the numbers.

Until you come across one of those govt-issue clocks with a 24-hour dial.




Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: RevDisk on March 15, 2017, 06:43:01 AM
Again? Still?

Time is running out. Literally. Kids can't tell time.

http://kfor.com/2017/03/12/study-4-in-5-oklahoma-city-students-cant-read-clocks/

Thanks (?) to the proliferation of digital devices, 80 percent of kids 6 to 12 in Oklahoma City don't know how to tell time on an analog clock. I find that ironic, because I prefer analog clocks for the simple reason that I can tell the time by looking at it -- no need to, like, read it.

I think we learned to tell time in the second or third grade. That would have been age 7 or 8.

Astrolabe. Sextant. Sundial. I mean a proper sundial, not the garden type. In a proper language like Greek or Latin. No stickin' newfangled foreign numbers stolen from Arabia, who stole it from India. I mean, do you kids today even know what type of stone to use to polarize light so that you can read the Sun on a partially cloudy day?

Same exact situation. Technology changes. Analog clocks hold no inherient superiority or usefulness to digital numbering, electric or not.

Were kids of your generation, likely HIGHER than 80%, being unable to operate those devices?


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 15, 2017, 06:49:32 AM
Were kids of your generation, likely HIGHER than 80%, being unable to operate those devices?

Except that older analog clocks and watches don't need batteries.

Of course, you have to remember to wind them. Before the creation of self-winding watches, part of the routine of going to bed was to wind the alarm clock and then wind your wrist watch. The wall clock in my parents' dining room got wound once a week, on Sunday. Most of you youngsters have probably seen wind-up clocks and watches only in museums.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 15, 2017, 07:02:19 AM
The astrolabe and sextant were highly specialized tools that were NOT used by the common individual. They were expensive, and they required more than the ability to count to use.

Clocks, on the other hand, have been in common circulation in one form or another and available to just about everyone at some point during their day since the middle 1700s, and starting in the late 1800s clocks became cheap enough, reliable enough, and common enough that they became virtually ubiquitous.

How to tell time on the clock face was being taught commonly in American schools before the Civil War.

In 1970 when I was in kindergarten we each had a little clock that we assembled ourselves that we used to learn how to tell time. You can also buy similar things ready made by Plaskool and other kids manufacturers.

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think there's every been "Kiddy's First Astrolabe" available from any of them.

I really suspect that this is less a change in technology and more a change in focus given the increasing diminishment of standards of education in the United States.





Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Ben on March 15, 2017, 07:03:19 AM
Except that older analog clocks and watches don't need batteries.

Of course, you have to remember to wind them. Before the creation of self-winding watches, part of the routine of going to bed was to wind the alarm clock and then wind your wrist watch. The wall clock in my parents' dining room got wound once a week, on Sunday. Most of you youngsters have probably seen wind-up clocks and watches only in museums.

Heh. I remember those. I think that was the first bedroom clock my parents got me. I can't remember how good (or not) I was about keeping it wound. Thank goodness for "time"* on the telephone.  :laugh:

I don't think when growing up, we ever got any of the first "digital" clocks, which were pre-LED and just had "rolling" numbers. My parents didn't buy a digital until the LEDs came out. Though even now, my dad only uses analog clocks.


*Does anyone else remember calling "time" on the telephone, pre-NIST on the Interwebz? I wonder if that even exists anymore.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: mtnbkr on March 15, 2017, 07:03:33 AM
Except that older analog clocks and watches don't need batteries.

Of course, you have to remember to wind them. Before the creation of self-winding watches, part of the routine of going to bed was to wind the alarm clock and then wind your wrist watch. The wall clock in my parents' dining room got wound once a week, on Sunday. Most of you youngsters have probably seen wind-up clocks and watches only in museums.

And your point?  Wind-up (manual or automatic) clocks and watches require maintenance or they stop working.  People able to perform such maintenance are becoming rare.  A wind-up watch has, without maintenance, a finite accurate timekeeping lifespan (my Seiko automatic lasted about 10 years before it struggled).  Digital watches effectively don't wear out except for battery changes (I've had them last upwards of a decade) and are more accurate.  Battery changes are quicker, easier, and more foolproof than mechanical watch servicing.  $2 battery vs $100 service.  $100 in batteries would keep the watch going centuries after I'm gone (50 batteries at 10yrs per, give or take).

I personally prefer the aesthetics of an analog watch or clock, but there's no quantitative measure that shows them as superior timepieces.

Oh, and I'm 43, so I don't know if that makes me a "youngster" or not. 

Chris


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: RevDisk on March 15, 2017, 07:05:28 AM
Except that older analog clocks and watches don't need batteries.

Of course, you have to remember to wind them. Before the creation of self-winding watches, part of the routine of going to bed was to wind the alarm clock and then wind your wrist watch. The wall clock in my parents' dining room got wound once a week, on Sunday. Most of you youngsters have probably seen wind-up clocks and watches only in museums.

An extremely large number of analog clocks are electric. Probably the majority of them, except for watches that are clearly fashion statements moreso than timepieces.

Also, you can make a digital clock that is non-electric. Rare as hell, but it's obviously mechanically possible.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Ben on March 15, 2017, 07:05:46 AM
In 1970 when I was in kindergarten we each had a little clock that we assembled ourselves that we used to learn how to tell time. You can also buy similar things ready made by Plaskool and other kids manufacturers.

That's a really good point. I bought my now 4 year old grand niece one of those Playskool "learn the clock" things a couple of years ago. So somehow the idea that we should know analog is still around.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: mtnbkr on March 15, 2017, 07:11:45 AM
That's a really good point. I bought my now 4 year old grand niece one of those Playskool "learn the clock" things a couple of years ago. So somehow the idea that we should know analog is still around.

Both my kids were taught how to read analog clocks in elementary school.

Chris


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 15, 2017, 07:39:15 AM
There are solar-powered digital clocks that require no external batteries and very little solar radiation to keep their internal battery charged.

Let's also not forget that there are digital clocks that display both the traditional analog dial and digital time: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=style_7.analoganddigitalclockaw_7


"And your point?  Wind-up (manual or automatic) clocks and watches require maintenance or they stop working.  People able to perform such maintenance are becoming rare."

Yep, it's getting harder and harder to find people who can service old mechanical clocks. I know of three in the northern Virginia area, and it is NOT cheap by any stretch of the imagination.

I have several old mechanical clocks that have come down through the family, one a mantle clock from the 1880s and another a wind up bedroom type alarm clock from probably the 1890s or early 1900s.

Both need work to get them to run, but for the two of them it would be a minimum of $200, and likely closer to $300-$400.

Neither one is particularly valuable, so the only reason I'd want to get them working is nostalgia.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: fistful on March 15, 2017, 07:51:11 AM
I bought a wind-up alarm clock at China-Mart less than ten years ago.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: makattak on March 15, 2017, 07:52:25 AM
*Does anyone else remember calling "time" on the telephone, pre-NIST on the Interwebz? I wonder if that even exists anymore.

In answer to your question:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaking_clock

Quote
In addition, the United States Naval Observatory operates two speaking clocks: in Washington, D.C. at +1 202 762 1401 or +1 202 762 1069, and in Colorado Springs, Colorado at +1 719 567 6742. The time as provided by Tellme voice portal is available by dialing non-toll-free number 408-752-8052.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 15, 2017, 07:56:12 AM
A few years ago I got a digital weather station that has the time that is set automatically from the atomic clock. You can also buy a variety of desk and wall clocks that set themselves to the atomic clock.

That's neat, but your cell phone does exactly the same thing.


At one time there were also shortwave and ham band radio time check channels. I'll be damned, NIST still does it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWV_(radio_station)


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 15, 2017, 08:23:55 AM

*Does anyone else remember calling "time" on the telephone, pre-NIST on the Interwebz? I wonder if that even exists anymore.

Yes.

Just tested it. Still works. Further evidence of the onset of Alzheimer's -- I still remember the number to call for the time: S-P-R-I-N-G-S (777-4647)


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 15, 2017, 08:25:47 AM
And your point?  ...

Oh, and I'm 43, so I don't know if that makes me a "youngster" or not. 

Chris

Q.E.D.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: fistful on March 15, 2017, 08:26:47 AM

*Does anyone else remember calling "time" on the telephone, pre-NIST on the Interwebz? I wonder if that even exists anymore.


I've very rarely called for the time, but I used to call the KMOX weather hot-line multiple times a day. I had the number memorized, which was good, as I was literally dialing the number on a rotary phone. That was in the before time.

What is a NIST?


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 15, 2017, 08:36:35 AM
National Institute of Standards and Technology.

Their big campus is in Maryland along 270 not far outside of DC.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: MechAg94 on March 15, 2017, 08:44:31 AM
My parents still have a rotary phone on the wall they had when I was a kid.  Works too.  It has an ear piece on a cord and you talk into a speaker hard mounted on the phone.  My nieces didn't think it actually worked until I answered the phone on it one day when I was there.  They thought I was kidding at first. 


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: RevDisk on March 15, 2017, 08:46:33 AM
Also, there's some confusion in the mix. "Analog clocks" is generally referring to clocks that have 1 through 12 in a circle. Most "analog" clocks these days are actually electronic, unless they are antiques. The exception being high end watches, primarily as a fashion statement. You can make a numeric clock that runs off gears and springs, people do for art projects on a regular basis.

What I'm trying and failing to understand is why folks think the 1 through 12 in a circle is a superior method of displaying the time rather than in a straight numeric fashion, if they both use the same internals. Which, they mostly do. Except for niche antique or fashion circumstances. Is that the argument?

Or is it that clockwork gear and spring clocks are superior? By what metric?


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: RevDisk on March 15, 2017, 08:51:36 AM

I've very rarely called for the time, but I used to call the KMOX weather hot-line multiple times a day. I had the number memorized, which was good, as I was literally dialing the number on a rotary phone. That was in the before time.

What is a NIST?

NIST does a bunch of stuff, but they also control time. Quite literally. Though they share that control with Paris. NIST runs the master clocks for the entire US, and most of the world. GPS relies on NIST time. All of modern technology depends on time, and anyone with a brain gets their time using NTP or GPS.

Proper bunch of geeks, too. They were kind enough let me play around with some of their quantum engineering equipment. Absolutely loved seeing their single photon detector rig. Life changing experience, right there.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 15, 2017, 08:53:53 AM
My parents still have a rotary phone on the wall they had when I was a kid.  Works too.  It has an ear piece on a cord and you talk into a speaker hard mounted on the phone.  My nieces didn't think it actually worked until I answered the phone on it one day when I was there.  They thought I was kidding at first. 



So.....

A candlestick phone?

I have a reproduction one of those with the rotary dial on it. Always wanted the real thing, but they have gotten to be SO expensive.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 15, 2017, 08:55:54 AM
Also, there's some confusion in the mix. "Analog clocks" is generally referring to clocks that have 1 through 12 in a circle. Most "analog" clocks these days are actually electronic, unless they are antiques. The exception being high end watches, primarily as a fashion statement. You can make a numeric clock that runs off gears and springs, people do for art projects on a regular basis.

What I'm trying and failing to understand is why folks think the 1 through 12 in a circle is a superior method of displaying the time rather than in a straight numeric fashion, if they both use the same internals. Which, they mostly do. Except for niche antique or fashion circumstances. Is that the argument?

Or is it that clockwork gear and spring clocks are superior? By what metric?



I don't think that anyone is arguing that at all.

What the original statement said is that kids these days are increasing unable to tell time based on looking at a traditional clock with hands -- an analog clock.

Is that a good thing, a bad thing, or just a thing?

Who knows.


And, actually, looking through this thread, I'm not seeing much if any confusion about the terms digital vs analog. It looks to me as if everyone has used the terms properly, and understands how they're being used.

No one is arguing that most analog clocks these days are run with batteries using electronic drive mechanisms. All of the working analog clocks in my house (3 or 4 of them) have electronic movements.

The analog clocks in my house what have mechanical movements don't work because they need to be serviced.

And certainly no one at all is arguing that a wind up clock is somehow superior to an electronic one, be it digital OR analog display.



Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: HeroHog on March 15, 2017, 09:17:31 AM
When my last wristwatch died we were down to all digital clocks in the house and I was fine with that. I even decided that seeing as I "lived a life of leisure" now I could live without a watch and just use my iPhone. I made it a few months before giving in and ordering a cheap watch off Amazon!

I ordered this cheap ($11.99!!!) but surprisingly nice and big watch: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00X66BZ6I/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BE9YPYU5L._UX425_.jpg)

Japanese quartz movement with analog display
Protective glass crystal dial window
Silver stainless steel case and band
3ATM water resistant for swimming (neither diving nor press button under water.)
Warranty: 2-Year Amazon.com Warranty provided by Asurion, instead of the manufacturer.

:old:


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: dogmush on March 15, 2017, 09:22:03 AM
My wristwatch updates it's time and position from GPS satellites as well as the atomic clock's HF (if in range) and is solar powered.  It tells me the time with hands that move in a circle and point at the numbers 1-12.

Is it old fashioned or not?  I don't know which side I'm on.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 15, 2017, 09:26:18 AM
I got out of wearing a wrist watch years ago.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: HeroHog on March 15, 2017, 09:27:28 AM
Slightly OT: Anyone else have issues where their body chemistry "eats" watches? I have ruined several $100+ watches due to corrosion of the base metal! Granted, it takes a few years but it sucks to have a nice watch that was gifted to you and that you really like get so pitted and corroded that you can't wear it anymore. I should get a case of these $12 specials!

My father couldn't wear any digital/electronic watches. Something about his body killed them in a week be they analog or digital display, in a week or less they would be dead. Dead as in ruined, not just drained of power! He wound up wearing self winding mechanical watches all his life.

[tinfoil]


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Ben on March 15, 2017, 09:31:40 AM
Yes.

Just tested it. Still works. Further evidence of the onset of Alzheimer's -- I still remember the number to call for the time: S-P-R-I-N-G-S (777-4647)

That caused me to remember "time" in CA. 555-1212. I just tried it (I'm cell only) and got verizon wireless 411.

