Armed Polite Society

Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Ben on September 05, 2019, 05:54:13 PM

Title: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Ben on September 05, 2019, 05:54:13 PM
So when CA had the big wildfires over the last couple of years, everyone was pointing fingers at, and suing the power companies, telling them to not be so negligent and do something to stop wildfires. This year they are. When fire weather reaches a critical threshold, they are shutting off power, and stating it could be for up to a week at a time.

It will be interesting to see how the people who told them to be better react to dealing with the same kind of outages those in hurricane zones deal with. "I told you to do something, not inconvenience me!"

https://www.independent.com/2019/09/05/fire-weather-power-shutoff-is-imminent-officials-say/
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: HankB on September 05, 2019, 07:09:44 PM
And . . . if a judge orders them NOT to shut off the power and a fire results, they'll have a pretty good defense both in a court of law and in the court of public opinion.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: RoadKingLarry on September 05, 2019, 07:25:57 PM
So when CA had the big wildfires over the last couple of years, everyone was pointing fingers at, and suing the power companies, telling them to not be so negligent and do something to stop wildfires. This year they are. When fire weather reaches a critical threshold, they are shutting off power, and stating it could be for up to a week at a time.

It will be interesting to see how the people who told them to be better react to dealing with the same kind of outages those in hurricane zones deal with. "I told you to do something, not inconvenience me!"

https://www.independent.com/2019/09/05/fire-weather-power-shutoff-is-imminent-officials-say/

Giving the people exactly what they asked for, good and hard.
 :rofl:

Of course keeping the power line right-of-ways clear of overgrown and dead brush/trees would be far too damaging to the natural environment.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Ben on September 05, 2019, 07:48:34 PM
Giving the people exactly what they asked for, good and hard.
 :rofl:

Of course keeping the power line right-of-ways clear of overgrown and dead brush/trees would be far too damaging to the natural environment.

That is of course the problem. Even when they get permission to clear the easements, they're stuck in permission paperwork forever. So I don't blame them one bit for going this route. It's the absolute safest and surest way to prevent a utility caused fire.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: dogmush on September 06, 2019, 03:44:53 AM
Wow.  It's sure a good thing generators never start brush fires.  That would be ironically tragic.  (or maybe tragically ironic.)

Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: MechAg94 on September 06, 2019, 09:00:52 AM
So is the electrical distribution network still a monopoly over there?  What does a monopoly do when they are sued?  Don't they just pass it on to customers?
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: dogmush on September 06, 2019, 10:39:48 AM
They implied as much in the article:

Quote
In the meantime, Guthrie went on, Edison continues to harden its equipment against fire across its 50,000 square miles of “high-risk” coverage area. They’re either insulating or undergrounding overhead lines, though Guthrie noted it costs the utility around $3 million to bury a mile of line compared to $430,000 to cover it. The extra cost is passed along to the customer, she said.

If they're passing on the line costs, you know they are rolling court costs in to the operating budget.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Ben on September 06, 2019, 10:43:16 AM
They implied as much in the article:

If they're passing on the line costs, you know they are rolling court costs in to the operating budget.

Wow. $3 million per mile.  I'm curious what those costs are in other states.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: MechAg94 on September 06, 2019, 04:25:52 PM
Wow. $3 million per mile.  I'm curious what those costs are in other states.
That sounds like pipeline costs estimates I have heard.  I assume they are not just shoving it in the ground.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Ben on September 10, 2019, 08:22:21 AM
Heh. Two days after the first planned outage, citizens are looking for other solutions.  :laugh:

https://www.independent.com/2019/09/10/edison-and-fire/
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: brimic on September 10, 2019, 09:03:20 AM
Why doesn't everyone just buy a windmill?  :rofl: :rofl:
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Hawkmoon on September 10, 2019, 12:42:48 PM
Heh. Two days after the first planned outage, citizens are looking for other solutions.  :laugh:

https://www.independent.com/2019/09/10/edison-and-fire/

Hah! What a joke.

Quote
I can understand SoCalEdison’s strong need to protect itself from possibly ruinous fire-related lawsuits, but I do think that the public, via the California Public Utilities Commission, should have some say in the matter.

IIRC, the Public Utilities Commission has had their say in the matter. They told the electric companies that they'd be responsible if their lines spark and cause a fire.

