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Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Andiron on April 28, 2020, 06:40:29 AM



Title: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Andiron on April 28, 2020, 06:40:29 AM
Our illustrious governor has just declared ôNo mask, no work, no service, no exception,ö DeWine said at Mondayĺs press conference.  He seems to be tiptoeing along the line of mandatory, stopping just short of it by saying in the official release ( https://coronavirus.ohio.gov/wps/portal/gov/covid-19/responsible-restart-ohio/Responsible-Protocols/Responsible-Protocols)  that "1. Recommend face coverings for employees and clients/customers."

I'm getting really sick of being told "you must do this thing of questionable efficacy because Kung Flu".  And what's worse,  is everyone is going along with it without question.

What do you guys think of this?


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: DittoHead on April 28, 2020, 06:54:31 AM
If businesses or organizations want to require masks that's fine. No shirt, no shoes, no mask, etc.
If governments want to strongly encourage masks (and hand washing), that's fine too. Have the health department make their sales pitch.
Mandatory from the government is unacceptable save for some very limited exceptions like maybe hospitals.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Brad Johnson on April 28, 2020, 06:57:50 AM
If mask supplies are limited and not easily accessible then requiring them as a condition of employment is essentially a de facto ban on employment. I can't see that going unchallenged in court. Also, even though it's a "recommendation", the employers who see it as edict better be prepared to ante up... requiring PPE as a condition of employment also comes with the requirement that it be employer-provided.

Attorney General Barr has issued an unambiguous statement that onerous or unrealistic regulations will be getting the Federal Stinkeye Treatment. Our illustrious state politicos would to well to pay heed.

Brad


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: TommyGunn on April 28, 2020, 07:05:38 AM
I agree it shouldn't be a absolute requirement imposed by .gov. 

The thing about masks that makes me look askance at them is at first we were told that they're not effective,  even counterproductive.  Now,  we're being told THOUGH SHALT USE THY MASKS OR ELSE .....

I have not  been able to find any.  A month ago I ordered some from Amazon and those are due in mid May!   A week ago I found, also on Amazon, a smaller order with a faster delivery date,  and they're due tomorrow.

I think a lot of people are having a more difficult time acquiring them.   As Brad Johnson said,  this could be a de facto ban  on employment and we really truly need to get this economy spun up again.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: bedlamite on April 28, 2020, 07:10:11 AM

The thing about masks that makes me look askance at them is at first we were told that they're not effective,  even counterproductive.  

That was idiotic and blatantly false right from the start. If masks were effective for health care workers, then they were effective for everyone.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Nick1911 on April 28, 2020, 07:16:36 AM
That was idiotic and blatantly false right from the start. If masks were effective for health care workers, then they were effective for everyone.

This.  It was a deliberate manipulation attempt in order to keep the public from buying out all the inventory of masks.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Boomhauer on April 28, 2020, 07:50:00 AM
95% of the people I see are wearing their masks around their necks or with their nose exposed or they donĺt have any kind of seal going on. The unwashed trash also all seem to think the masks are fashion accessories...maybe they should try taking a *expletive deleted*ing bath and washing their damn hands instead.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: MechAg94 on April 28, 2020, 07:51:10 AM
This.  It was a deliberate manipulation attempt in order to keep the public from buying out all the inventory of masks.
Yeah, lying is usually the wrong way to go.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: MechAg94 on April 28, 2020, 07:55:43 AM
Is the purpose of the mask to protect me?  Or to keep those who may not know they are a carrier from further spreading the virus? 

From what I understand, the mask rule that Houston/Harris County tried to do was just a face covering.  You could just wear a bandana over your mouth and nose and be compliant.  (The cowboy hat and gun belt might draw unwanted attention.)  IMO, the bandana is at least effective at keeping any particulate from projecting from your mouth or nose while going about your day. 


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: adively on April 28, 2020, 08:01:57 AM
Is the purpose of the mask to protect me?  Or to keep those who may not know they are a carrier from further spreading the virus? 

From what I understand, the mask rule that Houston/Harris County tried to do was just a face covering.  You could just wear a bandana bananas over your mouth and nose and be compliant.  (The cowboy hat and gun belt might draw unwanted attention.)  IMO, the bandana is at least effective at keeping any particulate from projecting from your mouth or nose while going about your day. 

FIFY

(https://static.pjmedia.com/trending/user-content/51/files/2020/04/bananas.jpg)


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Brad Johnson on April 28, 2020, 08:34:53 AM
The Harris County mask order is already under fire from several fronts. First, there is the issue of the judge having the legal standing to do so. Several articles I've seen indicate that she has grossly exceeded her authority in this respect. Second, it exceeds Governor Abbott's requirements. Since Hizzoner's EO specifically specifically forbids requirement in excess of those stated, I see this going nowhere.

There's also the small issue of the Houston Police Officer's Association essentially giving her the finger. When you don't have the support of officers tasked with enforcing the ruling, any further proselytizing is just playing to your fan base for the marketing value.

Brad


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: zxcvbob on April 28, 2020, 08:48:37 AM
Is the purpose of the mask to protect me?  Or to keep those who may not know they are a carrier from further spreading the virus?  

From what I understand, the mask rule that Houston/Harris County tried to do was just a face covering.  You could just wear a bandana over your mouth and nose and be compliant.  (The cowboy hat and gun belt might draw unwanted attention.)  IMO, the bandana is at least effective at keeping any particulate from projecting from your mouth or nose while going about your day.  

The purpose of wearing a bananamask is mostly to protect others around you, but it also protects you a little bit.  An N95 or better mask is to protect both ways.  I wear an N95 (and got scolded for it by a stupid person I work with because the president says it's not necessary) because I had a couple of N95s already, and I have several risk factors for covid; the wosrt is probably that I get bronchitis and/or asthma every freakin time I get a cold, sometimes leading to pneumonia.  I get over the actual cold in a few days but I'm sick for weeks and cough for months.

It creates a dilemma for me if .gov orders me to wear a mask, because I want to wear a mask anyway but don't wanna comply with an illegal order.   ;/  When I was in Texas recently, it wasn't an issue because I was just north of Harris County (in Montgomery Co)

I ran into an Asian grocery store yesterday spur of the moment.  I didn't have a mask with me, so I just stayed 10 feet away from everybody.  It was weird; I was the only one in there without a mask. (I was also the only white person there, but I wasn't really self-conscious about that)  When I goto an American store, I'm usually one of the few people wearing a mask.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on April 28, 2020, 08:55:46 AM
The purpose of wearing a bananamask is mostly to protect others around you, but it also protects you a little bit.  An N95 or better mask is to protect both ways.  I wear an N95 (and got scolded for it by a stupid person I work with because the president says it's not necessary) because I had a couple of N95s already, and I have several risk factors for covid; the wosrt is probably that I get bronchitis and/or asthma every freakin time I get a cold, sometimes leading to pneumonia.  I get over the actual cold in a few days but I'm sick for weeks and cough for months.

It creates a dilemma for me if .gov orders me to wear a mask, because I want to wear a mask anyway but don't wanna comply with an illegal order.   ;/  When I was in Texas recently, it wasn't an issue because I was just north of Harris County (in Montgomery Co)

I ran into an Asian grocery store yesterday spur of the moment.  I didn't have a mask with me, so I just stayed 10 feet away from everybody.  It was weird; I was the only one in there without a mask. (I was also the only white person there, but I wasn't really self-conscious about that)  When I goto an American store, I'm usually one of the few people wearing a mask.

I went to Menards last night, I would say it was 80/20 on those with masks and those without. I wasn't wearing a mask, mostly because with my ZZ top beard, it's not that effective.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on April 28, 2020, 09:16:07 AM
I went to Menards last night, I would say it was 80/20 on those with masks and those without. I wasn't wearing a mask, mostly because with my ZZ top beard, it's not that effective.


I would make a joke about your vanity beard putting other people in danger, but people are getting real touchy lately, so...


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Hawkmoon on April 28, 2020, 09:25:08 AM
Our illustrious governor has just declared ôNo mask, no work, no service, no exception,ö DeWine said at Mondayĺs press conference.  He seems to be tiptoeing along the line of mandatory, stopping just short of it by saying in the official release ( https://coronavirus.ohio.gov/wps/portal/gov/covid-19/responsible-restart-ohio/Responsible-Protocols/Responsible-Protocols)  that "1. Recommend face coverings for employees and clients/customers."

I'm getting really sick of being told "you must do this thing of questionable efficacy because Kung Flu".  And what's worse,  is everyone is going along with it without question.

What do you guys think of this?

I don't have a problem with it, but I'm in the very high risk category. The problem is that masks are as much (or more) for protecting other people as they are for protecting the wearer. If someone wants to go out unprotected and catch the coronavirus, that's fine with me. I feel the same about people who ride motorcycles without helmets. But someone not wearing a mask could easily infect me with this bug. If I catch it, I'll more than likely die. So, no ... I don't object to people being told they shouldn't infect others.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on April 28, 2020, 09:31:33 AM

I would make a joke about your vanity beard putting other people in danger, but people are getting real touchy lately, so...

I think you're jealous of it.  :old:

I maintain a beard anyway, because I have too many moles on my face that a razor likes to knick if I was clean shaven. It is also my facial sunburn/windburn protection when working in ag fields all summer.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on April 28, 2020, 09:56:18 AM
I think you're jealous of it.  :old:

I maintain a beard anyway, because I have too many moles on my face that a razor likes to knick if I was clean shaven. It is also my facial sunburn/windburn protection when working in ag fields all summer.

I don't think I've seen it.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: dogmush on April 28, 2020, 10:06:05 AM
I don't have a problem with it, but I'm in the very high risk category. The problem is that masks are as much (or more) for protecting other people as they are for protecting the wearer. If someone wants to go out unprotected and catch the coronavirus, that's fine with me. I feel the same about people who ride motorcycles without helmets. But someone not wearing a mask could easily infect me with this bug. If I catch it, I'll more than likely die. So, no ... I don't object to people being told they shouldn't infect others.

Then wear a mask that protects you.  Those do exist. Expecting other people to do something because you have a high risk factor is a recipe for disappointment, notwithstanding any liberty/legal issues with it.

Also, I fail to see the reason for the sudden nationwide mask shortage.  The curve has essentially been flattened.  Outside of a few select areas the health care system is not overwhelmed.  This is the time the healthy people need to start producing antibodies to isolate the disease.  If you are high risk like Hawkmoon, or likely to have an issue with a respiratory illness, definitely engage in strict social distancing, and utilize properly deployed PPE.  The rest of us need to herd up and start building the immunity.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on April 28, 2020, 10:09:31 AM
Then wear a mask that protects you.  Those do exist. Expecting other people to do something because you have a high risk factor is a recipe for disappointment, notwithstanding any liberty/legal issues with it.

