Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Ben on January 08, 2020, 02:49:35 PM
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Ben's rant of the week:
I haven't done any shopping in OR since the first of the year. Went today and got charged for my freakin' bags! Apparently OR has gone full CA on the "no bags" thing. I think they even one-upped them (unless CA law recently changed) as I also had to pay for a bag at D&B Supply (farm supply store).
In CA the "charge for a bag' thing was in grocery stores, Walmarts, etc., but you could go to Home Depot and use all the bags you wanted. Seems OR made it universal. At Albertson's when the checker charged me (paper bags only*) and told me about the law, I said, "Gall dang commie-pinko hippies! Can we not just drop a low-yield tactical nuke on Portland and be done with it?!?", which at least in Eastern OR, got a few chuckles and one "Right on!" from people in line with me. Had I said that in CA, I would have been carted off to re-education.
FTR, I don't mind bringing my own reusable bag at all - I even find it better than crappy biodegradeable plastic bags. I just can't stand arrogant commies shoving it down my throat because they know better than me. Jackasses.
/rant
* Interestingly, the whole reason I stopped at Albertsons was to also pick up some fried chicken with my groceries. The chicken came in a free paper bag.
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At least you didn't pay sales tax. Or has that changed too?
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I'm tired of cleaning plastic bags out my landscaping and pond, I'd be fine with them being banned. I still remember the days before plastic bags. Paper bags were reused for everything too.
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I'm tired of cleaning plastic bags out my landscaping and pond, I'd be fine with them being banned. I still remember the days before plastic bags. Paper bags were reused for everything too.
I don't think I can get on board with your threshold for stuff to ban.
I do like paper bags for some things, but they absolutely suck for others.
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At least you didn't pay sales tax. Or has that changed too?
No, still no sales tax. :)
I rarely see plastic bags floating around the countryside here, and my local podunk grocery practically does a "one bag per item" thing. As we have discussed here before, plastic bags are incredibly reusable for all kinds of stuff. Of course as they've been going to thinner and thinner, with more biodegradeabilty, it has become harder to reuse them.
The first thing I did with the paper bag I got for my groceries today is pick it up and watch it rip. They don't make those like they used to either. Plus I guess the checker didn't want to charge me for two bags, so stuffed the one bag full.
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I can't stand grocery store-quality plastic bags. They are only good for light-duty trash can use. When I go to the store, I bring my own strong, canvas bags so I only need two large bags instead of 12 plastic ones.
Still, I would never support a ban or tax or fee on plastic bags.
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I do not want the government imposing more regulations then they already do on my or the private transactions I conduct with businesses.
That said, even from my not-large household, we bag up and get rid of an impressive amount of polymer trash every week. Lots of packaging and containers, the odd product that's failed, scrap from home projects, etc.
I don't really like sending all of it to a landfill. We do not have recycling services here.
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If you lived in the panhandle and went shopping in a neighboring state you wouldn't have that problem...yet. ;)
bob
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I do not want the government imposing more regulations then they already do on my or the private transactions I conduct with businesses.
That said, even from my not-large household, we bag up and get rid of an impressive amount of polymer trash every week. Lots of packaging and containers, the odd product that's failed, scrap from home projects, etc.
I don't really like sending all of it to a landfill. We do not have recycling services here.
All the anti-theft packaging on everything makes for a lot of volume in trash. However, we aren't running out of room for landfills. I would still love to see us burn it for power rather than bury it. Besides, recycling isn't all that cheap. I hear California is having trouble figuring out where to send its recycled materials.
I like the plastic bags to some extent. I save them (the ones that don't get wet from holding cold stuff) and reuse them. Mostly I reuse them for taking drinks to work or using them as trash bags in the little bathroom trash cans.
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Well, good for all you noble, robust, physically fit folks who don't mind carrying paper sacks around.
I have to have handles so I can use the handrails on the stairs and I have to ask the sackers not to pack the bags too heavy.
So poor little old me, snif, snif.
There've been noises here in Commierado about eliminating plastic sacks so I expect to see it here soon, too, since we have a utopian bandwagon-jumping communist legislature now. Oh, wait, no, that's "liberal" or "progressive," since there haven't been any communists in this country since the 1950s.
Well, I didn't get this old by not being able to solve problems, but please don't make this yet another problem for me to solve.
Faint hope, huh?
