Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: makattak on April 15, 2019, 02:00:12 PM
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As in THE Notre Dame, not the Indiana one:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47941794
https://www.mlive.com/news/2019/04/fire-officials-prepare-major-operation-as-notre-dame-cathedral-burns-in-paris.html
(https://www.mlive.com/resizer/0hIyp-EdwjT03e2KMItn2ALywCQ=/600x0/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-advancelocal.s3.amazonaws.com/public/3RH4VEDXRNAWXLSBRBMSKZXPYI.jpg)
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That distresses me to no end.
I guess it proves I'm a terrible person that the first thing to cross my mind when I saw this was that there are a lot of Muslims in Paris.
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That distresses me to no end.
I guess it proves I'm a terrible person that the first thing to cross my mind when I saw this was that there are a lot of Muslims in Paris.
The first thing I thought of was work related, there is a lot of scaffolding around it. Renovations causing more damage, it isn't a new phenomenon.
The second was I hope Quasimodo was able to get out of the bell tower. ;)
bob
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https://twitter.com/patrickgaley/status/1117848909877895171/video/1
This is video of the spire falling amidst the flames.
And, Hawkmoon, you're not the only one that thought occurred to, but early reports are pointing to a possible issue with the current restoration/construction that is going on.
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Damn. I would have liked to have see that cathedral.
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Damn. I would have liked to have see that cathedral.
The fire appears to be getting under control and the front/bell towers seem untouched. (Mostly, I'm sure there is smoke damage).
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That distresses me to no end.
I guess it proves I'm a terrible person that the first thing to cross my mind when I saw this was that there are a lot of Muslims in Paris.
My first thought too, though it's quite possible it was a construction accident.
On the other hand, I was watching Fox - Neil Cavuto - and every time his correspondent in Paris tried to mention that there were a lot of anti-Christian incidents in the past few months in France, including the torching of a 17th century church - he cut him off. Finally killing the feed entirely.
Seems there are Some Things That Must Not Be Considered.
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This.
I read there were 10 other churches damaged this month, already.
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When 900 years old you are, look as good you will not.
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Not endorsing, not condemning, not anything. I'm just sourcing per Triphammer's post above.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1102958/christian-persecution-france-catholic-church-christianity-religion-edouard-phillipe-isis
(Very ad-heavy.)
At least 10 incidents of vandalism and desecration of Catholic churches have been reported across the Channel since the beginning of February. French Roman-Catholic newspaper La Croix International reported how the attacks on churches took place across France.
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I had the opportunity to visit Paris when I was a young man.
It was quite lovely, full of Parisians and amazing historical architecture.
Wish my memories were better.
This is a real loss of an architectural as well as symbolic treasure.
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I'm sticking with the accident theory until proven otherwise. Were the other churches on that list undergoing massive renovations? *shrug* As much as you want to blame someone, especially for something like this, sometimes bad *expletive deleted*it just happens for no good reason.
Anyway, this is what I wrote on FB:
My thoughts on the historic event of the day: As much as the catastrophic fire in Paris marks a great loss, it is also a mere moment in history and (hopefully) a mere moment for the evolution of a historic building.
We forget, in this time when preservation of historic landmarks is considered paramount, that these buildings and monuments underwent massive changes (and often great tragedies) throughout history. A great part of the historic value of these places is not that they have remained static since the time of their building, but that they reflect both the time in which they were created and all the changes that history has marked them with.
Today, Notre Dame has burned. Tomorrow, the ashes will be cleared, what is left will be evaluated, and (hopefully) Notre Dame will rise again, blending what is left of it's past along with the reflection of a new era in it's long history.
While I was watching the news I also spent sometime reading up on the history of the building in question. It's been through a lot, but between what had been removed for construction and what is left, I can see the possibility that in two or three hundred years, this will be yet another significant point in the ongoing history of a great building.
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I was there twice in the 1980s. Breathtaking
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
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As of 11:00 p.m. reports are that the fire is under control and that the majority of the [stone] structure will survive. The roof can be rebuilt ... and, in fact, was half rebuilt following WW2, I believe. The spire that collapsed had been completely replaced once before, so one hopes that drawings exist from which it can be rebuilt again.
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Correction -- the roof was half rebuilt in the 19th century, not after WW2.
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Saw a picture of the insides on Facebook and it looks like it's not that bad. Hopefully overall there isn't much damage and historical items not lost.
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Saw a picture of the insides on Facebook and it looks like it's not that bad. Hopefully overall there isn't much damage and historical items not lost.
The good news is that the "ceiling" that we see from the interior is a stone vault supported by stone arches. The roof that burned was just the roof that kept the rain out. It appears that the stone vault collapsed at the transept, which is where the spire collapsed so that's not a big surprise.
I read one report that said all three of those huge, beautiful rose stained glass windows were destroyed by the heat. They will be difficult to replace and impossible to replicate accurately.
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I'm sticking with the accident theory until proven otherwise. Were the other churches on that list undergoing massive renovations? *shrug* As much as you want to blame someone, especially for something like this, sometimes bad *expletive deleted*it just happens for no good reason.
There's no reason people shouldn't discuss the possibility of arson, or even terroristic arson. It doesn't mean they need someone to blame. It just means that sometimes bad stuff happens because Islam. Or because Yellow Vests. Or because Trump. Or whatever.