Also, I fail to see the reason for the sudden nationwide mask shortage.  The curve has essentially been flattened.  Outside of a few select areas the health care system is not overwhelmed.  This is the time the healthy people need to start producing antibodies to isolate the disease.  If you are high risk like Hawkmoon, or likely to have an issue with a respiratory illness, definitely engage in strict social distancing, and utilize properly deployed PPE.  The rest of us need to herd up and start building the immunity.

The lasting effects of this virus are still unknown. As a wrote in another thread about early on in the virus spread 23% of those who were positive also developed some sort of cardiac problems. Not sure of those will be temporary or life long.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Hawkmoon on April 28, 2020, 10:46:06 AM
Then wear a mask that protects you.

Like those N95 masks that not even the hospitals can get? One of those?

The rest of us need to herd up and start building the immunity.

From what I've read, there is a big question as to whether there is any such thing as herd immunity to COVID-19. The articles I read over this past weekend indicated that even people who had it and recovered will probably be susceptible again within three to six months.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ben on April 28, 2020, 10:46:20 AM
Then wear a mask that protects you.  Those do exist. Expecting other people to do something because you have a high risk factor is a recipe for disappointment, notwithstanding any liberty/legal issues with it.

Also, I fail to see the reason for the sudden nationwide mask shortage.  The curve has essentially been flattened.  Outside of a few select areas the health care system is not overwhelmed.  This is the time the healthy people need to start producing antibodies to isolate the disease.  If you are high risk like Hawkmoon, or likely to have an issue with a respiratory illness, definitely engage in strict social distancing, and utilize properly deployed PPE.  The rest of us need to herd up and start building the immunity.

One Hundred Percent.

With the flu, we aren't asking 98 people to wear masks everywhere so that 2 people don't die from the flu. Now we should ask 96 people to all wear masks everywhere so that 4 people don't die from the virus?

This has been one of the problems with our response since this started. We are going lowest common denominator instead of isolating specific groups. If you are high risk, isolate yourself and order stuff from Amazon.

This virus has already mutated. That means if we're going the mask route, everyone, everywhere has to continue wearing masks (often incorrectly as pointed out above) for what? Forever? Even as the curve flattens it doesn't mean the virus goes away, and high risk individuals are still high risk. There will be more pandemics and epidemics - depending on how they are defined, I appear to have lived through 4-8 of them with no government mandates or lockdowns. There will be more viruses. The world is not a safe space. A free world especially not so. This is getting to be like a city banning peanuts because 100 residents have a peanut allergy.

In the short term (as in, a few weeks), did lockdowns help? Probably. We can't continue them forever though, and in the long term, they will be detrimental, both economically and medically. As Dogmush said, we have to get the herd immunity going or just plan on walking around in isolation suits for the rest of our lives to avoid catching stuff.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: MechAg94 on April 28, 2020, 10:47:47 AM
The lasting effects of this virus are still unknown. As a wrote in another thread about early on in the virus spread 23% of those who were positive also developed some sort of cardiac problems. Not sure of those will be temporary or life long.
I have heard bits and pieces of commentary like that.  Starts making me rethink the idea of an engineered virus....or at least that one thing I saw that claimed the Wuhan lab was doing all sorts of gene manipulation just to see what happened.  


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on April 28, 2020, 11:37:33 AM
I don't have a problem with it, but I'm in the very high risk category. The problem is that masks are as much (or more) for protecting other people as they are for protecting the wearer. If someone wants to go out unprotected and catch the coronavirus, that's fine with me. I feel the same about people who ride motorcycles without helmets. But someone not wearing a mask could easily infect me with this bug. If I catch it, I'll more than likely die. So, no ... I don't object to people being told they shouldn't infect others.


Being told we shouldn't infect others is a whole lot different from being told we must all wear masks. It's the difference between mandating that someone disclose they're HIV-positive prior to sexual intercourse, and mandating that everyone use condoms.

Just because I'm standing in front you without a mask doesn't mean I'm infecting you. And if you want me to wear one, you could ask, instead of using government to force me to do it.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: DittoHead on April 28, 2020, 11:45:26 AM
Mandatory from the government is unacceptable save for some very limited exceptions like maybe hospitals.
or not...
Pence flouts Mayo Clinic policy by not wearing face covering (https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/495079-pence-flouts-mayo-clinic-policy-by-not-wearing-face-covering)
He is getting pretty good at that elbow thing though.  :laugh:


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on April 28, 2020, 12:10:42 PM
I have heard bits and pieces of commentary like that.  Starts making me rethink the idea of an engineered virus....or at least that one thing I saw that claimed the Wuhan lab was doing all sorts of gene manipulation just to see what happened.  

I still doubt it is an engineered virus, just from little I know about coronavirus in porcine. Other naturally occurring human pathogens have lead to other complications in humans.

Mumps virus can lead to meningitis, pancreatitis, swelling of the heart, permanent deafness, and infertility.

Rubella (German measles) virus can cause myocarditis, still births/miscarriages.

Measles (and rubella) virus can lead to encephalitis or pneumonia

Scarlet fever is a bacteria human pathogen that had lasting problems (heart, kidneys, arthritis) for a lot of people.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ron on April 28, 2020, 02:08:04 PM
My work issued me two cloth masks that probably aren't any better than a bandanna. They are more comfortable though and we aren't required to wear them.

When we get back to actual customer facing we are required yo wear them. At that point, if there is still a lot of uncertainty I'll hopefully have some real masks that actually block stuff.

Here in Illinois I'm now "required" by Governor fiat to wear a mask in public where social distancing isn't practical.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Andiron on April 28, 2020, 05:06:21 PM
I don't have a problem with it, but I'm in the very high risk category. The problem is that masks are as much (or more) for protecting other people as they are for protecting the wearer. If someone wants to go out unprotected and catch the coronavirus, that's fine with me. I feel the same about people who ride motorcycles without helmets. But someone not wearing a mask could easily infect me with this bug. If I catch it, I'll more than likely die. So, no ... I don't object to people being told they shouldn't infect others.

Redundant at this point, as others more eloquent than I have answered,  but my layman's response is that sounds like your problem not mine.

If my governor wants to mandate masks,  he should run it through the legislature and pass a law.  Full stop.  And with that we ignore the efficacy of said "face coverings" and go right back to legality.

Again,  it's selfish, but I'm completely sick of debating this stupid *expletive deleted*it with security first quislings.  It's mostly pointless and the state has no right to mandate them,  along with the rest of the arbitrary shutdown.  Don't even start me on the snitch hotlines.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: RoadKingLarry on April 28, 2020, 05:36:38 PM
I still doubt it is an engineered virus, just from little I know about coronavirus in porcine. Other naturally occurring human pathogens have lead to other complications in humans.

Mumps virus can lead to meningitis, pancreatitis, swelling of the heart, permanent deafness, and infertility.

Rubella (German measles) virus can cause myocarditis, still births/miscarriages.

Measles (and rubella) virus can lead to encephalitis or pneumonia

Scarlet fever is a bacteria human pathogen that had lasting problems (heart, kidneys, arthritis) for a lot of people.

3 out of 4 and does the mumps twice count as 4 for 4?


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: WLJ on April 28, 2020, 05:41:01 PM
If the mask is black does that count as black facing? If the person wearing it is white of course.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on April 28, 2020, 05:54:12 PM
3 out of 4 and does the mumps twice count as 4 for 4?


huh?


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ben on April 28, 2020, 06:06:01 PM
3 out of 4 and does the mumps twice count as 4 for 4?


Yeah, I remember when sending kids to the sick kid's house was the cure. I also had the mumps, chicken pox and measles. Apparently in 1980, there were 2.6 million measles deaths. Guess they should have social distanced.

Quote
Measles affects about 20 million people a year,[3] primarily in the developing areas of Africa and Asia.[7] While often regarded as a childhood illness, it can affect people of any age.[14] It is one of the leading vaccine-preventable disease causes of death.[15][16] In 1980, 2.6 million people died of it,[7

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles



Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on April 28, 2020, 06:27:22 PM
Yeah, I remember when sending kids to the sick kid's house was the cure. I also had the mumps, chicken pox and measles. Apparently in 1980, there were 2.6 million measles deaths. Guess they should have social distanced.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles



I think you're missing my point of something may not seem so bad with a low mortality rate may lead to lifelong medical conditions and shorter lifespan.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ben on April 28, 2020, 06:33:32 PM
I think you're missing my point of something may not seem so bad with a low mortality rate may lead to lifelong medical conditions and shorter lifespan.

I was replying to what RKL said.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: dogmush on April 28, 2020, 10:03:03 PM
I still doubt it is an engineered virus, just from little I know about coronavirus in porcine. Other naturally occurring human pathogens have lead to other complications in humans.

Define "engineered".

Purposly designed for this effect in humans as a weapon?  I have my suspicions, but it is not proven certainly.

Fiddled with by humans as an attempt to provide a virus to experiment on for lab purposes?  Almost certainly, based on what we know.

We can argue about what the Wuhan lab was doing, but there's enough smoke around the whole "it got out of the Wuhan lab" fire that one needs to purposly look the other way to miss the flames.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ron on April 29, 2020, 04:23:30 AM
If there is something contagious and deadly spreading through your community I would think you would take every precaution to keep yourself safe.

If it takes a government fiat/law to force the people to protect themselves then there is something wrong with both the people and the government.  

I wear the stupid mask because I live in the shadow of Mordor on Lake Michigan, a densely populated urbane/suburban area with "hot spots" blowing up around me. Not everywhere is experiencing the same impact.

Adults should be able to assess their own risk and whether they are endangering others.

Unfortunately adults are in short supply in many places.

"There ought to be a law" isn't going to fix stupid.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Jamisjockey on April 29, 2020, 04:29:38 AM
I'm amazed by how many armchair patriots are in my facebook newsfeed now. 
Patriot act good.  War on drugs, good.  Civil forfeiture, good.  Masks for 30 days?  AW HELL NAW!


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on April 29, 2020, 04:32:49 AM
Define "engineered".

Purposly designed for this effect in humans as a weapon?  I have my suspicions, but it is not proven certainly.

Fiddled with by humans as an attempt to provide a virus to experiment on for lab purposes?  Almost certainly, based on what we know.

We can argue about what the Wuhan lab was doing, but there's enough smoke around the whole "it got out of the Wuhan lab" fire that one needs to purposly look the other way to miss the flames.