Quote
There may likely be solutions in which SCE et al. could be protected from lawsuits, while the state provides reasonable compensation to those affected by fires.

Who does this clown think "the state" is, and where does he think "the state" gets its money? The people pay, whether it's through higher electric bills or through a tax to "reimburse" people for dames caused by fires. It's just a question of which pocket is being picked.

Quote
I feel that the public’s needs and desires should be factored into to any decision regarding this matter.

That's the role of the PUC. Obviously, the bottom line is that the public wants there to be no fires, no cost associated with preventing them, and no clear-cutting of the rights-of-way. That's not going to happen, so let's more on to discussing possible solutions.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Fly320s on October 08, 2019, 09:40:08 AM
I'm in SF right now on my way to the airport.  The local radio news was talking about the imminent power shutdown. The two radio hosts were a bit miffed about having to go without power for a few days to a week.  I laughed.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Fly320s on October 08, 2019, 09:42:58 AM
Link to local news.  https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sfchronicle.com/california-wildfires/amp/PG-E-issues-unprecedented-power-shutoff-watch-for-14498454.php
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: RoadKingLarry on October 08, 2019, 10:47:52 AM
Sounds like California is getting what they demanded "good and hard".
 :rofl:
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: TommyGunn on October 08, 2019, 11:00:15 AM
California.....finally reduced to third world status.

Took long enough. >:D
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Ben on October 11, 2019, 10:58:26 AM
I saw this morning that Gavin Newsom was yelling at PG&E for not clearing brush under their easements.  ;/

While everyone there (CA APS members excluded) continues to blame the power companies and the state gov can apparently do no wrong. I bet many of them are the same people that yell for solar, but don't have any panels on their roofs, because somehow, they should be installed for free. "Grid power is a human right!"

Such a difference between that and Idaho (not to be continually bragging about Idaho). My electric bills are literally a quarter what they were in CA, while using way more electricity. I haven't yet had more than a 5 second outage, and a couple of months ago  I got a notice from Idaho Power that they were cutting my rates because their costs went down, so they were passing that on.

It's not like Idaho Power is that much better than Edison or PG&E (as in, they are all efficient when they can be), but the state here keeping out of Idaho Power's business seems to make a big difference. Of course here, if people lose power in December, it's a bit more life-threatening than if it happens in LA, and I think the state gov prioritizes that.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: MechAg94 on October 11, 2019, 11:18:26 AM
I don't know that Texas is any better, but I think a lot of other states look at California in that way. 

Here I am getting power from Trieagle.  The lines are operated and maintained by Centerpoint.  There is still a state power commission that monitors things.  As far as I know, they will still come in and clear power line easements.  Most of the infrastructure near me is based around industrial use, not residential.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Fly320s on October 11, 2019, 02:00:20 PM
Idaho's average electric rate is half that of California's.  Free states like NH only pay... more than California.  Damn it!

https://paylesspower.com/blog/electric-rates-by-state/

Pretty much all of New England pays above average rates.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: HankB on October 11, 2019, 02:24:45 PM
. . . Of course here, if people lose power in December, it's a bit more life-threatening than if it happens in LA, and I think the state gov prioritizes that.
Given the city's demographics, summer nights in LA without power might actually be rather dangerous.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Ben on October 11, 2019, 02:51:05 PM
Idaho's average electric rate is half that of California's.  Free states like NH only pay... more than California.  Damn it!

https://paylesspower.com/blog/electric-rates-by-state/

Pretty much all of New England pays above average rates.

I'm not sure if that chart is taking in the tiered rates in CA and a few other states. Tier 3 in SoCal is around $0.45/kw. While you can avoid that tier on the coast, it's hard to do so in the central valley with the 100deg+ temps. My dad is a miser and on the 2700 sq ft house on the family farm, the average bill from JUL-SEP was around $350/mo. One neighbor in a smaller house that liked to stay cool said his was around $600/mo for the same period.

Here, the average on my 2800 sq ft house since I've been here is $65/mo. I topped out at $80 in August. $65 was about my average for my one bedroom condo in Santa Barbara when I was living there (where mostly no AC or heating is needed).

What's really cheap here is ag electricity. For flood irrigating my lower 25 acres through the summer, plus topping off my pond a couple times a month, I've been averaging ~$40/mo.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Ben on October 11, 2019, 09:57:18 PM
I am rolling on the floor here!  :rofl:

Apparently a ton of people in CA (and likely elsewhere) installed solar panels, but didn't include any battery backup. Now they can't understand why their solar panels aren't getting them through the power outages.  :rofl:

Of course Bloomberg explained it as, "batteries power the solar panels."  ;/

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2019/10/11/californians-discover-their-solar-panels-dont-work-when-pge-shuts-down-the-grid/
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: kgbsquirrel on October 11, 2019, 10:36:43 PM
I am rolling on the floor here!  :rofl:

Apparently a ton of people in CA (and likely elsewhere) installed solar panels, but didn't include any battery backup. Now they can't understand why their solar panels aren't getting them through the power outages.  :rofl:

Of course Bloomberg explained it as, "batteries power the solar panels."  ;/

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2019/10/11/californians-discover-their-solar-panels-dont-work-when-pge-shuts-down-the-grid/

But thanks for funding China's semiconductor industry.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Angel Eyes on October 12, 2019, 10:13:14 AM
https://www.foxnews.com/us/oxygen-dependent-man-dies-12-minutes-after-pge-cuts-power-to-his-home

I smell big fat lawsuit.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Ben on October 12, 2019, 10:55:31 AM
https://www.foxnews.com/us/oxygen-dependent-man-dies-12-minutes-after-pge-cuts-power-to-his-home

I smell big fat lawsuit.


Almost certainly. One can only hope the state is one of the defendants, but I doubt it.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: MillCreek on October 12, 2019, 11:19:41 AM
I have wondered from time to time about the combination of solar panels and a Tesla Powerwall or equivalent.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Ben on October 12, 2019, 11:29:11 AM
I have wondered from time to time about the combination of solar panels and a Tesla Powerwall or equivalent.

I've thought about that myself. What turns me off about it is that the powerwall is solar only. No way (last time I checked) to charge the powerwall with a generator. That seems kinda lame for say, an extended outage and an overcast December.

I don't know if there are equivalent setups, but to me, ten solar panels tied to a battery array the size of one powerwall that also allows, at the flip of a switch, for generator charging would be an ideal solution for me. If sunlight in Winter doesn't cut it, you charge the batteries for a few hours with the genny before nightfall, and then you have enough silent power to run at least a gas furnace through the night.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: MillCreek on October 12, 2019, 11:56:07 AM
^^^Wow, I learn something every day: the Powerwall is solar only?  That is an odd decision.  I wonder if there are engineering issues why that is.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: dogmush on October 12, 2019, 12:46:48 PM
The powerwall is a battery and voltage regulator.  Feed it power and it will charge.  Give it a load and it will discharge.

Because of code issues and backfeeding the mains the Powerwall is considered a "backup generator" and normally fills that spot (charging from solar and discharging as needed) but Tesla does list ways to integrate it with a backup generator and Automatic Transfer Switch. In that hookup the gen wouldn't charge the battery pack. detailed here  (https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/powerwall/learn/combining-systems)

One could, of course, put the battery on the other side of the Automatic Transfer Switch, so the gen charged it.  You'd want to take some care with the charging circuitry and make sure it shut off when fully charged. You'd probably have to run the generator power through a rectifier and to the DC side of the powerwall to get to the charging circuits.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: HankB on October 12, 2019, 01:31:18 PM
I am rolling on the floor here!  :rofl:

Apparently a ton of people in CA (and likely elsewhere) installed solar panels, but didn't include any battery backup. Now they can't understand why their solar panels aren't getting them through the power outages.  :rofl:

NO batteries? When I was on safari in Africa the hunting camp - WAY off the grid! - had solar panels feeding what looked like ordinary car batteries. There was sufficient power to keep a couple of fluorescent lights on for at least several hours after dark.

If people in remote parts of Africa know that batteries are needed . . . what kind of morons are we raising in the USA who don't know it?   :facepalm:

Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Ben on October 12, 2019, 01:47:43 PM
but Tesla does list ways to integrate it with a backup generator and Automatic Transfer Switch. In that hookup the gen wouldn't charge the battery pack. detailed here  (https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/powerwall/learn/combining-systems)


That must be somewhat new. When I was looking at Powerwalls a couple of years ago,  I seem to recall they didn't want a generator anywhere near the powerwall. Though the above still defeats the purpose for me. Being able to switch to a generator is no different than what I have now with my lockout switch. The benefit for me would be to be able to generator charge the powerwall during the day so I don't have to listen to a generator at night, or else go out in the freezing cold to turn it on and off.