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Like Mike, I got to see it in the late 1980's. Just a stunning structure. Like Ron, I wish my memory (of the tour) were better.
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Saw an acquaintance on FB posted that this is a tragic and historic loss, and went on to say that with all of the suffering in the world, the building should be scraped and not rebuilt, as the money should be taken from the church by our government and used to help people. Didn't realize that we here in US had the ability to seize money from a church on the other side of the world and use it to, I don't know, pay for daycare for all of the families sneaking into the country. I guess communism has no boundaries.
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Saw an acquaintance on FB posted that this is a tragic and historic loss, and went on to say that with all of the suffering in the world, the building should be scraped and not rebuilt, as the money should be taken from the church by our government and used to help people. Didn't realize that we here in US had the ability to seize money from a church on the other side of the world and use it to, I don't know, pay for daycare for all of the families sneaking into the country. I guess communism has no boundaries.
Well, that is the goal.
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I read one report that said all three of those huge, beautiful rose stained glass windows were destroyed by the heat. They will be difficult to replace and impossible to replicate accurately.
According to this they survived
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6926807/Devastating-aftermath-Notre-Dame-inferno-leaves-world-mourning.html
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There's no reason people shouldn't discuss the possibility of arson, or even terroristic arson. It doesn't mean they need someone to blame. It just means that sometimes bad stuff happens because Islam. Or because Yellow Vests. Or because Trump. Or whatever.
Regardless of the cause, the fire is being seen as many as symbolic of the decline of the west, by both defenders and enemies of the west.
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Regardless of the cause, the fire is being seen as many as symbolic of the decline of the west, by both defenders and enemies of the west.
What are they going to say when it has been completely restored and there's a massive celebration to commemorate the re-opening?
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What are they going to say when it has been completely restored and there's a massive celebration to commemorate the re-opening?
That all that money has been wasted, when it could have been spent on the homeless.
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It's well known that religion interferes with communism.
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
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I’m sure the construction workers will approve of the new prayer room set aside for them as they build a new beautiful
spire minaret.
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What a mess: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6926807/Devastating-aftermath-Notre-Dame-inferno-leaves-world-mourning.html
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/04/16/17/12352042-6926807-image-m-245_1555431622968.jpg)
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/04/16/17/12352050-6926807-image-a-225_1555430704645.jpg)
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It's well known that religion interferes with communism.
Communism's high priests (called kommisars, Chairmen, Dear Leaders, or whatever) regard people who follow any other religion as heretics to be either brainwashed re-educated or killed.
Back to Notre Dame . . . .
As long as we still don't know the cause of the fire, speculation about a deliberate origin is every bit as valid as speculation about accidental origin.
And if you're one of the fire investigators, it would be irresponsible to rule out anything this early. So right now, everything from a carelessly discarded cigarette to an islamofascist plot is - and should! - still be on the table.
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Communism's high priests (called kommisars, Chairmen, Dear Leaders, or whatever) regard people who follow any other religion as heretics to be either brainwashed re-educated or killed.
Back to Notre Dame . . . .
As long as we still don't know the cause of the fire, speculation about a deliberate origin is every bit as valid as speculation about accidental origin.
And if you're one of the fire investigators, it would be irresponsible to rule out anything this early. So right now, everything from a carelessly discarded cigarette to an islamofascist plot is - and should! - still be on the table.
Reports are that there was an initial alarm, firefighters responded and couldn't find any fire so they left, then there was a second alarm a half hour later, by which time the fire was already pretty much out of control. The construction is that there's a stone vault as the ceiling in the sanctuary, then a wooden roof structure covered with sheet lead roofing above the vault, creating an attic. Since the main structure is all stone and can't burn, more than likely the fire originated in the attic space above the vault. It may have started (and the progress of the fire based on photos supports this) in the area where the transept (the two short arms of the cross floor plan) intersects the nave and chancel (the long arms of the cross). The spire, which was under restoration, is (was) located above this intersection.
So the fire could have been caused accidentally by one of the workers. Or it could have been started deliberately by someone who gained access to the scaffolding, possibly after the workers had left for the day.
Stay tuned. [popcorn]
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So far, decadent billionaire businessmen have pledged 510 million Euros ($576 million) toward the reconstruction of Notre Dame. Although the structure is owned by the French government, it nonetheless functions as a Roman Catholic cathedral. The head of the Roman Catholic Church, the Pope, has pledged ... an historical consultant.
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Trump should pledge to send Pelosi
to replace Quasimodo
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Trump should pledge to send Pelosi to
replace Quasimodo
Wouldn't she make a better Djali?
bob
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Pelosi, Pelosi......that name rings a bell........
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Wouldn't she make a better Djali?
bob
AOC
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From Sean Spicier on Twitter:
"Nothing to worry about, folk! Probably just some people doing something at Notre Dame"
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There's been a long-running dispute between the Catholic Church and the governments of France about who is responsible for upkeep at Notre Dame.
The government say the Catholic Church, because, well, it's a church, and the church says the governments of France, because, well, France owns it.
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I didn't think of it this way before, but some of the timbers that were used in the roof were saplings when Charlemagne was Holy Roman Emperor in the 800s.
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Pelosi, Pelosi......that name rings a bell........
<groaaaaan>
But :D
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How Christian is France?