On the windups, I still run a cuckoo clock that I have to wind (well, pull the chains) twice a day. Mostly for nostalgia. It keep quite accurate time though.

Edit: Nope, had it wrong. I think 555-1212 was always information. I just looked it up and we were "popcorn". Didn't work for me. Edit again, I wasn't that wrong. "Popcorn" for AT&T, 853-1212 for the old GTE (now Verizon).


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 15, 2017, 09:44:10 AM
Slightly OT: Anyone else have issues where their body chemistry "eats" watches? I have ruined several $100+ watches due to corrosion of the base metal! Granted, it takes a few years but it sucks to have a nice watch that was gifted to you and that you really like get so pitted and corroded that you can't wear it anymore. I should get a case of these $12 specials!

My father couldn't wear any digital/electronic watches. Something about his body killed them in a week be they analog or digital display, in a week or less they would be dead. Dead as in ruined, not just drained of power! He wound up wearing self winding mechanical watches all his life.

[tinfoil]

Oddly enough, my Mother had that problem.

Not all her life, but after she completed nursing school and did her initial nursing rotations, including a stint in one of the early nuclear medicine labs. After that, she could never keep a watch working for more than a few months.

Same thing, mechanical or digital, if she wore it -- wrist, pendant, or pocket -- it would be dead in short order.

A few months ago she and I were looking at stuff in her jewelry box and she still has the very nice ca 1958 ladies Bulova dress watch my father got her when they started dating.

It died several months after she got it, and only being worn a fairly limited time. She had it serviced once, trying to get it working again, but nothing the guy did would get it to work for more than a few minutes.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: mtnbkr on March 15, 2017, 10:10:16 AM
And certainly no one at all is arguing that a wind up clock is somehow superior to an electronic one, be it digital OR analog display.

I think hawkmoon argued both points.  Analog is better than digital, wind up is better than electric  I suppose next we'll be hearing about the benefits of horse drawn cart over those newfangled cars.  Sometimes the faux ludditism gets a bit tedious.

Chris


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Ben on March 15, 2017, 10:25:12 AM
My wristwatch updates it's time and position from GPS satellites as well as the atomic clock's HF (if in range) and is solar powered.  It tells me the time with hands that move in a circle and point at the numbers 1-12.

Is it old fashioned or not?  I don't know which side I'm on.

My wristwatch is solar powered, tells both analog and digital time in all time zones, and is an E6B flight computer. Only I can't see any of the non-analog numbers anymore with my old eyes without a magnifying glass.   I don't know which side of the argument I'm on either.  =D



Edited for sysdexlia.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: MillCreek on March 15, 2017, 10:28:16 AM
^^^Although I have several digital wristwatches, most of them Casio atomic, I usually wear an analog face wristwatch these days.  I am wearing a Citizen solar diver right now.  I have found that I can see the position of the hands and tell the time without my glasses on.  The digital watches, I need to have my regular or reading glasses on to see the time.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: fistful on March 15, 2017, 10:30:02 AM
I suppose next we'll be hearing about the benefits of horse drawn cart over those newfangled cars.  Sometimes the faux ludditism gets a bit tedious.

Chris


You'll receive my letter about that very topic in the next few  weeks. It will take some time, as I don't use the U.S. Post, with their new-fangled mail trains.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: makattak on March 15, 2017, 11:07:21 AM
On the "we're doomed" line- most children are not taught to write or read cursive. (http://www.eonline.com/news/481596/cursive-handwriting-will-no-longer-be-taught-in-schools-because-it-s-a-big-old-waste-of-time) (Note that COMMON CORE is dictating this move.)

I know, we're just beyond such things now because computers (as the stupid "e" article claims), except:

http://www.npr.org/2016/04/17/474525392/attention-students-put-your-laptops-away

Oh hey, look at that. Writing out notes is far better for learning and retention than typing them.

What an interesting unintended consequence.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: RoadKingLarry on March 15, 2017, 11:33:34 AM
Heh. I remember those. I think that was the first bedroom clock my parents got me. I can't remember how good (or not) I was about keeping it wound. Thank goodness for "time"* on the telephone.  :laugh:

I don't think when growing up, we ever got any of the first "digital" clocks, which were pre-LED and just had "rolling" numbers. My parents didn't buy a digital until the LEDs came out. Though even now, my dad only uses analog clocks.


*Does anyone else remember calling "time" on the telephone, pre-NIST on the Interwebz? I wonder if that even exists anymore.

Wasn't all that long ago (15-16 years) I had a list of "time and temp" numbers I would use making test calls when installing phone systems. Quick way to make sure I could get out on a call.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: fistful on March 15, 2017, 12:53:50 PM
http://www.npr.org/2016/04/17/474525392/attention-students-put-your-laptops-away

Oh hey, look at that. Writing out notes is far better for learning and retention than typing them.

What an interesting unintended consequence.


I've found that writing things is very helpful for me. Even if I never go back to look at what I've written, just the act of writing out the info helps solidify it in my mushy skull. I didn't know it was generally true. I just thought it was my "learning style."

Among the idiocies in that insipid article, I shall take umbrage with this bit of folderol:
Quote
Let's spend that time teaching kids that there is a difference between language used to text and tweet and proper, written English. It's no longer a matter of knowing "your" vs. "you're," it's learning that it's definitely never "ur."

The language you use to text and Tweet should be proper, written English, you lackwits. Maybe if people didn't treat digital communication as some kind of spelling/grammar-free zone, they wouldn't be so stupid that they cannot handle your/you're.

Also, the idea that cursive has no relevance to everyday life makes no sense. Sure, block printing has its place, but so does cursive. I use it nearly every day. If people aren't using it, it's because it's not being taught. Or, at least, not being learned.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: KD5NRH on March 15, 2017, 01:07:50 PM
At one time there were also shortwave and ham band radio time check channels. I'll be damned, NIST still does it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWV_(radio_station)

As much for the frequency standards as for time, most often.  Though I still think they should release a "Best of WWV" album.


Title: Re:
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 15, 2017, 01:28:01 PM
My shares in Amalgamated Buggy Whip Makers Inc are going to soar and you bitches will be sorry then!

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


Title: Re:
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 15, 2017, 01:30:47 PM
Quote
And certainly no one at all is arguing that a wind up clock is somehow superior to an electronic one, be it digital OR analog display.
I think hawkmoon argued both points.  Analog is better than digital, wind up is better than electric  I suppose next we'll be hearing about the benefits of horse drawn cart over those newfangled cars.  Sometimes the faux ludditism gets a bit tedious.

Chris


I didn't really read it that way. I read it as more a Pepperidge Farms remembahs kind of post...

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 15, 2017, 01:59:28 PM
I think hawkmoon argued both points.  Analog is better than digital, wind up is better than electric  I suppose next we'll be hearing about the benefits of horse drawn cart over those newfangled cars.  Sometimes the faux ludditism gets a bit tedious.


I do think analog display is better than digital, for the reason I stated -- with the analog display, your brain can translate hand positions into a meaningful message faster than you can read the numerals in a digital display. The same applies to autombile dashboards. I remember when digital dashboards were first being introduced. They didn't last long (although I know the manufacturers of some brands are trying them again).

I don't think you'll ever see a digital display in a race car. Many racers use 270-degree sweep instruments, and tape off most of the dial. They leave exposed only the range where the needle should be pointing when everything is normal. Makes checking the gauges very easy -- if you see the needle, you're good to go.

As to wind-up being better than electric -- I didn't say that. I said it has the advantage of not needing batteries. It also has the disadvantage of needing to be wound every day. It's a trade-off. I own a manual wind-up wrist watch and a self-winder, neither of which I have worn for many years. I wear an inexpensive, battery-powered imitation of a GI military issue watch. I also use a pocket calculator, but I haven't thrown away my slide rules.

On the other hand, I did jettison a digital caliper in favor of a dial caliper ...


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: KD5NRH on March 15, 2017, 02:10:06 PM
I do think analog display is better than digital, for the reason I stated -- with the analog display, your brain can translate hand positions into a meaningful message faster than you can read the numerals in a digital display. The same applies to autombile dashboards. I remember when digital dashboards were first being introduced. They didn't last long (although I know the manufacturers of some brands are trying them again).

This is where Knight Rider had it right; you gain a lot from also having the bar graph display, particularly colored, so there's a quick-reference graphic representation of the most critical quantities.  Most of the displays when I worked in processing at the cheese plant showed the numbers off to the side of a color-coded (and configurable on the fly, so you could adjust the green range for products with varying formulations and tolerances) set of bars.  Once you figured out the equations and the adjustments for the various cranky equipment, you could punch in your initial settings, tweak the bars to what you want to see, then crank it up and watch for green across the system.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: mtnbkr on March 15, 2017, 04:30:07 PM
On the "we're doomed" line- most children are not taught to write or read cursive. (http://www.eonline.com/news/481596/cursive-handwriting-will-no-longer-be-taught-in-schools-because-it-s-a-big-old-waste-of-time) (Note that COMMON CORE is dictating this move.)

I know, we're just beyond such things now because computers (as the stupid "e" article claims), except:

http://www.npr.org/2016/04/17/474525392/attention-students-put-your-laptops-away

Oh hey, look at that. Writing out notes is far better for learning and retention than typing them.

What an interesting unintended consequence.

As someone who hates writing in cursive (and writing in general), I'm not too worked up over this.  One can write notes in block letters (I did it all through college and grad school).  Cursive, even good cursive, is just guaranteeing nobody else will be able to read your writing.  I'm 43 and for the last 30-odd years, the only cursive I've written voluntarily was my signature (which is barely writing).  If there's a concrete need for it, I haven't run into it yet.  FWIW, I encourage my kids to "study with a pencil", so the practice didn't die with cursive.  Block letters work just fine for that.

Chris


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 15, 2017, 04:43:15 PM
There are times when I'll still sit down with a pen and legal pad and write a draft of something...

A story outline, a note to someone, whatever.

When I'm really paying attention to the ideas instead of the the writing, I end up with a very weird mix of cursive AND printed -- often with partial words in both... sometimes a single printed letter in the middle of a written word...



Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 15, 2017, 05:23:22 PM
My wristwatch is solar powered, tells both analog and digital time in all time zones, ...

 ??? Is analog time different from digital time? Who knew?


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: 230RN on March 15, 2017, 05:42:57 PM
RevDisk informed us:

Quote
NIST does a bunch of stuff, but they also control time. Quite literally. Though they share that control with Paris. NIST runs the master clocks for the entire US, and most of the world. GPS relies on NIST time. All of modern technology depends on time, and anyone with a brain gets their time using NTP or GPS.

The actual atomic clock is situated in the NIST building off Broadway in Boulder, Co.  The time signals generated thereby were transmitted through a subchannel of one of the Denver TV stations up to the time transmitters located in Fort Collins CO.

OK, so the Boulder Amateur Radio Club (BARC) used to have its meetings in their auditorium and they used to have a large digital display of the atomic clock time over the main entrance, just past the guard station.

Every time I went in there for a meeting, I'd make a big show of looking back and forth from my watch to the display until I caught the guards' attention, and then point to the display and  tell them, "It's slow."

Yeah, I know, I'm an



Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: fistful on March 15, 2017, 06:26:59 PM
Cursive, even good cursive, is just guaranteeing nobody else will be able to read your writing.

That's not true, but even if it were, a lot of writing isn't meant for other people to read.


There are times when I'll still sit down with a pen and legal pad and write a draft of something...

A story outline, a note to someone, whatever.

When I'm really paying attention to the ideas instead of the the writing, I end up with a very weird mix of cursive AND printed -- often with partial words in both... sometimes a single printed letter in the middle of a written word...

Same here, but I find it hard to avoid mixing the two styles, even when I try. The only time I do it intentionally is that some of the capital letters I'll rarely do in cursive. If a word starts with a capital I or G, for example, I'll often write the capital letter in block, and write the rest of the word in cursive.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: 230RN on March 15, 2017, 08:11:18 PM
At one point I was going to change my name to "Illegible Scrawl"


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: mtnbkr on March 16, 2017, 01:54:46 AM
That's not true, but even if it were, a lot of writing isn't meant for other people to read.

True.  Still, nobody has articulated to me yet why cursive is worthy of the time and effort in today's world other than "reasons".  What are the concrete benefits?  Keeping in mind, I learned it in school, found it a waste of time, and went back to block letters for my personal writing needs.  So far, I haven't been held back in life.

And if you want to say it's a "character" thing or part of being a well-rounded scholar/human/meat-popsicle, I'm sure we can come up with numerous other "skills" that are more worthy of the effort.

Chris


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: mtnbkr on March 16, 2017, 01:55:01 AM
At one point I was going to change my name to "Illegible Scrawl"

You too, eh? :D

Chris


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 16, 2017, 03:10:19 AM
Question about the atomic clock... specifically the time signal.

How do they adjust for the time lag between a clock 10 miles away receiving the signal vs a clock in, say, Eastport, Maine, about 2,300 air miles away?

Even though the signal travels at 186,000 miles per second, there's still a measurable lag.

And, if it's used to establish time for the GPS satellite network, that's even more of a signal lag


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: RoadKingLarry on March 16, 2017, 03:45:57 AM
Question about the atomic clock... specifically the time signal.

How do they adjust for the time lag between a clock 10 miles away receiving the signal vs a clock in, say, Eastport, Maine, about 2,300 air miles away?

Even though the signal travels at 186,000 miles per second, there's still a measurable lag.

And, if it's used to establish time for the GPS satellite network, that's even more of a signal lag

Negative vibes, always with the negative vibes...

https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/nist-radio-broadcasts-frequently-asked-questions-faq (https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/nist-radio-broadcasts-frequently-asked-questions-faq)

Quote
When I listen to WWV or WWVH, how accurate is the time?
The time is kept to within less than 0.0001 milliseconds of Coordinated Universal Time (UTC) at the transmitter site, but the signal is delayed as it travels from the radio station to your location. This delay increases the further that you are from the station, and the delay can vary by as much as 1 millisecond if the signal is bouncing between Earth and the ionosphere. However, for most users in the United States, the received accuracy should be less than 10 milliseconds (1/100 of a second).
Listening to the signals by telephone, the delays will be larger, but the time is usually accurate to within 30 milliseconds if you are using a landline. If you are using a cellular phone or a voice over Internet protocol (VOIP) connection, the delay can be much larger, but should still not exceed 150 milliseconds, based on International Telecommunication Union (ITU) recommendations for voice transmissions.




Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: TommyGunn on March 16, 2017, 06:04:09 AM
A few years ago I got a digital weather station that has the time that is set automatically from the atomic clock. You can also buy a variety of desk and wall clocks that set themselves to the atomic clock.

That's neat, but your cell phone does exactly the same thing.


At one time there were also shortwave and ham band radio time check channels. I'll be damned, NIST still does it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWV_(radio_station)

I had a clock radio that "set"  from the atomic clock.    It kept messing up on the date, a function you didn't see on the display unless you pressed a button.   This was important since day of week was set by the date function, and the alarm was set NOT  to go off on weekends.  But if the date function is wrong and it's monday,  but the clock thinks it's saturday,  no alarm.
I got rid of it and use a cheap  Timex clock radio with those red diode segments digital display.   Works great and keeps good time even if non-atomic.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: fistful on March 16, 2017, 06:32:44 AM
True.  Still, nobody has articulated to me yet why cursive is worthy of the time and effort in today's world other than "reasons".  What are the concrete benefits?  Keeping in mind, I learned it in school, found it a waste of time, and went back to block letters for my personal writing needs.  So far, I haven't been held back in life.


Just for perspective, that's been said about almost every subject taught in schools: music class, P.E., foreign languages, The Scarlet Letter, Hamlet, and the various branches of math and science, to name a few.

I think the usual answer is that people (or a lot of them) can write more quickly in cursive. Personally, I just find cursive easier, for the most part. Block letters are a little more like work. Cursive is comfortable. One letter flows into the next. YMMV

The obvious, not-so-personal answer to your question is "basic literacy." Cursive script is part of the English language. Does it seem sensible to spend so many years and so much money and effort on someone's education, and after all that, they can't read their parents' hand-writing, or a hand-written note from a boss or co-worker?

Now maybe us old folks shouldn't have been using cursive all this time, but that can't be changed. But I think if cursive is going to be dropped from the curriculum, it would only make sense if it were accompanied by a campaign to make people stop writing it. From my cold, dead hands...


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Ben on March 16, 2017, 06:35:27 AM
True.  Still, nobody has articulated to me yet why cursive is worthy of the time and effort in today's world other than "reasons".  What are the concrete benefits?  Keeping in mind, I learned it in school, found it a waste of time, and went back to block letters for my personal writing needs.  So far, I haven't been held back in life.

And if you want to say it's a "character" thing or part of being a well-rounded scholar/human/meat-popsicle, I'm sure we can come up with numerous other "skills" that are more worthy of the effort.

Chris

If I recall (and it may not be correctly) cursive was/is supposed to be a quicker and more efficient way to write. I'm also someone who switched to printing sometime past high school (we were always told typing or cursive for reports). I really have no idea why I switched - maybe because of my left-handedness, but I find printing easier for me (plus there's the legibility thing). I print in all caps, also don't know why, but that's just the way I started.

With the understanding that there is no real need for cursive, I find myself a little sad that it's disappearing.

On a tangent, I used to hate typing with a typewriter. Even though I don't type "correctly", I really took to typing on a computer keyboard. They weren't available until my Junior year in High School though, and then it was a teletype station with a big roll of paper.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: RevDisk on March 16, 2017, 06:43:22 AM
RevDisk informed us:

The actual atomic clock is situated in the NIST building off Broadway in Boulder, Co.  The time signals generated thereby were transmitted through a subchannel of one of the Denver TV stations up to the time transmitters located in Fort Collins CO.

OK, so the Boulder Amateur Radio Club (BARC) used to have its meetings in their auditorium and they used to have a large digital display of the atomic clock time over the main entrance, just past the guard station.

Every time I went in there for a meeting, I'd make a big show of looking back and forth from my watch to the display until I caught the guards' attention, and then point to the display and  tell them, "It's slow."

Yeah, I know, I'm an

Ok, that is funny. I hope the guards laughed.

I thought that the US had two official master clocks, just in case. Apparently that wasn't the case but now is again. NIST-F1 was the solo official US master clock. But now NIST-F2 is operational and planned to be accurate to 1 second every 300 million years. The backup is the U.S. Naval Observatory master clock in DC, and the USNO Alternate Master Clock in Colorado. 

I'm kicking myself for not going for a tour last time I was in Boulder. How was it?


Question about the atomic clock... specifically the time signal.

How do they adjust for the time lag between a clock 10 miles away receiving the signal vs a clock in, say, Eastport, Maine, about 2,300 air miles away?

Even though the signal travels at 186,000 miles per second, there's still a measurable lag.

And, if it's used to establish time for the GPS satellite network, that's even more of a signal lag

For radio, you do indeed get lag. You calculate it by your distance from the transmitter. It's a fixed variable, as the US is only growing by 1cm per year. Give or take. It's a rough estimate, but generally within tens of milliseconds. Which isn't bad. NTP is similar accuracy. If it's important enough to matter, they've already factored it in.

With GPS, the lag is the source of the accuracy and why you need multiple satellites. You compare the transmissions from the different sources and you get a location. Nifty thing is, the entire system is dependent on super accurate timing. Tens of nanosecond range, rather than millisecond. The amount of lag isn't important, it's how precisely you can measure the lag that defines the accuracy. In another five years, we'll have GNSS receivers that can use GPS, GLONASS, Galileo and BeiDou-2.

Nifty bit of trivia, GPS compensates for Relativistic speed impact on time.



Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Nick1911 on March 16, 2017, 06:49:37 AM
I actually have a rubidium frequency standard in a box in the basement.  The price was right, although I haven't found a use for it.  Figure it could be used for calibrating test equipment or something.

Not quite a caesium fountain, but still kinda neat to have an actual atomic clock :-)


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: MechAg94 on March 16, 2017, 07:57:03 AM
Personally, I think cursive writing is still a useful tool to teach.  I think kids would learn better without being in front of a computer all the time anyway.  Learn to write their thoughts down by hand. 

I use printed letters a lot, but mostly so that others could read my writing.  I read it fine, but my writing tends to be a bit sloppy.  I still use cursive for writing notes or to do lists and such.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: makattak on March 16, 2017, 09:32:23 AM
As someone who hates writing in cursive (and writing in general), I'm not too worked up over this.  One can write notes in block letters (I did it all through college and grad school).  Cursive, even good cursive, is just guaranteeing nobody else will be able to read your writing.  I'm 43 and for the last 30-odd years, the only cursive I've written voluntarily was my signature (which is barely writing).  If there's a concrete need for it, I haven't run into it yet.  FWIW, I encourage my kids to "study with a pencil", so the practice didn't die with cursive.  Block letters work just fine for that.

Chris

But you can READ cursive, correct?

The best way to be able to read it is to be able to produce it oneself. The problem is not only that they can't write it, but they can't read it, either.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: mtnbkr on March 16, 2017, 09:55:08 AM
But you can READ cursive, correct?

The best way to be able to read it is to be able to produce it oneself. The problem is not only that they can't write it, but they can't read it, either.

Depends on the scribe. 

Again, I point out that writing or reading cursive is not a particularly valuable skill these days.  And, unlike knowing a dead language like Latin, or understanding the Krebs Cycle, doesn't really contribute to a larger understanding of the world and how it works.  I suppose if you stumbled across  a letter written in cursive, it might be unfortunate that you can't read it, but it would be the same as if that letter was written in Sanskrit.  That doesn't imply I should go out and learn Sanskrit, eh?

I think a lot of this smacks of "by jiminy, if it was good enough for me, it's good enough for these whippersnappers".  Nobody has yet articulated where being adept in writing cursive solves real world problems.  I'd rather my kids focus on the 3 Rs, or learn how to manage a budget, balance a checkbook, or even check the oil on their car before they worry about cursive writing.

Chris


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: makattak on March 16, 2017, 10:12:03 AM
Depends on the scribe. 

Again, I point out that writing or reading cursive is not a particularly valuable skill these days.  And, unlike knowing a dead language like Latin, or understanding the Krebs Cycle, doesn't really contribute to a larger understanding of the world and how it works.  I suppose if you stumbled across  a letter written in cursive, it might be unfortunate that you can't read it, but it would be the same as if that letter was written in Sanskrit.  That doesn't imply I should go out and learn Sanskrit, eh?

I think a lot of this smacks of "by jiminy, if it was good enough for me, it's good enough for these whippersnappers".  Nobody has yet articulated where being adept in writing cursive solves real world problems.  I'd rather my kids focus on the 3 Rs, or learn how to manage a budget, balance a checkbook, or even check the oil on their car before they worry about cursive writing.

Chris

Actually, I'm noting that being unable to read or write in cursive doesn't appear to be beneficial, and I'm not keen on jettisoning it because some people believe it has no use now.

Why don't we also throw out grammar rules because technology has clearly progressed beyond them, u no wut im sain?


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 16, 2017, 10:13:48 AM
"That doesn't imply I should go out and learn Sanskrit, eh?"

Well yes, it does. How else would you gain a greater knowledge of the world and unlock the knowledge contained in that letter?

Luddite.

:rofl:


Oh, and it's very nice that you'd go to all the trouble to lean Sanskrit just so that you could read Mrs. Patel's shopping list.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: KD5NRH on March 16, 2017, 10:18:49 AM
I actually have a rubidium frequency standard in a box in the basement.  The price was right, although I haven't found a use for it.  Figure it could be used for calibrating test equipment or something.

Build it into a Radio Shack alarm clock, stuff the whole mess in a small briefcase and take it to school to show off.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 16, 2017, 10:21:13 AM
"Why don't we also throw out grammar rules because technology has clearly progressed beyond them, u no wut im sain?"

I'm a wordsmith in a world largely populated by people like Mtnbkr -- computer/system people.

Unfortunately, especially among the younger ones, there is a decided leaning toward exactly that -- why do we need to know this crap (anything that isn't expressed in 1s and 0s)?

Some time ago one of them was asked to prepare a white paper for presentation to our customer. No one in the project team thought to either check the paper before it was submitted, run it past one of the people on my team, just let him run with it and send it directly to the customer.

It was a *expletive deleted*ing disaster, and gave that customer a VERY poor opinion of our program.

I'd say the guy's paper was unintelligible, but it would have to have been several degrees BETTER to achieve unintelligible.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: mtnbkr on March 16, 2017, 10:25:29 AM
Actually, I'm noting that being unable to read or write in cursive doesn't appear to be beneficial, and I'm not keen on jettisoning it because some people believe it has no use now.

Why don't we also throw out grammar rules because technology has clearly progressed beyond them, u no wut im sain?

There is clearly a difference between modes of handwriting, and grammar rules and spelling. This is not a technology concern, but one of utility.  There is no inherent value, that has been articulated to me, in cursive vs other means of writing other than some people seem very attached to it.  Frankly, it reminds of the Morse Code arguments involving amateur radio operators, but at least they can articulate concrete benefits (lower power requirements, ability to communicate through interference that would inhibit voice comms, etc).

Again, I'd rather see the time devoted to teaching skills that are otherwise ignored.  How about some basic economics or provide a greater understanding in how credit works?  Oh, we need to devote weeks to penmanship instead.

Chris


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: mtnbkr on March 16, 2017, 10:27:48 AM
"Why don't we also throw out grammar rules because technology has clearly progressed beyond them, u no wut im sain?"

I'm a wordsmith in a world largely populated by people like Mtnbkr -- computer/system people.

Unfortunately, especially among the younger ones, there is a decided leaning toward exactly that -- why do we need to know this crap (anything that isn't expressed in 1s and 0s)?

Some time ago one of them was asked to prepare a white paper for presentation to our customer. No one in the project team thought to either check the paper before it was submitted, run it past one of the people on my team, just let him run with it and send it directly to the customer.

It was a *expletive deleted*ing disaster, and gave that customer a VERY poor opinion of our program.

I'd say the guy's paper was unintelligible, but it would have to have been several degrees BETTER to achieve unintelligible.

I don't tolerate that sort of thing in my Org and I insist on peer review of documents and presentations.  This is on top of having our own documentation and compliance team (something I spearheaded I might add).

Chris


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: fistful on March 16, 2017, 11:00:04 AM
mtnbkr,

I gave an explanation up near the top of this page. Essentially, it's because cursive is still in common use, by people just a couple of decades older than your kids (and maybe even by their peers, for all I know). That is, the people they'll be working for and with in years to come. Being able to read cursive is still a part of basic literacy for English-speaking people. Learning to read a language or alphabet usually goes along with being able to write it. You learn one along with the other.

By jiminy.

Also, your kids might be glad they learned cursive, since it's easier to write than printing.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: mtnbkr on March 16, 2017, 11:24:50 AM
Fistful, I haven't seen an example of cursive writing in the professional world ever.  Not saying it doesn't happen, but in 20 years and 3 companies, I haven't seen any correspondence or comms intended for professional consumption written in cursive.  Moving outside the professional realm, what few handwritten letters I've received, including greeting cards, have all been block writing, even from older folks whom you'd think were well versed in cursive.  I wouldn't say it's in "common use" outside signatures.  It's an artifact of a bygone era when most non-verbal communications were written by hand and the speed and flow of cursive were a benefit to rapid transcription. 

By all means, keep practicing and teach your kids in your own time, but let's replace it with more meaningful instruction in the schools.  Again, I point out a lack of useful instruction in basic life skills.  Kids get out of school not able to balance a checkbook, maintain an automobile, or understand interest rates and loans.

Chris


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 16, 2017, 12:41:46 PM
I don't tolerate that sort of thing in my Org and I insist on peer review of documents and presentations.  This is on top of having our own documentation and compliance team (something I spearheaded I might add).

Chris

You think we do? Everyone on that team went outside of established processes. And the LPM got his ass handed to him when the DCIO for State handed our program manager a bag of dicks and told him to eat them.

That, however, is really beside the point.