I recall when I first looked, guys listed workarounds, but I believe they voided any and all Tesla warranties.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 12, 2019, 04:10:58 PM
And so it begins:

https://fox40.com/2019/10/11/pollock-pines-family-says-man-died-when-oxygen-tank-lost-power-during-pge-shut-off/

Man dies, and the family blames it on the power cut.

Quote
Family members performed CPR on Mardis, but responding paramedics pronounced him dead. Aldea says her father's health issues didn't help, but she believes part of the blame is on PG&E.

"I don't understand why they turned off the power," she said. "No winds at all. And because of that, my father is gone. Blaming them is not going to bring my father back, unfortunately."

Maybe they turned off the power because they had assessed a risk and acted accordingly. It's not like it was a secret -- this had been in the news for at least a week before the power was cut.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Ben on October 12, 2019, 05:41:02 PM
Quote
"No winds at all. And because of that, my father is gone.

I wonder how many people looked outside and said, "No wind. They won't cut the power." without realizing they might get their electricity from 30 miles away where there IS wind.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 12, 2019, 06:03:05 PM
I wonder how many people looked outside and said, "No wind. They won't cut the power." without realizing they might get their electricity from 30 miles away where there IS wind.

30 miles? Isn't it more like 300 miles?
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Ben on October 12, 2019, 06:11:45 PM
30 miles? Isn't it more like 300 miles?

They're outside Sacramento. Three hundred miles would put them in Oregon, Nevada, the ocean, or SoCal Edison territory. Nothing that PG&E would shut down.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 12, 2019, 07:55:29 PM
Grid.

The electricity currently (no pun intended) in Sacramento almost certainly is not all generated within 30 miles of Sacramento.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Fly320s on October 12, 2019, 08:21:41 PM
I've thought about that myself. What turns me off about it is that the powerwall is solar only. No way (last time I checked) to charge the powerwall with a generator. That seems kinda lame for say, an extended outage and an overcast December.

I don't know if there are equivalent setups, but to me, ten solar panels tied to a battery array the size of one powerwall that also allows, at the flip of a switch, for generator charging would be an ideal solution for me. If sunlight in Winter doesn't cut it, you charge the batteries for a few hours with the genny before nightfall, and then you have enough silent power to run at least a gas furnace through the night.

Skip the Powerwall.  It is way too expensive and you'll never recoup your costs.

We just installed solar panels on the roof.  I wanted batteries as backup, but the costs and ROIs just didn't work.  We are grid-tied, as almost everyone is, so we will get credit on our bill for the power we generate and we also get to sell our RECs on the open market.  Renewable Energy Certificates:  https://www.epa.gov/greenpower/renewable-energy-certificates-recs

Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Ben on October 12, 2019, 08:22:44 PM
Grid.

The electricity currently (no pun intended) in Sacramento almost certainly is not all generated within 30 miles of Sacramento.

30 miles was an example.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: MechAg94 on October 15, 2019, 09:17:59 AM
https://babylonbee.com/news/progressive-utopia-of-california-becomes-first-state-to-eliminate-electricity-entirely
Progressive Utopia Of California Becomes First State To Eliminate Electricity Entirely

Quote
"Other, backward states still use carbon-heavy electricity, gas for heating and cooking, and wasteful air conditioning," he said proudly as people applauded around him. "But not on my watch. California has progressed beyond these archaic concepts."

What's Next?
Quote
Next on the legislative docket? The elimination of water-wasting toilets, to be replaced by just going on the sidewalk. A pilot program in San Francisco has been very successful, according to the homeless population there.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: TechMan on October 15, 2019, 02:19:41 PM
https://babylonbee.com/news/progressive-utopia-of-california-becomes-first-state-to-eliminate-electricity-entirely
Progressive Utopia Of California Becomes First State To Eliminate Electricity Entirely

What's Next?