As a weapon, I have a hard time agreeing. If the lab was trying to modify (or culture a natural) a virus create a vaccine for other human coronaviruses, I can see that. Happens everyday in America, why wouldn't the Chinese be doing the same. Even modifying an animal coronavirus to be used as a carrier to create a GMO commodity animal is even possible. I also don't trust any news out of China either.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ben on April 29, 2020, 04:36:22 AM


I wear the stupid mask because I live in the shadow of Mordor on Lake Michigan, a densely populated urbane/suburban area with "hot spots" blowing up around me. Not everywhere is experiencing the same impact.

Adults should be able to assess their own risk and whether they are endangering others.


Yup. If I lived in LA, my jaunts away from home would be 50% less, and I'd wear a mask every damn place. If NYC, knock that up to 90%. Goes back to lowest common denominator by law versus targeted enforcement/education.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ron on April 29, 2020, 04:36:49 AM
Define "engineered".

Purposly designed for this effect in humans as a weapon?  I have my suspicions, but it is not proven certainly.

Fiddled with by humans as an attempt to provide a virus to experiment on for lab purposes?  Almost certainly, based on what we know.

We can argue about what the Wuhan lab was doing, but there's enough smoke around the whole "it got out of the Wuhan lab" fire that one needs to purposly look the other way to miss the flames.

The unknown, is this a tampered with/engineered virus? research or weapon? is another reason I'm still employing caution.

The wide range of reported symptoms beyond the respiratory symptoms makes me pause for reflection ... does anyone really know what was unleashed?

  



Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Jamisjockey on April 29, 2020, 04:43:00 AM

The idea that China is trying to be a world power includes they doing things like trying to advance scientific research.  The US and west aren't leading the wold solely because we carry the biggest stick.  We do the most medical and scientific research to propel humanity forward.  China's value on the world stage increases if they compete with us on all fronts.

China may be bold, but they aren't "researching new weapons in the middle of a city" bold.  I doubt that any bioweapon research they are doing is taking place in the middle of a city.
They are, however, doing scientific research. Poorly, I might add.  Workers at that facility report getting splashed with bat urine and blood due to improper sample handling and lack of PPE.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ben on April 29, 2020, 05:22:12 AM
I'm amazed by how many armchair patriots are in my facebook newsfeed now. 
Patriot act good.  War on drugs, good.  Civil forfeiture, good.  Masks for 30 days?  AW HELL NAW!

Yeah, but I understand the mask part. Why 30 days? Why now? Why not 90 days? It's more, as Ron pointed out elsewhere, TSA-like security theater right now.

You know when a "wear a mask for 30 days" requirement would have been better accepted and also very likely would have cut way down on daily spread numbers? Around 60 days ago, when the gov as well as dunderhead "news outlets" like Vox* were telling everyone that masks don't work. "Only moron preppers and anti-sciencey guys would think a mask would work! Don't wear masks you morons!"


* I note that one of the Vox editors who was admonishing the anti-science morons two months ago about taking PPE away from health care workers, not too long ago posted about how glad he was that he bought N95 masks for his family in February.



Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on April 29, 2020, 05:59:48 AM
China may be bold, but they aren't "researching new weapons in the middle of a city" bold.  I doubt that any bioweapon research they are doing is taking place in the middle of a city.

Even the soviets weren't that stupid, they had their bioweapon labs out in the middle of no where, like USSR, China also has a lot of low population space to have a "safe" lab.

One of the Soviets labs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vozrozhdeniya_Island


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on April 29, 2020, 06:02:19 AM
The unknown, is this a tampered with/engineered virus? research or weapon? is another reason I'm still employing caution.

The wide range of reported symptoms beyond the respiratory symptoms makes me pause for reflection ... does anyone really know what was unleashed?

You really don't know much about human pathogens do you?


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: MillCreek on April 29, 2020, 06:49:20 AM
Even the soviets weren't that stupid, they had their bioweapon labs out in the middle of no where, like USSR, China also has a lot of low population space to have a "safe" lab.

One of the Soviets labs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vozrozhdeniya_Island

I loved Ken Alibek's book about the Soviet biological program.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: MillCreek on April 29, 2020, 06:52:20 AM
Even the soviets weren't that stupid, they had their bioweapon labs out in the middle of no where, like USSR, China also has a lot of low population space to have a "safe" lab.

One of the Soviets labs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vozrozhdeniya_Island

Well, the Soviets did have that unfortunate escape of anthrax from the bioweapons lab in Sverdlovsk.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ben on April 29, 2020, 07:07:53 AM
Well, the Soviets did have that unfortunate escape of anthrax from the bioweapons lab in Sverdlovsk.

It doesn't even have to be a matter of "stupid thing to do" regarding a bioweapon lab in a populated area, depending on the country. I can think of a half dozen countries off the top of my head that would have no problem hiding a bioweapons lab, or any other dangerous facility in the middle of one of their crowded cities. There are regimes out there that have no problem with a half million of their citizens dying to protect their strategic agenda.

I still think it's less likely that the Wuhan facility was into any bioweapons research, given that we were giving them money. That would be pretty freakin' ballsy, but certainly not out of the question for the Chineses. I'm still leaning heavily towards disease research and crappy protocols, but  I won't rule out bioweapon experimentation for reasons I've outlined elsewhere. I'm about 99% ruling out "Some guy ate a bat sandwich for lunch down the street from the lab" (unless [dons tinfoil] somebody placed infected bat meat there to create a patient zero [removes tinfoil]).


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on April 29, 2020, 07:15:48 AM
Well, the Soviets did have that unfortunate escape of anthrax from the bioweapons lab in Sverdlovsk.

and Kirov, I think anthrax from rats captured in Kirov was the source of the anthrax in Sverdlovsk escape.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: adively on April 29, 2020, 07:53:08 AM
Redundant at this point, as others more eloquent than I have answered,  but my layman's response is that sounds like your problem not mine.

If my governor wants to mandate masks,  he should run it through the legislature and pass a law.  Full stop.  And with that we ignore the efficacy of said "face coverings" and go right back to legality.

Again,  it's selfish, but I'm completely sick of debating this stupid *expletive deleted*it with security first quislings.  It's mostly pointless and the state has no right to mandate them,  along with the rest of the arbitrary shutdown.  Don't even start me on the snitch hotlines.

He walked it back on Tuesday.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ron on April 29, 2020, 11:11:46 AM
You really don't know much about human pathogens do you?

Not at all.

Listening to the 'experts" has yielded me next to no help.

Do I need to run down all of the wrong and crazy *expletive deleted*it the experts have spouted these last few months?

We could make a long thread just about the fallacious information the cdc and who put out there.

You can boot lick them as your betters and authority but I'll take a pass.
 


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: MechAg94 on April 29, 2020, 12:00:52 PM
It doesn't even have to be a matter of "stupid thing to do" regarding a bioweapon lab in a populated area, depending on the country. I can think of a half dozen countries off the top of my head that would have no problem hiding a bioweapons lab, or any other dangerous facility in the middle of one of their crowded cities. There are regimes out there that have no problem with a half million of their citizens dying to protect their strategic agenda.

I still think it's less likely that the Wuhan facility was into any bioweapons research, given that we were giving them money. That would be pretty freakin' ballsy, but certainly not out of the question for the Chineses. I'm still leaning heavily towards disease research and crappy protocols, but  I won't rule out bioweapon experimentation for reasons I've outlined elsewhere. I'm about 99% ruling out "Some guy ate a bat sandwich for lunch down the street from the lab" (unless [dons tinfoil] somebody placed infected bat meat there to create a patient zero [removes tinfoil]).
I think the rumor I heard was not so much about weapons as just sloppy genetic research.  That was a just a rumor though.  The sloppy safety practices just seems to fit with other stuff we know about China and communists in general.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on April 29, 2020, 12:38:02 PM
Anyone going to boycott Costco and ditch their membership?

https://www.fox9.com/news/costco-will-require-all-shoppers-to-wear-face-masks-starting-may-4?fbclid=IwAR2C1whN4Ds9ygagj4cCyYwj5ZRSgjZmleWEb6N2ungOYmEBqkvPVcAYmL8



Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ben on April 29, 2020, 12:42:26 PM
Anyone going to boycott Costco and ditch their membership?

https://www.fox9.com/news/costco-will-require-all-shoppers-to-wear-face-masks-starting-may-4?fbclid=IwAR2C1whN4Ds9ygagj4cCyYwj5ZRSgjZmleWEb6N2ungOYmEBqkvPVcAYmL8



Why? I haven't gone in two months because of lines. I can skip another two months until they stop requiring masks. Or costco.com. Or go and wear my CM-6M and see how they like me now.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on April 29, 2020, 12:53:10 PM
Why? I haven't gone in two months because of lines. I can skip another two months until they stop requiring masks. Or costco.com. Or go and wear my CM-6M and see how they like me now.

Yea, but they are violating your rights!


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ben on April 29, 2020, 01:01:08 PM
Yea, but they are violating your rights!

They prohibit guns too, yet I'm heeled everytime I visit.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on April 29, 2020, 01:01:19 PM
Yea, but they are violating your rights!

How?  ???


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on April 29, 2020, 01:05:14 PM
How?  ???

Have to wear a mask to enter a place of business, unable to make the personal choice of not being able to choose between wearing one or not if you want to visit the business. 


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: zxcvbob on April 29, 2020, 03:23:21 PM
Have to wear a mask to enter a place of business, unable to make the personal choice of not being able to choose between wearing one or not if you want to visit the business. 

Who is making the rule, the business or the government?  It makes a difference.  "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" 


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: French G. on April 29, 2020, 04:47:21 PM
I don't like mandatory anything but I admit I am having waaay too much fun rolling into places with a red bandana over my face. Hope it keeps up for awhile, do all the mean things to facial recognition systems while masks are required.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Andiron on April 29, 2020, 05:58:01 PM
(https://cdn.thingiverse.com/renders/5a/d6/60/53/c6/8fae3018fdce891ba78942438146996f_preview_featured.jpeg)


Buddy of mine just printed me one of these.

If we're gonna have TSA style kabuki pseudoscience,  I'm gonna have some fun with it.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on April 29, 2020, 05:58:57 PM
Who is making the rule, the business or the government?  It makes a difference.  "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"  

True, but is Costco reacting because some of their locations are in mandatory mask states, so corporate went company wide because they could? On the other hand, you are open and serving the public, so why would you require a "dress code" for everyone.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: tokugawa on April 29, 2020, 06:29:17 PM
The mask requirement is just a way to rub our noses in the doo doo. Purely a power trip.
 The homemade poorly worn contraptions people are walking around with are ridiculous.
 They must think a virus is the size of a grain of sugar.

 IN a weird way though, I can't wait to write all over a nice white N95.  "INFECTED!" "NUKE CHINA!"
 "SOCIAL CONTROL!"  endless list of possibilities. 


