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Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MechAg94 on January 14, 2020, 05:30:05 PM



Title: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: MechAg94 on January 14, 2020, 05:30:05 PM
https://www.foxla.com/news/60-people-treated-after-plane-dumps-jet-fuel-near-several-schools-in-la-area

Quote
LOS ANGELES - Jet fuel dumped from a Delta airliner preparing to make an emergency landing at Los Angeles International Airport fell over a wide swath of the area, sending hazardous-materials teams to multiple schools,but only minor injuries were reported and nobody was hospitalized.

Officials say 60 people have been treated including elementary school students after a plane dumped fuel on the school's playground near Cudahy and South Los Angeles schools on Tuesday.

Quote
ďShortly after takeoff, Flight 89 from LAX to Shanghai experienced an engine issue requiring the aircraft to return quickly to LAX. The aircraft landed safely after a release of fuel, which was required as part of normal procedure to reach a safe landing weight. We are in touch with Los Angeles World Airports and the LA County Fire Department and share concerns regarding reported minor injuries to adults and children at a school in the area.Ē

Do you think they will demand jets start landing fully fueled? 


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: BobR on January 14, 2020, 06:00:13 PM
This makes me wonder why they didn't go over the ocean to dump fuel? We would go out over the deep blue, stay above 6K and dump away unless it was a get on the ground right now type of emergency. I only had one of those, a tailpipe fire out by San Clemente Island and we trailed smoke all the way to Vandenburg to land. Our fire suppression system wouldn't reach the tailpipe. :(

bob


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: Ben on January 14, 2020, 06:34:30 PM
This makes me wonder why they didn't go over the ocean to dump fuel? We would go out over the deep blue, stay above 6K and dump away unless it was a get on the ground right now type of emergency. I only had one of those, a tailpipe fire out by San Clemente Island and we trailed smoke all the way to Vandenburg to land. Our fire suppression system wouldn't reach the tailpipe. :(

bob

San Clemente to Vandenberg? What kept you guys from landing at Mugu or San Nic (I think the outer landing field at Nic is long enough)?


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: BobR on January 14, 2020, 06:55:31 PM
San Clemente to Vandenberg? What kept you guys from landing at Mugu or San Nic (I think the outer landing field at Nic is long enough)?

16000 ft runway at Vandenberg, we had already turned north to head toward home/land by the time we figured it was not going to burn itself out. So Vandenberg it was. Worked out fairly nice, we were able to throw a new turbine in a maintenance van and drive it down there to change it out. Our rear turbine scavenge pump bit the bullet and dumped oil into the tailpipe. The only time we ever went to San Nicholas was to drop mines. We would do our 9 plane mine laying exercise there.


bob


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: Ben on January 15, 2020, 05:17:23 AM
Ah, okay. I thought it was a "put down now" thing. Vandenberg does have a luxurious runway. I always cracked up when we landed our little puddle jumper on the numbers there and still had a half day's worth of runway left.  :laugh:


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: BobR on January 15, 2020, 05:46:05 AM
Ah, okay. I thought it was a "put down now" thing. Vandenberg does have a luxurious runway. I always cracked up when we landed our little puddle jumper on the numbers there and still had a half day's worth of runway left.  :laugh:

It was a great runway. We could do a full stop landing, stay on the runway and do an aborted takeoff and still have enough runway left to stay on the runway and take off to go do it again. We loved to do pilot training flights down there because we could get in a ton of runway work. :)

bob


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: Jamisjockey on January 15, 2020, 07:13:45 AM
I expect some changes coming to this section of the 7110.65
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc_html/chap9_section_4.html
Notably:
Quote
9.4.3
ALTITUDE ASSIGNMENT
If an aircraft is dumping fuel in IFR conditions, assign an altitude at least 2,000 feet above the highest obstacle within 5 miles of the route or pattern being flown.

I've done this procedure dozens of times in my career.  This is the first time I've ever heard a problem.
I'm real curious if it was last minute.  Depending on the type of emergency, some will just burn fuel rather than dump. 


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: MechAg94 on January 15, 2020, 07:21:34 AM
LAX is right on the water.  Do they have landing approaches coming from the ocean side?  

I flew in there once before, but I was thinking the approach came in from the East (it was maybe 2005 so my memory may be fuzzy).  All I remember is looking out the window as we turned into the approach and seeing lights for a couple other jets apparently landing just ahead of us.  


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: BobR on January 15, 2020, 07:29:09 AM
I expect some changes coming to this section of the 7110.65
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc_html/chap9_section_4.html
Notably:
I've done this procedure dozens of times in my career.  This is the first time I've ever heard a problem.
I'm real curious if it was last minute.  Depending on the type of emergency, some will just burn fuel rather than dump. 