The point is, that numpty little <obscene gerund> boy genius couldn't conjugate his way out of a paper bag if he were given all of the parts of speech in correct order.

Somehow he got through elementary, middle, and high schools AND got a college degree without knowing that be is a verb. Tell him its an intransitive verb and I bet that he'd wet his pants.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: fistful on March 16, 2017, 12:55:48 PM
Fistful, I haven't seen an example of cursive writing in the professional world ever. 


I'll have to take that with a grain of salt. Would you even notice which script it was in? I couldn't tell you how often I've seen it. I wouldn't remember. I don't remember precisely because I can read one as well as the other. Because they cruelly beat it into me at school.  =)

I find it hard to believe it's that vanishingly rare in the workplace, considering how many people over the age of 30 are in the workforce, and the vast majority of them were taught cursive in school. You would expect it to crop up now and then. I wouldn't want to be walking around without knowing how to read it.


An interesting article (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/once-all-but-left-for-dead-is-cursive-handwriting-making-a-comeback/2016/07/26/24e59d34-4489-11e6-bc99-7d269f8719b1_story.html?utm_term=.bdc9978df7e4)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursive


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 16, 2017, 02:12:51 PM
But you can READ cursive, correct?

The best way to be able to read it is to be able to produce it oneself. The problem is not only that they can't write it, but they can't read it, either.

True only to a point.

I'm already well into being a senior citizen, so my parents were depression-era. My father's cursive handwriting was extremely neat, consistent, and small, but difficult to read. My mother's cursive could not be read by anyone other than my mother.

My late wife was born and educated in South America, and she trained as a designer. Her cursive was obviously the product of someone who was very artistic and creative. It was also illegible.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: fistful on March 16, 2017, 02:35:42 PM
 I suppose if you stumbled across  a letter written in cursive, it might be unfortunate that you can't read it, but it would be the same as if that letter was written in Sanskrit.  That doesn't imply I should go out and learn Sanskrit, eh?

You're comparing a variation on the English alphabet to learning a new alphabet and language. And you seem to think it's OK for your kids to get an education that wouldn't even enable them to read a letter from Grandma to Grandpa. (I know you'll respond with something about your mom using a type-writer for her correspondence, and your dad using only block printing. Or that they wrote their letters in German. Whatever. It's a hypothetical.)


Kids get out of school not able to balance a checkbook, maintain an automobile, or understand interest rates and loans.

I'd rather my kids focus on the 3 Rs, or learn how to manage a budget, balance a checkbook, or even check the oil on their car before they worry about cursive writing.


If you want to suggest relevant skills that are not anachronistic, balancing a checkbook may not be the best example to use.  =)

It looks like you want primary and secondary education to be more vocational, especially with the talk of automotive maintenance. Do you also want to replace history, music, art, and literature classes with classes on how to maintain one's lawn, or patch a roof? That's not snark. I'm curious.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: mtnbkr on March 16, 2017, 04:30:50 PM

I'll have to take that with a grain of salt. Would you even notice which script it was in? I couldn't tell you how often I've seen it. I wouldn't remember. I don't remember precisely because I can read one as well as the other. Because they cruelly beat it into me at school.  =)
Yes.  I learned it in elementary school and can still read it.  People just don't write much by hand where I work and when they do, it's stuff scribbled on a whiteboard or notes to themselves. 

I find it hard to believe it's that vanishingly rare in the workplace, considering how many people over the age of 30 are in the workforce, and the vast majority of them were taught cursive in school. You would expect it to crop up now and then. I wouldn't want to be walking around without knowing how to read it.
Most of the people in my office are older (40+).  We did hire a couple millennials last year though.  My previous job had similar demographics.

You're comparing a variation on the English alphabet to learning a new alphabet and language. And you seem to think it's OK for your kids to get an education that wouldn't even enable them to read a letter from Grandma to Grandpa. (I know you'll respond with something about your mom using a type-writer for her correspondence, and your dad using only block printing. Or that they wrote their letters in German. Whatever. It's a hypothetical.)
It's not even a variation on the alphabet since the letters are still the same, just scratched on paper differently.  It would be sad if my kids couldn't read their grandparents' letters, but it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.  No, mom didn't use a typewriter and my dad's cursive is quite neat (or was when he was younger).

If you want to suggest relevant skills that are not anachronistic, balancing a checkbook may not be the best example to use.  =)
Whatever the mechanism, people need to learn how to manage their money and balance their accounts.  Mom used to work in a bank and I heard horror stories about young people who had no clue about finance and balancing their accounts. 

It looks like you want primary and secondary education to be more vocational, especially with the talk of automotive maintenance. Do you also want to replace history, music, art, and literature classes with classes on how to maintain one's lawn, or patch a roof? That's not snark. I'm curious.
Not necessarily more vocational, but let's not release students upon the world without basic life skills.  History, art, music, literature are all valuable and work to create a more well-rounded person.  I don't believe a particular style of handwriting meets the same standard.

FWIW, I haven't discounted handwriting in general, just the specific suggestion that cursive is somehow relevant and worthy of students' limited educational cycles where people are not writing most things by hand like they did in decades past.  I'd rather them take another art or music class or fit in an elective.

Chris


 


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: freakazoid on March 16, 2017, 04:54:07 PM
There are times when I'll still sit down with a pen and legal pad and write a draft of something...

A story outline, a note to someone, whatever.

When I'm really paying attention to the ideas instead of the the writing, I end up with a very weird mix of cursive AND printed -- often with partial words in both... sometimes a single printed letter in the middle of a written word...



I do that exact thing too when trying to take quick notes.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 16, 2017, 04:55:11 PM
I've been in the workplace longer than Mtnbkr.

More importantly, I've been in the workplace where words are king -- newspapers, American Rifleman magazine, advertising, and for the last nearly 20 years, software, system, and process documentation.

I'm going to agree with him. I literally cannot remember the last time I saw cursive in the workplace, especially not where I've been for the last 18.5 years.

Many people take notes for themselves in notebooks during meetings, and many of those notes are, I would suspect, in cursive. I'd bet an equal number are printed.

But no one, and I mean no one, writes at a professional level in cursive where I work. We're a technical company. People are used to technology, and many of them are scientists, engineers and the like, and for them printing was probably more common than writing for sheer clarity on things like lab reports.

The last time I remember seeing cursive used regularly was when I was with Navy Federal Credit Union in the mid 1990s. We routed mockups in folders with routing lists, and several people almost always wrote notes in the circulation folder in cursive. They had absolutely gorgeous Palmer styles that was perfectly legible. They were also all older, having gone to school in probably the late 1940s/early 1950s. Everyone else printed.

Email and text have virtually replaced handwritten notes. Voice mails. A quick jot on a post it is probably the most people handwrite in a week.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: freakazoid on March 16, 2017, 05:11:32 PM
By all means, keep practicing and teach your kids in your own time, but let's replace it with more meaningful instruction in the schools.  Again, I point out a lack of useful instruction in basic life skills.  Kids get out of school not able to balance a checkbook, maintain an automobile, or understand interest rates and loans.

Chris

You could, and people do, say that about a lot of things that are taught. I believe someone already mentioned that using grammar as an example. Do you really NEED to know the difference between to and too; you're and your; they're, there, and their; etc., when you can figure out what is meant by context?
You don't have to remove teaching cursive in order to teach those other things. Our school system is for the most part crap. Fix the way the schools teach and you will be able to start giving out an actual education on those basic life skills and other important things like reading an analog clock and cursive. Of course family life also has a big influence on those but I believe that fixing the school system will eventually have a trickle effect on family life, probably one of the reasons why the left is trying to destroy it.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: fistful on March 16, 2017, 06:31:22 PM
It's not even a variation on the alphabet since the letters are still the same, just scratched on paper differently.  It would be sad if my kids couldn't read their grandparents' letters, but it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. No, mom didn't use a typewriter and my dad's cursive is quite neat (or was when he was younger).  


No one said it would be the worst thing in the world, but how literate would your children be if they couldn't read what their own grandfather (presumably writing in English) had written? Maybe it wouldn't keep them from succeeding in life, but an education is not just job training, or home economics or automotive maintenance.


Quote
History, art, music, literature are all valuable and work to create a more well-rounded person.  I don't believe a particular style of handwriting meets the same standard.

I disagree, partly because of the benefits of writing in cursive (see the articles that makattak and I have linked to on this), and partly because learning cursive is not just about helping the student learn to write. It is also about teaching them to read the written language of their culture. To deny that cursive is a significant part of that language seems very odd. Even if few are using it today (I've pointed out why that seems doubtful), the documents written in cursive over the past two hundred years shouldn't look like barely-intelligible scribbles to an educated person. (Though I recognize that some of them are barely legible, even if you do know cursive.)
 

The last time I remember seeing cursive used regularly was when I was with Navy Federal Credit Union in the mid 1990s. We routed mockups in folders with routing lists, and several people almost always wrote notes in the circulation folder in cursive.

And if we stopped teaching cursive to grade-school kids today, they'd scratch their heads at records like these - and written in their own language, just 20 years ago!


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: mtnbkr on March 17, 2017, 03:08:19 AM
No one said it would be the worst thing in the world, but how literate would your children be if they couldn't read what their own grandfather (presumably writing in English) had written? Maybe it wouldn't keep them from succeeding in life, but an education is not just job training, or home economics or automotive maintenance.
They would still be literate.  They read English just fine.  We're not talking about language, but script.  What if those letters were written in shorthand (real shorthand as it used to be taught...in schools)?  Also, one can find cursive charts and transcribe the letters.  The letters aren't lost.  If the idea of practical life skills for a modern life offends you, then fill the newly freed time with more math, literature, history, whatever.  Let's just use it for something more enriching than handwriting.  Do you know what they gloss over these days? Spelling.  That, even in today's world of spellcheck everywhere, really grinds my gears.  Why don't we use that time for additional spelling instruction...

I disagree, partly because of the benefits of writing in cursive (see the articles that makattak and I have linked to on this), and partly because learning cursive is not just about helping the student learn to write. It is also about teaching them to read the written language of their culture. To deny that cursive is a significant part of that language seems very odd. Even if few are using it today (I've pointed out why that seems doubtful), the documents written in cursive over the past two hundred years shouldn't look like barely-intelligible scribbles to an educated person. (Though I recognize that some of them are barely legible, even if you do know cursive.)
I read the article and the large point was not the benefits of cursive, but of handwriting in general.  Without using cursive, I can read the language of our culture just fine.  We're reading this, right? 

And if we stopped teaching cursive to grade-school kids today, they'd scratch their heads at records like these - and written in their own language, just 20 years ago!
You're assuming the records in question were written in a standard script, correctly, and still legible.  One of problems with cursive IMO is that people tend to develop their own style and not all letters are "to spec".  Even to someone who can read/write cursive, there's no guarantee someone's writing is legible.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be learned, but I'd leave it up to the student (student being loosely defined as someone who learns, not necessarily a child in school).  Plenty of folks self-teach or seek out learning on their own.  Let's use the educational cycles for other subjects that have greater relevance.

Chris


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 17, 2017, 03:24:05 AM
"And if we stopped teaching cursive to grade-school kids today, they'd scratch their heads at records like these - and written in their own language, just 20 years ago!"

Hardly records of importance. In fact, those "records" were trashed once the comments contained therein were addressed. There wasn't some huge room at Navy Federal were those notes were kept for posterity because someone thought that "I don't like the use of Pantone 130 U here..." was a vital business record requiring preservation.

Both Chris and I have provided concrete observations about the lack of use of cursive writing in today's workplace.

You've been able to provide no tangible examples where cursive writing is an ongoing and important part of the workforce, any job sector, any company, or any job other than the highly specialized role of a caligrapher creating specialized documents such as awards and wedding invitations. And even there the capabilities of today's computer programs are making calligraphy obsolete.

I think there are other, valid, and very important reasons for schools to teach cursive writing -- discipline, eye-hand coordination, precision, concentration -- but its manifest necessity and vitality in the smooth functioning of today's business world is NOT one of them, no matter what you theorize, and no matter how little to no evidence you provide to the contrary.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 17, 2017, 03:29:45 AM

No one said it would be the worst thing in the world, but how literate would your children be if they couldn't read what their own grandfather (presumably writing in English) had written? Maybe it wouldn't keep them from succeeding in life, but an education is not just job training, or home economics or automotive maintenance.


In fairness, when my mother died my brother and I found in her closet a box of letters written by our great-grandfather. They were, of course, in cursive, but the cursive of more than 100 years in the then-past. We never found anyone who could decipher more than an occasional word in any of the letters.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 17, 2017, 03:54:33 AM
As part of my history degree at Dickinson, our one class was required to transcribe a number of letters held in the special collections room at the college library.

One of my letters was from John Dickinson, one of the lesser and a bit more reluctant Founding Fathers (and for whom the school is named), and another was by Andrew Curtain, governor of Pennsylvania during the Civil War.

Both letters were of a more personal nature, but talked about broader subjects -- in Dickinson's case it was a discussion of Britain's Declaratory Act. That turned out to be a damned important letter because it provided a LOT of insight into themes that Dickinson would later expand on in his Letters from a Pennsylvania Farmer. But, not really germane to this discussion...

Both of those letters were gold-plated sons of bitches to read/decipher.

Because, as Chris noted, an individual's cursive writing, over time, moves farther and farther from the formalized, written script we're taught as children to a far more personal script that normally involves any number of shortcuts, sometimes to the point of becoming something damned close to a personal shorthand.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: cordex on March 17, 2017, 06:21:32 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/V8qyAVz.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/QjPETKr.jpg)

Seems like there might be some benefit in being able to at minimum read script.  I rarely write in it intentionally (as opposed to accidentally falling into it when writing quickly), but I'm glad I can read it.

As to "they shouldn't teach cursive, they should teach <something important>!"  I'm no stalwart defender of cursive instruction as a necessary component of education, but seriously?  Do you believe that teaching cursive takes really takes so much instruction time that it displaces other important educational opportunities?  Do you have faith that our public education system will in fact replace cursive instruction time with useful life skills?


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: mtnbkr on March 17, 2017, 06:35:56 AM
http://i.imgur.com/V8qyAVz.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QjPETKr.jpg
I have copies of each as books, no need for script. :)

Seems like there might be some benefit in being able to at minimum read script.  I rarely write in it intentionally (as opposed to accidentally falling into it when writing quickly), but I'm glad I can read it.
Agree.

As to "they shouldn't teach cursive, they should teach <something important>!"  I'm no stalwart defender of cursive instruction as a necessary component of education, but seriously?  Do you believe that teaching cursive takes really takes so much instruction time that it displaces other important educational opportunities?  Do you have faith that our public education system will in fact replace cursive instruction time with useful life skills?
They don't spend a whole lot of time these days, but when I was in school, it was pretty extensive instruction.  No, I don't have faith in the public schools to teach anything else to a high standard, but one can hope.

Chris


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: cordex on March 17, 2017, 06:44:02 AM
They don't spend a whole lot of time these days, but when I was in school, it was pretty extensive instruction.  No, I don't have faith in the public schools to teach anything else to a high standard, but one can hope.
I'm only a little younger than you and we only had significant cursive instruction in early elementary.  In later elementary and middle school we were graded on handwriting but it is not as though cursive took any significant instruction time.  Certainly not in later years where life skills might be more readily taught.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 17, 2017, 06:59:55 AM
The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are interesting, but really not all that applicable to this conversation as those examples aren't written in a true cursive, but in an engrossment script that is more akin to calligraphy, and which was done by specially trained engrossers.

Engrossers were either employed by, or were often themselves, printers.

The Continental Congress had a scribe, Charles Thompson, whose assistant, Timothy Matlack, was an engrosser. It's believe that it was Matlack who engrossed the Declaration for signature.

It's believed that Jacob Shallus engrossed the Constitution. He wasn't employed by Congress, but was hired independently.

If you look at both the Constitution and Declaration together, you see that the letter forms are similar, not exactly the same, but similar, in much the same way that families of fonts are similar. That's because engrossing focused on very specific, structured, word forms and didn't allow for the development of the personalized "shorthand" writing of the kind that Chris talks about.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: cordex on March 17, 2017, 07:27:46 AM
The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are interesting, but really not all that applicable to this conversation as those examples aren't written in a true cursive, but in an engrossment script that is more akin to calligraphy, and which was done by specially trained engrossers.
;/  We can read them because we learned how to read cursive script.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 17, 2017, 07:37:56 AM
I suspect that anyone could read them, whether they learned cursive script or not, and that's credit to the precision of the word forms.

That said, just how many hundreds of cursive written documents do you expect a child or young adult to encounter in every day life these days?

How many do YOU encounter in everyday life? In a week, a month, a year?

I'm guessing that for virtually everyone here the numbers are going to be along the lines of 0, 0, 1.

Obviously, then, because today's children may, at some undefined and increasingly unlikely point in their lives may encounter a document written in script, we need to include cursive reading skills as one of the foundation core units of modern education.

It's a skill whose importance is right up there with the ability to estimate bushel yield per acre, how to shoe a horse, and how to fire a steam locomotive.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: MechAg94 on March 17, 2017, 08:04:55 AM
Our kids are in grade school for 12 years.  More than that if you count pre-school and college for some.  Is there really so much we have to teach our kids that we can't do it in 12 years?  IMO, there is a lot of BS we could drop such as social studies.  I would simply say that basic English and grammar are more important than what type of handwriting you use, but that should already be taught.  

I went to 12 years of grade school and was able to learn all that.  Some kids did poorly, some did better.  Most all of the kids who were college bound did decent at basic English.  Kids who make it through college without that either cheated or were given a pass at some point. 


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: MechAg94 on March 17, 2017, 08:18:58 AM
I had a English classes (including college English) where we had to write an essay in the class on paper and turn it in before we left.  I guess they do that on the computer now if they do it at all.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 17, 2017, 09:08:07 AM
I had a English classes (including college English) where we had to write an essay in the class on paper and turn it in before we left.  I guess they do that on the computer now if they do it at all.

I suspect that some of the students in your class printed their essays.

When I was in college we still had in class exams that required writing in blue books, while other exams were taken home essay/writing assignments that were normally done on typewriter or the PDP or VAX mainframe or, later in my college career, on the DEC Rainbow desktops that the college bought. The rainbows were crap, but they had FANTASTIC keyboards. I could type better than 120 words a minute on those things.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Marnoot on March 17, 2017, 09:46:09 AM
Similar to what Hawkmoon said, sometimes I spend some time volunteering to index names out of old 1800's census records, ship manifests, etc. and despite me being able read and write cursive, much of the time I can't make heads or tails of the script. Even much more recent records can be nigh-or-completely-illegible due to the style of script used. So learning cursive doesn't guarantee being able to read an old letter/whatever.

The only times I use cursive are the exceedingly-rare times I'm jotting down notes with pen and paper, rather than my work laptop. If I'm writing something down for someone else's consumption I use block letters because my particular style of impatient-cursive is illegible to anyone but myself. When the move to eliminate cursive in schools started a few years ago, I was against it. But the more I've thought on it the more I agree it's an outdated skill that while yes, may (very) occasionally still be useful, is less important than some other skills like those mtnbkr has listed.

Nothing stopping parents from teaching it to their kids if they wish, I may do so with my own kids specifically to enable them a bit more literacy in reading old records in genealogical endeavors, but how common is that need? I think time in school could be better spent learning things like basic financial literacy, etc., than in learning cursive.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: RevDisk on March 17, 2017, 11:32:38 AM

If cursive lapses into history, I'll count that as a win on many fronts. The biggest being while print can be not legible, cursive is RARELY legible to anyone other than the writer. Even then, it can be iffy. 


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: fistful on March 17, 2017, 01:13:25 PM
Hardly records of importance. In fact, those "records" were trashed once the comments contained therein were addressed. There wasn't some huge room at Navy Federal were those notes were kept for posterity

At last the two places I've worked, we've had boxes upon boxes of dead-tree files going back to the 90s. I presume thousands and thousands of other businesses have the same. Obviously, most of that will be machine-printed, and only a fraction will have cursive writing.

Quote
Both Chris and I have provided concrete observations about the lack of use of cursive writing in today's workplace.


That the two of you don't recall seeing it is hardly concrete. It's not a detail anyone would expect you to remember, if you had seen it.

Quote
You've been able to provide no tangible examples where cursive writing is an ongoing and important part of the workforce, any job sector, any company, or any job other than the highly specialized role of a caligrapher....but its manifest necessity and vitality in the smooth functioning of today's business world is NOT one of them, no matter what you theorize, and no matter how little to no evidence you provide to the contrary.

I never said anything about it being manifestly vital, and I actually said that education is not just about the work place. We learn to read and write so we can communicate with family and friends as well, and I've referred to cursive's role in that.


They would still be literate.  They read English just fine.  We're not talking about language, but script.  What if those letters were written in shorthand (real shorthand as it used to be taught...in schools)?

I didn't say they wouldn't be literate, but there are degrees of literacy.

I don't know much about short-hand, but how valid a comparison do you really think it is? Compared to cursive, how generally was it taught, and for how long a period of time? How many important documents were (are) written or preserved in short-hand, compared to cursive? Short-hand serves basically one purpose (transcribing or summarizing speech), while cursive is for general purpose writing, so it's more useful, and might show up just about anywhere.

Quote
Also, one can find cursive charts and transcribe the letters.  The letters aren't lost.

I don't think anyone's saying they're lost. But let's say there's a situation in which an older person, during a business meeting, writes a quick note, and hands it to a younger colleague, who wasn't taught cursive. Maybe he's telling him to go out and get the such-and-such file, or to employ negotiating tactic #503, or whatever, so he just dashes off a note. And he just happens to use cursive, because that's how he writes. You can say, "In my decades of business experience, I've neither seen nor heard of any such thing." Or you can say that's what texting is for, or that the old dude should have known to just print. Meanwhile, Joe the Recent College Grad is googling a cursive chart. It's not a far-fetched scenario, but I think it's an absurd one, that should be avoided by fully teaching the poor kid how to read and write.


Quote
Without using cursive, I can read the language of our culture just fine.  We're reading this, right?

 ??? This is in print.

 
Quote
You're assuming the records in question were written in a standard script, correctly, and still legible.

No, I'm not. Some cursive will be easier to read than others. Some print will be easier to understand than others. By way of "tangible examples," I submit this photo of a pick ticket I "tanged" this afternoon.

(http://i.imgur.com/oQorm18.jpg)

Someone tried to scribble in a job name or PO number, which the millennial in accounts receivable will need to enter into the computer. That's not cursive, and I'm not sure whether it's letters, numbers, or both. The one thing I'm sure of is that I've never seen a sample of cursive more difficult to decipher than that mess.

And since Mike is so rigorous about concrete examples, I wrote some cursive on another pick ticket today. WHERE IS YOUR BLOCK PRINT GOD NOW?!  :P


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: RoadKingLarry on March 17, 2017, 01:28:53 PM
In this remarkable bastion of libertarian-ism I am shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, to see so many rugged individualists lamenting the government schools not teaching something they see as important.
If you feel strongly that your progeny need to learn something that the government schools do not teach I would suggest that you pull up your big boy or girl pants and undertake to instruct your get yourselves.
=D
 


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: fistful on March 17, 2017, 01:58:41 PM
In this remarkable bastion of libertarian-ism I am shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, to see so many rugged individualists lamenting the government schools not teaching something they see as important.
If you feel strongly that your progeny need to learn something that the government schools do not teach I would suggest that you pull up your big boy or girl pants and undertake to instruct your get yourselves.
=D
 


Ohhhhhhkay, if you wanna go down that road, I'm all for the school districts deciding their own curriculum, with minimal guidance from the state, and none from the Feds. And, no, I'm not saying the states should dictate cursive instruction.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: 230RN on March 17, 2017, 03:43:28 PM
Question about the atomic clock... specifically the time signal.

How do they adjust for the time lag between a clock 10 miles away receiving the signal vs a clock in, say, Eastport, Maine, about 2,300 air miles away?

Even though the signal travels at 186,000 miles per second, there's still a measurable lag.

And, if it's used to establish time for the GPS satellite network, that's even more of a signal lag

WRT the Eastport Maine, question, basically, the WWV time signals define the time for any place it is intended for.  Precise corrections are attainable by the user, if that much precision is involved.  It takes about 1/8 of a second for a radio signal to circle the globe, but the bouncing of the signal back and forth from the ionosphere to earth must be taken into account.

I know that when I used to set the time on my legacy computers, the government system would test the time for it to send the "ticks" and get an echo, sort of like pinging a website.  It would then apply the appropriate correction.  (That's the way I remember it, anyhow, and IIRC, essentially the same method is used to correct for the delay between the clock itself and the transmitters in Fort Collins.)

Keep in mind, this is sort of like the question of "how many decimal places of pi do you need to use?"  If you "need" pi to 84 decimal places, that information is either available or deriveable.  For time, high precision is probably only necessary to confirm relativity theory and the like, for example.

WRT to the GPS satellites, I do not know for sure, except that the very lag you speak of results in phasing differences between satellite signals and these phase delays are used to derive your position.  So presumably, the times on each satellite are preset to be identical through all of them or reset from the ground after a stable orbit is achieved.

I do know for sure that they don't use pendulum clocks to keep accurate time in the GPS satellites. :D

Terry  (Comments and corrections are invited)


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: fistful on March 17, 2017, 05:07:06 PM
I do know for sure that they don't use pendulum clocks to keep accurate time in the GPS satellites. :D


Only in those steam-punk satellites.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: MechAg94 on March 17, 2017, 05:07:21 PM
If cursive lapses into history, I'll count that as a win on many fronts. The biggest being while print can be not legible, cursive is RARELY legible to anyone other than the writer. Even then, it can be iffy. 

I think if it lapses, general English skills will also lapse and nothing will be legible.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: 230RN on March 17, 2017, 05:26:25 PM
I've got several correspondents who use cursive.

I'm still wondering what "pfbibxly" meant in in one recent letter.  I'm sure that's an "i" because of the dot.  At any rate, her pfbibxly is fine, according to her Doctor.

Terry, 230RN


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: fistful on March 17, 2017, 05:45:00 PM
I have this crazy idea that, if cursive were so thoroughly illegible to anyone other than the author, people would not have been using it to communicate with each other for hundreds of years. Unless we're to believe that all those letters back and forth were just gazed at uncomprehendingly.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: 230RN on March 17, 2017, 06:25:59 PM
^ "Unless we're to believe that all those letters back and forth were just gazed at uncomprehendingly. '

Ayup.  I gazed at "pfbibxly" pfbibxly.

Adjectivial form: pfbibxic.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: freakazoid on March 17, 2017, 07:19:38 PM
I think the main purpose of cursive I'd to be able to write notes for yourself quickly, sounds like a pretty useful skill to me.
Unless in remembering incorrectly, I'm pretty sure that I learned cursive very early on in elementary. Exactly what "important" classes are being skipped over because they are teaching cursive at that time?


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 17, 2017, 08:10:00 PM
Exactly what "important" classes are being skipped over because they are teaching cursive at that time?

How to recognize white privilege.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: mtnbkr on March 18, 2017, 04:11:32 AM
At last the two places I've worked, we've had boxes upon boxes of dead-tree files going back to the 90s. I presume thousands and thousands of other businesses have the same. Obviously, most of that will be machine-printed, and only a fraction will have cursive writing.
 
That the two of you don't recall seeing it is hardly concrete. It's not a detail anyone would expect you to remember, if you had seen it.

Actually, I know because most large corporations have document retention and security policies that would preclude 20yo documents from being kept.  If said documents were so critical they needed to be retained, they would have been converted to electronics records, for among other reasons, to ensure they remain usable over time.  Physical storage is expensive and difficult to manage.  Physical documents are prone to damage, loss, fading, etc as well.  Handwritten documents of importance just aren't a thing anymore.

Exactly what "important" classes are being skipped over because they are teaching cursive at that time?

I'm looking at it more broadly.  If you consider a student has N educational hours in their public school "Career", then by removing cursive, you free up minutes for other instruction.  Obviously you don't need to teach 3rd graders how to manage finances, but maybe there are other subjects or topics that could be taught to them or teach things that would have otherwise been delayed till a later grade.  When those items are moved back, you move yet other delayed subjects into the newly freed slot, creating a knock-on effect giving you more time when the students are older.

Chris


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Neemi on March 18, 2017, 08:24:41 AM
I'm looking at it more broadly.  If you consider a student has N educational hours in their public school "Career", then by removing cursive, you free up minutes for other instruction.  Obviously you don't need to teach 3rd graders how to manage finances, but maybe there are other subjects or topics that could be taught to them or teach things that would have otherwise been delayed till a later grade.  When those items are moved back, you move yet other delayed subjects into the newly freed slot, creating a knock-on effect giving you more time when the students are older.

I remember learning cursive in 2nd grade. We spent a few weeks on it, learned how to write it, and then never went back. 4th grade we revisited it so we could learn to write checks. We had a whole little classroom economy - and that's where I learned how to balance a checkbook.

On the other hand, I remember in 10th grade economics we were each assigned a career - then told to buy houses, cars, and other things based on what we could afford. Every other student based their purchases off of monthly payments, because that's what was taught. My teacher was confused that I, assigned a well-paying career, chose to buy an inexpensive, used car and live in an apartment to save up for a down payment for a house. If we're going to teach finances, we've gotta start higher up. Or hire my 4th grade teacher.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: KD5NRH on March 18, 2017, 10:06:31 AM
I think the main purpose of cursive I'd to be able to write notes for yourself quickly, sounds like a pretty useful skill to me.

Erm...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregg_shorthand


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 18, 2017, 11:19:36 AM
All shorthand systems are approximations. Ever read the first draft of a trial or deposition transcript, generated by a certified court stenographer?


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: fistful on March 18, 2017, 03:35:59 PM
Actually, I know because most large corporations have document retention and security policies that would preclude 20yo documents from being kept.  If said documents were so critical they needed to be retained, they would have been converted to electronics records, for among other reasons, to ensure they remain usable over time. 


You know what? That businesses don't have boxes of old paper files in storage? The ones I've worked for do, so I'm not sure what you're saying here.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 18, 2017, 06:10:56 PM
Actually, I know because most large corporations have document retention and security policies that would preclude 20yo documents from being kept.  If said documents were so critical they needed to be retained, they would have been converted to electronics records, for among other reasons, to ensure they remain usable over time.  Physical storage is expensive and difficult to manage.  Physical documents are prone to damage, loss, fading, etc as well.  Handwritten documents of importance just aren't a thing anymore.

But the electronic copy may be (and probably is) nothing more than a scan of the paper document. Just a slightly more modern variant of a microfiche. Scanning a document written in cursive obviously doesn't make it unnecessary to read cursive if someone needs that document down the road.



Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: fistful on March 18, 2017, 06:14:04 PM
But the electronic copy may be (and probably is) nothing more than a scan of the paper document. Just a slightly more modern variant of a microfiche. Scanning a document written in cursive obviously doesn't make it unnecessary to read cursive if someone needs that document down the road.


The handwritten comments may have been typed into the new, electronic record. Which still means that any cursive has to be read and understood by someone.

Perhaps there's a third way.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: MechAg94 on March 18, 2017, 07:22:45 PM
Actually, I know because most large corporations have document retention and security policies that would preclude 20yo documents from being kept.  If said documents were so critical they needed to be retained, they would have been converted to electronics records, for among other reasons, to ensure they remain usable over time.  Physical storage is expensive and difficult to manage.  Physical documents are prone to damage, loss, fading, etc as well.  Handwritten documents of importance just aren't a thing anymore.

I'm looking at it more broadly.  If you consider a student has N educational hours in their public school "Career", then by removing cursive, you free up minutes for other instruction.  Obviously you don't need to teach 3rd graders how to manage finances, but maybe there are other subjects or topics that could be taught to them or teach things that would have otherwise been delayed till a later grade.  When those items are moved back, you move yet other delayed subjects into the newly freed slot, creating a knock-on effect giving you more time when the students are older.

Chris
As others said, cursive is taught fairly early in elementary school.  At that time, there are few other things you would be teaching youngsters that aren't just basics.  Most kids are still learning basic words, spelling, and sentence structure at that time. 

IMO, the failing is not teaching cursive.  It is that they fail to teach basic writing and reading comprehension and force kids to learn it or fail and retake the grade.  If someone mangles their letters a little when writing, but they write good sentences with correct spelling and grammar, you can still read it. 

A couple other thoughts:
1.  How much print style writing was done before the printing press was invented?  I figure this is hard to know since literacy was also probably less common.
2.  Was cursive an easier way to write with the ink quills available in past centuries? 


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: freakazoid on March 18, 2017, 08:02:08 PM
Forgot that when you sign your name, you use cursive. Your signature is kind of important.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 18, 2017, 08:04:37 PM

The handwritten comments may have been typed into the new, electronic record. Which still means that any cursive has to be read and understood by someone.

Perhaps there's a third way.

There is: OCR -- Optical Character recognition. It's maybe 85% effective at getting printed text more or less correct. Good luck using OCR on cursive handwriting.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: mtnbkr on March 19, 2017, 04:14:41 AM
But the electronic copy may be (and probably is) nothing more than a scan of the paper document. Just a slightly more modern variant of a microfiche. Scanning a document written in cursive obviously doesn't make it unnecessary to read cursive if someone needs that document down the road.
I suspect that transitory period passed a decade or more ago.


The handwritten comments may have been typed into the new, electronic record. Which still means that any cursive has to be read and understood by someone.

Perhaps there's a third way.
Again, the period where cursive was transcribed to electronic means is long past.  Nothing official in the last 3 companies I worked for was captured via handwritten means.  Certainly nothing 20 years old has been kept without a very specific reason.  It certainly wouldn't have been kept in its original format.  This is due to the various internal and regulatory frameworks in which we operate.  Between documents needing to be on the correct template and stuff not being kept for more than N years without a waiver, there simply aren't "old" docs sitting around in boxes, waiting to be read.  This may be a very different business environment than you're accustomed to.

2.  Was cursive an easier way to write with the ink quills available in past centuries? 
I strongly suspect this is the root of cursive.  Not so much that it was easier, but it presented less opportunity for "drips"?

Forgot that when you sign your name, you use cursive. Your signature is kind of important.

That is probably the first legitimate and contemporary use of cursive mentioned in this thread.  However, law doesn't stipulate how a signature is scratched out, so nothing stops a person from printing their name if that's their signature.  I've used all sorts of non-standard marks on supermarket credit card machines. :)  Also, does other nationalities or languages have "cursive" writings?  Working where I do and working with many nationalities, I haven't noticed (then again, nearly all our written comms are via computer).  I know Kanji has a cursive variant, but based on what I've read, it is more calligraphy-oriented and not used in daily life.  I note this from another forum:
Quote
Full cursive (草書) is really hard to read and I don't think that people use it in daily life (I could be wrong though).

Chris


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: French G. on March 19, 2017, 04:29:11 AM
My mom spent a lot of time as a secretary back when that was an acceptable name. She knew shorthand. Perfectly happy to leave Christmas lists out in plain sight. Cursive is cruelty.

I learned cursive but never held a pen correctly and was schooled by a left hand exorcist of an old teacher. My fingers always hurt so by high school I had largely converted back to print. The military and eight million pointless logbook entries finished cursive off for me.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Firethorn on March 19, 2017, 04:37:43 AM
That is probably the first legitimate and contemporary use of cursive mentioned in this thread.

Real signatures are becoming a lot less common, and I know a lot of people who have a random squiggle for a signature, not anything actually readable.

I mean, back in the day we signed checks with our signature, how often is that today?  My check register has slipped back behind the year.  Nearly everything I pay for is electronic.

Mostly it's just electronic signature for credit card purchases these days, and even that's being seen less.

Being back in college, I mostly use cursive to torture teachers who assign in-class writing assignments.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: RoadKingLarry on March 19, 2017, 05:15:16 AM
Yesterday I went through a checkout line at a grocery store. When the time came to "sign" the credit card doohickey it came out as a scribble. Older lady (older than me, had the air of a retired school teacher) commented somewhat condemningly, that you couldn't read my signature. I looked her dead in the eye and told her I had legally changed my name to "Illegible Scrawl". Older gentleman behind her snorted, she just went blank, kind of like she had locked up.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 19, 2017, 05:22:47 AM
"That the two of you don't recall seeing it is hardly concrete. It's not a detail anyone would expect you to remember, if you had seen it."

You forget what I do for a living. I make my life with words, and have done so at the time in our history when words handwritten on paper have been ever more quickly replaced by the tapping of keys on a keyboard. It's part and parcel to who I am, and what I do, so yes, I remember.




You don't understand what a "concrete observation" is, do you, Fistful?

A concrete observation is NOT proof of a standard practice industry wide (which is what you seem to think I have said), it is a verifiable observation based on personal experience.

As such, I gave you two concrete examples in the business world where cursive is an anachronism.


The difference between what you're claiming and what I'm claiming is, once again, I have examples to back up my position that continue into today.

You, on the other hand, don't.

You've not provided a single example of a business where cursive is still routinely used for everyday business practices, where employees need to both know, and practice, it.

Your "proof" can best be categorized as wild ass guesses, suppositions, personal theories.

So, once again, give us ONE example of a business where cursive writing is critical to that businesses' every day operations.

And, saying "I saw the counter guy jot down a bunch of notes and he wrote them out!" That's not a business practice. That's one guy taking notes.



"We learn to read and write so we can communicate with family and friends as well, and I've referred to cursive's role in that."

So.... someone who doesn't learn cursive writing, but can print, can no longer communicate with family and friends? Because knowing how to print somehow equals illiteracy?

You've really got to explain how that works.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 19, 2017, 05:28:20 AM

Ohhhhhhkay, if you wanna go down that road, I'm all for the school districts deciding their own curriculum, with minimal guidance from the state, and none from the Feds. And, no, I'm not saying the states should dictate cursive instruction.

But, if learning cursive is such a critical life skill that civilization will collapse without it, why wouldn't you want the Federal government to force schools to teach cursive?

After all, it's apparently the single most vital skill required for communicating with family and friends.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 19, 2017, 05:35:49 AM
I think the main purpose of cursive I'd to be able to write notes for yourself quickly, sounds like a pretty useful skill to me.
Unless in remembering incorrectly, I'm pretty sure that I learned cursive very early on in elementary. Exactly what "important" classes are being skipped over because they are teaching cursive at that time?

Exactly. Cursive developed because it's faster to write by hand and to print for most people.

As for exactly what important classes are being skipped over, perhaps none.

But what classes are truly being supported by the teaching of cursive anymore?

I submit that the answer is none.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 19, 2017, 05:37:01 AM
" My check register has slipped back behind the year.  Nearly everything I pay for is electronic."

I've not actually hand written a check in.... 3 years?

No, not the case. I forgot I wrote a check from my HEL to pay for the first installment of the new siding on the house.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Ben on March 19, 2017, 05:49:44 AM

I strongly suspect this is the root of cursive.  Not so much that it was easier, but it presented less opportunity for "drips"?

Chris

That's a really good point, which I say as a left-handed person. I can't say for sure, but I think smearing may have been one of the reasons I migrated to printing, where it's easier to hold my hand "over" the text as I write. Especially because my hand follows the ink, unlike a righty, whose hand leads the ink. In fact printing may be just enough slower than cursive to allow the ink to dry a bit more before my paw reaches it. With certain pens, I still smear with printing.

I now kind of wonder if I would have (given my age) switched to printing if I was right-handed. I was also someone who learned cursive in the second (I think) grade, and the teacher's critical harassment of my writing is something I remember to this day - mainly the position and angles of the various letters. Just watch most any lefty's hand as they write in cursive. It looks like we're trying to snap our own wrist.


On the e-pad signatures - mine looks way different than my check signatures. It's nearly impossible for me to write the same with the e-pen on a monitor as it is to write pen to paper. Plus I have a long last name and I always see cashiers looking impatient as I try to write my name the same as I do for checks. I've even had a couple say "you can just put whatever you want there".  :laugh:  I now just do a little hieroglyphic that takes a couple of seconds and looks like it came from a different person.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 19, 2017, 06:04:01 AM
I'm also left handed.

And, for most of my college career, I took notes with fountain pens because I could never find a ballpoint pen that wrote nearly as well as any of my fountain pens.

I always used the finest nibs I could find, these days they would probably be called accounting nibs -- fines or superfines.



Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: cordex on March 19, 2017, 06:21:06 AM
So, once again, give us ONE example of a business where cursive writing is critical to that businesses' every day operations.
Law.  At least all the lawyers I work with use it very heavily as a way to quickly annotate documents (electronic and hard copy).


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: 230RN on March 19, 2017, 06:49:46 AM
Selected comments...

"Exactly. Cursive developed because it's faster to write by hand and [sic: than?] to print for most people."

Which is exactly why it morphs into unintelligibility?

"That's a really good point, which I say as a left-handed person. I can't say for sure, but I think smearing may have been one of the reasons I migrated to printing, where it's easier to hold my hand "over" the text as I write. Especially because my hand follows the ink, unlike a righty, whose hand leads the ink. In fact printing may be just enough slower than cursive to allow the ink to dry a bit more before my paw reaches it. With certain pens, I still smear with printing."

Maybe you should try the Da Vinci method.

"Illegible Scrawl"

Dang it, I wish you guys would quit stealing my jokes.  That's twice in this thread.

Terry


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: fistful on March 19, 2017, 10:43:43 AM
Mike, who is this "Fistful" guy you're talking to? He apparently put forth a very caricatured and extreme version of what I said. Boy, you sure told that guy. Get 'em, Mike!


Again, the period where cursive was transcribed to electronic means is long past.  Nothing official in the last 3 companies I worked for was captured via handwritten means.  Certainly nothing 20 years old has been kept without a very specific reason.  It certainly wouldn't have been kept in its original format.  This is due to the various internal and regulatory frameworks in which we operate.  Between documents needing to be on the correct template and stuff not being kept for more than N years without a waiver, there simply aren't "old" docs sitting around in boxes, waiting to be read.  This may be a very different business environment than you're accustomed to.

Yes, it is a different environment, where knowing cursive might be more useful than in your sphere. Please don't take this as a complaint, but more as a request for an explanation. Why does it seem as if you're saying that knowing cursive can only be relevant if it matters to the environment you work in, and whatever someone else see is not relevant? It's more than that, really, since you're also saying that the facts I told you (about boxes of documents from 20 years ago) are somehow a fiction. I'll check on Monday morning, but I'm pretty sure you can't banish the boxes by saying they don't exist.  =|


And, saying "I saw the counter guy jot down a bunch of notes and he wrote them out!" That's not a business practice. That's one guy taking notes.

Is that another comment from that other "Fistful"? Or perhaps you're referring to the photo I posted. That wasn't "notes." It was the purchase number (or job name) that was entered (in those super-readable print letters) for a pick ticket. Unless the salesman who scribbled it also entered it into the computer, Miss Accounts Receivable will have to figure it out. It's a good thing he didn't write in cursive, idn't it?


2.  Was cursive an easier way to write with the ink quills available in past centuries? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursive#Decline_of_English_cursive_in_the_United_States
Quote
One of the earliest forms of new technology that caused the decline of handwriting was the invention of the ballpoint pen patented in 1888 by John Loud. Two brothers, Lßszlˇ and Gy÷rgy BÝrˇ further developed the pen by changing the design and using different ink that dried quickly. With their design, it was guaranteed that the ink would not smudge, as it would with the earlier design of pen and it no longer required the careful penmanship one would use with the older design of pen.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 19, 2017, 02:00:25 PM
I suspect that transitory period passed a decade or more ago.
 Again, the period where cursive was transcribed to electronic means is long past.  Nothing official in the last 3 companies I worked for was captured via handwritten means.  Certainly nothing 20 years old has been kept without a very specific reason.  It certainly wouldn't have been kept in its original format.  This is due to the various internal and regulatory frameworks in which we operate.  Between documents needing to be on the correct template and stuff not being kept for more than N years without a waiver, there simply aren't "old" docs sitting around in boxes, waiting to be read.  This may be a very different business environment than you're accustomed to.

You keep talking about your company as if your company's needs and protocols apply to everyone, everywhere. That's just not the case. How about public records? Ever try to do a title search in a town clerk's office? Where I live, we have public records dating back to before the American Revolution. They aren't transcribed. I don't think they're even scanned -- they're just stored in a [somewhat] climate controlled, fireproof vault.

When I was researching whether or not I'm eligible for Sons of the American Revolution I got my hands on some old census records listing my grandfather and great-grandfather. Again, the records are copies of original, paper files ... in cursive.


Title: Re:
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 19, 2017, 02:55:19 PM
OCR scanning of legal records takes lots of time and lots of money.

But just because your county isn't doing it doesn't mean that other counties are either in process, or are even done and the records are available online.

Both Chris and I work for large companies.

While they certainly don't represent all companies everywhere,  they do represent the tip of the spear when it comes to things like this.

And the process toward automation is moving forward, not backward.



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Title: Re:
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 19, 2017, 03:00:15 PM
Fistful has always been a characticure of Fistful.

It's like an infinite silliness loop, as can be seen by his continuing dancing and evading to avoid providing answers to simple, direct questions.

Bravo.

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Title: Re: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 19, 2017, 03:04:16 PM
Law.  At least all the lawyers I work with use it very heavily as a way to quickly annotate documents (electronic and hard copy).
How do you annotate electronic records in cursive?

Write on the display with a China marker?

And I find it hard to imagine that cursive is so crucial to the process that the practice of annotation would collapse if cursive was no longer taught.

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Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: mtnbkr on March 19, 2017, 03:45:05 PM
Yes, it is a different environment, where knowing cursive might be more useful than in your sphere. Please don't take this as a complaint, but more as a request for an explanation. Why does it seem as if you're saying that knowing cursive can only be relevant if it matters to the environment you work in, and whatever someone else see is not relevant?
Not saying that at all, but I am saying the environment I work in is pretty typical of a large corporation (Fortune 500), where my specific role gives me visibility and oversight into how we store, categorize, and manage documentation over multi-year periods.  In my current role, I'm a senior manager and interact directly with various VPs in my company.  I'm in charge of the regulatory and compliance programs for the division I manage.  I am the one who hosts the auditors and develops remediation plans for the observations, or, God forbid, the non-conformities they discover.  To say this sort of thing is on my radar is an understatement.  So forgive me when I point out that we would not have boxes of 20yo documents sitting around.  In fact, our standard for document retention is 2yrs, beyond which you need an approved waiver.  Your binders full of women boxes of old documents would be a liability to us.

It's more than that, really, since you're also saying that the facts I told you (about boxes of documents from 20 years ago) are somehow a fiction. I'll check on Monday morning, but I'm pretty sure you can't banish the boxes by saying they don't exist.  =|
You keep talking about your company as if your company's needs and protocols apply to everyone, everywhere. That's just not the case. How about public records? Ever try to do a title search in a town clerk's office? Where I live, we have public records dating back to before the American Revolution. They aren't transcribed. I don't think they're even scanned -- they're just stored in a [somewhat] climate controlled, fireproof vault.
I'm not saying they're fiction in your work life, I'm saying they wouldn't exist in mine due to the internal regulations and external regulatory environments within which we operate.  A box of 20yo documents is a liability.  My company is not unique in that respect.  The environment in which I operate is pretty common as the "best practices" and audit compliance needs non-industry-specific and commonplace in a number of markets and industries.

When I was researching whether or not I'm eligible for Sons of the American Revolution I got my hands on some old census records listing my grandfather and great-grandfather. Again, the records are copies of original, paper files ... in cursive.
Congratulations, you found a corner case.  This shall be the basis upon which we will educate our children.  ;/

Chris


Title: Re: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: cordex on March 19, 2017, 03:54:45 PM
How do you annotate electronic records in cursive?

Write on the display with a China marker?

And I find it hard to imagine that cursive is so crucial to the process that the practice of annotation would collapse if cursive was no longer taught.
Um ... stylus based digitizers are a thing. There is a reason that Microsoft Surfaces are popular in the legal profession.

Of course it isn't absolutely necessary to use cursive. Then again, attorneys could easily type out everything themselves but many of most still use transcription software and/or a dedicated transcriptionist because it is a little bit faster.  Being able to annotate a little quicker is worthwhile in that profession.


Title: Re: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 19, 2017, 05:08:09 PM
How do you annotate electronic records in cursive?

Write on the display with a China marker?

Wait -- is this the same Mike Irwin who, a couple of posts above, said "And the process toward automation is moving forward, not backward"? You don't know that there are "apps" that allow scribbling notes on a screen to annotate a digital document?


Title: Re:
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 19, 2017, 05:36:22 PM
Jesus, get the joke people!

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Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: 230RN on March 19, 2017, 05:38:55 PM
This one has run its course and in my opinion, does not reflect positively on this website.

Next thing you know, we'll be discussing whether having to dot an i in cursive defeats its purpose of having a smooth flow of writing.

As to being taught in schools?  Local choice.

 :facepalm:

Terry, 230RN


Title: Re:
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 19, 2017, 05:42:13 PM
Cursive pooper!

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Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: 230RN on March 19, 2017, 05:50:46 PM
<sigh>


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: fistful on March 19, 2017, 06:14:30 PM
mtnbkr, I don't think anyone's trying to tell you that your company is like some other company. I, for one, was just pointing out practices in two places where I've worked. I didn't mean to say, and I don't think anyone said, that any specific company was doing the same. I did use it as evidence to suggest it was also done by other organizations, but not yours specifically.

Mike, what simple, direct questions do you want me to answer?


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: 230RN on March 19, 2017, 06:47:40 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_many_angels_can_dance_on_the_head_of_a_pin%3F#Humoristic_answers

:rofl:


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 20, 2017, 02:36:01 AM
"Mike, what simple, direct questions do you want me to answer?"

Well, since you seem to believe that the ability to read/write in cursive is somehow the lynchpin that keeps the US economy from flying apart, what industry, economic sector, job class, etc., in the United States would be devastated if schools in the United States were to stop teaching children how to read and/or write cursive?

Someone provided the example of the legal profession. But attorneys could easily replace cursive with block printing or typing, so the impact is, well... nil.



Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 20, 2017, 02:41:36 AM
You know, I just thought of an industry that would be devastated were the teaching of cursive eliminated... the Chinese food industry.

If China stopped teaching cursive in their schools, how would all of those immigrant order takers get your order for lemon chicken and wonton soup?

Worse, if China stopped teaching people how to read cursive, how would the one Chinese person in the kitchen be able to read the order slip and translate it into Spanish for the 6 Hondurans who are actually doing the cooking?

Keep teaching cursive, China, lunch is coming up and I've got a hankering for shrimp lo mein! :rofl:


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 20, 2017, 02:43:11 AM
This one has run its course and in my opinion, does not reflect positively on this website.

Next thing you know, we'll be discussing whether having to dot an i in cursive defeats its purpose of having a smooth flow of writing.

As to being taught in schools?  Local choice.

 :facepalm:

Terry, 230RN

See, Terry, that's your problem. You have all these high expectations...  :laugh:


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: cordex on March 20, 2017, 03:14:47 AM
Mike,
Just to be clear, if something is not (in your opinion) absolutely essential or irreplaceable it should not be taught?


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 20, 2017, 03:33:14 AM
Did I say that anywhere in this thread?

Be a good chap and show me where I said that.

I'm asking for examples of the economic, social, and moral devastation that would be wrought by schools stopping the teaching of cursive writing and reading, as that seems to be the primary reason some believe it should always be taught.



Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: freakazoid on March 20, 2017, 04:13:13 AM
No one said it was the linchpin of the economy either.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 20, 2017, 04:29:36 AM
No one said it was the linchpin of the economy either.

But that seems to be a prevailing theory backing up the "need" for cursive to be taught in schools.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: dogmush on March 20, 2017, 04:47:11 AM
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/dogmush/script_zpsdsbnvsow.jpg) (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/dogmush/media/script_zpsdsbnvsow.jpg.html)


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Ben on March 20, 2017, 05:06:01 AM
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/dogmush/script_zpsdsbnvsow.jpg) (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/dogmush/media/script_zpsdsbnvsow.jpg.html)

Looks like Dogmush just gave an example of "essential and irreplaceable".  =D


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 20, 2017, 05:26:06 AM
Looks like Dogmush just gave an example of "essential and irreplaceable".  =D

You can get the same effect with millennials simply by printing in proper, grammatically correct English and not putting in smiley faces, tortured abbreviations, or calls for social action.   


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: 230RN on March 20, 2017, 05:41:59 AM
 Yeah.... sigh.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 20, 2017, 06:13:56 AM

If China stopped teaching cursive in their schools, how would all of those immigrant order takers get your order for lemon chicken and wonton soup?


It used to be that in a good Chinese restaurant the waiters (excuse me, "wait staff") never wrote anything down -- regardless of how many were seated at a table. It was a sign of their professionalism that they took every order by memory and never got anything wrong. I have no idea how they did it, but I saw it in operation enough times that it left me absolutely gobsmacked.

These days I can only afford the fast food, take-out type of Chinese restaurants, or the buffets.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: MechAg94 on March 20, 2017, 07:24:56 AM
It used to be that in a good Chinese restaurant the waiters (excuse me, "wait staff") never wrote anything down -- regardless of how many were seated at a table. It was a sign of their professionalism that they took every order by memory and never got anything wrong. I have no idea how they did it, but I saw it in operation enough times that it left me absolutely gobsmacked.

These days I can only afford the fast food, take-out type of Chinese restaurants, or the buffets.
I have seen that in the nicer restaurants before.  However, I don't care if they write it down just that they get it right. 


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 20, 2017, 08:09:03 AM
I have seen that in the nicer restaurants before.  However, I don't care if they write it down just that they get it right.  

True, but the real question is: When they do it mentally, is the mental record in cursive, or block Han characters??


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: fistful on March 20, 2017, 08:14:04 AM
"Mike, what simple, direct questions do you want me to answer?"

Well, since you seem to believe that the ability to read/write in cursive is somehow the lynchpin that keeps the US economy from flying apart, what industry, economic sector, job class, etc., in the United States would be devastated if schools in the United States were to stop teaching children how to read and/or write cursive?


 =) As expected. You ask me to substantiate claims I didn't make. Perhaps that's why I don't answer.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 20, 2017, 08:53:26 AM
That's clearly been your inference in any number of messages in this thread.

So, once again, what businesses will suffer grievous calamity if cursive goes extinct?



Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: fistful on March 20, 2017, 10:58:55 AM
That's clearly been your inference in any number of messages in this thread.

So, once again, what businesses will suffer grievous calamity if cursive goes extinct?

 :lol: Now who's dancing?

Inference is something the reader does, rather than the writer. If you mean that I implied some grievous calamity, I'd love to see it. Let's see what you come up with.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: KD5NRH on March 20, 2017, 11:10:35 AM
So, once again, what businesses will suffer grievous calamity if cursive goes extinct?

Ugly greeting cards.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 20, 2017, 12:08:49 PM
That's clearly been your inference in any number of messages in this thread.

So, once again, what businesses will suffer grievous calamity if cursive goes extinct?



Real estate title searches.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: MechAg94 on March 20, 2017, 12:23:59 PM
True, but the real question is: When they do it mentally, is the mental record in cursive, or block Han characters??
Does Chinese really have cursive?  I would have a tough time writing cursive right to left and vertical down the page. 


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: cordex on March 20, 2017, 12:26:21 PM
Did I say that anywhere in this thread?

Be a good chap and show me where I said that.
Just here:
I'm asking for examples of the economic, social, and moral devastation that would be wrought by schools stopping the teaching of cursive writing and reading, as that seems to be the primary reason some believe it should always be taught.
Your primary argument in this thread seems to be that modern business can survive without it so it doesn't need to be taught.  Is that not your line of reasoning?  It seems to be the thrust of just about every post.