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: zxcvbob on April 29, 2020, 06:36:45 PM
(https://cdn.thingiverse.com/renders/5a/d6/60/53/c6/8fae3018fdce891ba78942438146996f_preview_featured.jpeg)


Buddy of mine just printed me one of these.

If we're gonna have TSA style kabuki pseudoscience,  I'm gonna have some fun with it.

Cool!  Do you have the rest of the outfit?  (hat, cane, etc) :D


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: bedlamite on April 29, 2020, 06:39:38 PM
https://news.iheart.com/featured/coast-to-coast-am/content/2020-04-29-cops-seek-plague-doctor-in-england/


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ben on April 29, 2020, 06:57:29 PM
True, but is Costco reacting because some of their locations are in mandatory mask states, so corporate went company wide because they could?

Company wide seems to be their modus operandi.  I recall the gun policy even says something to the effect that they didn't care about state or local laws when they made that policy, because it was about making their customers and employees "safe". Still, I've printed, flashed, etc. numerous times, and employees and customers had to have seen the gun, but no one ever says anything here, so local employees may not always agree with the policy.

I doubt there will be leeway with the masks though. Still, I can't help but think it's Costco Seattle-centric social theater at this point. As with any other mask wearing, IMO, it would have had more meaning and positive effect as a mandatory policy two months ago.

Also, if Costco wanted to put their money where their mouth is, they would be offering free sealed and sterile masks at the door for their customers who show up without one versus turning away irate customers who show up without knowing the mask policy is in effect.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Andiron on April 29, 2020, 07:02:34 PM
Cool!  Do you have the rest of the outfit?  (hat, cane, etc) :D


Working on it! 

I'll get actual pics of mine when I finish it.  Right now it's just a giant front heavy mask thing.  I plan to gut a chainsaw hardhat/face shield combo and attach the plague mask to it, and then cover all the support bits in leather.  For the rest,  I've been going to renn faires forever,  I've got a few ideas   :cool:


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on April 29, 2020, 07:16:42 PM
https://news.iheart.com/featured/coast-to-coast-am/content/2020-04-29-cops-seek-plague-doctor-in-england/

Awesome. Good for him.

A year or so ago, we had a couple of weirdos show up at church wearing masks and veils. Creepy, but we didn't call the cops or throw them out or anything.

It's just great how a guy wearing a dress and makeup is a hero, and there's something wrong with you if you don't like it; but dress up as a clown or a plague doctor, and the police respond.

We've had one of those brave heroes at church, too.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on April 29, 2020, 07:19:56 PM
True, but is Costco reacting because some of their locations are in mandatory mask states, so corporate went company wide because they could? On the other hand, you are open and serving the public, so why would you require a "dress code" for everyone.

False dichotomy. "Open to the public" does not mean what some people seem to think it means. We've discussed this before.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on April 29, 2020, 07:23:20 PM
False dichotomy. "Open to the public" does not mean what some people seem to think it means. We've discussed this before.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on April 29, 2020, 07:46:26 PM
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Unless they run a store, apparently.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: HeroHog on April 29, 2020, 08:22:48 PM
Why it makes sense for everyone to mask up


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on April 29, 2020, 09:30:37 PM
charby, do you really think Costco requiring masks in their store is the same thing as government requiring masks everywhere? I mean, as far as your individual rights are concerned?


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: dogmush on April 29, 2020, 09:49:29 PM
I can't wait till I get home and can wear my M40 mask to the store......


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on April 30, 2020, 06:18:23 AM
charby, do you really think Costco requiring masks in their store is the same thing as government requiring masks everywhere? I mean, as far as your individual rights are concerned?

I don't feel like participating.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on April 30, 2020, 07:18:49 AM
I don't fell like participating.

Yeah, that's the difference, isn't it?


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Jamisjockey on April 30, 2020, 07:32:22 AM
Have to wear a mask to enter a place of business, unable to make the personal choice of not being able to choose between wearing one or not if you want to visit the business. 

BS.  Freedom of association means skipping Costco until they ditch the mask rule, if one is so inclined.  No rights are violated. 


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: bedlamite on April 30, 2020, 07:34:08 AM
BS.  Freedom of association means skipping Costco until they ditch the mask rule, if one is so inclined.  No rights are violated. 


This. Don't like the mask rule? Go to MalWart/Sam's Club


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: zxcvbob on April 30, 2020, 10:08:24 AM
charby, do you really think Costco requiring masks in their store is the same thing as government requiring masks everywhere? I mean, as far as your individual rights are concerned?

It might be (kinda) if the government coerced Costco into requiring masks.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on April 30, 2020, 10:52:09 AM
It might be (kinda) if the government coerced Costco into requiring masks.

Then would you boycott them for doing it?


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on April 30, 2020, 10:53:36 AM
I'm amazed by how many armchair patriots are in my facebook newsfeed now. 
Patriot act good.  War on drugs, good.  Civil forfeiture, good.  Masks for 30 days?  AW HELL NAW!

Those rants against the Patriot Act, the war on drugs and civil forfeiture have been some of your best armchair patriot moments.  :P


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: zxcvbob on April 30, 2020, 10:54:20 AM
Then would you boycott them for doing it?

No.  That's between Costco and the government; I'm just a third party.  I am just trying to see *some* point to Charby's trolling.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on April 30, 2020, 11:40:29 AM
No.  That's between Costco and the government; I'm just a third party.  I am just trying to see *some* point to Charby's trolling.

Yes it's trolling, it's the people's love affair with Costco and yet they are willing to spend money their even though Costco has some policies that goes against things they believe in. It's like the people who won't eat at BWW because nationwide they have banned firearms on their property, but proudly tell everyone about how great Kirkland Whisky, feed their freedom hound with Kirkland Kibble and wipe their red, white, and blue ass with Kirkland 500pk of TP.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ben on April 30, 2020, 11:47:49 AM
Yes it's trolling, it's the people's love affair with Costco and yet they are willing to spend money their even though Costco has some policies that goes against things they believe in. It's like the people who won't eat at BWW because nationwide they have banned firearms on their property, but proudly tell everyone about how great Kirkland Whisky, feed their freedom hound with Kirkland Kibble and wipe their red, white, and blue ass with Kirkland 500pk of TP.

Oh brother. Do you refuse to shop anywhere that doesn't exactly align with your beliefs? Because I'm pretty sure in the past you have trolled in the other direction, criticizing people who refuse to shop at a store that doesn't align with all their beliefs.

You must be getting really bored at home.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on April 30, 2020, 11:52:15 AM
Oh brother. Do you refuse to shop anywhere that doesn't exactly align with your beliefs? Because I'm pretty sure in the past you have trolled in the other direction, criticizing people who refuse to shop at a store that doesn't align with all their beliefs.

You must be getting really bored at home.

If I refused to shop anywhere that didn't align with my beliefs, I would have no place to shop. I've criticized because people boycott when it's convenient or it's a place they don't frequent anyways, especially when they are a 2nd amendment chest thumper armchair bubba warrior. If you're a true believer, you need to follow through.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ben on April 30, 2020, 12:00:50 PM
If I refused to shop anywhere that didn't align with my beliefs, I would have no place to shop. I've criticized because people boycott when it's convenient or it's a place they don't frequent anyways, especially when they are a 2nd amendment chest thumper armchair bubba warrior. If you're a true believer, you need to follow through.

Then who is "you"? Because as far as I know, none of the many members here that are Costco lovers fit your description.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on April 30, 2020, 12:07:17 PM
Then who is "you"? Because as far as I know, none of the many members here that are Costco lovers fit your description.

I am Groot.

I'm actually hoping that I am rational enough to realize that you can't always get what you want and just because I believe in a certain thing, not everyone else is going to, possibly the majority of the people don't and I'll never get a small percentage what I want. I also feel that if a person ascertains to be inflexible in their beliefs, they also should walk the walk.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: RoadKingLarry on April 30, 2020, 01:48:49 PM
I can't wait till I get home and can wear my M40 mask to the store......

I wish I still had my Mark V gas mask.

If .gov starts mandating face masks I'll go with either Guy Fawkes or Plague Doctor masks.

Private business, I'll comply with their requirements if I need to patronize their establishment.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Jim147 on April 30, 2020, 02:19:10 PM
Some of "you" need to go back to work.

On the plus side I had a customer give me p100 refills today in case I go anywhere.



Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Andiron on April 30, 2020, 03:51:49 PM
Buddy with 3d printer will be happy to make plague doctor masks for anyone who wants one for $40 shipped.  If there's interest I'll take a bunch of pics of mine and start another thread.  They're a fun novelty.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: MechAg94 on April 30, 2020, 04:13:13 PM
I thought it might be funny to wear a mask like this and see what sort of looks you get.   =D
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7b/1a/d9/7b1ad99fceaa928a49e6e22367558611.jpg)


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on April 30, 2020, 04:34:50 PM
Maybe I should get an Obama mask.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: bedlamite on April 30, 2020, 04:37:38 PM
https://www.amazon.com/Joker-Movie-Clown-Costume-White/dp/B07YJ3HLTK


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on April 30, 2020, 04:44:51 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/8239/8543008678_af1808759d_b.jpg)


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Andiron on April 30, 2020, 05:19:47 PM
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-orpRmUbK9vQ/Xa3I9TmedCI/AAAAAAAALIw/qqfOU7jFLcgzzcyD0Kc-Wbgm9uax_5BDgCLcBGAsYHQ/s400/Screen%2BShot%2B2019-10-21%2Bat%2B10.02.43%2BAM.png)


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: 230RN on May 02, 2020, 08:24:35 AM

Quote
...especially when they are a 2nd amendment chest thumper armchair bubba warrior. If you're a true believer, you need to follow through.

I reject your authoritay, so you can't make me follow through.  :nyah nyah:  Damned do-gooder !

Terry


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on May 05, 2020, 11:04:29 AM
I'm wondering if the lawyers and insurance companies are forcing retail places to require masks of their customers so their employees can't sue the employer if they get sick. Even in the "open" counties of Iowa, many retail businesses just started requiring customers to wear masks to enter the store or buy one for a $1 to gain entry.

Also seen a few pictures on Facebook of some stores with armed security at the entrances, not sure if this is true or a pile of steaming bovine excrement. I need to venture out for some copper tubing for a project, see if Menards has armed security like the folks on Facebook are claiming they do.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ben on May 05, 2020, 11:10:49 AM

Also seen a few pictures on Facebook of some stores with armed security at the entrances, not sure if this is true or a pile of steaming bovine excrement. I need to venture out for some copper tubing for a project, see if Menards has armed security like the folks on Facebook are claiming they do.