The news I heard this morning said they had a compressor stall on climbout so he decided to turn back. If he had just left and was heading to China he was probably overweight for a landing, or at least in the range where an inspection would have to be done for an overweight landing so he probably figured he could dump fuel and not make an overweight landing. But we weren't there so we will probably never know, it is all supposition at this point. BTW, I have bathed in JP4/5 in the distant past and I seem to be OK. ;)

bob


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: Hawkmoon on January 15, 2020, 08:49:19 AM

I'm real curious if it was last minute.  Depending on the type of emergency, some will just burn fuel rather than dump. 

Sometimes that's because the particular aircraft doesn't have provision for dumping fuel. IIRC, the Boeing 737 is one that doesn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_dumping


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: Hawkmoon on January 15, 2020, 08:51:03 AM
BTW, I have bathed in JP4/5 in the distant past and I seem to be OK. ;)


 ??? And yet you are a member here ...  >:D


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: Doggy Daddy on January 15, 2020, 09:05:36 AM
??? And yet you are a member here ...  >:D

A member that bathes!


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: Fly320s on January 15, 2020, 11:36:18 AM
Depending on the type of emergency, some will just burn fuel rather than dump. 

Us small boys can't dump fuel.  I don't think any narrow-body can.

Quote
LAX is right on the water.  Do they have landing approaches coming from the ocean side? 

Rarely.  The seabreeze is pretty consistant.


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: 230RN on January 15, 2020, 12:06:46 PM
Things I learned today:

(1) Fuel dumps are not for purposes of reducing fire risk, which is what I always thought.  (Although I suppose this may be a factor in some cases.)

(2) Dumped fuel can interfere with other aircraft's engine functions, so isolation and altitude is necessary-desirable.

(3) Jet fuel is not necessarily dangerous by contact. ("Treated," apparently, can mean washing off of fuel on skin.)

(4)  If maximum fueled takeoff weight is 105% of maximum landing weight, fuel dump systems are sorta-kinda necessary for long range aircraft --apparently on a design-by-design and customer order basis.

Hm.  Ooookay.  Now I'm four three days ahead of myself from  the "learn one thing a day" perspective.

Thanks, all.

Terry, Groundlubber, 230RN


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: MikeB on January 15, 2020, 12:14:24 PM

(3) Jet fuel is not necessarily dangerous by contact. ("Treated," apparently, can mean washing off of fuel on skin.)

Itís pretty much Kerosene. So donít drink it or get it in your eyes and it isnít really that big of a deal.


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: 230RN on January 15, 2020, 12:43:01 PM
Itís pretty much Kerosene. So donít drink it or get it in your eyes and it isnít really that big of a deal.

That's what I always figured, so it's not a new "learn."  I could never stand the smell of kerosene or diesel/jet fuel (or diesel/jet exhaust) so I'll never buy a jet plane. :eyeroll:

I used to hate getting stuck behind a transit bus until they started stacking the exhaust at the roof instead of at ground-level... so apparently I'm not the only one who hates it.

Terry, 230RN

Fun:  Afterburner fuel dump for display purposes.

https://youtu.be/a2L7WP8MAzo


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: BobR on January 15, 2020, 01:56:16 PM
<<<<<<<<<

I am so glad the media bought the "fuel dump" story. Saved a lot of embarrassing questions to the Command Center. ;)



https://sierrahotel.net/collections/chemtrail-dept/funny-aviator-stuff

bob


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: MechAg94 on January 15, 2020, 02:05:17 PM
Itís pretty much Kerosene. So donít drink it or get it in your eyes and it isnít really that big of a deal.
I am picturing a bunch of kids on the playground looking up at the big jet moving away trailing fuel as kerosene rains out of the sky. 


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: 230RN on January 15, 2020, 03:13:34 PM
<<<<<<<<<

I am so glad the media bought the "fuel dump" story. Saved a lot of embarrassing questions to the Command Center. ;)



https://sierrahotel.net/collections/chemtrail-dept/funny-aviator-stuff

bob

Roffle.

What's "SH" stand for?  I'm sure it's perfectly obvious and I'll dopeslap myself when you tell me, but I'm drawing a blank. :facepalm:

Terry


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: BobR on January 15, 2020, 03:26:51 PM
Roffle.

What's "SH" stand for?  I'm sure it's perfectly obvious and I'll dopeslap myself when you tell me, but I'm drawing a blank. :facepalm:

Terry

*expletive deleted*it (Shyte) Hot. Something pilots think they are at one or more times in their career.

What do you call two Pilipino Pilots walking across the ramp?

A pair of pliers! ;)

bob


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: 230RN on January 15, 2020, 04:12:11 PM
^ "*expletive deleted*it (Shyte) Hot. Something pilots think they are at one or more times in their career."

I'd'a never thunk of that.  You mean like Lieutenant Colonel Arthur "Bud" Holland?