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How Christian is France?
Less and less Every. Damn. Day. :old:
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More hate from the loving compassionate left
But for some people in France, Notre Dame has also served as a deep-seated symbol of resentment, a monument to a deeply flawed institution and an idealized Christian European France that arguably never existed in the first place. “The building was so overburdened with meaning that its burning feels like an act of liberation,” says Patricio del Real, an architecture historian at Harvard University. If nothing else, the cathedral has been viewed by some as a stodgy reminder of “the old city — the embodiment of the Paris of stone and faith — just as the Eiffel Tower exemplifies the Paris of modernity, joie de vivre and change,” Michael Kimmelmann wrote for the New York Times. (Rolling Stone)
Another historian quoted in the piece, the University of Toronto's John Harwood, says it would be a mistake to view the building as little more than a Paris tourist attraction, according to Rolling Stone.
“It’s literally a political monument," he said. "All cathedrals are.”
'Nonsense': Rolling Stone Magazine Ripped For Sharing This Take on the Notre Dame Fire
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/cortneyobrien/2019/04/17/rolling-stone-magazine-ripped-for-this-take-on-the-notre-dame-fire-n2544919
What can you say other than :facepalm:
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“The building was so overburdened with meaning that its burning feels like an act of liberation,” says Patricio del Real, an architecture historian at Harvard University.
As accustomed as I am to the claptrap that emanates from Ivy League (especially, but not only) bastions of "higher learning," this statement -- coming from a purported architectural historian -- nonetheless surprised me. As an architect with several years of study in the history or art and architecture, I simply can't imagine any legitimate architectural historian making such a statement, or even harboring such a thought.
Western society truly is doomed.
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If nothing else, the cathedral has been viewed by some as a stodgy reminder of “the old city — the embodiment of the Paris of stone and faith — just as the Eiffel Tower exemplifies the Paris of modernity, joie de vivre and change,” Michael Kimmelmann wrote for the New York Times. (Rolling Stone)
I've never been to Paris, but I have this crazy idea the modern "joie" is not all that joie-ful.
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The Eiffel Tower was constructed between 1887 and 1889. Considering that there is nobody -- in Paris or anywhere else -- who was alive when it was built, I fail to see how it could in any way be considered exemplary of "modernity."
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Liberation from what?
Can she show me on the dolly where the mean cathedral hurt her?
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As accustomed as I am to the claptrap that emanates from Ivy League (especially, but not only) bastions of "higher learning," this statement -- coming from a purported architectural historian -- nonetheless surprised me. As an architect with several years of study in the history or art and architecture, I simply can't imagine any legitimate architectural historian making such a statement, or even harboring such a thought.
Western society truly is doomed.
Purging the scholar class is one of the few things that communism gets right.
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Paul Joseph Watson
https://www.minds.com/PaulJosephWatson
Apr 17, 2019, 10:35:11 AM
French journalist Maxime Lepante warns that France’s history is “in the process of burning down” as a result of two churches being vandalized every day and that political and religious leaders don’t “give a f*ck.”
https://summit.news/2019/04/17/french-journalist-two-churches-in-france-are-vandalized-every-day-and-no-one-gives-a-fck/
Newly released France 2018 stats.
Anti-Christian attacks: 1063.
Anti-Jewish attacks: 541 (an increase of 74 per cent).
Anti-Muslim attacks: 100 (Lowest in 9 years).
https://summit.news/2019/04/15/france-attacks-against-jews-christians-continue-to-rise/
#muslim #France #churches #fire #PaulJosephWatson
“Submit to Islam”: South Carolina Church Vandalized With Islamic-Themed Graffiti
https://summit.news/2019/04/16/submit-to-islam-south-carolina-church-vandalized-with-islamic-themed-graffiti/
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Why is this thread stickied? ???
The Eiffel Tower was constructed between 1887 and 1889. Considering that there is nobody -- in Paris or anywhere else -- who was alive when it was built, I fail to see how it could in any way be considered exemplary of "modernity."
In Western history, the Modern period is usually thought to begin around 1500, give or take a century. Of course, there are many other definitions of "modern."
https://www.britannica.com/art/Modernism-art
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Interesting. Man stopped from bringing gas and lighters into St Patricks Cathedral. Not releasing his name.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/st-patricks-cathedral-new-york-city
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Interesting. Man stopped from bringing gas and lighters into St Patricks Cathedral. Not releasing his name.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/st-patricks-cathedral-new-york-city
NY Post did:
https://nypost.com/2019/04/17/man-arrested-after-walking-into-st-patricks-cathedral-with-gas-cans/
Marc Lamparello, 37, of New Jersey, entered the historic Midtown church about 8 p.m. with the flammable paraphernalia
Lamparello is a CUNY student seeking his Ph.D. in philosophy, and has done stints as an adjunct lecturer at Lehman College, a police source said.
What's the over/under on his political leanings?
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NY Post did:
https://nypost.com/2019/04/17/man-arrested-after-walking-into-st-patricks-cathedral-with-gas-cans/
What's the over/under on his political leanings?
No bet.
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NY Post did:
https://nypost.com/2019/04/17/man-arrested-after-walking-into-st-patricks-cathedral-with-gas-cans/
What's the over/under on his political leanings?
Over/under? Probably a .410.
