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Main Forums => Round Table => Topic started by: freakazoid on August 28, 2017, 04:10:23 AM



Title: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: freakazoid on August 28, 2017, 04:10:23 AM
http://neveryetmelted.com/2017/08/24/in-sweden-officials-are-simply-recycling-bronze-and-iron-age-artifacts/

Apparently in Sweden it is common to not save and preserve every artifact in order to save costs and instead simply melt them down.
Have you heard anything about this Viking?


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: HankB on August 28, 2017, 04:36:58 AM
From the article:

Quote
Archaeologists do not give away or sell finds because they do not want to create a market for antiquities and encourage robbers with metal detectors, says Runer. Thus: the bin.

So better they DESTROY the artifacts rather than risk having them enter the market and end up in the hands of people other than professional archaeologists.

Barbarians.  :mad:


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: Mike Irwin on August 28, 2017, 08:10:32 AM
"So better they DESTROY the artifacts rather than risk having them enter the market and end up in the hands of people other than professional archaeologists."

No, I understand the concern.

If you monetize the artifacts and create a market for them, you get people whose only concern is to find as much stuff as possible, as quickly as possible, to get as much money as possible, and it becomes a competition of archaeologist vs profit hunter. The potential for having irreplaceable historic context and knowledge destroyed by people who don't give a crap about that becomes immense.

This kind of black market profit driven "archaeology" is a huge problem in the American Southwest, Central America, and Egypt.


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: MillCreek on August 28, 2017, 08:46:51 AM
^^^I have heard of the same thing happening with fossils and meteorites.


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: Mike Irwin on August 28, 2017, 09:26:55 AM
^^^I have heard of the same thing happening with fossils and meteorites.

Yes, the best example is Sue the T-Rex from some years ago.

But, in those cases, the potential for loss of knowledge associated with the item isn't nearly as great as it is with man-made objects.

A good example happened a few years ago in an excavation in Virginia in my neck of the woods.

The find was a storage cellar associated with a small plantation. It had been abandoned, and there was a lot of local, slave-made pottery called Colono-ware in it, including some extremely rare large pieces. It helped establish that the plantation had a resident slave population, which hadn't been known before. Some of the pottery still had food in it, which gave some insight into what the slaves had been growing for their own use. And finally, the clay used to make the pottery was traced to deposits on the plantation itself.

Had a for-profit excavator found that cellar, it's likely that all of that information would have been lost in the rush to bring those items to the collector market.


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: BTR on August 28, 2017, 11:46:45 AM
It is my understanding that archaeologists throwing away artifacts after studying them is nothing new, unfortunately.


Title: Re:
Post by: Mike Irwin on August 28, 2017, 01:27:30 PM
The simple truth is not all old things are valuable.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


Title: Re:
Post by: Hawkmoon on August 28, 2017, 01:44:19 PM
The simple truth is not all old things are valuable.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

NOW you tell me.




[Slinks off to empty garage]


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: freakazoid on August 28, 2017, 03:34:16 PM
"So better they DESTROY the artifacts rather than risk having them enter the market and end up in the hands of people other than professional archaeologists."

No, I understand the concern.

If you monetize the artifacts and create a market for them, you get people whose only concern is to find as much stuff as possible, as quickly as possible, to get as much money as possible, and it becomes a competition of archaeologist vs profit hunter. The potential for having irreplaceable historic context and knowledge destroyed by people who don't give a crap about that becomes immense.

This kind of black market profit driven "archaeology" is a huge problem in the American Southwest, Central America, and Egypt.

Except now it sounds like the profit hunter would be the only one actually saving them.


Title: Re:
Post by: mtnbkr on August 28, 2017, 04:05:16 PM
The simple truth is not all old things are valuable.

Been trying to get that point across to you for years.  :old:

Chris


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: Mike Irwin on August 29, 2017, 03:37:00 AM
Except now it sounds like the profit hunter would be the only one actually saving them.

"Saving" them at the expense of creating a market that encourages wanton looting and outright destruction of archaeological sites.

That's not a winning scenario.



Title: Re:
Post by: Mike Irwin on August 29, 2017, 03:37:57 AM
Been trying to get that point across to you for years.  :old:

Chris

I'm going to have a VERY long talk with Abby and Emmy about the things they need to look for when they choose your nursing home.


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: makattak on August 29, 2017, 07:46:36 AM
"Saving" them at the expense of creating a market that encourages wanton looting and outright destruction of archaeological sites.

That's not a winning scenario.

That market already exists. I'm somewhat confused as to how destroying artifacts prevents people from paying illegal treasure hunters.

IF legitimate archaeologists/institutions/museums sold their "useless"* artifacts, how does that encourage illicit trade that already exists? I would think it would lessen the demand for illicit artifacts.

A good example happened a few years ago in an excavation in Virginia in my neck of the woods.

The find was a storage cellar associated with a small plantation. It had been abandoned, and there was a lot of local, slave-made pottery called Colono-ware in it, including some extremely rare large pieces. It helped establish that the plantation had a resident slave population, which hadn't been known before. Some of the pottery still had food in it, which gave some insight into what the slaves had been growing for their own use. And finally, the clay used to make the pottery was traced to deposits on the plantation itself.

Had a for-profit excavator found that cellar, it's likely that all of that information would have been lost in the rush to bring those items to the collector market.

Also, how does a "for profit" excavator destroy all the value? The whole POINT of these artifacts is their historical significance. Someone is going to pay big $$ for a clay pot some guy claims he found in the ground in Virginia? Really?


*because that's what they've claimed by destroying them


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: BTR on August 29, 2017, 08:06:47 AM
Destroying artifacts drives up the value of the remaining ones, making it more profitable to loot new sites...


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: Mike Irwin on August 29, 2017, 08:08:41 AM
Yes, the market exists. But it's an illegal market, and the penalties can be, depending on where you are, quite severe.

Adopting that stance, though, is not unlike saying well, murder already exists, why not make it legal and make some money off it?

"IF legitimate archaeologists/institutions/museums sold their "useless"* artifacts, how does that encourage illicit trade that already exists? I would think it would lessen the demand for illicit artifacts."

It undercuts the laws that exists to prevent such illegal trade.


"Also, how does a "for profit" excavator destroy all the value? The whole POINT of these artifacts is their historical significance."

Read what I wrote again. The value of these artifacts is FAR greater than just their monetary value, as I pointed out. For profit excavators, interested in ONLY the monetary value of an object, destroy their contextual value.


"Someone is going to pay big $$ for a clay pot some guy claims he found in the ground in Virginia? Really?"

I don't know what the market value is for Colono-ware pottery in Virginia, but I do know that the illegal market value for pre-Columbian Navajo, Hopi, and Anasazi pottery can be... and it can be staggeringly high.


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: makattak on August 29, 2017, 08:11:08 AM
Yes, the market exists. But it's an illegal market, and the penalties can be, depending on where you are, quite severe.

Adopting that stance, though, is not unlike saying well, murder already exists, why not make it legal and make some money off it?

"IF legitimate archaeologists/institutions/museums sold their "useless"* artifacts, how does that encourage illicit trade that already exists? I would think it would lessen the demand for illicit artifacts."

It undercuts the laws that exists to prevent such illegal trade.


"Also, how does a "for profit" excavator destroy all the value? The whole POINT of these artifacts is their historical significance."

Read what I wrote again. The value of these artifacts is FAR greater than just their monetary value, as I pointed out. For profit excavators, interested in ONLY the monetary value of an object, destroy their contextual value.


"Someone is going to pay big $$ for a clay pot some guy claims he found in the ground in Virginia? Really?"

I don't know what the market value is for Colono-ware pottery in Virginia, but I do know that the illegal market value for pre-Columbian Navajo, Hopi, and Anasazi pottery can be... and it can be staggeringly high.

You're not answering the objection, though.

If legitimate sources of the artifacts were available, how does that benefit the illicit sources?

Is legitimate hunting in Africa a boon to the poachers?


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: Mike Irwin on August 29, 2017, 08:17:20 AM
"Destroying artifacts drives up the value of the remaining ones, making it more profitable to loot new sites..."

Actually, no, not necessarily.

Excavations in Colonial Williamsburg over the years have recovered something like 30,000 hand forged nails.

Similar numbers have been recovered from other large sites around the nation.

Excavations of Civil War sites have recovered hundreds of thousands of spent .58 caliber Minie balls.

In both cases, they're old, they're "historic," and they are so common that they are essentially of minimal value (despite what the trinket shops in Gettysburg try to charge).


In both cases, however, the value of those objects, the nails and the bullets, isn't necessarily registered in dollars and cents, but in what it can tell us about what was happening at that site when those objects were in use. Just as with the Colono-ware found in Virginia. As I noted, had those items been found by for profit artifact hunters, the information about what was stored in some of those vessels would have been lost, the fact that they gave definitive proof of slave habitation of that plantation (really an outlying farm to a larger plantation) would have been lost, and the origin of the material used to make them would have been lost.


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: Mike Irwin on August 29, 2017, 08:24:51 AM
"If legitimate sources of the artifacts were available, how does that benefit the illicit sources?"

You really think that opening up a "legitimate" source of artifacts would completely quash illegal harvesting and trade?

How does that work out with cigarettes and alcohol in the United States? Perfect legal, available from legitimate sources, and still a very potent vector for illegal activity. Obviously the illegal sources should not benefit, but they do.

Additionally, we're talking about destruction of what are basically trinket artifacts. Commonly found items. Those are the items that are being destroyed, not the rare incised ewer or the seed pot.


"Is legitimate hunting in Africa a boon to the poachers?"

If legitimate hunting were supplying the speciality items that pochers were looking for -- rhino horn, leopard pelts, ivory -- maybe. But legitimate hunting isn't.

The trade in illegal, poached ivory is in some ways analogous to the trade in rare pottery.


Title: Re:
Post by: adively on August 29, 2017, 08:42:56 AM
I'm going to have a VERY long talk with Abby and Emmy about the things they need to look for when they choose your nursing home.

Is that the nursing home that has a long walk off of a short pier?


Title: Re:
Post by: Mike Irwin on August 29, 2017, 08:44:24 AM
Is that the nursing home that has a long walk off of a short pier?

No, not at all.

They want to look into the one staffed entirely by people with elder abuse convictions.

Quite reasonable rates.


Title: Re:
Post by: freakazoid on August 29, 2017, 03:21:23 PM
No, not at all.

They want to look into the one staffed entirely by people with elder abuse convictions.

Quite reasonable rates.

(https://i.pinimg.com/236x/fd/bd/40/fdbd402a3d86a82916e09f260916ac03--nurse-jokes-nursing-students.jpg)


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: Warren on August 29, 2017, 06:27:50 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/bVpxCIV.png)


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: KD5NRH on August 29, 2017, 11:33:21 PM
How does that work out with cigarettes and alcohol in the United States? Perfect legal, available from legitimate sources, and still a very potent vector for illegal activity.

How much alcohol bootlegging is going on now, compared with 1930?

I guarantee you that if I set out to get some of each, weed would be far easier to get than a shot of true home-distilled illicit moonshine.

But even more to the point, how do they know they've fully studied the artifacts?  How much information have we gained by reexamining long-since-found-looked-at-and-filed-away artifacts with advanced imaging, x-rays, carbon dating, etc.?  Imagine if Ramesses II had been simply sent off for cremation after an 1880s-technology exam, how much less we would know.


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: Mike Irwin on August 30, 2017, 03:26:40 AM
"But even more to the point, how do they know they've fully studied the artifacts?  How much information have we gained by reexamining long-since-found-looked-at-and-filed-away artifacts with advanced imaging, x-rays, carbon dating, etc.?  Imagine if Ramesses II had been simply sent off for cremation after an 1880s-technology exam, how much less we would know."

Let's see... 30+ thousand of these... with hundreds, if not thousands, more found on virtually every American archaeological site.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQMZoBz_XP8ZoNF0hH_JdStNK6U2jxzWq8rWHzDw3ZiOMrljLokMg)


vs...


(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/TUT-Ausstellung_FFM_2012_47_%287117819557%29.jpg/188px-TUT-Ausstellung_FFM_2012_47_%287117819557%29.jpg)


Which should be kept?

You figure it out.


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: Mike Irwin on August 30, 2017, 03:29:38 AM
"How much alcohol bootlegging is going on now, compared with 1930?"

Non sequitor.

In 1930 virtually ALL alcohol -- production, sale, and in many cases, possession -- was strictly illegal. That created a completely different kind of market.

There are no such laws against trade in legally obtained artifacts, and don't kid yourself, there are MANY legally obtained artifacts, but also illegally obtained artifacts.


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: freakazoid on August 30, 2017, 04:44:58 AM
"How much alcohol bootlegging is going on now, compared with 1930?"

Non sequitor.

In 1930 virtually ALL alcohol -- production, sale, and in many cases, possession -- was strictly illegal. That created a completely different kind of market.

I think that is the point.


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: Mike Irwin on August 30, 2017, 04:52:24 AM
I think that is the point.

No, it's not the point.

Because while bootlegging does exist today, so does legal at home beer and wine production in addition to legal industrial production. It didn't in 1930. It was zero sum.

The alcohol situation in 1930 would only be applicable if ALL artifact possession and recovery were outlawed.


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: cordex on August 30, 2017, 04:53:55 AM
Mike,

Just to clarify, your argument is as follows:
1. There exists an illegal market in artifacts
2. There exists a legal market in artifacts
3. There exists an oversupply in low-historical-value artifacts which need not be kept by museums or research institutions.
4. If those low-historical-value artifacts were sold on the legal market, the illegal market in artifacts would likewise grow, thereby putting at risk as-yet undiscovered high-historical-value artifacts by unscrupulous researchers and/or freelance mooks with metal detectors.

If so, I sort of see your point, but I'm not convinced.  In relatively population-dense places such as Europe, regular commercial development is likely a much greater risk to undiscovered artifacts than artifact hunters.  If there didn't already exist a legal artifact market then the idea of researching looting the interesting stuff and applying a scorched earth policy for the rest might make some sort of sense.  As it is, I don't see how selling off items of limited historical value would suddenly spur the illegal market.


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: Mike Irwin on August 30, 2017, 05:05:15 AM
"regular commercial development is likely a much greater risk to undiscovered artifacts"


That's pretty much true everywhere.

It's why many nations in Europe, and also many states in the US, have stringent historic preservation laws that mandate archaeological surveys before projects on public land take place. In some cases, those laws also extend to projects on private land if the project is supported by public funds.

These can involve research in historic records, site surveys (ground penetrating radar, aerial flyovers/photography, particularly infra red, and sometimes even satellite surveys) and test pits/trenches.

During construction of the interstate system there were some amazing archaeological sites uncovered, some that force the relocation of entire stretches of interstate because of their importance.


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: freakazoid on August 30, 2017, 05:22:49 AM
No, it's not the point.

It is.
Back then people wanted alcohol. It was illegal. People were willing to break the law to get them illegally.
People want artifacts. It is illegal. People are willing to break the law to get them illegally. People still illegally acquire them from people willing to dig them up illegally.

Now.
People would much rather follow the law and get things legally. Alcohol IS legal. People buy it legally as opposed to illegally.
Artifacts become legal. People would much rather follow the law and get things legally. It is now legal to buy the extra unneeded artifacts from the museum. People buy them legally as opposed to the person acquiring them illegally.


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: Mike Irwin on August 30, 2017, 07:03:08 AM
Here's a bit of modern archaeology for you.

Wonder who would want to buy this?

https://www.thelocal.de/20170830/largest-ever-evacuation-set-to-take-place-in-frankfurt-after-wwii-bomb-found


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: Mike Irwin on August 30, 2017, 07:04:43 AM
"People want artifacts. It is illegal."

As I've already explained, and which you've ignored, NO it is NOT.

Alcohol was TOTAL prohibition. That is NOT the same as archaeological relics today.

Understand the difference, because the situations are not the same.


Title: Re:
Post by: 230RN on August 30, 2017, 08:03:52 AM
....


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: BTR on August 30, 2017, 08:24:56 AM
I don't know the "best" thing to do, but I can think of a parallel.  I am a fossil collector.  Some scientists hate people like me, because they think fossils should only be collected or owned by them, even common things like shark teeth.

I view the private ownership of things like artifacts and fossils as helping to increase education and interest in the sciences.  I give fossil shark teeth to little kids, and they LOVE them!  Who knows if one might grow up to be a paleontologist?  Maybe the chance to own an artifact will create a similar love of studying history in others.... that is better than melting them down.


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: freakazoid on August 30, 2017, 03:37:35 PM
"But even more to the point, how do they know they've fully studied the artifacts?  How much information have we gained by reexamining long-since-found-looked-at-and-filed-away artifacts with advanced imaging, x-rays, carbon dating, etc.?  Imagine if Ramesses II had been simply sent off for cremation after an 1880s-technology exam, how much less we would know."

Let's see... 30+ thousand of these... with hundreds, if not thousands, more found on virtually every American archaeological site.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQMZoBz_XP8ZoNF0hH_JdStNK6U2jxzWq8rWHzDw3ZiOMrljLokMg)


vs...


(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/TUT-Ausstellung_FFM_2012_47_%287117819557%29.jpg/188px-TUT-Ausstellung_FFM_2012_47_%287117819557%29.jpg)


Which should be kept?

You figure it out.


"In the finds catalog, coins, knives, a tin ornament, a ring and a weight from the Viking Age or early Middle Ages have been placed in the column ôWeeded Outö.

Current research about weights and measures focusing on the Viking era is underway, ôsays Lena Holmquist, archaeologist at Stockholm University.

But one puzzle piece is gone"

So no, it's not just some rusty nails being thrown out.


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: freakazoid on August 30, 2017, 03:43:56 PM
"People want artifacts. It is illegal."

As I've already explained, and which you've ignored, NO it is NOT.

Alcohol was TOTAL prohibition. That is NOT the same as archaeological relics today.

Understand the difference, because the situations are not the same.

In Sweden?
So if it is not illegal, then what is the problem? What I said still holds true. People would much rather buy things legally. You provide a legal way for people to get something, you pretty much shut off the illegal means of getting things.


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: Amy Schumer on August 30, 2017, 03:46:39 PM
How about if the Museums and such sold the stuff they were going to destroy to collectors to further funding for legal archeology, to pay people to turn in their "finds" to museums.  I'll just point to "Sue" that sits (stands actually) in The Field Museum here in Chicago...



Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: Warren on August 30, 2017, 03:48:25 PM
There are likely people interested in this "junk" so grant entrepreneurs and artists concessions to see if they can make anything from this stuff.

I'm sure there are plenty of artists that would love to incorporate historical things like this into their work if they could get the stuff cheap enough. And entrepreneurs could do games, collectibles-by-subscription, educational materials, or for use in interior or exterior design and maybe other things.

So why waste it?


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: RoadKingLarry on August 30, 2017, 04:32:26 PM
I would hope that before the artifacts are destroyed that other museums and/or colleges and schools are given a chance to take them. While they may not be "worthy" of the big time they could still be valuable for use as study aids for schools.


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: Mike Irwin on August 31, 2017, 03:48:20 AM
"While they may not be "worthy" of the big time they could still be valuable for use as study aids for schools."

Hum... Elegant possible solution.


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: Mike Irwin on August 31, 2017, 03:52:31 AM
"In Sweden?
So if it is not illegal, then what is the problem? What I said still holds true. People would much rather buy things legally. You provide a legal way for people to get something, you pretty much shut off the illegal means of getting things."

Yes. Virtually every nation has laws regarding protection and theft of antiquities from archaeological sites.


"People would much rather buy things legally. You provide a legal way for people to get something, you pretty much shut off the illegal means of getting things."

Once again, cigarettes and alcohol. If what you say were actually true, which it's not, there wouldn't be a thriving black market trade in either item.



Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: tokugawa on August 31, 2017, 07:09:27 AM
Mike,

Just to clarify, your argument is as follows:
1. There exists an illegal market in artifacts
2. There exists a legal market in artifacts
3. There exists an oversupply in low-historical-value artifacts which need not be kept by museums or research institutions.
4. If those low-historical-value artifacts were sold on the legal market, the illegal market in artifacts would likewise grow, thereby putting at risk as-yet undiscovered high-historical-value artifacts by unscrupulous researchers and/or freelance mooks with metal detectors.

If so, I sort of see your point, but I'm not convinced..........  As it is, I don't see how selling off items of limited historical value would suddenly spur the illegal market.--- 

 You are correct- It won't.  Number 4 does not follow.    Competition lowers prices. Increasing supply lowers prices. Lowering prices reduces incentives to enter the market.

 This is very similar to the idiocy shown when African country's  make a big spectacle of burning giant piles of confiscated ivory, rather than issuing a use permit and selling it at or below the illegal trading value. At one stroke they had an opportunity to lower prices for illegal ivory, thus removing incentives for poaching, and also getting a chunk of money to help fund anti-poaching efforts. And the economic illiterates threw away the benefits to make a fancy fashionable eco statement.

  For example, if one could buy a certified genuine mine ball from a battlefield for a few dollars from a Museum, or the Park Service, what incentive remains for for a illegal seller to go digging them up , with very little profit and risk of prosecution?

  OT- On preview, why did a "barf" icon auto-insert after "African country" ,in my comment? I did NOT put it there. Someone is running some funny software or something- I will try to remove it. if ya'all don't see it, it worked.
 
 


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: cordex on August 31, 2017, 07:28:02 AM
You are correct- It won't.  Number 4 does not follow.    Competition lowers prices. Increasing supply lowers prices. Lowering prices reduces incentives to enter the market.
CIGARETTES!


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: BTR on August 31, 2017, 08:09:59 AM
Is private ownership of artifacts legitimate or should only the gov / scientists own artifacts?

That is the question.

I know what I think.


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: Amy Schumer on August 31, 2017, 08:35:15 AM

Once again, cigarettes and alcohol. If what you say were actually true, which it's not, there wouldn't be a thriving black market trade in either item.


Not quite the same.  The thriving black market in cigarettes and alcohol is because of taxes.  Cigarettes are now $12 a pack in Chicago.  They are $5-$6 in Indiana.  Same with booze.  Back when I worked at Airborne Express at Midway (station was located at 127th and Cicero, about 60 blocks south of the Airport), we had most of drivers hop over to Indiana to buy gas.  I also smoked back then, so I would have a driver pick me up a carton or two of smokes, because they was so much cheaper then Cook county or even were I live in Dupage county.     I always buy gas and booze when I'm in Indiana as opposed to Illinois.  I guess I've been a quasi-"Black Marketer" for a long time.  

But that the reason for the Black Market in things like "loosies" in NYC.  That why that Eric Gardner was killed/died.  And that's why there is a black market in those.  Insane tax policies.

Same here.  If there was a thriving legal market, then it would drive out the illegal market.  I will once again point to Sue. Discovered by amateurs and bought by the Field Museum.  Same here.  Think of how much "Good Stuff" could be purchased by Museums et al., if the sold off the "Bad Stuff" to collectors.  The collectors are going to collect.  

And if it were like legal hunting in Africa, then wouldn't be these problems. Legal hunting make Poaching impractical, because the animals become a local asset instead of a local liability.  (US importation laws are beyond stupid and do nothing to help either the African people and/or animals.)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQh-f1rBjx4




Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: tokugawa on August 31, 2017, 08:48:43 AM
And if it were like legal hunting in Africa, then wouldn't be these problems. Legal hunting make Poaching impractical, because the animals become a local asset instead of a local liability.  (US importation laws are beyond stupid and do nothing to help either the African people and/or animals.)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQh-f1rBjx4

 Ya think? I have seen antique arms collections where US Customs has pried off and destroyed 200 year old ivory sword hilts, old bronzes where they have pried of the ivory heads and hands, the musical instrument community is now in trepidation over instruments crossing borders, etc. Cultural Vandalism is what it is, under the guise of Eco-progress.
 


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: Mike Irwin on September 01, 2017, 03:40:29 AM
"And if it were like legal hunting in Africa, then wouldn't be these problems. Legal hunting make Poaching impractical, because the animals become a local asset instead of a local liability.  (US importation laws are beyond stupid and do nothing to help either the African people and/or animals.) "

Oh really?

There's legal hunting in Africa, and in the exact same places there's poaching going on for the same animals.

Your argument doesn't work because the people who want the commodity from the animal (ivory is the biggie) don't feel like going on a safari and playing Bush Bwana. They just want the commodity, and don't give a *expletive deleted*it how they get it.




"Not quite the same.  The thriving black market in cigarettes and alcohol is because of taxes.  Cigarettes are now $12 a pack in Chicago."

That's hyperparsing and niggling the concept, playing contortionist to "make" your untrue argument somehow true. Your argument is Open Market equals End of Illegal Activity!

That's crap and you know.


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: RoadKingLarry on September 01, 2017, 04:06:25 AM
"While they may not be "worthy" of the big time they could still be valuable for use as study aids for schools."

Hum... Elegant possible solution.


Be an excellent choice for all sorts of experimentation with testing methods for non-invasive up to full on destructive forensic analysis


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: Mike Irwin on September 01, 2017, 04:13:20 AM
And I'd be an absolute liar if I said that I didn't have a vision of the Swedish chef walking up to a school and throwing a big bag of surplus stuff on the principal's desk...

ER SKERBA DERBA DO! or whatever he used to say...


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: freakazoid on September 01, 2017, 06:49:01 AM
"And if it were like legal hunting in Africa, then wouldn't be these problems. Legal hunting make Poaching impractical, because the animals become a local asset instead of a local liability.  (US importation laws are beyond stupid and do nothing to help either the African people and/or animals.) "

Oh really?

There's legal hunting in Africa, and in the exact same places there's poaching going on for the same animals.

Your argument doesn't work because the people who want the commodity from the animal (ivory is the biggie) don't feel like going on a safari and playing Bush Bwana. They just want the commodity, and don't give a *expletive deleted*it how they get it.

No. What it does is give an incentive to protect the animals from poaching.



Quote
"Not quite the same.  The thriving black market in cigarettes and alcohol is because of taxes.  Cigarettes are now $12 a pack in Chicago."

That's hyperparsing and niggling the concept, playing contortionist to "make" your untrue argument somehow true. Your argument is Open Market equals End of Illegal Activity!

That's crap and you know.

No it's not.


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: MechAg94 on September 01, 2017, 07:54:36 AM
"And if it were like legal hunting in Africa, then wouldn't be these problems. Legal hunting make Poaching impractical, because the animals become a local asset instead of a local liability.  (US importation laws are beyond stupid and do nothing to help either the African people and/or animals.) "

Oh really?

There's legal hunting in Africa, and in the exact same places there's poaching going on for the same animals.

Your argument doesn't work because the people who want the commodity from the animal (ivory is the biggie) don't feel like going on a safari and playing Bush Bwana. They just want the commodity, and don't give a *expletive deleted*it how they get it.




"Not quite the same.  The thriving black market in cigarettes and alcohol is because of taxes.  Cigarettes are now $12 a pack in Chicago."

That's hyperparsing and niggling the concept, playing contortionist to "make" your untrue argument somehow true. Your argument is Open Market equals End of Illegal Activity!

That's crap and you know.
Every big game hunter and guide disagrees with you.  When Zimbabwe shut down hunting, the lost the funding for the game wardens and gangs of Somalis were coming in and slaughtering elephants.  Animals that are legally hunted often thrive because hunters and others have an incentive to maintain habitat and restrict poaching.  It works in the US and it has worked in Africa also.


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: MechAg94 on September 01, 2017, 07:57:26 AM
I was thinking the people destroying the artifacts could sell them with certificates/letters stating what they were and where they were found.  To some it would be like owning a CMP Garand.  Sure, not all the artifacts would be wanted, but many would be bought and the funds would help keep the legitimate researchers funded. 

I generally disagree with banning stuff.  There is usually a perfectly good market solution that would accomplish the same thing with much less overbearing govt regulation. 


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: cordex on September 01, 2017, 09:35:51 AM
That's hyperparsing and niggling the concept, playing contortionist to "make" your untrue argument somehow true. Your argument is Open Market equals End of Illegal Activity!

That's crap and you know.
Does "Closed Market equal End of Illegal Activity!!!!"?


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: HankB on September 01, 2017, 12:54:03 PM
Mike's argument wrt hunting & poaching is as much nonsense as his pro-destruction arguments for antiquities to keep them out of the hands of people other than government-approved archaeologists.

Properly run sport hunting in Africa gives animals legitimate value to the local people; by getting a cut of the license and trophy fees, they see tangible benefits - benefits they DON'T get from organized poaching rings. So they tend to see poachers as the enemy, and are less tolerant of their activities. This doesn't end 100% of poaching of course, but it sure cuts it down, as I've personally seen and heard in places like Zimbabwe and Zambia.

Destroying ancient artifacts because someone else might want other, more valuable artifacts? Absurd. I think someone used the term "Cultural Vandalism" - how apropos.

And it somehow seems like something you'd get from the Taliban, not modern, progressive Swedes.


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: agricola on September 01, 2017, 04:22:01 PM
Destroying or stealing antiquities (as in not publicizing the fact that you have found them and in what context) is a daft idea and anyone that promotes it is a moron.

To illustrate how moronic it is, in 1833, two and a bit miles from where I would grow up, a group of men building a road thought it would be easier to rob stone from a nearby tumulus than to haul it in.  They dug into the mound - called Bryn yr Ellyllon (Goblin's Hill) - and found what was later established to be the finest Bronze Age burial ever found in the UK.  The top half of the bones was covered in a gold mantle, with a scattering of amber beads and bronze strips in the rest of the tomb.  

They thought the best way to deal with this discovery was to cut the gold mantle - which has no parallel at all, in the entire world - into little bits, and (if local legend is to be believed) amused themselves by throwing the three-and-a-half-thousand year old amber beads into a fire; the bones and the rest of the grave are forever lost to us.  

It took later generations more than a hundred and fifty years to locate the various bits (they still do not have them all) and put the mantle back together.  The restored object is in the British Museum now, thankfully.

(http://www.britishmuseum.org/collectionimages/AN00020/AN00020023_001_l.jpg)

more here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/objects/okZT5JiCTn6lYFR0Gs9Tbg



 


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: BTR on September 13, 2017, 09:27:41 AM
I asked a friend who is an archaeologist about this article.  She was horrified and said "No professional archaeologist would destroy artifacts."

She said artifacts they did not need they would send to others who could use them.

Good to know this is not normal, at least in the USA.


Title: Re: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?
Post by: RevDisk on September 13, 2017, 10:14:29 AM
They thought the best way to deal with this discovery was to cut the gold mantle - which has no parallel at all, in the entire world - into little bits, and (if local legend is to be believed) amused themselves by throwing the three-and-a-half-thousand year old amber beads into a fire; the bones and the rest of the grave are forever lost to us.  

It took later generations more than a hundred and fifty years to locate the various bits (they still do not have them all) and put the mantle back together.  The restored object is in the British Museum now, thankfully.

It is a literal crime against humanity. Not just humanity that exists today, but every future humanity that will ever exist. Attempting to destroy priceless historical artifacts should be treated on par with genocide, as it is carried out generally for the same purposes. Starting with being an evil (insert swear word here) and going on to attempting to deny information to future generations. 


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