Viewer discretion advised.

https://youtu.be/182AepOJjMs (1:21)

I guess  you can't stay up if your lift is all horizontal, hey?  You've got to get pretty ballistic to make that one work.

The odd thing is he had an advisor aboard who was going to report on his piloting safety since he had a number of prior complaints about his "sierra hotel" extreme behavior.

Refretfully,

Terry, 230RN


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: BobR on January 15, 2020, 05:13:47 PM
All too often though when the SH pilot overflies his ability it is not only he who pays the price. The accident investigation on this one brought a lot of behavior to light that should have never happened and it started long before the crash. It sucks when your friends die needlessly. :(

https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19800417-0

https://www.flickr.com/photos/inter-island_helicopters/7192403022/

Enough of that, let's get back to little kids running around the playground screaming and trying to escape the death rain falling from the sky, I can get behind that one!! :)



bob



Title: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: p12 on January 15, 2020, 06:58:24 PM
^ "*expletive deleted*it (Shyte) Hot. Something pilots think they are at one or more times in their career."

I'd'a never thunk of that.  You mean like Lieutenant Colonel Arthur "Bud" Holland?

Viewer discretion advised.

https://youtu.be/182AepOJjMs (1:21)

I guess  you can't stay up if your lift is all horizontal, hey?  You've got to get pretty ballistic to make that one work.

The odd thing is he had an advisor aboard who was going to report on his piloting safety since he had a number of prior complaints about his "sierra hotel" extreme behavior.

Refretfully,

Terry, 230RN

Interesting that came up. Col. Robert Wolff was on that plane. I knew his folks and know his widow. My son dated his daughter for a short while.

His parents lived in Lubbock and went to my church. Nan and her daughter Whitney moved there after this crash. He was retired. Upon the completion of that flight he was out. His wife and daughter were waiting in the car for him to land. They were packed and ready. Moving truck had already left. He was walking off that plane and out of the Air Force.

Suck is heavy on that deal.


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: Jamisjockey on January 16, 2020, 05:30:23 AM
Sometimes that's because the particular aircraft doesn't have provision for dumping fuel. IIRC, the Boeing 737 is one that doesn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_dumping

I didn't read the type ac from the article. I'm thinking internationals, like 77's and 78's.  The only smaller international flights we see at IAD are a few 75's and a brand new Neo flown by TAP.
I've had DLH and CCA both dump fuel or burn fuel before an emergency return. 
Domestic flights can still land our long runway loaded down.


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: Hawkmoon on January 16, 2020, 07:53:48 AM
I've had DLH and CCA both dump fuel or burn fuel before an emergency return. 
Domestic flights can still land our long runway loaded down.

Runway length is only part of the equation. Each aircraft has a maximum take-off weight and a maximum landing weight. For some, the maximum landing weight is significantly less than the maximum take-off weight. The reason is usually the concern that the undercarriage isn't robust enough to handle that amount of weight if the landing is at all rough.

Flys320s, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: Brad Johnson on January 16, 2020, 08:00:54 AM
Itís pretty much Kerosene. So donít drink it or get it in your eyes and it isnít really that big of a deal.

This. Growing up on a farm/ranch you all but bathe in the stuff on a daily basis. Short of drinking it, the only real medical problem might be some type of contact dermatitis. Even getting it in your eyes isn't a terribly big deal. Stings a bit but that's about it.

Brad


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: Jamisjockey on January 16, 2020, 08:16:14 AM
Correct.  Even if theyíre not going to break the plane, though, braking power is a concern.  Getting it stopped in time to not set the brakes on fire and all that.
Fun fact:  most of our go-around are caused by or are B738/9 series because they use the same brakes as the rest of the series, have an absurdly high landing speed, and need more runway.  They miss a lot of high speeds or run down the guy in front of them and go around a lot.


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: Fly320s on January 16, 2020, 12:55:24 PM
Runway length is only part of the equation. Each aircraft has a maximum take-off weight and a maximum landing weight. For some, the maximum landing weight is significantly less than the maximum take-off weight. The reason is usually the concern that the undercarriage isn't robust enough to handle that amount of weight if the landing is at all rough.

Flys320s, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Correct.  We can land over weight, but our takeoff weight isn't too much higher than our landing weight.  170,000lbs vs 142,000 pounds.  Wide bodies have a much greater difference.


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: Fly320s on January 16, 2020, 12:56:12 PM
Correct.  Even if theyíre not going to break the plane, though, braking power is a concern.  Getting it stopped in time to not set the brakes on fire and all that.
Fun fact:  most of our go-around are caused by or are B738/9 series because they use the same brakes as the rest of the series, have an absurdly high landing speed, and need more runway.  They miss a lot of high speeds or run down the guy in front of them and go around a lot.