I agree that most people don't use it and don't need it to survive.
I agree that the economy won't collapse because of a lack of cursive competence. 
On the flip side:
I don't see it as counterproductive to learn cursive.
I could see learning cursive to be useful (especially at the age it is taught) to further teach hand-eye coordination.
There is a lot of cursive out there, and I think it is worthwhile for people to be able to read it.
I don't have any faith that schools will replace it with something worthwhile.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: 230RN on March 20, 2017, 12:39:10 PM
Real estate title searches.

Gee, this thread was getting funny again until you brought up that gem of an observation... I'm serious, not being snarky.

Too bad the title insurance companies destroy all the historical lore in those abstracts after they've done the title search.

But all those old records were written in a time when good penmanship was essential and "enforced" by the standards of "good practice."  I surmise that a Clerk and Recorder would not last long if he or she ("they") scribbled stuff out like my aforementioned correspondent; "pfbibxly," indeed.

That's really my only bitch about using cursive:  if you're going to use it, at least  put some effort into making it legible.  Otherwise, let local practice and perceived needs dictate whether it should be taught as an additional life skill, and leave the feds out of it.

Terry

REF (Just because the concept of "lost skills" reminded me of it):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Feeling_of_Power



Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: fistful on March 20, 2017, 12:43:19 PM
I agree that most people don't use it and don't need it to survive.
I agree that the economy won't collapse because of a lack of cursive competence. 
On the flip side:
I don't see it as counterproductive to learn cursive.
I could see learning cursive to be useful (especially at the age it is taught) to further teach hand-eye coordination.
There is a lot of cursive out there, and I think it is worthwhile for people to be able to read it.
I don't have any faith that schools will replace it with something worthwhile.

I agree with all of that, except the part about most people not using cursive. I don't know whether they do or not.

And how dare you put words in Mike's mouth? He would never. ever. ever. ever. ever. ever. ever. ever. ever. do that to you.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Ben on March 20, 2017, 01:57:21 PM
ALERT. ALERT. ALERT.

THREAD CLOSURE IMMINENT.

EXECUTE EVASIVE ACTION ON MY MARK.

MARK!



Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: cordex on March 20, 2017, 02:07:12 PM
I agree with all of that, except the part about most people not using cursive. I don't know whether they do
Fair point.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: 230RN on March 20, 2017, 02:51:38 PM
ALERT. ALERT. ALERT.

THREAD CLOSURE IMMINENT.

EXECUTE EVASIVE ACTION ON MY MARK.

MARK!



:D < take note.

Oh, come on.  When was the last time a thread was closed merely because of nit-picking debating team-type prolix?

Let the picayune back-and-forthing continue!

As I said, it's starting to get funny hilarious again.

 :rofl: at these comedians.

Terry


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: lupinus on March 20, 2017, 03:38:38 PM
I think the real question is cursive cornbread recipe on a note case, vs block letting on the back of a jiffy corn cake mix box. Cooked in cast iron washed with or without soap.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: freakazoid on March 20, 2017, 04:17:20 PM
Does Chinese really have cursive?  I would have a tough time writing cursive right to left and vertical down the page. 

Yes. It's where Japanese Hiragana comes from, or maybe it is their Katakana.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: MechAg94 on March 20, 2017, 04:23:35 PM
Okay.  I thought their version of cursive was just a westernized way of doing their language and not traditional.  I never looked up history of it though.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: freakazoid on March 20, 2017, 04:32:24 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/mnVws6z.jpg?fb)


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Ben on March 20, 2017, 04:54:25 PM
This thread actually got me to thinking that I'm not sure  I could write in cursive right this second. I'm going to look it up, but without doing so first, I just ran through the alphabet and I can't remember how to make a proper capital "L" or either of the "Zs". As soon as I see them I'll be thinking "oh yeah", but I can't picture either one right now.

Regardless of whether cursive is functional in modern society, I still want to be able to write it mostly because I hate losing skills that I already have. If it's already in my brain, I might as well keep it there. Lord knows there's plenty of room.  :laugh:


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: lupinus on March 20, 2017, 05:20:12 PM
I have a habit when writing cursive that letters will often be modified to more of a block text style, particularly capital letters. A for instance, or F and Q, are usually not "proper" cursive form but are still script and easily identifiable.

As for cursive yes I think it should still be taught. It's a proper and major form for writing our language. There are plenty of people who use it, plenty of historical documents in it and plenty that aren't even old enough to really be historical imo, etc.

It's not the end of the world if it isn't taught but then again it's not the end of the world if a LOT of things were to be dropped from the standard education program. And a lot of those before how to at least read and preferably also write in cursive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: fistful on March 20, 2017, 06:01:34 PM
True, but the real question is: When they do it mentally, is the mental record in cursive, or block Han characters??

You're interested in their mental Han-writing?


Until this thread, and until I image-searched the words "cursive" and "meme," I was not aware that writing like an adult was considered to be a useless kind of fancy-writin' one learns in school, and then forgets. Electronic communication may be part of that, but I think it must also be poorly-taught, if people are finding it too difficult to actually use.

I'm going to have to use cursive more often. People will think I'm some sort of lesser deity.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Amy Schumer on March 21, 2017, 07:28:35 AM
I know when I have seen letters written by soldiers in past wars, the writing was beautiful and the prose exquisite.   All from people who were for the most part grade school drop-outs.

I wept for how far our education system has fallen.  And I use it to point out how the more .gov meddles in local affairs, the worse the outcome.  (I'm looking at you Dept of Education.)


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 28, 2017, 03:16:03 AM
"Your primary argument in this thread seems to be that modern business can survive without it so it doesn't need to be taught.  Is that not your line of reasoning?  It seems to be the thrust of just about every post."

That's exactly what I'm saying. It doesn't NEED to be taught.

Which is counter to the argument of a few in here who seem to think that reading and writing cursive are somehow the single lynchpin of modern society, without which we would collapse back into the stone ages, and thus it MUST be taught, at all costs.



Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: cordex on March 28, 2017, 03:41:58 AM
That's exactly what I'm saying. It doesn't NEED to be taught.
I agree.  If schools had to prove absolute economic necessity and irreplacability then cursive would certainly not meet that standard. Of course, the same could be said of literature, world history, US history, art, music, handwriting, home economics,  etc., etc.

Which is counter to the argument of a few in here who seem to think that reading and writing cursive are somehow the single lynchpin of modern society, without which we would collapse back into the stone ages, and thus it MUST be taught, at all costs.
Of course such reasoning is preposterous. Perhaps you could be a good chap and point to the posts that make that argument as I completely missed them.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 28, 2017, 04:00:25 AM
"I agree.  If schools had to prove absolute economic necessity and irreplacability then cursive would certainly not meet that standard. Of course, the same could be said of literature, world history, US history, art, music, handwriting, home economics,  etc., etc."

Fail, although art and music are considered electives for significant reasons.

The other classes are significant because not teaching them chokes off HUGE avenues of understanding and knowledge about the modern world.

Not teaching cursive doesn't do that, because you're not choking off the teaching of all scripted forms of communication, i.e., promoting illiteracy.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: cordex on March 28, 2017, 04:41:56 AM
The other classes are significant because not teaching them chokes off HUGE avenues of understanding and knowledge about the modern world.

Not teaching cursive doesn't do that, because you're not choking off the teaching of all scripted forms of communication, i.e., promoting illiteracy.
Wait, I thought our threshold was "the single lynchpin of modern society, without which we would collapse back into the stone ages."


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 28, 2017, 04:50:20 AM
Wait, I thought our threshold was "the single lynchpin of modern society, without which we would collapse back into the stone ages."

The way people have talked about its mystical properties in this thread, I'd have to say yes, some do believe that cursive is the single point of failure between HBO and back to cave dwelling.

Otherwise, why would be people be so completely wedded to what is a superfluous and far too often overtly cryptic means of "communication."

Maybe that's it. Maybe cursive's qualities lend itself to being the unbreakable code to prevent the .gub from spying on us?


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: cordex on March 28, 2017, 04:57:46 AM
The way people have talked about its mystical properties in this thread, I'd have to say yes, some do believe that cursive is the single point of failure between HBO and back to cave dwelling.
Who?  In which post?


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 28, 2017, 05:09:24 AM
Who?  In which post?

Really? You want exact words? You're incapable of grasping nuance?

Here's a nuance. Cursive is a *expletive deleted*ing waste of time in modern society.

I wonder what I mean by that?


Try post 42.

No, no, that can't be the case. The people who are complaining about cursive falling out of favor are only doing so because they are traditionalists, and you know, the old ways of the people and the telling of the stories is how we know who are are and where we came from...

I guess that's why Latin is a thriving language...


Boy you quill pen, black powder, horseback riding, breeches wearing luddites are fun to tweek...  >:D


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: cordex on March 28, 2017, 05:47:58 AM
Fail, although art and music are considered electives for significant reasons.
I forgot to address this.  In my elementary school we had no elective classes, although we did have music and art.

Really? You want exact words?
???  Is that really such an outrageous request?

You're incapable of grasping nuance?
"Nuance" and "strawman" are not synonyms.

Try post 42.
Is that honestly how you read mak's post?


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: freakazoid on March 28, 2017, 05:50:28 AM
Really? You want exact words? You're incapable of grasping nuance?

Here's a nuance. Cursive is a *expletive deleted*ing waste of time in modern society.

I wonder what I mean by that?


Try post 42.

No, no, that can't be the case. The people who are complaining about cursive falling out of favor are only doing so because they are traditionalists, and you know, the old ways of the people and the telling of the stories is how we know who are are and where we came from...

I guess that's why Latin is a thriving language...


Boy you quill pen, black powder, horseback riding, breeches wearing luddites are fun to tweek...  >:D

Just because 42 is the answer to life, the universe, and everything; doesn't mean that the post is talking about cursive being the linchpin of society.

I forgot to address this.  In my elementary school we had no elective classes, although we did have music and art.
 ???  Is that really such an outrageous request?
"Nuance" and "strawman" are not synonyms.
Is that honestly how you read mak's post?

It's fistfuls post.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: freakazoid on March 28, 2017, 05:57:45 AM
The way people have talked about its mystical properties in this thread, I'd have to say yes, some do believe that cursive is the single point of failure between HBO and back to cave dwelling.

Otherwise, why would be people be so completely wedded to what is a superfluous and far too often overtly cryptic means of "communication."

Maybe that's it. Maybe cursive's qualities lend itself to being the unbreakable code to prevent the .gub from spying on us?

But those other classes still are not the linchpin. We could get rid of teaching literature, world history, US history, art, music, handwriting, home economics,  etc., etc. Because apparently that is the only reason for teaching cursive?
Funny, I don't remember that about cursive when I was taught it in grade school and I understood pretty damn well... in grade school.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: MechAg94 on March 28, 2017, 06:11:31 AM
I know when I have seen letters written by soldiers in past wars, the writing was beautiful and the prose exquisite.   All from people who were for the most part grade school drop-outs.

I wept for how far our education system has fallen.  And I use it to point out how the more .gov meddles in local affairs, the worse the outcome.  (I'm looking at you Dept of Education.)
Some of that might be cultural and some education.  Teachers taught better writing and demanded it be done that way.  Also, the speaking and writing in radio and print media was generally done in proper English.


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 28, 2017, 06:21:17 AM
"But those other classes still are not the linchpin."

You're right, NOTHING is the lynchpin.

That's why we should get rid of ALL government mandated public education!


"Just because 42 is the answer to life, the universe, and everything"

I wondered if any of you would get why I chose that post...

You slackjawed yokels still don't get it, do you?

I even told you, you guys are FUN TO TWEEK.

Of course cursive isn't the scripted equivalent to 42. Watching you clownfish run around, wring your hands, and get all defendy and consternated over obviously ridiculous statements is.

Hum... maybe you're not so fun to tweek after all. You just don't realize you're being tweeked.

Personally, I don't care if cursive is taught in schools or not.

The historian in me says hey, it's traditional and a tie to the past, so why not teach it.

The pragmatic part of me says what does it really matter, because most schools are sucking in little dullards and spitting out larger dullards, so it's all pretty much everything is lost on them.

The evil part of me says I love discussions like this...


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: fistful on March 28, 2017, 06:53:48 AM
"Nuance" and "strawman" are not synonyms.


I think the word he's looking for is "hyperbole." So let's hyperbolate. Hey, Mike. Why do you want schools to only teach picture books? Why do you want to limit mathematics to tally marks, and word problems about children holding handfuls of apples?


The pragmatic part of me says what does it really matter, because most schools are sucking in little dullards and spitting out larger dullards, so it's all pretty much everything is lost on them.

True. If the schools are going to be warehouses for kids, in an Idiocracy, then it really doesn't matter.

Hows come you ain't got no tattoo, man?


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 28, 2017, 07:13:30 AM
Why, I don't want schools to teach anything at all!

Look at the job they did with you lot!

Talk about wasted tax dollars...


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Ben on March 28, 2017, 07:35:38 AM
What happens if I order a quill pen and parchment paper on Amazon and I print a letter?  =D


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 28, 2017, 08:37:47 AM
What happens if I order a quill pen and parchment paper on Amazon and I print a letter?  =D

You get a refund of your school taxes?


Title: Re: We're doomed.
Post by: cordex on March 28, 2017, 10:15:26 AM
You slackjawed yokels still don't get it, do you?

I even told you, you guys are FUN TO TWEEK.

Of course cursive isn't the scripted equivalent to 42. Watching you clownfish run around, wring your hands, and get all defendy and consternated over obviously ridiculous statements is.

Hum... maybe you're not so fun to tweek after all. You just don't realize you're being tweeked.
Oh man, you showed us.  There's nothing quite as intellectually dazzling as emphatically and repeatedly making weak arguments against positions no one holds then hammering it home with "LOLZ!  I TROLLED YOU!"


Title: Re:
Post by: Mike Irwin on March 28, 2017, 11:55:11 AM
Yes I'm sure it was a learning experience for you...

While it was really an exercise in do these as asshats really care about this boredom relief for me.

Thanks for playing!

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


Title: Re:
Post by: cordex on March 28, 2017, 12:39:15 PM
Yes I'm sure it was a learning experience for you...
So much in life is.


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