Terry
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That said, even from my not-large household, we bag up and get rid of an impressive amount of polymer trash every week. Lots of packaging and containers, the odd product that's failed, scrap from home projects, etc.
I would not at all mind getting rid of all that plastic clamshell crap that's ten times larger than the item it's holding. Not just from the waste, but from always nearly or actually slicing my hand open getting crap out.
Even Amazon does that frustration free stuff, but I always still get items that are practically lost in the too large box and bubble wrap.
I no longer have recycling either - everything goes in the trash, or I burn a lot of stuff now.
That Panhandle crack will go unanswered. :P :laugh:
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Plastic bags for me! I loop them over my scooter's handles to bring them from the car to the house rather than make 100 trips then, we then use them for the cat poop we scoop twice a day (we put multiple scoopings in each bag so the bags aren't wasted on a "small load").
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Besides, recycling isn't all that cheap. I hear California is having trouble figuring out where to send its recycled materials.
Yep. Recycling isn't always as "green" as some people think. Once the materials are sorted, processed and bundled, they become essentially a raw material. Then, somebody has to buy it. Often there is a surplus, or virgin raw material prices are cheaper, so it ends up in a landfill anyway.
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In regards to the Panhandle, more and more cities in western Washington are banning single-use plastic bags in the grocery stores. You either bring your own, or are charged per paper bag. I wish the stores that followed it would post this policy on the front door. I would then have a fighting chance to remember to bring in the reusable bag from the truck.
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In regards to the Panhandle, more and more cities in western Washington are banning single-use plastic bags in the grocery stores. You either bring your own, or are charged per paper bag. I wish the stores that followed it would post this policy on the front door. I would then have a fighting chance to remember to bring in the reusable bag from the truck.
Oh, you mean Washifornia? :P ;)
bob
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When they outlaw them here I'll just buy my own … About $20 for a near lifetime supply … :old:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Members-Mark-Black-T-Shirt-Carryout-Bags-1-000-ct-Best-Plastic-Quality/352552845005?epid=17034146429&hash=item5215c97ecd:g:AEEAAOSwLnRcO6e5
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When they outlaw them here I'll just buy my own … About $20 for a near lifetime supply … :old:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Members-Mark-Black-T-Shirt-Carryout-Bags-1-000-ct-Best-Plastic-Quality/352552845005?epid=17034146429&hash=item5215c97ecd:g:AEEAAOSwLnRcO6e5
Thank you. $18.56 for 1000 of them with handles. Have you tried them? Are they strong enough to carry a gallon of milk, do you know?
I'm wondering: if grocery stores can eliminate the expense of the plastic bags, will they reduce their general prices commensurately?
Note to self (1): Find out where King Soopers (Kroger, City Market) currently buys its plastic bags and buy a crapload for myself.
Note to self (2): Legislatures used to be established for the health, benefit, and welfare of the citizens. Nowadays they're just a pain in the ass.
Seems like we elect these people as "lawmakers" and sure as *expletive deleted*it, they get to the capitols and make laws, godammit.
Terry, 230RN
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Probably the biggest advantage of paper bags is that you can cut them in half, then separate the folds and you have two rough torso/head targets. My shooting mentor called it range origami.
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You're probably one of those people that thinks he's capable of pumping his own gas too. =D
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When they outlaw them here I'll just buy my own … About $20 for a near lifetime supply … :old:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Members-Mark-Black-T-Shirt-Carryout-Bags-1-000-ct-Best-Plastic-Quality/352552845005?epid=17034146429&hash=item5215c97ecd:g:AEEAAOSwLnRcO6e5
Which is why stores like them. They are very very cheap.
I also think they are not nearly as bad as leftists claim. These little plastic bags are not filling up your landfills.
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Plastic bags for groceries have to go.
I used to be po'd at "people" for seeing them littered around the roads and stuck in trees.
Then in dawned on me where they come from.
Garbage trucks.
Can't tell you how many times Ive seen debris blowing out of a truck transporting garbage.
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You're probably one of those people that thinks he's capable of pumping his own gas too. =D
Now Ben will start a new thread bitching about Oregon gas-pumpers ...
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Now Ben will start a new thread bitching about Oregon gas-pumpers ...
Naw, I'm cool - if I did want to overpay for gas in OR instead of buying it in ID, everybody in Eastern OR already pumps their own gas. =D
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I'm tired of cleaning plastic bags out my landscaping and pond, I'd be fine with them being banned. I still remember the days before plastic bags. Paper bags were reused for everything too.
Disposable bags for food are safest. Re-usable bags for groceries increase risk of food poisoning. This is one reason I am opposed to plastic bag bans of any sort. The other reason is that I despise the government micromanaging every detail of our lives.
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Disposable bags for food are safest. Re-usable bags for groceries increase risk of food poisoning. This is one reason I am opposed to plastic bag bans of any sort. The other reason is that I despise the government micromanaging every detail of our lives.
The plastic grocery/trash bags littering the whole country and filling up landfills are a classic example of the "tragedy of the commons".
Nobody wants to give up their convenience so the roadsides etc are littered with trash.
I use paper almost exclusively, it's biodegradable and is a renewable resource.
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Disposable bags for food are safest. Re-usable bags for groceries increase risk of food poisoning. This is one reason I am opposed to plastic bag bans of any sort. The other reason is that I despise the government micromanaging every detail of our lives.
You know you don't put the raw meat directly into the bag, right? Also, the cloth/canvas bags can be washed.
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Also, the cloth/canvas bags can be washed.
And what are the consequences of that to the environment?
If we're going to talk about how bad the plastic bags are, you need to take into account ALL the consequences from using the "reusable" bags.
If I recall correctly, to counterbalance to costs (environmental!) to produce/clean/etc.... the reusable bags, the bags would have be used over (I'm going on the low end here) 500 times. How likely do you think you're going to use that bag that many times? With a weekly trip to the store, we're talking 10 years of using the same bag....
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Save the bags and use them to start your tire fire.
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Thank you. $18.56 for 1000 of them with handles. Have you tried them? Are they strong enough to carry a gallon of milk, do you know?
Terry, 230RN
I bought a box of this brand last year and they are stronger than normal grocery story bags … :cool:
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And what are the consequences of that to the environment?
If we're going to talk about how bad the plastic bags are, you need to take into account ALL the consequences from using the "reusable" bags.
If I recall correctly, to counterbalance to costs (environmental!) to produce/clean/etc.... the reusable bags, the bags would have be used over (I'm going on the low end here) 500 times. How likely do you think you're going to use that bag that many times? With a weekly trip to the store, we're talking 10 years of using the same bag....
I've never washed my reusable bags, I've had a few for over ten years. I also don't put unwrapped meat in them either from the butcher counter. I don't put my veggies in a plastic bag either in the produce section, figure all the all the mommas with snot nosed crotch fruits touch them at the store, so I rinse them at home before I consume them. So far I haven't caught dysentery.
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I bought a box of this brand* last year and they are stronger than normal grocery store bags … :cool:
Really good to know, and thanks ! When and if it ever comes down to it here in COmmierado, I'lll have a solution ready-to-go.
I think the environmental effects of the plastic bags at least as used by King Soopers (Kroger, City Market) is pretty minimal and is wayyy overblown. We do have laws about covering trash in transit to the dump, after all.
I keep a wad of them in my car for various things and and I was surprised that they disintegrate all by themselves just from the heat in the car... not even in nice wet bio-rich soil. Just in air and heat and light in the back of my station wagon.
I don't know about grocery bags hanging in trees... maybe one or two after a high wind or something along with other windblown junk, but not normally and certainly not as routinely as implied. I hate to offend anyone but I'm about ready to call BS on that one. Or maybe just "exaggeration for the sake of a good story."
Yeah, that's the ticket. Triggered by one, told to be ten.
Thanks again, Chester32141.
Terry, 230RN
*He's referring to these, in Reply #15:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Members-Mark-Black-T-Shirt-Carryout-Bags-1-000-ct-Best-Plastic-Quality/352552845005?epid=17034146429&hash=item5215c97ecd:g:AEEAAO
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For the record I really don't want the bags banned, just tired of cleaning them up in my yard and pond.
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You know you don't put the raw meat directly into the bag, right? Also, the cloth/canvas bags can be washed.
People aren't going to wash their reusable bags after every time they put their groceries in them.
And, as a result, plastic bag bans increase food-borne illnesses and related deaths.
That is what happened when San Francisco banned them:
https://law.utexas.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/25/klick_grocery_bags_and_foodborne_illness.pdf
Plastic bags are much safer.
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^
I kind of suspected that on a "General Principles" kind of thing.
Take that, you do-gooder life-meddlers !
Of course, San Francisco has all kinds of germs floating around everywhere anyhow.
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People aren't going to wash their reusable bags after every time they put their groceries in them.
And, as a result, plastic bag bans increase food-borne illnesses and related deaths.
That is what happened when San Francisco banned them:
https://law.utexas.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/25/klick_grocery_bags_and_foodborne_illness.pdf
Plastic bags are much safer.
Was the numbers of food borne illnesses higher before plastic shopping bags? I remember then first coming out in the mid 80's in the grocery stores back home.
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Was the numbers of food borne illnesses higher before plastic shopping bags? I remember then first coming out in the mid 80's in the grocery stores back home.
I don't know.
It spiked in SF and other cities after plastic bag bans though.
Including more people dying.
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I don't know.
It spiked in SF and other cities after plastic bag bans though.
Including more people dying.
Well, it that really a bad thing?
bob
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Plastic bags for groceries have to go.
I used to be po'd at "people" for seeing them littered around the roads and stuck in trees.
Then in dawned on me where they come from.
Garbage trucks.
Can't tell you how many times Ive seen debris blowing out of a truck transporting garbage.
That sounds like a correctable problem with local politicians cared to do something about it. I am confident plastic grocery bags were not the only trash blowing out.
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If plastic shopping bags are outlawed, how the hell am I going to clean up when Seren takes a *expletive deleted*it?
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^
Tough ***t, Mike.
The trouble is, these do-gooder life-meddlers seem to think what's good for them ought to be good for everybody.
So they run for public office so they can force everybody to do it "their way."
Hence Ben's thread title sentiment: "Drop dead and go to hell, Oregon."
Effing control freaks, is all they are.
Frankly, I'd rather we elect de-control freaks.
Sanitation and germiness and convenience aside, BTR kind of hit the nail on the head with:
The other reason is that I despise the government micromanaging every detail of our lives.
Terry, 230RN
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The plastic grocery/trash bags littering the whole country and filling up landfills are a classic example of the "tragedy of the commons".
Nobody wants to give up their convenience so the roadsides etc are littered with trash.
I use paper almost exclusively, it's biodegradable and is a renewable resource.
First, plastic grocery bags are not filling up our landfills. They may have volume when blowing around, but they are thin and don't actually take up any space. IMO, road sides littered with trash is a behavioral problem and won't be fixed by banning specific plastic things. I agree that trash on the road sides looks bad. I get stuff blown in my yard, but it is mostly napkins and little plastic food/candy wrappers, not the bags.
I would like to see some comparisons on how long the paper and dyes last in a landfill versus the plastic bags. Non-disposable and repairable materials would be a better choice. From what others said they have to be cleaned and maintained which people won't always do. That makes me wonder if they clean their kitchens.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWbhhrRBHns
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As I mentioned, they seem to decay into little bitty pieces just sitting in the back of my station wagon with no moist soil or birds picking at them. I was quite surprised when I first discovered that they were car-o-degradable.
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Effing control freaks, is all they are.
And as with everything "they" stick their noses into (this, electric cars, CARB gas cans, etc.), it's always about the stick instead of the carrot. They could easily find ways to incentivize reusable bags, or do passive enforcement through education (not scolding education, but, "this is how X can make your life better/easier" education).
Instead, it's always bans, fines, and "The Earth will die in 10 years and you're making it happen!" crap.
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As I mentioned, they seem to decay into little bitty pieces just sitting in the back of my station wagon with no moist soil or birds picking at them. I was quite surprised when I first discovered that they were car-o-degradable.
I've seen the same thing. I bet that is UV or heat related. Might not break down as quickly buried in a low oxygen environment?
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"I would like to see some comparisons on how long the paper and dyes last in a landfill versus the plastic bags."
What most people don't realize is that land fills, especially modern containment landfills, are more time capsule/item preservation than they are biodegradation zones.
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What most people don't realize is that land fills, especially modern containment landfills, are more time capsule/item preservation than they are biodegradation zones.
When it makes financial sense they'll probably eventually become mines.
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I've fantasied about archeologists 5000 years from now trying to identify some of the artifacts from one of today's dumps.
Probably most of them would be attributed to religious relics and papers (or the 7020AD equivalent thereof) would be published, and great scientific arguments about the real purpose of a burned-out 100 Watt light bulb would ensue.
"Nonsense !" parJarel shouted when he finished the latest theory on those curious glass relics. "Why those lectrons would never be able to get up that spiral on the little end of the thing ! Modern mokides could, but those mythical lectrons? Never ! Where did that idiot get his Hyperdoctorate degree anyway?"
Terry, 230RN
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"Probably most of them would be attributed to religious relics and papers (or the 7020AD equivalent thereof) would be published, and great scientific arguments about the real purpose of a burned-out 100 Watt light bulb would ensue."
Ever read the humor book Motel of the Mysteries?
It's a book written from exactly that kind of point of view. It's extremely humorous what people thing things from the ancient civilization of Usa were used for.
Not sure if it's still in print, but it's well worth finding it: https://books.google.com/books/about/Motel_of_the_Mysteries.html?id=dO3vf15Gxd0C
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I kept thinking about how fun Motel of the Mysteries was... so I ordered it from Amazon.
$12.60 (price + tax), and here tomorrow.
I need another book like I need a hole in the head, but hey, maybe I can use pages torn out of the book and crumpled up to fill the hole in my head.
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When it makes financial sense they'll probably eventually become mines.
I've often wondered about this very thing. Could major landfills that have been on existence for a long time yield profitable amounts of useful materials?
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I kept thinking about how fun Motel of the Mysteries was... so I ordered it from Amazon.
$12.60 (price + tax), and here tomorrow.
I need another book like I need a hole in the head, but hey, maybe I can use pages torn out of the book and crumpled up to fill the hole in my head.
https://www.amazon.com/Motel-Mysteries-David-Macaulay/dp/0395284252/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Motel+of+the+Mysteries&qid=1578951428&sr=8-1
Amazon has it. Kindle also.
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Possibly someday but imagine the number of unsolved missing persons and murders that will be provided new evidence.
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https://www.amazon.com/Motel-Mysteries-David-Macaulay/dp/0395284252/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Motel+of+the+Mysteries&qid=1578951428&sr=8-1
Amazon has it. Kindle also.
Yeah.... that was the entire point of the post of mine that you quoted... to mention that I purchased it....
Senility. So tragic... :rofl:
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"Could major landfills that have been on existence for a long time yield profitable amounts of useful materials?"
Depends on how desperate the need is for what is being mined...
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Yeah.... that was the entire point of the post of mine that you quoted... to mention that I purchased it....
Senility. So tragic... :rofl:
I looked it up so I could add it to my wishlist and take a second look later. =)
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"Could major landfills that have been on existence for a long time yield profitable amounts of useful materials?"
Depends on how desperate the need is for what is being mined...
I was thinking along those lines as well. The price of the materials would have to go up a lot. I hope by the time we get to that point there will be new ways to pulling the stuff out.
Thinking about what was said about landfills, the main landfill I use for work is one of those sealed landfills. They will even take oils and liquids. They just have to mix them with stuff to solidify it before it gets buried.
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Wind blew a bag into the top of my front yard tree, going to have to listen to that all winter.
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"Probably most of them would be attributed to religious relics and papers (or the 7020AD equivalent thereof) would be published, and great scientific arguments about the real purpose of a burned-out 100 Watt light bulb would ensue."
Ever read the humor book Motel of the Mysteries?
It's a book written from exactly that kind of point of view. It's extremely humorous what people thing things from the ancient civilization of Usa were used for.
Not sure if it's still in print, but it's well worth finding it: https://books.google.com/books/about/Motel_of_the_Mysteries.html?id=dO3vf15Gxd0C
I never read that book, but I remember laughing at a report of some expedition or another struggling to interpret the purposes of some of the artifacts.
They just looked like kids' toys to me and my mind kited off on that. This thread rekindled that thinking.
So I wikied it.
The concept of it being a hotel room is interesting. I wonder how the author developed such a well-preserved hotel room concept.
I know I diddled with that idea when I was in college, late 1950s, early 1960s, and the "motel book" publication date was October 11, 1979.
Thanks for the info. Parallel thinking.
Terry
Related, look up "Venus of Willendorf" for its archeological dating: 30,000 years old.
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I'm well familiar with the various prehistoric Venus figurines, and quite a bit of the art from that period. I studied Art History in college. Long time ago, but I still love art.