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It was described as an accident by the media before the fire was even extinguished.
The heuristic that I apply to all media stories tells me that it was most likely arson committed by a Muslim based upon the immediate media narrative.
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It was described as an accident by the media before the fire was even extinguished.
The heuristic that I apply to all media stories tells me that it was most likely arson committed by a Muslim based upon the immediate media narrative.
Seeing the scaffolding, I accepted that an accident was quite possible.
The absolute discounting and unwillingness to even accept the possibility that it was an act of desecration makes me believe that to be more and more likely.
It's like these people have to pretend the world isn't what it is. They MUST defend their fantasy.
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Really AP? Really?
https://twitter.com/JGreenDC/status/1119233586698362880?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
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Really AP? Really?
https://twitter.com/JGreenDC/status/1119233586698362880?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
The leftist coalition hates Heritage Europeans and Americans.
They fling poo at us every chance they get.
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Even though the "experts" are still not allowed to enter the building because it's not considered to be stable, the "experts" have now concluded that the fire was caused by a short circuit.
I find that incredibly difficult to comprehend. I don't know what kind of electrical stuff they had in the attic space above the stone vaults and below the roof, but I doubt it would be anything that would cause a fire in the event of a short circuit. They apparently had a fire alarm/detection system. Those operate on low voltage -- 12 or 24 volts. And, unless it was a system as old as the building itself, a fire/smoke detection system would have self-monitoring, so if a short circuit occurred, the system would have initiated a trouble alert.
France, like all of Europe, uses 220-volt electric for lighting and convenience power. 220 volts can make a decent spark, or generate some heat if it shorts. But what was in the attic that could burn? Those roof timbers were so big that they say there are no trees anywhere in Europe large enough to replace them. It takes a LOT of heat to start a timber that big to burning. Thank about your fireplace, or a campfire. Take a log six inches in diameter at 40 or 50 degrees ambient temperature, with the bark scraped off it, and try to light it using a match. Or a Zippo. Not going to happen.
One article speculated that the fire started as a result of a malfunction in an elevator. Since the point of origin was near the intersection of the transept and the nave, there are no elevators there serving the building. There was an elevator of some kind in the scaffolding, for access to the spire they were restoring. That was outdoors, above the (metal) roof, and the scaffolding was steel (except for the plank walkways, I assume). I don't see how a short in the elevator could have started a fire in the attic.
At this point, there isn't enough information to determine how the fire started. IMHO there certainly isn't enough information to label it an act of terrorism ... but there also certainly isn't enough information to determine that it WASN'T an act of terrorism.
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Even though the "experts" are still not allowed to enter the building because it's not considered to be stable, the "experts" have now concluded that the fire was caused by a short circuit.
I find that incredibly difficult to comprehend. I don't know what kind of electrical stuff they had in the attic space above the stone vaults and below the roof, but I doubt it would be anything that would cause a fire in the event of a short circuit.
Wiring for the Lights perhaps.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.voyagesphotosmanu.com%2FComplet%2Fimages%2Fnotre_dame_by_night_gr.jpg&hash=ef5e751b67d88af2863ff6ddbe286f00358342d2)
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The more the left hyperventilated chanting “Russia Russia Russia” the less I believed any of what they said.
This is taking on the same pattern.
They are creating a narrative through saturation propaganda.
We’ll never know what happened so I’m assuming the worse.
Muslim desecration of ancient Christian symbol.
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About 4 years ago an Art Professor do a laser scan of Notre Dame and the files are still out there and should be able to help in the restoration.
https://www.cnn.com/style/article/notre-dame-andrew-tallon-laser-scan-trnd/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/style/article/notre-dame-andrew-tallon-laser-scan-trnd/index.html)
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About 4 years ago an Art Professor do a laser scan of Notre Dame and the files are still out there and should be able to help in the restoration.
https://www.cnn.com/style/article/notre-dame-andrew-tallon-laser-scan-trnd/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/style/article/notre-dame-andrew-tallon-laser-scan-trnd/index.html)
Except that Professor Tallon died, and it seems nobody knows where the digital files are located. :facepalm:
Plus that idiot, Macron, is already making noises about not "restoring" it, but making it newer and better. (https://forum.m1911.org/images/smilies/banghead.gif) (https://forum.m1911.org/images/smilies/barf.gif)
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How and the heck can you misplace those point cloud files? ???
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They were on Hillary's server.
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They were on Hillary's server.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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They were on Hillary's server.
Just ask the Chinese, then. I'm sure they have copies.
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"Tourst mecca Notre Dame also revered as place of worship."
Priceless.
Thanks, WLJ.
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I don't think the birtherizing of the arson/terrorism question tells us anything about what happened to Notre Dame. It is just typical left-think. Blaming brown people is worse than any terrorist act a brown man might commit, and they've told us so a hundred times. Every terrorist act is followed immediately with ominous talk about how horrifying it would be if there were any backlash against Brown Man Good. And it would be horrifying. Just, ya know, let's finish burying the victims before we get all down in the mouth about what some racist might do.
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It appears the yellow vests are rioting because people donated to rebuilding Notre Dame, and didn't give their money to the yellow vests.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/france-yellow-vest-protest-notre-dame
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Who's handling their PR?
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Who's handling their PR?
AOC?
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AOC?
:rofl:
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AOC?