You sure it isn't just Southwest pilots flying too fast?   =D :rofl:


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: Hawkmoon on January 16, 2020, 02:02:51 PM
Correct.  We can land over weight, but our takeoff weight isn't too much higher than our landing weight.  170,000lbs vs 142,000 pounds.  Wide bodies have a much greater difference.

Out of curiosity, how often do you actually take off at (or pretty close to) maximum takeoff weight?


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: Jamisjockey on January 16, 2020, 02:54:49 PM
You sure it isn't just Southwest pilots flying too fast?   =D :rofl:

Nah they would just say *expletive deleted*ck it and try to land with traffic on the rwy
UAL and AAL mostly


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: Fly320s on January 16, 2020, 04:46:48 PM
Out of curiosity, how often do you actually take off at (or pretty close to) maximum takeoff weight?

Not very often.  East coast to west coast flights are close to max weight of fuel, so with a full load of passengers we are pushing max takeoff weight.  Basically, only the long flights get close MTOW.  I've had plenty of flights where my takeoff weight was already below max landing weight.  And then there have been a few flights where we were under MTOW, but because it was a short flight, we were close to or even over max landing weight as we approached our destination.



Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: WLJ on January 17, 2020, 09:19:26 PM
Knew this was coming
Doesn't matter not one was hurt when there's money to be had

California teachers sue after jetliner dumps fuel on schools
https://www.wave3.com/2020/01/18/california-teachers-sue-after-jetliner-dumps-fuel-schools/


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: Hawkmoon on January 17, 2020, 10:13:25 PM
Knew this was coming
Doesn't matter not one was hurt when there's money to be had

California teachers sue after jetliner dumps fuel on schools
https://www.wave3.com/2020/01/18/california-teachers-sue-after-jetliner-dumps-fuel-schools/

Doesn't Gloria Allred have anything more important to do right now -- like sit in on Harvey Weinstein's trial?

Look at the faces on those teachers. They must have practiced those expressions in front of a mirror for hours.


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: Jamisjockey on January 18, 2020, 05:36:28 AM
Not very often.  East coast to west coast flights are close to max weight of fuel, so with a full load of passengers we are pushing max takeoff weight.  Basically, only the long flights get close MTOW.  I've had plenty of flights where my takeoff weight was already below max landing weight.  And then there have been a few flights where we were under MTOW, but because it was a short flight, we were close to or even over max landing weight as we approached our destination.



As a side note, UCA is terrible about not being at a safe landing weight.  They won't even take shortcuts on their local flights now, because they end up burning fuel.
They have a flight from State College, PA that burns fuel almost every time it gets to IAD, often times they wait until they're in the *expletive deleted*ing downwind or even getting turned on to tell us.


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: 230RN on January 18, 2020, 12:00:34 PM
So how do you weigh a plane when it's in the air?

Asking for a friend.


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: Ben on January 18, 2020, 12:09:16 PM
So how do you weigh a plane when it's in the air?

Asking for a friend.


With a computer.


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: Hawkmoon on January 18, 2020, 12:22:20 PM
So how do you weigh a plane when it's in the air?

Asking for a friend.


You put the scale on a very tall pile of concrete blocks.


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: BobR on January 18, 2020, 12:45:09 PM
So how do you weigh a plane when it's in the air?

Asking for a friend.


Cl = 2L ų (r ◊ V2 ◊ A), where L is the lift, r is the density, V is the velocity and A is the wing area.

I am sure there is someway to correlate lift coefficient to plane weight. Then all you have to do is slow down until your lift is no longer sufficient to keep you in the air and go from there. ;)

or

It's the maths, you know how much you weigh before you go (well airlines really don't, they use a lower number for passenger weight than they should IMO) and the only thing you should be losing is the weight of the fuel. You keep track of how many pounds you burn and then you know about where you are for landing or at any time in the flight. JetA-1 weighs appx 6.6 pounds per gallon.


bob



Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: 230RN on January 18, 2020, 04:14:38 PM
You put the scale on a very tall pile of concrete blocks.

Ah, yes, of course. On a flat, level, smooth uncarpeted surface.  I'll tell my friend.


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: zxcvbob on January 18, 2020, 07:31:49 PM
Treated for what, exactly?  Hysteria?  I'm sure it sucks to have kerosene misted on you, but it doesn't suck that much (unless maybe it's on fire)


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: dogmush on January 19, 2020, 02:27:58 AM
Ah, yes, of course. On a flat, level, smooth uncarpeted surface.  I'll tell my friend.

Actually, you need to put the plane on a treadmill...Ö..


Title: Re: 60 people treated after plane dumps jet fuel near several schools in LA area
Post by: Fly320s on January 19, 2020, 03:36:05 AM
Actually, you need to put the plane on a treadmill...Ö..

But then it will never takeoff!!!!   :rofl: