Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MillCreek on March 14, 2019, 10:01:28 AM
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https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/03/08/climate/light-bulb-efficiency.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage§ion=Climate%20and%20Environment
I think about 75% of the bulbs in our home are now LED; I have a few CFL and halogen bulbs that I am using up.
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Been changing out every incan and CFL to LEDS for the past 10 years. I think there is maybe two or three bulbs in the house that aren't LED now.
No only are they using a lot less power I have yet to have one go out on me in those 10 years.
Dinning room chandelier went from using 200w to 19w for same light plus it doesn't heat the room up now.
BTW: Hit a paywall in the article link
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All that means we don't need govt regulation or subsidies to transition to more efficient bulbs. Let the market take care of itself.
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Rooms that get 95% of the use in my humble abode (master bedroom/bath, living room, kitchen, and hall bath) are all 100% LED. I switched before the incandescent lamps failed for energy savings from both illumination efficiency and heat reduction. Plus I'm a huge technogeek and it was just a cool thing to do. What few incandescent lamps I have left are for things like garage door openers, porch lights, etc.
Brad
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On a side note
Our local power company LG&E (Louisville Gas & Elec) decided to start up a program where they would provide you with CFLs for free, all you had to do was sign up. Basically they would send you a box every month. Darn things were the crappiest POS I have ever seen as far as light bulbs are concerned. You were lucky if one lasted three months and they gave off a horrible green tint light and took ages to warm up.
They kept sending them month after month and finally stopped after a few years. I dumped the whole lot of them into one of those Home Depot bulb recycling bins
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I think I replaced my last incandescent about a month ago- a 300watt behemoth in my garage for a much better LED.
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My last incandescent, over the stove, burned put last week. I also had my first LED die - I think a capacitor went in it. It was installed in 2014, as I have been sharpying the date onto them.
I'll have to se how the LED lasts over the stove. If it doesn't, I'll probably buy a utility bulb to go in there.
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My last incandescent, over the stove, burned put last week. I also had my first LED die - I think a capacitor went in it. It was installed in 2014, as I have been sharpying the date onto them.
I'll have to se how the LED lasts over the stove. If it doesn't, I'll probably buy a utility bulb to go in there.
I put an LED in our range hood a while back. I was worried about heat, but it's been fine.
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All that means we don't need govt regulation or subsidies to transition to more efficient bulbs. Let the market take care of itself.
No, government must force you to change, or you'll never do the right thing.
But energy efficiency advocates worry that the Trump administration could slow the pace of this lighting revolution.
:rolleyes:
Clark Silcox, a lawyer for the National Electrical Manufacturers Association, a trade group that represents major lighting manufacturers like General Electric and Signify (formerly Philips Lighting), said that consumers were already switching to highly efficient LED bulbs on their own, pointing to industry data that shows LEDs outsold all other types of bulbs for the first time in 2017.
“The question now is: Does the Department of Energy accelerate that by putting on a ban,” Mr. Silcox said, even if it would “disrupt retail terribly.”
But Noah Horowitz, a senior scientist at the Natural Resources Defense Council, said “there’s no reason to move backward,” adding that the lighting industry has had years to prepare for the next phase of efficiency rules.
"No reason to move backward." Wow. So letting people decide for themselves is a retrograde step. What kind of future is this guy looking for?
I'm not sure I buy the notion that 44% of residential bulbs were CFL in 2016. That seems a little high. Then again, we have commercial customers still buying them, for some reason.
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I've been switching over to CFLs, and now LEDs on an as-needed basis.
Without doing rigoroous scientifical testing, I've noticed that CFLs do not last as long as hyped, so people tell me I have to get higher quality lamps. Yeah, well, OK, whatever.
And I have noticed that CFLs do not give adequate brightness if cold, according to the one I have on my back balcony.
OK, so that brings up three questions.
(1) If I replace my refrigerator light with a CFL, will the cold make it too dim? Most of the time, the door is opened for only a few seconds, probably not time enough for the lamp to warm up.
(2) What about CFLs in industrial cold sites, like restaurant or other industrial freezers? WIll they have to keep incandescents in those kinds of places?
(3) Haven't tried it, so I don't know, but do LEDs have the same problem (dim light) in cold environments?
Terry, 230RN
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^^^Our new(er) refrigerator and freezer have LED lighting, and they are quite bright in the cold environment. Way better lighting than the old incandescent bulbs.
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(1) If I replace my refrigerator light with a CFL, will the cold make it too dim? Most of the time, the door is opened for only a few seconds, probably not time enough for the lamp to warm up.
(2) What about CFLs in industrial cold sites, like restaurant or other industrial freezers? WIll they have to keep incandescents in those kinds of places?
(3) Haven't tried it, so I don't know, but do LEDs have the same problem (dim light) in cold environments?
Terry, 230RN
1) Yes, a CFL would not have time to warm up.
2) Not sure but see #1
3) No, LEDs do just fine in the cold without that annoying warm up period that CFLs require
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OK, thanks, both.
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To elaborate on WLJ's post...
CFL lamps have a warm up time just like old-school fluorescent tubes. They are the same general technology, just shrunk and spiraled. Cold cathode = dim lamp (if it lights at all). The luminosity increases as the cathode warms to operating temp.
LED lamps, on the other hand, like the cold. They are, for all intents and purposes, a circuit board that just happens to emit visible light. The colder they are, the better (in general). They also ramp to full brightness instantly because there is no cathode to warm. Current flow = light at full intensity. The inside of a refrigerator or freezer is an LED lamp's best friend. Cold and relatively stable.
Also of note... Fluorescent lamps need high initial voltage to set the arc, resulting in cathode erosion every time they are turned on. This means fluorescent lamps, both standard and CFL, have an inherent number of start cycles before they die. LED lamps suffer no such limitation.
Brad
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I've been switching over to CFLs, and now LEDs on an as-needed basis.
Without doing rigoroous scientifical testing, I've noticed that CFLs do not last as long as hyped, so people tell me I have to get higher quality lamps. Yeah, well, OK, whatever.
Also true of LED bulbs.
And I have noticed that CFLs do not give adequate brightness if cold, according to the one I have on my back balcony.
(3) Haven't tried it, so I don't know, but do LEDs have the same problem (dim light) in cold environments?
I replaced the front and back porch CFLs with LEDs, and they've been absolutely fine, even the many-degrees-below-zero weather we've had this past winter.
(1) If I replace my refrigerator light with a CFL, will the cold make it too dim? Most of the time, the door is opened for only a few seconds, probably not time enough for the lamp to warm up.
Dunno, but I wouldn't do that anyway. Incandescent or LED.
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I have maybe 8 incandescents left in the house, in rooms/fixtures that are never on, a halogen desk lamp, and 3 CFLs.
I also have some tube fluorescents in the basement that I'll eventually change out.
I also put under cabinet florescence in the kitchen a couple years ago. I wanted to go LED, but the cost was unbelievably prohibitive
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
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While LEDs do prefer cold weather, they are not invulnerable to heat, especially if completely surrounded by a lens or globe.
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I've got four halogens in a decorative fixture in the main bathroom, and three in an outdoor motion sensing light that is hard to reach using a 24 foot ladder. Otherwise we have all LED lamps and fixtures. We've only had one fail so far in the ten years or so since we started using them.
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I had a Chinese 100 watt equiv. LED fail last year. It started blinking, then made a pop, and it was done.
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Cold cathode = dim lamp (if it lights at all).
Unless, of course, it's a cold cathode light. =)
https://www.amazon.com/TCP-8TF08CL-8-watt-Cathode-2700-Kelvin/dp/B001V2G3Y8/ref=sr_1_28_sspa?keywords=cold+cathode+light&qid=1552625830&s=gateway&sr=8-28-spons&psc=1
The inside of a refrigerator or freezer is an LED lamp's best friend. Cold and relatively stable.
I guess that's true for your bog-standard, screw-in LED bulbs, like the one in my fridge. I'm given to understand that the condensation in commercial fridge and freezer cases is no friend to the LED strips they've started mounting in the doors. Not that it can't be done. It just has to be done right.
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(1) If I replace my refrigerator light with a CFL, will the cold make it too dim? Most of the time, the door is opened for only a few seconds, probably not time enough for the lamp to warm up.
(2) What about CFLs in industrial cold sites, like restaurant or other industrial freezers? WIll they have to keep incandescents in those kinds of places?
Not a CFL, but this is one kind of fluorescent light made for freezers/fridges.
https://www.atlantalightbulbs.com/light-bulbs/fluorescent-lamps-linear/fluorescent-linear-t8-over-48-inch/f70t8-841/
There are also high-output fluorescent tubes for use in outdoor signs, or for under awnings and canopies. They are higher-wattage bulbs, and have to be run by high-output ballasts. I don't recall the exact figures, but the ballasts are rated for something like 20 or 30 degrees below 0.
I haven't run across any high-output CFLs, but I can only assume someone has tried it.
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(1) If I replace my refrigerator light with a CFL, will the cold make it too dim? Most of the time, the door is opened for only a few seconds, probably not time enough for the lamp to warm up.
(2) What about CFLs in industrial cold sites, like restaurant or other industrial freezers? WIll they have to keep incandescents in those kinds of places?
(3) Haven't tried it, so I don't know, but do LEDs have the same problem (dim light) in cold environments?
1. Probably. Fast on and off is also bad for CFL an FL in general.
2. Industrial cold sites generally compensate by never turning their FLs off. Or using non-FL lighting. There are exemptions in legislation for special duty lighting. Metal halide is also common.
3. Nope. FL works by exciting gases, which works less well in the cold until the gas heats up. LED works by semiconductor action, which is both tiny and fast. Warmup time is in the nanoseconds. The AC-DC converter, if present, takes longer to "warm up", probably a couple cycles of 60hz current. Like 1/30th of a second.
Summary: if you need to replace your fridge build, go LED. It gives zero shits about cycles compared to incandescent, much less CFL.
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LED works by semiconductor action, which is both tiny and fast. Warmup time is in the nanoseconds. The AC-DC converter, if present, takes longer to "warm up", probably a couple cycles of 60hz current. Like 1/30th of a second.
Some LEDs do have a noticeable start-up time. At work, we have a display of an LED replacement for HO fluorescent tubes. A lot of customers hit the switch to turn it on, and then give up and shut it off before it's had time to start up. I've also seen a high-wattage LED bulb, the type you'd use to replace a metal halide lamp - it came on right away, but after about a half-second, the second array of LEDs popped on.
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Some LEDs do have a noticeable start-up time. At work, we have a display of an LED replacement for HO fluorescent tubes. A lot of customers hit the switch to turn it on, and then give up and shut it off before it's had time to start up. I've also seen a high-wattage LED bulb, the type you'd use to replace a metal halide lamp - it came on right away, but after about a half-second, the second array of LEDs popped on.
The momentary pause while LED driver circuits energize is a different critter than the warm up times on fluorescent lamps. Once past the few tenths of a second it takes for the driver to energize, LED lamps light at full brightness (if the drivers are taking longer to energize, something is wrong or it's a really crappy design). Fluorescent lamps take anywhere from many seconds to several minutes to get up to full brightness.
Brad
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The momentary pause while LED driver circuits energize is a different critter than the warm up times on fluorescent lamps. Once past the few tenths of a second it takes for the driver to energize, LED lamps light at full brightness (if the drivers are taking longer to energize, something is wrong or it's a really crappy design). Fluorescent lamps take anywhere from many seconds to several minutes to get up to full brightness.
Brad
The ones I was talking about require a little more than a few tenths of a second. That sign tube takes, just by a rough guess, a second-and-a-half. Why it's designed that way, I don't know. I don't suppose it matters, really.
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"HO fluorescent tubes."
How DARE you look down on their chosen lifestyle!
Home and Office?
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High-output. They're brighter, but the main selling point is that you can run them in cold temperatures.
Come to think of it, since they're used in signs, you can probably find a lot of them just hanging out on the street at night, trying to get your attention, hoping to part you from your money.
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High-output. They're brighter, but the main selling point is that you can run them in cold temperatures.
Cold-er, anyway. At sub 40 def F temps they still take a fair bit to warm up. I just replaced a bunch of HO lamps in Dad's shop with LED retrofit tubes for that very reason (and the fact that they live in the boonies and 8' lamps are a PITA to haul even across town, much less an hour away over bumpy ranch roads).
Brad
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The ones I was talking about require a little more than a few tenths of a second. That sign tube takes, just by a rough guess, a second-and-a-half. Why it's designed that way, I don't know. I don't suppose it matters, really.
Some of the big high-wattage commercial drivers do take a touch longer to energize, especially if they are driving a giant array of LEDs. Takes a bit for them to reach the proper forward voltage.
Brad
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Cold-er, anyway. At sub 40 def F temps they still take a fair bit to warm up. I just replaced a bunch of HO lamps in Dad's shop with LED retrofit tubes for that very reason (and the fact that they live in the boonies and 8' lamps are a PITA to haul even across town, much less an hour away over bumpy ranch roads).
Brad
Just going by memory, I think -20 and -30 are the temps I've seen listed on ballasts. I don't think I've seen anything lower than that. Maybe they have lower-temp ballasts in markets farther north.
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I've got a CFL in wall sconce beside my front door. It's been there for probably 6 years at this point. Only reason I've not changed it out for an LED is because it's such a pain in the butt to get to because of the hedge and the fixture itself isn't designed to make bulb changes easy.
When it's sub freezing out it takes a good 3 to 5 minutes to come up to full power where the post light at the end of the walk, which is an LED, comes on full brightness immediately when the sensor triggers it.
A couple of years ago, right after I got Seren, I put a new LED fixture in the back yard. It has two spotlight bulbs on a motion sensor. When it gets dark it comes on at half power; when motion triggers it it comes on at full power.
Provides security without blasting out my neighbors.