Beat me to it.
But I'm not sure she could find her ass even if you gave her a compass and flashlight let alone France.
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https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2019/04/20/competition-to-redesign-notre-dame-cathedral-an-extraordinary-opportunity-for-wokeness/
They're going to top Notre Dame with the Monument for Climate Justice and RaceGenderqueer Equality featuring a man having an abortion.
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https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2019/04/20/competition-to-redesign-notre-dame-cathedral-an-extraordinary-opportunity-for-wokeness/
I just came in to post that. I suppose this truly is the end of Notre Dame then. There's no way a "contest" will produce anything that pays tribute to it, and I guess it was just to old white guy to say, "Lets try to restore the original building". Sad.
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"Churchy McChurcherson"
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I just came in to post that. I suppose this truly is the end of Notre Dame then. There's no way a "contest" will produce anything that pays tribute to it, and I guess it was just to old white guy to say, "Lets try to restore the original building". Sad.
Is Notre Dame privately owned by the Catholic Church? If so, they can tell everyone to pound ash.
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Is Notre Dame privately owned by the Catholic Church? If so, they can tell everyone to pound ash.
My understanding is that it's owned by the French Gov.
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I just came in to post that. I suppose this truly is the end of Notre Dame then. There's no way a "contest" will produce anything that pays tribute to it, and I guess it was just to old white guy to say, "Lets try to restore the original building". Sad.
I think they should add a minaret. As a tribute to all the Muslims who didn't set the fire. :facepalm:
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(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRKPjQYryV4I5N7egfNsZc_qtUzzkIFG8IiHL19XcIfU2KoMq5K)
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I don't think a contest implies anything untoward. Won't it just be more or less a competitive bidding process? Each firm tries to show how they can do it better, cheaper, with less inconvenience to traffic, etc? That doesn't mean the traditional design is up in the air, does it?
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Unfortunately, that idiot, Macron, is talking not about restoring Notre Dame, but about making it "better." I'm afraid in this instance "contest" means just what it implies -- a competition to see who can devise the ugliest, most inappropriate design for the roof and the spire. That's who they'll choose.
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I understand the historical context, but the history is gone. Even if they put it back exactly as it was it'll be a reproduction, not the historic building. The historic roof and spire are gone. G.O.N.E.
So who gives a damn what a government you aren't a subject of does to a church of a religion you aren't a member of?
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AOC?
Almost occasionally conscious
Alexandria Occasional Cortex
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"I understand the historical context, but the history is gone."
Balderdash.
Much of what was destroyed in the fire was itself replacements of original materials.
Many of the beams supporting the roof that burned were later replacements for beams that had rotted or become damaged.
The spire that was destroyed? An 1840s creation by Viollet-le-Duc, which replaced... nothing. There had never been a spire at that location until then.
The organ? It's been replaced many times over the centuries. The original organ was small and installed in the late 1300s, over 100 years after the cathedral was completed. That organ was replaced with a larger one in the 1400s, which itself was replaced in the 1730s. The current organ, which used pieces of the 1730s organ, was installed as part of Viollet-le-Duc's restoration and dedicated in 1868. That organ itself has been modified many times since.
The stained glass? Much of it was damaged by the fire, but survived and can be restored. But not all of it is original, either. The west rose window, which was created in the mid 1200s, was entirely removed and an entirely new window installed, again as part of Viollet-le-Duc's restoration work.
The south rose was damaged multiple times over the centuries and was also extensively rebuilt.
Much of the rest of the stained glass in the cathedral was installed over a period of centuries, including some in the 20th century.
Yes, much of the interior vaulting was damaged or destroyed, but the walls and the bell towers survived relatively unharmed. Those ARE original to the structure, so your claim that the history of Notre Dame is simply wrong.
Cathedrals aren't one and done, built and remaining in a static state. Most continue to evolve for the simple reason that time is not kind.
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I understand the historical context, but the history is gone. Even if they put it back exactly as it was it'll be a reproduction, not the historic building. The historic roof and spire are gone. G.O.N.E.
So who gives a damn what a government you aren't a subject of does to a church of a religion you aren't a member of?
I'm an architect who has worked on restoration of historic buildings. The Cathedral of Notre Dame is a UNESCO World Heritage Site. When restoring historic buildings, the goal is to reproduce the design so that people can appreciate it for what it was. Not "Disneyland" reproduction, but restoration as accurately as possible. The Cathedral of Notre Dame is possibly THE most architecturally significant Gothic structures in the world. It was the cathedral that started the entire Gothic style, leading to other great cathedrals such as Amiens, Cologne, Chartres, Reims, and Milan (among others).
That's why I give a damn. Because it matters.
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Chartres...
Chartres was built in the late Romanesque style, not Gothic.
Chartres' north spire was destroyed in the 1500s and rebuilt in a late Gothic style, which is why the facade is unbalanced.
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My understanding is that it's owned by the French Gov.
Notre Dame is owned by the French government, but the Catholic Church has a perpetual right to use it.
That arrangement has led to many years of disagreements over who is responsible for footing the cost of necessary work.
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I'm an architect who has worked on restoration of historic buildings. The Cathedral of Notre Dame is a UNESCO World Heritage Site. When restoring historic buildings, the goal is to reproduce the design so that people can appreciate it for what it was. Not "Disneyland" reproduction, but restoration as accurately as possible. The Cathedral of Notre Dame is possibly THE most architecturally significant Gothic structures in the world. It was the cathedral that started the entire Gothic style, leading to other great cathedrals such as Amiens, Cologne, Chartres, Reims, and Milan (among others).
That's why I give a damn. Because it matters.
Except that as Mike points out more eloquently than I could, there's not a single "accurate" structure or plan to restore to. It's going to be different. The folks that own it (the french government) and the folks that worship in it (the Catholics) certainly have a right to decide how different and in what ways their building will be when repaired.
I just can't summon the angst about them fixing their church, especially since we haven't actually seen the designs yet.
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Except that as Mike points out more eloquently than I could, there's not a single "accurate" structure or plan to restore to. It's going to be different. The folks that own it (the french government) and the folks that worship in it (the Catholics) certainly have a right to decide how different and in what ways their building will be when repaired.
I just can't summon the angst about them fixing their church, especially since we haven't actually seen the designs yet.
My only dog in this fight is being a semi-practicing Catholic. However, as I think I understand Mike's points, yes, there were changes, but they were in keeping with the overall theme of the landmark. So yes, we need to wait to see what the contest produces, and if it's just minor tweaks, cool with me. If it's some kind of "inclusive and diverse" theme, then no, I'm not cool with it, whether it's any of my business or not.
To me, that's trying to rewrite history, just like removing "Tom Sawyer" from the library,or people destroying Confederate statues, or the Taliban destroying artwork (and pretty much anything else) that doesn't meet their social construct. I may not agree with something historical, but I don't want to see it destroyed or altered to meet the demands of social acceptability for one particular slice of time. History is there for us to learn from. We already have the victors in wars rewriting history. I hate to see that expanded from a "those who do not know their history..." point of view.
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Except that as Mike points out more eloquently than I could, there's not a single "accurate" structure or plan to restore to. It's going to be different. The folks that own it (the french government) and the folks that worship in it (the Catholics) certainly have a right to decide how different and in what ways their building will be when repaired.
Most buildings of any age undergo changes over a period of years. In restoration work, the intent is to decide what point in the history of the building was the most significant point, and restore (insofar as possible) to that benchmark.
The problem with Notre Dame is that I'm pretty certain the people who worship there want to see it restored as closely as possible to what was there before the fire. It's Macron who wants to make it "better." One of the German cathedrals (Cologne, I think) was restored using a steel structure for the roof rather than timber for better fire resistance, but you can't see that from the outside. It was a logical trade-off, and I'm sure it wasn't a decision that was made without considerable debate. So it's "better," but not in the visible way that Macron seems to have in mind.
Notre Dame in Paris (many or the other French Gothic cathedrals are also named "Notre Dame") took roughly 200 years to build. Some of the other great European Gothic cathedrals took longer than that. In all of them, changes were made during the construction period. The builders were in contact with one another. As one found that certain techniques worked, those same techniques were often adopted at the others. Sometimes older work was torn out and replaced as a result of this. Eventually, though, construction (mostly) ended, and the cathedrals were in the configurations in which they have come to be known and revered. Revered not only as churches, but also as architectural and engineering treasures.
As an architect and an architectural historian, I can't feel good about anything but a restoration to the best degree of historic accuracy possible.
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Sooo....
Spire or no Spire?
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As a Catholic and one who appreciates historical architecture, I say it should be restored to what it was before the fire, cosmetically. Minor improvements for safety, sure, but keep it as close to what it was as possible. You don't "improve" art, do you? Would you fancy up the Mona Lisa to make it fit today's "standards" of "art?"
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The problem with Notre Dame is that I'm pretty certain the people who worship there want to see it restored as closely as possible to what was there before the fire. It's Macron who wants to make it "better." One of the German cathedrals (Cologne, I think) was restored using a steel structure for the roof rather than timber for better fire resistance, but you can't see that from the outside. It was a logical trade-off, and I'm sure it wasn't a decision that was made without considerable debate. So it's "better," but not in the visible way that Macron seems to have in mind.
Aren't wooden timbers more fire resistant than steel? From what I remember from my engineering materials class, wooden beams maintain structural integrity for a long time, even as they burn (if you can even get them to ignite) Steel quickly loses strength and fails. OTOH, the wood beams provide fuel and the steel doesn't.
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Maybe by "better" Macron means installing . . . sprinklers? Or other fireproofing materials?
Nah.
Probably has something in mind like including a bearded Buddha wearing a yarmulke with a rosary around his neck, reading a Koran while Ganeesh and Odin look over his shoulders . . . as a starting point.
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Sooo....
Spire or no Spire?
The spire that collapsed in the fire dates to the mid-19th century. Designed by architect Eugene Viollet-le-Duc, it was taller than the original spire but was designed to be faithful to the original aesthetic. I've seen articles that say the spire was "added" in the 19th century. As far as I know, that is incorrect. In any event, the spire that was lost was in place for more than 150 years. It's the spire that appears in almost all photographs of Notre dame, and it's the only spire that anyone currently alive remembers. I think it should be restored as accurately as possible to what it was before the fire.
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Aren't wooden timbers more fire resistant than steel? From what I remember from my engineering materials class, wooden beams maintain structural integrity for a long time, even as they burn (if you can even get them to ignite) Steel quickly loses strength and fails. OTOH, the wood beams provide fuel and the steel doesn't.
Correct on all counts. Steel is noncombustible, but large timbers retain structural integrity longer than steel when exposed to heat. But ... a steel truss won't catch fire and burn.
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Maybe by "better" Macron means installing . . . sprinklers? Or other fireproofing materials?
Nah.
I'm still hoping for a revolving restaurant on the roof, with a water/wine bar and sushi specials on Fridays.
bob
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^^^And it shall be called Loaves and Fishes.
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Aren't wooden timbers more fire resistant than steel? From what I remember from my engineering materials class, wooden beams maintain structural integrity for a long time, even as they burn (if you can even get them to ignite) Steel quickly loses strength and fails. OTOH, the wood beams provide fuel and the steel doesn't.
In something like a cathedral, if steel were to replace wood in the roof structure the whole building would become virtually fireproof.
Literally, the only thing that fueled the Notre Dame fire was the wooden roof and spire structure and perhaps some ancillary stuff that the contractors brought in for the work. During normal periods, there would be literally nothing to burn. The roof structure isn't like a house -- there's no furnishings, clothing, etc., in there to burn.
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In something like a cathedral, if steel were to replace wood in the roof structure the whole building would become virtually fireproof.
In building code speak, it would be "noncombustible," not "fireproof." In order for a building to be qualified as "fireproof" in the building codes, not only must the structure be noncombustible, it must also be protected against heat degradation for a period of 'X' hours ('X' depending on which category of "fireproof" is called for -- there are two). Since, as has been commented, steel loses strength when it gets hot, this means that in a "fireproof" building any steel structure has to be either encased in concrete or covered with a fiarly thick layer of some kind of spray-on or towel-on fireproofing material.
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In something like a cathedral, if steel were to replace wood in the roof structure the whole building would become virtually fireproof.
Literally, the only thing that fueled the Notre Dame fire was the wooden roof and spire structure and perhaps some ancillary stuff that the contractors brought in for the work. During normal periods, there would be literally nothing to burn. The roof structure isn't like a house -- there's no furnishings, clothing, etc., in there to burn.
If heavy wooden beams were the only combustibles, how did they ignite? Ever try to light a log on fire?
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It would depend some on the condition of the beams.
A beam, or section of one that had suffered damage from rot and then dried out could be pretty easy to ignite.
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If heavy wooden beams were the only combustibles, how did they ignite? Ever try to light a log on fire?
We still don't know, if we will ever, exactly how it started and then spread.
Could have been a pile of rubbish that got started first which then got the wood going.
How dry was the wood? Remember, that stuff is/was 800 years old.
What kind of 800 year old finish/protectant if any was on the wood? Some of that stuff is highly flammable
Where is Malaysia Airlines Flight 370?
Questions, questions, questions.
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If heavy wooden beams were the only combustibles, how did they ignite? Ever try to light a log on fire?
They weren't the only combustibles. It isn't just rocks and wood in the church; there are drapes, tablecloths, pews, books, chairs, decorations, worker's supplies, tools, etc.
If the church was just a bunch of neatly-designed rocks, it wouldn't be very comfortable or comforting.
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I find it hard to believe in this day and age that a building like Notre Dame isn’t surveilled from multiple angles.
Look at the Jussie surveillance. They had him from point a to point b almost completely.
Western big cities have become panopticons.
We’re on a need to know basis and the powers that be have decided we don’t need to know.
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We still don't know, if we will ever, exactly how it started and then spread.
Could have been a pile of rubbish that got started first which then got the wood going.
How dry was the wood? Remember, that stuff is/was 800 years old.
What kind of 800 year old finish/protectant if any was on the wood? Some of that stuff is highly flammable
Where is Malaysia Airlines Flight 370?
Questions, questions, questions.
Flight 370 entered a black hole, as reported by CNN. What Don Lemon didn't know is that it traveled through time, collided with Notre Dame (causing the fire), and then traveled back in time, and colluded with the Russians to elect Donald Trump.
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We still don't know, if we will ever, exactly how it started and then spread.
Could have been a pile of rubbish that got started first which then got the wood going.
How dry was the wood? Remember, that stuff is/was 800 years old.
What kind of 800 year old finish/protectant if any was on the wood? Some of that stuff is highly flammable
Where is Malaysia Airlines Flight 370?
Questions, questions, questions.
I think much of the wood roof was rebuilt over the years. One report said the spire was from 1786, another report said 1830.
There was damage from radicals in the later 18th century and from WW2.
So not all of it was 800 years old. But, otoh, I've seen contrary reports.... re: age of the spire ....
Ain't the mass media wunnerful? [tinfoil]
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I think much of the wood roof was rebuilt over the years. One report said the spire was from 1786, another report said 1830.
There was damage from radicals in the later 18th century and from WW2.
So not all of it was 800 years old. But, otoh, I've seen contrary reports.... re: age of the spire ....
Ain't the mass media wunnerful? [tinfoil]
All reports are that the roof (structure and covering) were original. The spire was replaced in the mid-19th century, due to deterioration of the original. The work that was underway this year was to refurbish the spire, again due to deterioration.
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??? *Sigh* As I said .... contradictory news reports ..... plus some unrelated (Internet [so it must be true ]) articles .....
What to believe anymore? [tinfoil]
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If heavy wooden beams were the only combustibles, how did they ignite? Ever try to light a log on fire?
:facepalm:
You do realize that they were actively doing renovations in the roof are, right? And that the roof area was likely full of multiple types of combustible materials that normally wouldn't be there, to include potential ignition sources?
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They weren't the only combustibles. It isn't just rocks and wood in the church; there are drapes, tablecloths, pews, books, chairs, decorations, worker's supplies, tools, etc.
If the church was just a bunch of neatly-designed rocks, it wouldn't be very comfortable or comforting.
Except that where the fire started, in the roof area between the interior stone vaulting and the exterior roof sheathing, there aren't drapes, tablecloths, pews, books chairs, or decorations.
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Except that where the fire started, in the roof area between the interior stone vaulting and the exterior roof sheathing, there aren't drapes, tablecloths, pews, books chairs, or decorations.
There are, actually. It's the secret chapel where Opus Dei plots to take over the world.
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I think much of the wood roof was rebuilt over the years. One report said the spire was from 1786, another report said 1830.
There was damage from radicals in the later 18th century and from WW2.
So not all of it was 800 years old. But, otoh, I've seen contrary reports.... re: age of the spire ....
Ain't the mass media wunnerful? [tinfoil]
Some of the roof beams were original, while others had been replaced over the subsequent 700 or so years.
The spire that burned was a replacement for an older spire that had badly deteriorated. The new spire was part of the major renovation that took place in the 1840s. https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/04/16/story-behind-towering-notre-dame-spire-year-old-architect-commissioned-build-it/?utm_term=.246c6fa91017
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https://voiceofeurope.com/2019/04/macron-says-notre-dame-should-be-rebuilt-consistent-with-the-modern-diverse-france-and-architects-suggest-a-glass-roof-steel-spire-and-minaret/
Honestly, I was only joking about replacing the spire with a minaret.
Yet, in clown world, it’s actually suggested.
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https://voiceofeurope.com/2019/04/macron-says-notre-dame-should-be-rebuilt-consistent-with-the-modern-diverse-france-and-architects-suggest-a-glass-roof-steel-spire-and-minaret/
Honestly, I was only joking about replacing the spire with a minaret.
Yet, in clown world, it’s actually suggested.
You were joking, but I wasn't with my comments about Macron. I had already seen the suggestions for things like a glass roof. Seriously, what's the point of a glass roof on a Gothic cathedral? Would they then remove all the stone vaulted ceilings in the nave, transepts and apse so the glass roof would be visible from inside? I wonder what that would do to the structural balance.
Too many architects today are so interested in making a "statement" that they lose all perspective regarding what's right and what's logical and sensible.
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I find it hard to believe in this day and age that a building like Notre Dame isn’t surveilled from multiple angles.
Look at the Jussie surveillance. They had him from point a to point b almost completely.
Western big cities have become panopticons.
We’re on a need to know basis and the powers that be have decided we don’t need to know.
Can we remove the tinfoil, or at least loosen it up a bit ?? You have work being done IN an 800+ year old structure, 30 meters off the ground. not many surveillance cameras pointing skyward, nor inside he roof of Notre Dame. They are erecting the scaffolding, running generator electric into a tightly confined space, so figure a bunch of dust. You probably have lots of electrical connections, welders, cutsaws, and acetylene torches. There is more then just the oak support timbers,, the spire is made of 200 year old wood, the actual roof is wood (planking) supporting lead tiles.
There were all kinds of combustibles, and all kinds of ignition sources. Keep in mind that worksite electrical connections gets bashed around a bit. So an electrical connection shorting out or stay spark from another source and you have an accidental fire. Probability 99.9%
Achmed either working at or breaking into a busy worksite and accessing the inside of the spire/roof area where the fire started .1%
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There is also the possibility that Achmed was employed as a worker on the site and the terroristic sabotage was an inside job.
Look at what happened on the USS Miami a few years ago.
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This right wing mouthpiece known for it’s shiny tinfoil cap reports on the wave of Roman Catholic Churches in France being vandalized this year.
https://www.newsweek.com/spate-attacks-catholic-churches-france-sees-altars-desecrated-christ-statue-1370800
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Now we know the problem, there's a huuuuuuge shortage of mosques in France and something about LGBT rights :facepalm:
The World Mourned When Notre Dame Burned. But Some Saw It As An Opportunity To Make France Catholic Again.
With the help of billionaires, President Emmanuel Macron raised $1 billion for the reconstruction of Notre Dame, but what about France’s huge shortage of mosques?
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/lesterfeder/notre-dame-fire-france-catholic-church-islam-mosques
https://twitter.com/HashtagGriswold/status/1121819778648297478?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
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You thought the comments about a glass roof were a joke? Guess again:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6963757/Notre-Dame-reborn-GREENHOUSE-French-architects-propose-replacing-damaged-roof-glass.html
French architects have revealed a stunning set of plans to redesign the Notre Dame Cathedral's fire-ravaged roof as a greenhouse.
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You thought the comments about a glass roof were a joke? Guess again:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6963757/Notre-Dame-reborn-GREENHOUSE-French-architects-propose-replacing-damaged-roof-glass.html
They need a good venue for when Marine Le Pen is elected president.