 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:  The Bee hits another one out of the park.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Ben on October 18, 2019, 08:36:24 AM
Continuation of the whining from the lower half of the state, where SoCal Edison is being sued instead of PG&E.

https://www.independent.com/2019/10/17/supervisors-double-down-on-edison-litigation/
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 18, 2019, 10:13:33 AM
Continuation of the whining from the lower half of the state, where SoCal Edison is being sued instead of PG&E.

https://www.independent.com/2019/10/17/supervisors-double-down-on-edison-litigation/

At least there are a few sane people there, albeit in the minority.

Quote
Supporting Adam was Andy Caldwell, who is running for Congress and attends county supervisor meetings regularly for the Coalition of Labor, Agriculture and Business. Caldwell attacked the supervisors for “intellectual dishonesty”: “You want them to keep the power on, even if there’s a wind event,” he said, “but on the other hand you sued them for fires associated with a wind event.” He accused the county of “complicity with fires and debris flows,” saying, “You can’t have it both ways.”
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Ben on October 18, 2019, 10:52:54 AM
At least there are a few sane people there, albeit in the minority.


Yeah, I'm continually amazed that Adams remains on the Board of Supervisors. He's from the North county, which includes Vandenberg AFB and was reliably conservative (albeit in small numbers), but conservatives are as rare as the dodo there nowadays. I expect his lone common sense voice to disappear in one or two election cycles.

Caldwell is something of a gadfly to the board of supervisors there, which continually amuses me when I check in to the goings on in my old haunt.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: dogmush on October 18, 2019, 01:25:51 PM
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/21/1a/63/211a634c190d8b84a4319b386476bcb6.jpg)

You know the power companies have got to be thinking it......
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Firethorn on October 18, 2019, 01:39:59 PM
NO batteries? When I was on safari in Africa the hunting camp - WAY off the grid! - had solar panels feeding what looked like ordinary car batteries. There was sufficient power to keep a couple of fluorescent lights on for at least several hours after dark.

If people in remote parts of Africa know that batteries are needed . . . what kind of morons are we raising in the USA who don't know it?   :facepalm:

I think that they're looking at the solar panels being like a generator - they probably understand that no batteries = no power at night, but what is shocking them is that they can't get power even during the day when the solar panels should be producing plenty of electricity.

It's a bit more complex to realize that you need extra equipment in the inverter, preferably with at least a few batteries, to implement load following.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Angel Eyes on October 18, 2019, 06:28:33 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/uwy4JdV.jpg)
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Ben on October 18, 2019, 06:43:01 PM
[img]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/21/1a/63/211a634c190d8b84a4319b386476bcb6.jpg

You know the power companies have got to be thinking it......

No kidding. Apparently Newsom wants to break PG&E apart and encourage entities like the city of San Fran to buy those pieces and run things. I mean, it's right out of the book. These days  I honestly don't know which will make it to real life first: Atlas Shrugged or Idiocracy.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: RoadKingLarry on October 18, 2019, 07:07:30 PM
No kidding. Apparently Newsom wants to break PG&E apart and encourage entities like the city of San Fran to buy those pieces and run things. I mean, it's right out of the book. These days  I honestly don't know which will make it to real life first: Atlas Shrugged or Idiocracy.

I'm not entirely sure they would be mutually exclusive...
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: K Frame on October 19, 2019, 07:35:21 AM
Don't forget... some years ago California made PG&E pick between distribution and generation. Can't do both... that's an evil capitalist monopoly!

So, PG&E chose distribution and purchased power from the distributors.

Only, they now had no excess capacity, because that was being sold out of state where it was more profitable. Which meant that during times of high demand, PG&E had to purchase power on the spot market, which was subject to, oddly enough, demand pricing, which caused rates to soar, which was, in part (only part because of government mandated price caps... WE'RE HELPING!). Now, the distribution companies also did some manipulation designed to drive up spot market prices, but that was, somehow, still PG&E's fault...

Cue screeching from the politicians who created that mess, screaming about how PG&E was gouging consumers to line its pockets, when nothing was farther from the truth.

Now California is crying about how PG&E criminally neglected its infrastructure, when even a most cursory glance reveals that in a lot of cases California law is a direct impediment in the ability to maintain those lines.

Part of me likes to think that some of this is PG&E's board just sitting around and voting to enact their Screw you Newsome Plan Phase 1.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: kgbsquirrel on October 19, 2019, 05:26:52 PM
Don't forget... some years ago California made PG&E pick between distribution and generation. Can't do both... that's an evil capitalist monopoly!

So, PG&E chose distribution and purchased power from the distributors.

Only, they now had no excess capacity, because that was being sold out of state where it was more profitable. Which meant that during times of high demand, PG&E had to purchase power on the spot market, which was subject to, oddly enough, demand pricing, which caused rates to soar, which was, in part (only part because of government mandated price caps... WE'RE HELPING!). Now, the distribution companies also did some manipulation designed to drive up spot market prices, but that was, somehow, still PG&E's fault...

Cue screeching from the politicians who created that mess, screaming about how PG&E was gouging consumers to line its pockets, when nothing was farther from the truth.

Now California is crying about how PG&E criminally neglected its infrastructure, when even a most cursory glance reveals that in a lot of cases California law is a direct impediment in the ability to maintain those lines.

Part of me likes to think that some of this is PG&E's board just sitting around and voting to enact their Screw you Newsome Plan Phase 1.

I'd be curious if there were/are any financial relationships between in state decision makers and out of state energy providers.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Ben on October 25, 2019, 05:22:08 PM
Well, this should add fuel to the fire.

One of the current CA fires appears to have started via a power line that was NOT shut down.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/california-wildfire-possible-source

Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 25, 2019, 06:15:27 PM
Quote
In shutting off the electricity, PG&E cut power to the distribution lines that supply homes, but not to its long-distance transmission lines.

??? I thought it was the long-distance, high voltage lines that were the purported culprits last year.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Ben on October 25, 2019, 07:43:27 PM
Also from the article:

Quote
The disclosure comes after a PG&E worker was targeted in an attempted attack earlier this week, officials said.
Cows stand on a ridge as the Kincade Fire approaches in unincorporated Sonoma County, Calif., on Thursday. (AP)

In that incident, the worker’s front passenger seat window was reportedly shot at by a projectile. The employee was not injured in the incident and the projectile was believed to be fired by a pellet gun.

PG&E President and CEO Bill Johnson had called the incident a “deliberate attack” and called on communities to stop such acts of “violence,” according to SFGate.

That's a bit more Atlas Shrugged material there.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Cliffh on October 27, 2019, 11:33:09 PM
Personally I like the way PG&E's giving CA .gov the finger.  "Won't let us do what we need to clear the right of way and then blame/sue us?  Well, FU!" 

DW talked to my brother today, seems that he's in one of the areas to have their power cut and may end up with a mandatory evac order.  Everyone needs to have a backup plan....
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: TechMan on October 28, 2019, 12:17:01 PM
This seems like a good place to post this.  I don't know the accuracy of this, so take it with a grain of salt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLkF6zLxg_U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLkF6zLxg_U)
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 28, 2019, 11:12:36 PM
Another perspective:

https://nypost.com/2019/10/28/californians-created-their-current-apocalypse/

Quote
President Trump had it right last summer: “There is no reason for these massive, deadly and costly forest fires in California except that forest management is so poor.”

On his final day in office, Gov. Jerry Brown admitted as much by quietly signing bills removing impediments to “controlled burns” and allotting $190 million a year to “improve forest health and fire prevention.”

But that’s not remotely enough: California’s Forestry Department would like to double its amount of tree and brush thinning over the next five years — but isn’t sure it can. Its deputy director, Helge Eng, sees “a significant public-education campaign ahead of us as foresters to get the public to understand” how dangerously unnatural it is to not thin out forests.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Ben on November 07, 2019, 08:13:06 AM
And now they have to deal with the unintended consequences of generators.  :laugh:

I'm cracking up, because as they assail Trump because he wants the special CA vehicle emissions stuff done away with, CA is currently allowing generators into the state that are not CA compliant for pollution. Their holier than though crap on emissions crumbled pretty fast when it meant there wasn't enough product to meet demand and no generator company was going to change production or take a risk of the rest of the country not buying their product to make more CA compliant generators.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/california-burns-generator-companies-make-power-grab-n1076611

Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: dogmush on November 07, 2019, 09:48:33 AM
From Ben's article:

Quote
I’m afraid he is going to fall and break his neck and we’ll have no power to call 911,” she said. The Hurds knew they needed to invest in a power alternative, so they bought a 3500 Predator generator for $800 in early October that runs on unleaded gasoline. It powers their two small refrigerators, a TV and their cellphones. They share the generator with neighbors who can’t afford one of their own.

I knew libs could be stupid, but who pays full price for a Harbor Freight Generator?  Holy Crap!  Don't they know those things go on sale every other month?  Also someone should mention what all you can run with 3.5 Chinese kilowats, before they blow up their fridges with 90 VAC.


I am well into Nelson "Ha Ha!" territory on this whole thing. Make it functionally impossible to cut trees around lines, combined with not letting the forest service thin growth out ever, combine with strict limits on the ability of utilities to raise rates to cover unforeseen maintenance and upgrades (or even foreseen ones) and this is what you get.  8 or 9 years of good fires should probably have the *expletive deleted*it cleared out so it won't burn again for a while.  The only thing that could make this better is if PG&E's plants burn down so they just can't have power/
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: MechAg94 on November 07, 2019, 10:08:09 AM
From Ben's article:

I knew libs could be stupid, but who pays full price for a Harbor Freight Generator?  Holy Crap!  Don't they know those things go on sale every other month?  Also someone should mention what all you can run with 3.5 Chinese kilowats, before they blow up their fridges with 90 VAC.


I am well into Nelson "Ha Ha!" territory on this whole thing. Make it functionally impossible to cut trees around lines, combined with not letting the forest service thin growth out ever, combine with strict limits on the ability of utilities to raise rates to cover unforeseen maintenance and upgrades (or even foreseen ones) and this is what you get.  8 or 9 years of good fires should probably have the *expletive deleted*it cleared out so it won't burn again for a while.  The only thing that could make this better is if PG&E's plants burn down so they just can't have power/
The better part would be if the actual city dwellers got hit by the power outages.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Hawkmoon on November 07, 2019, 10:14:32 AM
From Ben's article:

Quote
I’m afraid he is going to fall and break his neck and we’ll have no power to call 911,” she said. The Hurds knew they needed to invest in a power alternative, so they bought a 3500 Predator generator for $800 in early October that runs on unleaded gasoline. It powers their two small refrigerators, a TV and their cellphones. They share the generator with neighbors who can’t afford one of their own.

I knew libs could be stupid, but who pays full price for a Harbor Freight Generator?  Holy Crap!  Don't they know those things go on sale every other month?  Also someone should mention what all you can run with 3.5 Chinese kilowats, before they blow up their fridges with 90 VAC.


Full price? Yes, that's full price -- for the wrong generator.

https://www.harborfreight.com/3500-watt-super-quiet-inverter-generator-63584.html

They paid a premium for a "super quiet" inverter generator that's not powerful enough to run one house, and they're using it to run two houses. I paid $599 for a Harbor Fright 7500 watt generator that's enough to run the complete essentials of my house even in winter. It will do my well pump, boiler, lights, and a toaster over or microwave, with plenty left over to run lights if I don't go crazy. As for not being able to call 9-1-1 if the power goes out -- that's why I still have a landline telephone, with an old-fashoned phone that runs off the phone line and doesn't need external power.

For $100 less, these morons could have bought a generator that puts out more than twice the power AND is California CARB-compliant.

https://www.harborfreight.com/9000-watt-max-starting-extra-long-life-gas-powered-generator-carb-63968.html
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Angel Eyes on November 07, 2019, 11:51:35 AM
Quote
... filling their bathtub with water to flush their toilets.

Huh?  Water pumping stations also had their power cut?
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: K Frame on November 07, 2019, 11:54:15 AM
"California CARB compliant"

I have a funny feeling that California will be banning all portable gasoline powered generators very, very soon...

Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: WLJ on November 07, 2019, 11:55:30 AM
"California CARB compliant"

I have a funny feeling that California will be banning all portable gasoline powered generators very, very soon...



With a small print exemption for the elites
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: 230RN on November 07, 2019, 05:45:37 PM
dogmush smartassed:

Quote
Also someone should mention what all you can run with 3.5 Chinese kilowatts, before they blow up their fridges with 90 VAC.

<giggle giggle>  ...chinese kilowatts

Ben wisdomed:

Quote
...that's why I still have a landline telephone, with an old-fashoned phone that runs off the phone line and doesn't need external power.

Terry sycophanted:

Me, too.


Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Fly320s on November 08, 2019, 07:46:47 AM
dogmush smartassed:

<giggle giggle>  ...chinese kilowatts

Ben wisdomed:

Terry sycophanted:

Me, too.




You can't just go around verbing new words.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: WLJ on November 08, 2019, 08:56:04 AM
You can't just go around verbing new words.

Better than inventing new genders on the fly
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: 230RN on November 08, 2019, 09:25:13 AM
Better than inventing new genders on the fly

Zip it, WLJ.

Oh, and 90VAC is 127 Peak Volts in China and the whole rest of the world, so how can anybody complain about that?

Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Fly320s on November 08, 2019, 09:35:54 AM
Better than inventing new genders on the fly

Aint nobody inventing nothing on me.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: WLJ on November 08, 2019, 09:40:38 AM
Zip it, WLJ.

Oh, and 90VAC is 127 Peak Volts in China and the whole rest of the world, so how can anybody complain about that?

People complain about words being invented on the fly but the left turns around invents genders on the fly.

Anyhow

So these things are only putting out a steady 90v? I'm kind of in the dark about generators. (that pun was totally by chance btw)

Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: WLJ on November 08, 2019, 09:48:18 AM
Besides I kind of enjoy some of the the more inventive made up words
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: 230RN on November 08, 2019, 10:18:27 AM
"So these things are only putting out a steady 90v? I'm kind of in the dark about generators. (that pun was totally by chance btw)."

I think (without putting words in his mouth) what dogmush was getting at was that the Chinese would be "stretching" things in order to claim 3.5 kilowatts.   I thought "Chinese kilowatts" was pretty funny.

If so, then trying to put an actual load of 3.5 kW on their generator would load it down too much and force it to put out only 90VAC.

Ninety VAC on your refrigerator motor would not be enough to turn your refrigerator motor at its full speed.

If it isn't spinning at full speed, it is not generating a "back voltage" high enough to limit the input current at 90VAC.  (Remenber that  every motor is a generator and every generator is a motor.)

Therefore the refrigerator motor would burn up.

This can be illustrated by taking it to the extreme points, that is, by completely stalling a motor, so that the back-voltage (the so-called "back-EMF") has to be zero.

So essentially the full supplied voltage is applied to the stalled motor without being opposed by any back voltage and it will probably burn up unless there is enough plain old resistance in it to hold the current down.

To illustrate, I have several small 220 Volt computer fans I run at 110 Volts, but they are "impedance Protected" (read "resistance protected") so they won't burn out even if totally stalled.  The label actually says "Impedance Protected."  (You can loosely think of "impedance" as being "resistance" in AC circuits.  Loosely.)

Bear in mind that dogmush's remarks were in jest, although theoretically plausible, so take all this with a grain of salt.

Terry, 230RN

I use these at 110V because they are dead silent.  They just sort of move air around a little without the full-voltage fan noise.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: dogmush on November 08, 2019, 10:39:46 AM
Terry is correct.  I was implying that many chinese things don't achieve their "rated" outputs.  Cheaper electronic and electrical things from china are notorious for this. So the joke was if you actually tried to pull 3.5 kW from that (American kW, if you will) it would fail and provide low voltage, and destroy your things.  They are *supposed* to put out 220/110V 60hz AC.

FWIW I have an 8750 HF Generator.  The engine is a direct copy of a Honda (by direct, I mean I can put Honda parts on it), but when hooked to a load bank and spun really pushed, I get about 7.5kW before it just gives up, and only about 7.3 kW before the voltage starts wandering.  I'm fine with it, because I knew going into it that it the rating was more of a guideline than a hard rule.

Same thing with a couple VFD's I have.  I buy about 1-2hp more drive than the motor I plan to attach to it, and it works fine.  Try to run a 3hp motor on a 3hp Chinese VFD, and you should have a fire extinguisher handy.  Even having to spec up the stuff, Chinese components are cheaper than "smaller" US, European, or Japanese ones.  Slave labor will do that for a business, I guess.

I recommend HF generators for occasional use, because they are cheap, and work well if you realize you are buying ~80% of the generator on the label.  Except the two stroke one.  That things a POS.
Title: Re: Do Something About Wildfires! Okay, We Will.
Post by: Ben on November 12, 2019, 10:30:12 AM
Ha! From the Washington Post no less!  :laugh:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/11/11/pge-helped-fund-careers-calif-governor-his-wife-now-he-accuses-utility-corporate-greed/