Armed Polite Society

Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: BlueStarLizzard on May 04, 2019, 07:28:41 PM

Title: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: BlueStarLizzard on May 04, 2019, 07:28:41 PM
First disqualification for the winner of the Kentucky Derby happened today.

I don't think it should have gone down the way it did. Maximum Security did bump another horse, but I don't think his little freak out impacted Country House at all.

Plus, the owner and the jockey rubbed me the wrong way. They used the situation to win, when they shouldn't have been the ones to raise the objection at all.
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: WLJ on May 04, 2019, 07:40:16 PM
Russians
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: Hawkmoon on May 04, 2019, 08:45:22 PM
I don't know the rules well enough to make a serious comment. From the perspective of an unknowledgeable spectator, I didn't see anything that I would consider serious enough to have earned a disqualification.
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: Andiron on May 04, 2019, 09:43:28 PM
Seemed like legit racing to me but I don't know the first thing about pony races. 

That being said,  even with the foul (is that what this is called?)  The horse that got DQ'd was clearly going to take it.

Bet Vegas took it in the shorts on those odds  :laugh:
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: WLJ on May 04, 2019, 10:03:30 PM
Local news is saying it could be appealed to the Kentucky Horse Racing Commission or even the courts.
Honestly I don't know enough about the rules on horse racing to say one way or the other.
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: BlueStarLizzard on May 04, 2019, 10:33:19 PM
I know just enough to know I don't know enough to really make a judgement. I noticed the issue during the race and I did think it came close to a catastrophe, but the horse and rider that I was concerned with was the green silks on the inside rail.
If he had made the objection, I would have agreed with the potential foul.

Plus, I didn't see anything that made me think it was any intentional dirty moves on the part of Maximum Efforts jockey. The horse got a little spooky and, if anything, the jockey got him back under control and back in the race on a shitty track very neatly.

Country House didn't get fouled at all. He was all the way on the outside and I couldn't see any sign that he was affected by anything Maximum Effort did.

If anything, I want to know what the green silks said to the stewards.
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: French G. on May 04, 2019, 10:37:50 PM
I don't know jack about horse racing, just aghast that that much money running in those conditions. Doesn't the risk of a maimed horse skyrocket?
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: Hawkmoon on May 04, 2019, 11:05:52 PM
I know just enough to know I don't know enough to really make a judgement. I noticed the issue during the race and I did think it came close to a catastrophe, but the horse and rider that I was concerned with was the green silks on the inside rail.
If he had made the objection, I would have agreed with the potential foul.


Yes, it almost looked like Maximum Effort's jockey threw an elbow at the head of the horse running inside him, to his left.
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: BlueStarLizzard on May 04, 2019, 11:17:26 PM
Yes, it almost looked like Maximum Effort's jockey threw an elbow at the head of the horse running inside him, to his left.

That was probably an optical illusion because of the camera angle. It was the horses that bumped and I imagine the jockey was struggling to keep his balance, thus elbows waving. I honestly don't know how they do it, perched like that at those speeds.  :O I think of all the times I went down and I actually had my butt *in* the saddle.

And in that much muck? It looked like a close one. I really did think we were going to see a pile up at one point.
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: BlueStarLizzard on May 04, 2019, 11:21:45 PM
I don't know jack about horse racing, just aghast that that much money running in those conditions. Doesn't the risk of a maimed horse skyrocket?

I don't think racing conditions really matter. It's a risky sport no matter what they do.

FWIW, pretty much all equestrian sports really are dangerous as hell for both horse and rider. Dressage is kind of tame, but then you have stuff like eventing and foxhunting and that's just the English riders.
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: Jamisjockey on May 05, 2019, 07:58:59 AM
I don't know the rules well enough to make a serious comment. From the perspective of an unknowledgeable spectator, I didn't see anything that I would consider serious enough to have earned a disqualification.

Samsies.
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: WLJ on May 05, 2019, 09:08:21 AM
A lot of calls in both basketball and football that I just flat out don't see even in replay either
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: 230RN on May 05, 2019, 09:15:57 AM
Could not see well enough to call it.

https://youtu.be/Ci_ychn7ga0

But 55:1 odds for Country House?  Holy Mackerel !  Did I get that right?



Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: WLJ on May 05, 2019, 09:16:21 AM
The ruling was unanimous

Quote
Barbara Borden: “Good evening. The riders of the 18 [Spinoff] and 20 [Country House] horses in the Kentucky Derby lodged objections against the 7 [Maximum Security] horse, the winner, due to interference turning for home leaving the quarter pole. We had a lengthy review of the race. We interviewed affected riders. We determined that the 7 horse drifted out and impacted the progress of number 1, in turn interfering with the 18 and 21 [Bodexpress]. Those horses were all affected, we thought, by the interference. Therefore we unanimously determined to disqualify number 7 and place him behind the 18, 18 being the lowest-placed horse that he bothered, which is our typical procedure.”
Quote
The rule, as written, is below:

"If a leading horse or any other horse in a race swerves or is ridden to either side so as to interfere with, intimidate, or impede any other horse or jockey, or to cause the same result, this action shall be deemed a foul. ... If, in the opinion of the stewards, a foul alters the finish of a race, an offending horse may be disqualified by the stewards."
Rules officials explain why Maximum Security was disqualified in Kentucky Derby
https://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/horses/kentucky-derby/2019/05/04/kentucky-derby-2019-steward-explains-disqualification/1106686001/

What I saw upon further review was 7 suddenly moved out of his lane and that caused a chain reaction. I did notice in the resulting chain reaction at least one horse stumble almost to the point of going over and I think that more than anything else caught the attention of the stewards.

To translate for  you NASCAR folks.
That Dale Earnhardt %$#! don't fly in horse racing. Too much chance for both riders and horses to get hurt.
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: WLJ on May 05, 2019, 09:50:14 AM
It could be overturned in appeal but I doubt it due to the ruling being unanimous and after knowing what to look for I can now see it for myself. A lot of this is knowing what to look for.

Quote
What made this decision so difficult is that Maximum Security didn’t cause any of his rivals to pull up. He didn’t knock anybody off stride. His transgressions were subtle, but were obvious to anybody who studied the replays as long as the stewards did.

Billy Reed: Bizarre Derby result could be appealed, would make possible Preakness rematch interesting
https://www.wave3.com/2019/05/05/billy-reed-bizarre-derby-result-could-be-appealed-would-make-possible-preakness-rematch-interesting/

I have to disagree with the didn't knock anybody off stride part. Like I said above I did notice a horse, edit START, to stumble in the chain reaction. Maybe he means he didn't directly knock anybody off stride.
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: Hawkmoon on May 05, 2019, 10:59:39 AM
Could not see well enough to call it.

https://youtu.be/Ci_ychn7ga0


So the [alleged] interference occurred earlier in the race than I thought.
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: BlueStarLizzard on May 05, 2019, 11:02:53 AM
Watching again.

Yes, there was a foul. Actually, I'd say now there were two. Code of Honor and War of Wills.

However, I'm still not sure Country House deserved that one.  =|

I hope Country House crashes and burns in the Preakness. I wouldn't like a Triple Crown to be awarded this year. It's too messy and would sully the whole thing.
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: French G. on May 05, 2019, 01:14:18 PM
Screw it, give them swords, maces, and lances. Burn the rule book. Lots of new prop bets that way.
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: WLJ on May 05, 2019, 01:29:53 PM
There are times when I wish someone would take Trump's phone away.
No Mr. Trump political correctness had nothing to do with it.

Quote
   The Kentuky Derby decision was not a good one. It was a rough and tumble race on a wet and sloppy track, actually, a beautiful thing to watch. Only in these days of political correctness could such an overturn occur. The best horse did NOT win the Kentucky Derby – not even close!

    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) May 5, 2019

Donald Trump Blames ‘Political Correctness’ for Kentucky Derby DQ Ruling
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/05/05/donald-trump-blames-political-correctness-kentucky-derby-dq-ruling/
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: BlueStarLizzard on May 05, 2019, 02:36:27 PM
 :facepalm:

He needs a social media editor.

Sooo bad...
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: MechAg94 on May 05, 2019, 08:05:07 PM
You get the good with the bad.  If he had a social media editor, none of what he said would be "Trump".  It would be the same as all the other politicians. 
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: French G. on May 05, 2019, 08:07:02 PM
I keep wanting Milo for press secretary. I mean they're gonna act like idiots no matter what he does, might as well have fun with it.
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: WLJ on May 06, 2019, 10:12:58 PM
Next stop is court I guess if they want to continue fighting this
And Maximum Security won't be running in the Preakness so no rematch there at least

UPDATE: Maximum Security’s owners appeal of Derby result denied by Kentucky Horse Racing Commission
https://www.wave3.com/2019/05/06/maximum-securitys-owners-appeal-derby-ruling-with-state-racing-commission/
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: 230RN on May 07, 2019, 08:24:25 AM
You get the good with the bad.  If he had a social media editor, none of what he said would be "Trump".  It would be the same as all the other politicians.  

Agreed.  It's refreshing to hear an official's reactions, even on non-poliical matters, before it gets polished and the corners rounded off and cleaned up and sanitized and lubricated by protocol wonks.

Especially the lubrication part.

Especially the lubrication part.

Terry, 230RN
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: RoadKingLarry on May 07, 2019, 02:53:45 PM
I don't think racing conditions really matter. It's a risky sport no matter what they do.

FWIW, pretty much all equestrian sports really are dangerous as hell for both horse and rider. Dressage is kind of tame, but then you have stuff like eventing and foxhunting and that's just the English riders.

Messing with horses can always get dangerous.
Anytime you take one of the stupidest animals on the face of the earth and mount him/her on an animal known to get spooked into panic by it's own shadow you have a recipe for potential disaster.
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: WLJ on May 07, 2019, 09:32:33 PM
Now Country House won't be running in the Preakness as well, he's sick

Kentucky Derby winner Country House won't run in Preakness, ending Triple Crown shot
https://www.foxnews.com/sports/kentucky-derby-winner-country-house-wont-run-in-preakness-ending-triple-crown-shot
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: WLJ on May 09, 2019, 10:59:21 AM
More

In short: Learn the rules is you're upset over the outcome

Horse racing expert blames Kentucky Derby outcry on rules ignorance
https://www.wdrb.com/news/horse-racing-expert-blames-kentucky-derby-outcry-on-rules-ignorance/article_a9b10e90-71fe-11e9-88b8-4fec5cd45551.html
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: HankB on May 09, 2019, 12:49:41 PM
I wonder how many races are run where "interference" occurs, but is not called . . .
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: WLJ on May 10, 2019, 08:13:56 AM
Enter the lawyers

Maximum Security jockey, legal team to meet with Churchill Downs stewards
https://www.wave3.com/2019/05/10/maximum-security-jockey-legal-team-meet-with-churchill-downs-stewards/
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: WLJ on May 15, 2019, 02:34:55 PM
Federal lawsuit filed

Quote
LOUISVILLE, KY (WAVE) - The owners of Maximum Security, the horse disqualified from Kentucky Derby 145 after crossing the finish line first, have officially filed a federal lawsuit against the Kentucky Horse Racing Commission and the Churchill Downs stewards behind the decision.

Maximum Security owners file federal suit following Derby disqualification
https://www.wave3.com/2019/05/15/maximum-security-owners-file-federal-suit-following-derby-disqualification/
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: WLJ on May 17, 2019, 06:40:09 PM
And still more

Quote
Gary West on Friday offered a total of $20 million to the connections of four other Derby contenders if any of those horses can beat Maximum Security before the end of the year.

West said he would pay $5 million each to the connections of Country House, War of Will, Long Range Toddy and Bodexpress.

Maximum Security’s owner offers $20 million challenge to 4 Derby rivals
https://www.wave3.com/2019/05/17/maximum-securitys-owner-offers-million-challenge-derby-rivals/
Title: Re: Kentucky Derby Drama
Post by: BlueStarLizzard on May 17, 2019, 07:01:30 PM
And still more

Maximum Security’s owner offers $20 million challenge to 4 Derby rivals
https://www.wave3.com/2019/05/17/maximum-securitys-owner-offers-million-challenge-derby-rivals/

Interesting.

Now what would be cool would be him offering up the pot for a proper challenge race, a la Seabiscuit vs. War Admiral.