Forgot where I just read it, but a Dollar Store somewhere had a security guard for mask monitoring. He apparently got into it with some woman who then went home to get her husband or baby daddy or whatever who then came back and shot the guard for "disrespecting" his wife.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on May 05, 2020, 11:12:42 AM
Forgot where I just read it, but a Dollar Store somewhere had a security guard for mask monitoring. He apparently got into it with some woman who then went home to get her husband or baby daddy or whatever who then came back and shot the guard for "disrespecting" his wife.

I read that too, Michigan I think where it happened.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ben on May 05, 2020, 11:29:09 AM
A Texas county sent the SWAT teams out for no/mask social distancing protestors who were also open carrying. That's a lot of cops for a half dozen guys. Also, their battle wagon had a guy in the turret.

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2020/05/05/wtf-texas-ector-county-swat-team-raids-bar-during-peaceful-protest-against-state-lockdown-order/

I wonder how close to "that's my line in the sand" it will be if someone gets shot in the face for not wearing a mask?

Regardless of what this was about, somebody needs to take their armored vehicle, replace it with a minivan, and make every one of those cops wear pink uniforms and carry revolvers.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on May 05, 2020, 11:33:42 AM


Regardless of what this was about, somebody needs to take their armored vehicle, replace it with a minivan, and make every one of those cops wear pink uniforms and carry revolvers.

I miss the days of old when cops wore the bus driver hat, clip on tie, and rolled around town in sedan with cherries on top.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Andiron on May 05, 2020, 04:21:04 PM
I miss the days of old when cops wore the bus driver hat, clip on tie, and rolled around town in sedan with cherries on top.

Cops should be more Andy Griffith, less TK421.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on May 05, 2020, 04:35:18 PM
Menards wouldn't let anyone in w/o a mask, and they wanted $1 for a mask. Their store, obviously. They may do as they like. I turned about and went to Home Depot.



Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: RoadKingLarry on May 05, 2020, 04:40:52 PM
A Texas county sent the SWAT teams out for no/mask social distancing protestors who were also open carrying. That's a lot of cops for a half dozen guys. Also, their battle wagon had a guy in the turret.

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2020/05/05/wtf-texas-ector-county-swat-team-raids-bar-during-peaceful-protest-against-state-lockdown-order/

I wonder how close to "that's my line in the sand" it will be if someone gets shot in the face for not wearing a mask?

Regardless of what this was about, somebody needs to take their armored vehicle, replace it with a minivan, and make every one of those cops wear pink uniforms and carry revolvers.


This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.

Pretty sad display of jack booted thugs just following orders.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: bedlamite on May 05, 2020, 04:52:01 PM

This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.

Pretty sad display of jack booted thugs just following orders.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOvD9Vzv8wk


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on May 05, 2020, 04:58:19 PM
Menards wouldn't let anyone in w/o a mask, and they wanted $1 for a mask. Their store, obviously. They may do as they like. I turned about and went to Home Depot.



I'm torn, they have the 11% rebate going and I have about $700 in expenditures this week for my basement bathroom and front hardscaping. They are also the cheapest in town for pavers.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: bedlamite on May 05, 2020, 05:22:40 PM
I'm torn, they have the 11% rebate going and I have about $700 in expenditures this week for my basement bathroom and front hardscaping. They are also the cheapest in town for pavers.

https://www.amazon.com/Joker-Movie-Clown-Costume-White/dp/B07YJ3HLTK


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on May 05, 2020, 05:33:18 PM
https://www.amazon.com/Joker-Movie-Clown-Costume-White/dp/B07YJ3HLTK

Not sure if anyone would get The Purge.

I could go this way, but I just have a white Resistol and it's before Memorial Day

(https://2zk8ci15bz0240i2m999gkf1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/bandana_cowboy_480x480.jpg)


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: MechAg94 on May 05, 2020, 06:10:50 PM
Not sure if anyone would get The Purge.

I could go this way, but I just have a white Resistol and it's before Memorial Day

(https://2zk8ci15bz0240i2m999gkf1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/bandana_cowboy_480x480.jpg)
I have a black hat, but I don't have a holster rig. 


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on May 05, 2020, 06:35:45 PM
but I don't have a holster rig. 

Turn in your man card, now!


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: dogmush on May 05, 2020, 09:46:27 PM
A Texas county sent the SWAT teams out for no/mask social distancing protestors who were also open carrying. That's a lot of cops for a half dozen guys. Also, their battle wagon had a guy in the turret.

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2020/05/05/wtf-texas-ector-county-swat-team-raids-bar-during-peaceful-protest-against-state-lockdown-order/

I wonder how close to "that's my line in the sand" it will be if someone gets shot in the face for not wearing a mask?

Regardless of what this was about, somebody needs to take their armored vehicle, replace it with a minivan, and make every one of those cops wear pink uniforms and carry revolvers.

I, for one, appreciate the jack-booted thugs repeatedly showing us their equipment and TTPs [Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures] well in advance of any civil unrest.

Gestapo be rolling out in a MaxxPro like it's 2006 and IEDs aren't a thing.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ben on May 06, 2020, 04:05:51 AM
I, for one, appreciate the jack-booted thugs repeatedly showing us their equipment and TTPs [Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures] well in advance of any civil unrest.

Gestapo be rolling out in a MaxxPro like it's 2006 and IEDs aren't a thing.

I'm still curious and possibly shocked by the guy in the turret. I don't know armament on those things, but wouldn't a turret usually have like an M-2 or M-240 or something? I couldn't tell from the video, and maybe they have a non-lethal grenade launcher in it, but otherwise, why do you have a guy in the turret in a civilian setting with a gun that's supposed to do suppression or laying into crowds of armed hostiles? That would be a lot of collateral damage if the trigger was pulled in any domestic situation.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: MechAg94 on May 06, 2020, 05:50:58 AM
I am curious about the charge of possession of a firearms on the premises.  Usually premises does not include the parking lot.  So I am curious where they are.  In Texas you are not supposed to possess a firearm in a bar, but the parking lot is not the bar.  Maybe they were in an open patio or something. 


I will be interesting to see the follow up in court for a lot of these arrests and citations during this mess. 


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: RocketMan on May 06, 2020, 06:17:49 AM
I am curious about the charge of possession of a firearms on the premises.  Usually premises does not include the parking lot.  So I am curious where they are.  In Texas you are not supposed to possess a firearm in a bar, but the parking lot is not the bar.  Maybe they were in an open patio or something.  

I will be interesting to see the follow up in court for a lot of these arrests and citations during this mess.

The story I read this morning stated that the protest was held in a vacant lot behind the bar.  That lot was also owned by the bar owner, but is not part of the bar property itself.  If true, then I expect the sheriff will drop the charges for carrying weapons on a property that is involved in serving alcohol.
Oh, wait.  What the heck am I thinking?  Never mind.  ;/


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: RoadKingLarry on May 06, 2020, 07:16:13 AM
Just more proof of what I have believed for a long time. When push comes to shove law enforcement will default to their paycheck and jackboots. We've seen examples all across the country during this pandemic scam.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: dogmush on May 06, 2020, 07:29:41 AM
I'm still curious and possibly shocked by the guy in the turret. I don't know armament on those things, but wouldn't a turret usually have like an M-2 or M-240 or something? I couldn't tell from the video, and maybe they have a non-lethal grenade launcher in it, but otherwise, why do you have a guy in the turret in a civilian setting with a gun that's supposed to do suppression or laying into crowds of armed hostiles? That would be a lot of collateral damage if the trigger was pulled in any domestic situation.

The pintle in a MaxxPro turret is designed to take a standard weapons mount, so M249, M240, M2, or Mk19 are the normal installed weapons.  Some high speed units but different stuff in that pintle but it's rare. (I think SOCOM runs miniguns in that same reciever)

That particular turret doesn't have a weapon in it.  The guy in it is providing (shitty) overwatch with what appears to be an M4.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ben on May 06, 2020, 07:41:29 AM


That particular turret doesn't have a weapon in it.  The guy in it is providing (shitty) overwatch with what appears to be an M4.

Well, that makes it a little better, or rather a little less bad.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ben on May 06, 2020, 08:34:08 AM
"Meal Team Six".  :rofl:

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2020/05/06/meal-team-six-heres-the-ector-county-sheriffs-department-in-action-while-closing-down-that-bar-on-tuesday/


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on May 06, 2020, 08:43:34 AM
"Meal Team Six".  :rofl:

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2020/05/06/meal-team-six-heres-the-ector-county-sheriffs-department-in-action-while-closing-down-that-bar-on-tuesday/

"The Thick Blue Line"  :laugh:

Not funny that they're rolling out SWAT teams for this nonsense, though. What is going on in West Texas? Is that Karen Kounty, or something? ???


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on May 06, 2020, 05:25:26 PM
Survived Menards, was not required to wear a mask, about half the employees were, since I was wearing my white hat, red bandana, spurs, and SAA, I played it safe an walked around the store masked.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ben on May 07, 2020, 04:29:19 AM
The "experts" need to make up their minds on the masks.

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2020/05/07/dr-michael-osterholm-masks-for-the-general-public-just-dont-help-all-that-much/

When I was at Costco Tuesday, I wore an N99, which of course I had in my "crazy prepper" stockpile from well before the virus.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: MechAg94 on May 07, 2020, 05:08:05 AM
I am not sure masks would really help the individual person or not especially if they are already maintaining distance from others.  I think you can make a case for masks helping a store and its employees by keeping the numerous customers from leaving as many germs behind as they come and go.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: 230RN on May 07, 2020, 05:29:01 AM
The "experts" need to make up their minds on the masks.

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2020/05/07/dr-michael-osterholm-masks-for-the-general-public-just-dont-help-all-that-much/

When I was at Costco Tuesday, I wore an N99, which of course I had in my "crazy prepper" stockpile from well before the virus.

Once again, its not the odds, it's the stakes.

The good doctor seems to be jumping on the contrarian bandwagon.  It's always "cool" to have an outlying opinion, which engenders the "hey looka me" syndrome, noted formally as that "fifteen minutes of fame" coined by Andy Warhol.

I don't know about you, but if something gives me a 1% (or whatever) edge on survival, and it only costs a buck, I'd go for the buck, bearing in mind that the facemask's "one percent" may affect others as well as myself.

It's not the odds, folks.  It's the stakes.

And it seems that the "self-determination" and "responsible adult" decision-making BS is just another manifestation of that "fifteen minutes of fame," "hey looka me." syndrome.

Put the friggin' mask on, folks.

And remind me to not make any appointments with Dr. Osterholm.

Terry, 230RN


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: dogmush on May 07, 2020, 06:00:42 AM
Terry,  That ignores the fact that the cloth masks most folks are using are in fact a breeding ground for other respitory ailments.

If folks were really useing one time use masks and pitching them, then your argument makes more sense.  There are other diseases out there other than COVID, and honestly, just breathing through a damp, warm cloth all day is likely to cause issues.  With similar stakes and higher odds.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on May 07, 2020, 06:08:54 AM

Put the friggin' mask on, folks.


There's no need to be rude.

And no, thank you.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: WLJ on May 07, 2020, 06:15:01 AM
Well I've been told I look better with a mask on so there's that.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: zxcvbob on May 07, 2020, 06:53:12 AM
Terry,  That ignores the fact that the cloth masks most folks are using are in fact a breeding ground for other respitory ailments.

If folks were really useing one time use masks and pitching them, then your argument makes more sense.  There are other diseases out there other than COVID, and honestly, just breathing through a damp, warm cloth all day is likely to cause issues.  With similar stakes and higher odds.

I'm reusing a single-use N95 mask over and over, but only for an hour or two at a time.  When I take it off, I spray it with lysol and let it air-out for a day or two before I use it again.  Is that reasonable?  I'm just spraying it lightly, maybe I should be washing them in a weak solution of quat.  I have two N95's so I can alternate them but I haven't been.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: 230RN on May 07, 2020, 07:12:29 AM
I'm reusing a single-use N95 mask over and over, but only for an hour or two at a time.  When I take it off, I spray it with lysol and let it air-out for a day or two before I use it again.  Is that reasonable?  I'm just spraying it lightly, maybe I should be washing them in a weak solution of quat.  I have two N95's so I can alternate them but I haven't been.

Thank you.  That business of trapping other organisms is a different problem and has a ready solution, i.e. spraying with disinfectant.  (Alcohol for me, between uses, and little "airing-out" time needed.)  Also, another solution is changing masks.  I'm lucky that I got four or five of them from a retired nurse friend and those others are for when the first one starts tattering.  (Or, more likely, when the elastic gives up.)

IOW, the problem of infested masks is only a problem if you let it be such, and does not obviate the principle that "it's the stakes, not the odds."

In more "other words," even a 1% (or whatever) effectiveness is better than no effectiveness, and Dr. Whosiwatsis is full of it.  This, assuming he wasn't prompted into saying that stuff by an over eager reporter under the direction of an over eager editor wanting a story, any story, they could "punch up."

Terry, 230RN


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: dogmush on May 07, 2020, 08:57:35 AM
I disagree.

I'm reasonably healthy and living in an austere environment where I don't have access to ANY medical masks. I am being forced to make do with makeshift cloth face coverings, and am mandated to have them with me at all times, and wear them in most places I work, eat, and shop.

I have a limited amount of time and resources to wash *expletive deleted*it daily, or even every 3 days.

Other peoples paranoia is actively putting me at more risk with a mask than without. And that's not even taking into account  the comfort and added heat injury risks.

If you want to wear a mask, or spray lysol in it (which is not an inhalant) rock on, I don't care. But stop trying to mandate others, or pretend like it's not unreasonable to dictate other peoples health choices.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on May 07, 2020, 09:49:48 AM
(https://cdn.ricochet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/my-body-my-choice-750x764.jpg)


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Andiron on May 07, 2020, 06:10:33 PM


Put the friggin' mask on, folks.



No.

I'm done playing the governor's stupid game of simon says, much less peer pressure to add some pointless, annoying gesture to my day.

Planning a giant cook out and shoot  er... Bible study next weekend.  One part *expletive deleted*ck the lockdown,  another "let's see what the local sheriff's dept will do".


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: zxcvbob on May 07, 2020, 07:33:04 PM
Quote
If you want to wear a mask, or spray lysol in it (which is not an inhalant) rock on, I don't care. But stop trying to mandate others, or pretend like it's not unreasonable to dictate other peoples health choices.

I posted about the lysol to maybe get some comments on whether that was a good idea or not.  I know it's not an inhalant, but after spraying I don't wear the mask for a day or two (so I'm not sure the lysol really does anything more than fresh air.  But I think it kills bacteria that might cause problems; the virus would die anyway in that span)  I have a good engineering mind and can work with incomplete and poor quality data, but I can't find *any* data that I trust on this thing.  I'm doing the best I can with that.

It most certainly is unreasonable to dictate other ppl's health choices; I never said otherwise (I don't know if you were talking to me on that point) I wear a mask because I choose to, and it actually irritates me that that coincides with what's being mandated. ;)  You can do whatever you want.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ron on May 08, 2020, 04:19:24 AM
I posted about the lysol to maybe get some comments on whether that was a good idea or not.  I know it's not an inhalant, but after spraying I don't wear the mask for a day or two (so I'm not sure the lysol really does anything more than fresh air.  But I think it kills bacteria that might cause problems; the virus would die anyway in that span)  I have a good engineering mind and can work with incomplete and poor quality data, but I can't find *any* data that I trust on this thing.  I'm doing the best I can with that.

It most certainly is unreasonable to dictate other ppl's health choices; I never said otherwise (I don't know if you were talking to me on that point) I wear a mask because I choose to, and it actually irritates me that that coincides with what's being mandated. ;)  You can do whatever you want.

Soap and water in the sink, air dry over night.

It might be my imagination but with all the Virex, rubbing alcohol, Clorox wipes and antibacterial soaps being used at work I feel like my seasonal allergies are worse this year.

I'm experiencing the same fatigue as many others of all the fear/panic/anxiety being pushed on us through the media. When you're surrounded by neurotic behavior and people everywhere it starts to wear and rub off on you a little.

I will not be surprised if five years from now I'm bowing my head in shame that I allowed myself to be so "gaslighted", especially early on in the attack.

There just is no good trustworthy source of information.



Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: MechAg94 on May 08, 2020, 04:44:14 AM
It certainly is possible the over-reaction of the more concerned among us is making it less likely that reasonable steps will be maintained going forward by everyone else.  Nothing new about that. 


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: 230RN on May 08, 2020, 07:09:21 AM
=D >  Well, everyone's got the right to petition the government for the redress of grievances. < =D

:rofl:


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on May 08, 2020, 09:28:40 AM
Why is there no mask emoji for comments on this site?  :mad:


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: adively on May 08, 2020, 09:38:19 AM
I posted this over in the megathread, but it goes here as well.

For Ben and Millcreek

(https://i.redd.it/puzqvudhhgx41.jpg)


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: 230RN on May 08, 2020, 02:59:41 PM
Well, as long as you said please.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on May 13, 2020, 04:48:42 PM
https://thefederalist.com/2020/05/13/joe-biden-must-wear-a-face-mask-right-now/


Quote

The good news is that without a doubt, very soon our fair-minded news media will be hounding Joe Biden for his callous and mysoginistic failure to put on a medical mask. Just as they have criticized president Trump they will apply the same standard to his Democratic opponent as they always do.

Put on the mask, Joe. Quit being such a baby. What are you afraid of? That the picture will become iconic? That it might be used in political ads against you? Does that really matter at a time like this? This is a time when America needs leadership, not strong, masculine leadership, but the opposite of that, whatever that is. Put on the mask, Joe. Our lives depend on it.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Andiron on July 18, 2020, 06:48:35 AM
Necro,  since there have been sweeping mask mandates in the past few weeks.

I still think they're pointless and the order unlawful.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: zxcvbob on July 18, 2020, 08:56:50 AM
Necro,  since there have been sweeping mask mandates in the past few weeks.

I still think they're pointless and the order unlawful.

I think the masks are a good idea.  And the order is unlawful.  (don't remember if I've said that already)


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: bedlamite on July 18, 2020, 09:07:31 AM
Cloth masks may do more harm than good:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25903751/

Quote
Cloth masks also had significantly higher rates of ILI compared with the control arm.



Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: dogmush on July 18, 2020, 09:15:33 AM
Cloth masks may do more harm than good:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25903751/



That is 100% not what that study shows.  You might want to read it again.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on July 18, 2020, 05:02:57 PM
Finally ran through my lumber stash, needed to get some treated lumber to replace some rotten boards on my patio shade. Menards where I live requires masks now as of July 13, so I strapped on one, went into the store, it was quite dead. Either because it's 95 degrees or have to wear mask, don't care, no waiting in line at building materials and I scored some quat wipes too. Maybe I'll embrace the mask if it keeps the mouth breathers away.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Jim147 on July 18, 2020, 05:48:54 PM
Talking to friends that have been driving across Kansas,that went mandatory last week, outside of the big city's its about 10% masks. Mainly the older folks at risk.

I'm in the high risk group so I always have several with me. Working at the food bank yesterday at around 115 heat index we wore them if someone came to pick up wearing them. It was just to hot to keep them on the whole time.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Boomhauer on July 18, 2020, 06:33:25 PM
The city council (Populated by little bitches) of my hometown just made masks mandatory last week because the local paper has a whiny little *expletive deleted*ck reporter who went into the city and county admin buildings and covertly took photos of both my mom and my wife not wearing masks (all employees behind plexiglass shields though) and published a muckracking ôexposeö of how the city and county governments didnĺt care enough to mandate masks.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: 230RN on July 18, 2020, 06:53:14 PM
Well, filtering efficiency and all the other pros and cons aside, any mask will tend to inhibit touching your nose and mouth with germ-laden fingers and also tend to inhibit touching your germ-laden nose and mouth with your fingers.

Thus largely eliminating that two-way transmission mode.

That's good enough reason for me to wear one.

Terry, 230RN


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on July 19, 2020, 02:20:40 PM
The lock-downs lasted for months, and some places are locking down again. How many months are people going to keep wearing masks? There's talk of a vaccine coming at the end of this year, or beginning of next year. Till then? Or however many years it takes to get one?


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: dogmush on July 19, 2020, 03:23:51 PM
Masks are pretty much a normal sight in several other countries, especially ones with high population densities.   It wouldn't surprise me at all if, at least in dense cities, masks are a common sight from here on out.

As far as local.gov mandates? I suspect their length is going to depend on how many lawsuits we see about executive over reach.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: TommyGunn on July 19, 2020, 08:16:15 PM
Masks are pretty much a normal sight in several other countries, especially ones with high population densities.   It wouldn't surprise me at all if, at least in dense cities, masks are a common sight from here on out.

As far as local.gov mandates? I suspect their length is going to depend on how many lawsuits we see about executive over reach.

You mean like,  from now until doomsday?   :O


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on July 19, 2020, 09:09:51 PM
Masks are pretty much a normal sight in several other countries, especially ones with high population densities.   It wouldn't surprise me at all if, at least in dense cities, masks are a common sight from here on out.

As far as local.gov mandates? I suspect their length is going to depend on how many lawsuits we see about executive over reach.

This isn't several other countries, though. How long will Americans bother with it?


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: dogmush on July 20, 2020, 03:41:57 AM
Perhaps I was unclear?

I think it's likely that there will be some Americans, especially in densely populated cities, that just wear masks in public now.  I think that it (mask wearing) is just going to be something you see sometimes. Like Islamic head coverings or Uggs.  The actual individuals will change (perhaps Martha feels sick today, but it'll be Karen next week) but I think you will see masks as a not uncommon sight in America from now on.  Like it is in several other countries.

I think between the added fear of a pandemic that affected them, the country wide inability to make informed risk management decisions,  and the amount of virtue invested in making by a lot of people  it's part of the American culture now.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ben on July 20, 2020, 04:00:12 AM
Perhaps I was unclear?

I think it's likely that there will be some Americans, especially in densely populated cities, that just wear masks in public now.  I think that it (mask wearing) is just going to be something you see sometimes. Like Islamic head coverings or Uggs.  The actual individuals will change (perhaps Martha feels sick today, but it'll be Karen next week) but I think you will see masks as a not uncommon sight in America from now on.  Like it is in several other countries.

I think between the added fear of a pandemic that affected them, the country wide inability to make informed risk management decisions,  and the amount of virtue invested in making by a lot of people  it's part of the American culture now.


Actually, that might be one good thing coming out of all this. Though I don't work anymore, there were plenty of times when I did when it would have been nice if one of the, "The office can't run without me, I'm too important!" people who insisted on coming in sick wore a mask and socially distanced, or if it wouldn't have seemed weird for me to put one on when they didn't.

Maybe at least some part of the population will put on a mask when they're sick with a cold or the flu, but still out and about in public.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on July 20, 2020, 04:17:10 AM
I wasn't talking about a few people wearing masks when they are sick. I seem to recall seeing that before the pandemic. I'm talking about what is happening now, where the majority of people in a given store are wearing masks, presumably with no symptoms.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: dogmush on July 20, 2020, 04:34:31 AM
Just spitballing?

On a scale of Tokyo where pre pandemic masks were a common unremarkable sight and Mayberry where a mask meant you were robbing someone?  My SWAG is that in American cities you will see somewhere between one and 5 and 1 in 10 folks have a face covering from here on out.  There will be sub-cultures where it's more common, and some where it's less, but I really think masks are just a part of the American landscape now.

This is based on my gut feeling, my watching of social media mask (and no mask) justification and rants, and my observation that folks seem to like having something wrong (or special)* with them and their kids these days and mask wear is an easy "We're special" signal.


*Everything from depressino, to ADHD, to peanut allergies, to "The Spectrum"; It seems everyone has a diagnosis of some kind, or is going to go get one.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ben on July 20, 2020, 04:37:59 AM
I wasn't talking about a few people wearing masks when they are sick. I seem to recall seeing that before the pandemic. I'm talking about what is happening now, where the majority of people in a given store are wearing masks, presumably with no symptoms.

I understand that, but at least where I have lived, it was rare to see someone with a mask in a situation where it might actually have been a good and reasonable idea. I was saying above that when all this blows over, perhaps a remnant of the panic will be that more people will be comfortable wearing a mask when it makes sense without others thinking they are some kind of weirdos or something.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ron on July 20, 2020, 06:08:59 AM
Masks in public during flu season will bother me a lot less than the disgusting customers who come to my place of business every season leaking out of their nose, coughing sniffling and sneezing spreading their infection.

It used to be a real problem in my retail location keeping coworkers from coming in when sick, bet that won't be as much of a problem going forward.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: TommyGunn on July 20, 2020, 07:08:40 AM
Perhaps I was unclear?

I think it's likely that there will be some Americans, especially in densely populated cities, that just wear masks in public now.  I think that it (mask wearing) is just going to be something you see sometimes. Like Islamic head coverings or Uggs.  The actual individuals will change (perhaps Martha feels sick today, but it'll be Karen next week) but I think you will see masks as a not uncommon sight in America from now on.  Like it is in several other countries.

I think between the added fear of a pandemic that affected them, the country wide inability to make informed risk management decisions,  and the amount of virtue invested in making by a lot of people  it's part of the American culture now.

That people would continue using masks after THE ANDROMEDA STRAIN ( [tinfoil])  pandemic is over would disturb me.  It IS NOT a fashion statement.  It is at best a  barely reasonable effort to arrest a pandemic.  A pandemic caused by a tiny RNA particle in a lipid shell and a pandemic of fear and wrist-wringing.
Ok....masks have some utility.  A lot of places have proclamations to use them.   After the last covid19 patient dies,   the mask should be tossed into the dustbin of history.

PERIOD!!!


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: RoadKingLarry on July 20, 2020, 07:12:14 AM
I think a big part of the whole coming to work even when you are sick comes from a corporate culture of either you don't get paid sick days so lose money or you get sick days but if you take them you get some kind of punishment for it.  I've been in both situations during my working life.

As to mandatory masks, I'm against the mandatory part but accept that in certain situations a mask is a pretty good idea though I tend not to wear one unless at a medical facility.

Of course the plus side of masks is that they do a pretty good job of defeating facial recognition.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: makattak on July 20, 2020, 07:15:51 AM
I asked my mom to crochet me a mask so I can be in compliance.

It's made with multicolored yarn and looks absolutely ridiculous. It rather perfectly illustrates my opinion of the mask kabuki for a disease that's about as dangerous as a bad flu to healthy individuals.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ben on July 20, 2020, 07:21:39 AM
That people would continue using masks after THE ANDROMEDA STRAIN ( [tinfoil])  pandemic is over would disturb me.  It IS NOT a fashion statement.  It is at best a  barely reasonable effort to arrest a pandemic.  A pandemic caused by a tiny RNA particle in a lipid shell and a pandemic of fear and wrist-wringing.
Ok....masks have some utility.  A lot of places have proclamations to use them.   After the last covid19 patient dies,   the mask should be tossed into the dustbin of history.

PERIOD!!!

So a proper and properly worn mask NEVER makes sense?  ???


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: RoadKingLarry on July 20, 2020, 07:30:29 AM
I asked my mom to crochet me a mask so I can be in compliance.

It's made with multicolored yarn and looks absolutely ridiculous. It rather perfectly illustrates my opinion of the mask kabuki for a disease that's about as dangerous as a bad flu to healthy individuals.

A man walks down the street in a hat mask like that, people know he's not afraid of anything


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: TommyGunn on July 20, 2020, 07:33:47 AM
So a proper and properly worn mask NEVER makes sense?  ???

Just where in tarnation  did you read THAT in what I stated? ? ? ? :facepalm:

I said they *could* help in slowing a pandemic ....   *SIGH* ....


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Brad Johnson on July 20, 2020, 07:34:21 AM
If the Dumb.Gov would leave mask requirements up to individual business owners, I'm good with that. It leaves the choice where it should be.

I'm drafting a letter right now (physical letter, not email), that suggests that very thing. Mask mandates limited to state facilities only, which is their prerogative, but otherwise leave businesses and persons to make their own choices. It's their right to choose who they serve and how they serve them. Enforcement limited to being asked to leave. If an individual refuses to leave after being asked to do so by the owner, there are other statutes which come into play (trespassing, criminal mischief, etc) so there is no need for an added layer of complexity. Municipal entities are limited in the same fashion... mask mandates limited to their offices/facilities, and enforcement limited to asked non-complying persons to leave.

Also, individuals cannot be fined or arrested for non-compliance unless other factors are at play, things like threats of harm, overtly aggressive behaviors, vandalism, etc, which already have statutory teeth. That will quash this BS heavy-handedness that's cropping up all over the place.

Brad


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: dogmush on July 20, 2020, 07:45:48 AM
I don't disagree that it should not be a .gov mandate (or if it is it needs to be legislated, not an executive fiat, but THAT'S a whole 'nother thread) but what heavy handedness on the part of the .gov are you seeing?

I see lots of mask mandates from state and local govs, and I've seen signs in the four states I've been in this month, but I have seen zero government enforcement of mask mandates either in person or on the ever-present social media, and I suspect You would see that pretty quick. 

Busybody Karen's mask shaming?  You betcha.  Heavy handed .gov enforcement of mask mandates?  Like ROUS's I don't think it exists.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Jim147 on July 20, 2020, 08:05:34 AM
My memory really sucks these days but i think it was New York City that was bring in extra forces to spot check businesses to see if they were enforcing the mask mandated. They could loose their busines license for non compliance.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Brad Johnson on July 20, 2020, 08:21:46 AM

I don't disagree that it should not be a .gov mandate (or if it is it needs to be legislated, not an executive fiat, but THAT'S a whole 'nother thread) but what heavy handedness on the part of the .gov are you seeing?


https://www.foxnews.com/us/kentucky-couple-house-arrest-ankle-monitors-coronavirus-quarantine-documents

https://www.everythinglubbock.com/news/ector-county-swat-team-raids-local-bar-for-protesting-to-reopen/

Those are just the first two that came to mind.

I should clarify that the letter I'm writing also speaks to business closures and restrictions on the Gov's ability to close slected businesses for "public safety" reasons. If the business chooses to close, fine. That's the owner's choice. However, the State-level EO-based business closures under the threat of loss of licensure or operating permit are absolutely not permitted and any bureaucrat, up to and including the governor, who tries to exercise that option should be prosecuted under RICO.

Brad


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Big Hairy Bee on July 20, 2020, 08:34:11 AM
Just where in tarnation  did you read THAT in what I stated? ? ? ? :facepalm:

I said they *could* help in slowing a pandemic ....   *SIGH* ....

It's a Firefly reference:

https://youtu.be/WN49TDIY-Sk


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: makattak on July 20, 2020, 08:35:43 AM
A man walks down the street in a hat mask like that, people know he's not afraid of anything

OH, I have the Jayne hat too. I should wear them both together.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: 230RN on July 20, 2020, 09:39:16 AM
...

Of course the plus side of masks is that they do a pretty good job of defeating facial recognition.

Shhhh.... don't let Mayor de Blasio or Colorado Governor Polis hear that or they'll want all masks to be serialized.  Shhhh...


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: dogmush on July 20, 2020, 09:45:36 AM
https://www.foxnews.com/us/kentucky-couple-house-arrest-ankle-monitors-coronavirus-quarantine-documents

https://www.everythinglubbock.com/news/ector-county-swat-team-raids-local-bar-for-protesting-to-reopen/

Those are just the first two that came to mind.

I should clarify that the letter I'm writing also speaks to business closures and restrictions on the Gov's ability to close slected businesses for "public safety" reasons. If the business chooses to close, fine. That's the owner's choice. However, the State-level EO-based business closures under the threat of loss of licensure or operating permit are absolutely not permitted and any bureaucrat, up to and including the governor, who tries to exercise that option should be prosecuted under RICO.

Brad

Sure.  I knew about those. Although the house arrest couple I don't know anything more than the headline.  I haven't really done any research on those.

I was confining my comments to masks mandates only.  Of all the things that LE and .gov seems to be overreaching on and acting like thugs, enforcing questionably legal mask mandates seem to be the only thing they aren't being thuggish about.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Brad Johnson on July 20, 2020, 10:56:27 AM
I was confining my comments to masks mandates only.  Of all the things that LE and .gov seems to be overreaching on and acting like thugs, enforcing questionably legal mask mandates seem to be the only thing they aren't being thuggish about.

Anything they have the ability to overuse, they will. To presume otherwise is folly. If not the police and politicians weaponizing it, then hysterical citizens and zealous special interest groups.

Brad


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Jim147 on July 20, 2020, 11:56:17 AM
Here is one of many I found quickly.

https://www.virginiamercury.com/2020/07/14/citing-noncompliance-northam-steps-up-enforcement-of-states-mask-order/


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: dogmush on July 20, 2020, 12:35:46 PM
Unless Gov. Northam is personally revoking licenses there isn't any enforcement in that article, much less heavy handed enforcement.

Mask mandates are a touchy subject for many, so I have been paying a little bit of attention.  I have seen videos of LEO's giving trespassing warnings at the request of store management for mask non-compliance, and NVPD officers walking around issuing "warnings".  But that's about it, and NYPD will arrest you for selling loose cigarettes, so that seems pretty mild.

THere are enough areas of significant government overstep, both from executives and local "health boards" as well as overzelous law enforcement (the paddle boarder, Brads link to the bar in TX, spouses being forced apart, etc) having to do with this pandemic that I'm not going to borrow trouble.  SO FAR I have seen no overzealous or heavy-handed enforcement of mask mandates.  Governor's bloviating?  Definitely.  but very little enforcement.  YMMV.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: 230RN on July 20, 2020, 03:14:29 PM
...


Post withdrawn for lack of corroborating evidence.

I'm really disappointed in how much data-scrubbing the MSM commits.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Angel Eyes on July 20, 2020, 03:42:25 PM
https://www.9news.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/confrontation-mask-denver-area-liquor-store-viral/73-a70211e8-059d-43ac-a4bf-1dea8a936ade


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: MillCreek on July 20, 2020, 04:26:34 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/20/politics/donald-trump-mask-tweet/index.html

Meanwhile, the President himself says that wearing a mask is patriotic.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on July 20, 2020, 04:41:07 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/20/politics/donald-trump-mask-tweet/index.html

Meanwhile, the President himself says that wearing a mask is patriotic.

Just like that, everyone on APS is cool with wearing a mask.  :rofl:


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on July 20, 2020, 05:03:49 PM
https://www.9news.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/confrontation-mask-denver-area-liquor-store-viral/73-a70211e8-059d-43ac-a4bf-1dea8a936ade


That liquor store will be forced to bake the cake, right?  ;/


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Hawkmoon on July 20, 2020, 05:04:17 PM
https://www.foxnews.com/us/kentucky-couple-house-arrest-ankle-monitors-coronavirus-quarantine-documents

https://www.everythinglubbock.com/news/ector-county-swat-team-raids-local-bar-for-protesting-to-reopen/

Those are just the first two that came to mind.


And neither is a mask issue.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on July 20, 2020, 05:05:15 PM
Just like that, everyone on APS is cool with wearing a mask.  :rofl:

More likely, lefties will now refuse to wear the fascist masks of Trump's fascist goon army.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: RocketMan on July 20, 2020, 05:41:35 PM
Busybody Karen's mask shaming?  You betcha.  Heavy handed .gov enforcement of mask mandates?  Like ROUS's I don't think it exists.

It exists in NC.  My wife's hair dresser was checked three times by govt. folks in the first week of the mask mandate.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ben on July 20, 2020, 05:58:57 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/20/politics/donald-trump-mask-tweet/index.html

Meanwhile, the President himself says that wearing a mask is patriotic.

So I guess the MSM now has to go back to telling everyone that they're murderers if they wear a mask, like they did back in February.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Angel Eyes on July 20, 2020, 06:52:02 PM
That liquor store will be forced to bake the cake, right?  ;/

At least she didn't pee on the floor:

https://www.theblaze.com/news/anti-mask-customer-pees-on-floor




Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: 230RN on July 21, 2020, 05:29:40 AM
FWIW about Colorado's "Mask Order"

Transcripted from:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CxNoP9q1oaTgelW9BqLSvbNCX42BUMbnUw-kizMc5X0/edit

Not edited by me for spacing, line wraps or other errors.
-------------------------------------
COVID-19 Questions & answers about the statewide mandatory mask order

ABOUT THE EXECUTIVE ORDER

What is the statewide mandatory mask order?

● Executive Order D 2020 138 requires people in Colorado all individuals over ten (10) years old must wear a face covering over their noses and mouths:

○ When entering or moving within any public indoor space.

○ While using or waiting to use public (buses, light-rail) or non-personal (taxis, car services, ride-shares) transportation services.

● People do not need to wear a mask when they are:

○ Hearing-impaired or otherwise disabled or who are communicating with someone who is hearing impaired or otherwise disabled and where the ability to see the mouth is essential to communication.

○ Seated at a food service establishment.

○ Exercising alone or with others from the individualĺs household, and a face covering would interfere with the activity.

○ Receiving a personal service where the temporary removal of the face-covering is necessary to perform the service.

○ Entering a business or receiving services and are asked to temporarily remove a face covering for identification purposes.

○ Are actively engaged in a public safety role such as law enforcement, firefighters, or emergency medical personnel.

○ Officiating at a religious service.

○ Giving a speech for broadcast or an audience.

When does this executive order go into effect?

● The mandatory statewide mask order goes into effect at midnight on July 16, 2020, and is in effect for 30 days. The executive order may be extended.

What is a public indoor space?

● For the mask order, ôpublic indoor spaceö means a publicly or privately owned, managed or operated, enclosed indoor area that is accessible to the public, is a place of employment, or is an entity that provides services. Public indoor space does not mean a personĺs residence, including a room in a motel or hotel or a residential room for students at an educational facility. Public indoor spaces include but are not limited to:

○ Government buildings

○ Nonprofits

○ Transportation

○ Houses of worship

○ Private country clubs or social clubs

○ Grocery stores

○ Hair salons

○ All offices, lobbies, elevators

○ Malls, retail stores

○ Indoor businesses, common areas

○ Medical facilities, nursing homes

○ Restaurants (if not seated)

○ Libraries

○ Museums

○ Theaters

○ Casinos

○ Gyms, including areas around indoor pools but not while swimming in the pool

○ If a business or entity provides services or goods both indoors and outdoors at a single location, a mask must be worn in the indoor portion of that business or entity

○ All enclosed indoor areas, whether publicly or privately owned or managed, except an individualĺs residence

Is the mask order a law?

● Yes, executive orders and public health orders have the force of law. People who do not comply with the executive order may be subject to civil or criminal penalties.

Why did the state wait until now to issue mandatory mask orders?

● The governor and state public health officials know masks are one of the most effective tools we currently have to limit the spread of COVID-19, but orders are often best issued and enforced at the local level. While more than thirty-nine (39) Colorado cities and counties have mask orders, others do not. A statewide order helps eliminate confusion and makes mask requirements more consistent across the state.

● Many business owners asked for this statewide order because it eliminates inconsistency for patrons from different counties. The executive order requires businesses to refuse service to customers who are not wearing masks, which in turn will help slow the spread of the virus and ensure businesses can remain open with precautions during the pandemic.

Why is age 10 the cutoff for the mask requirement?

● Children 10 years and younger are not required to wear masks because the evidence so far has shown that children in this age group are much less likely to spread COVID-19 than older children and adults. It is also less likely that children of this age will wear a mask correctly.

Who has to wear a mask?

● The order applies to people in Colorado age 11 years and older when they are in a public indoor space or when they are waiting for or using public transportation or ride-shares.

Who does not have to wear a mask?

● People who are 10 years old and younger.

● People who cannot medically tolerate a face covering.

● Children ages 2 and under should NOT wear masks or cloth face coverings.

What does it mean to be unable to medically tolerate a face covering?

● Essentially, this means a person who has trouble breathing or anyone who is unconscious, incapacitated, or otherwise unable to remove the cloth face-covering without assistance, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Read more from the CDC about other reasons face coverings may not be possible in every situation or for some people.

Do I have to wear a mask when I exercise indoors?

● You do not have to wear a mask if you are exercising alone or with others from your own household. But, if you are exercising with a group of people in a public indoor space, then yes, you must wear a mask.

What if Iĺm swimming in an indoor pool?

● You should take your mask off while swimming in the pool but you must put it back on while you are not swimming but in the pool area.

Do I have to wear a mask outdoors?

● The executive order does not state that you must wear a mask outdoors unless you are waiting on public or non-personal transportation.

● However, it is best to wear a mask whenever you cannot keep a safe distance (at least 6 feet) from other people. We encourage you to wear a mask whenever you are in crowded spaces, either indoors or out.

Do I have to wear a mask at grocery or hardware stores?

● Yes, you must wear a mask when entering any kind of store.

Do I have to wear a mask at a restaurant?

● Yes, you must wear a mask when entering or exiting a restaurant. You may take the mask off when you are seated but must put it back on when you stand up to use the restroom or to leave.

Does this apply to houses of worship?

● Yes, this applies to any indoor setting open to members of the public. If there are certain religious spaces where members of the public are not allowed, such as spaces only accessible by clergy, then this does not apply to those limited settings. Individuals officiating a religious service are not required to wear masks but are encouraged to do so if feasible.

MASKS AND LOCAL GOVERNMENTS

Can cities and counties opt out of the statewide mask order?

● Counties that are certified for Protect Our Neighbors status may choose to be exempt from the statewide mask order.

Can counties or municipalities have more restrictive orders?

● Yes, counties and municipalities can adopt stricter standards than the statewide order.

How do I know if my county or municipality has different orders?

● Your local public health agency is a good source of information for orders within your county.

MASKS AND BUSINESSES

What do businesses need to do to comply with the mask order?

● The executive order states indoor businesses must refuse service to people who are not wearing masks.

● Businesses must post signs at entrances that instruct customers they must wear a mask when entering or moving around inside the business.

ENFORCEMENT

What will happen if I refuse to wear a mask?

● If you refuse to wear a mask as required in the executive order, you are violating a Colorado law and are subject to civil or criminal penalties.

● If you try to enter a store without a mask, you may be prosecuted for trespassing.

What happens if a business does not comply with the mask order?

● A licensed business is at risk of losing its license.

What should business owners or employees do if patrons refuse to wear a mask?

● Business owners should refuse service to individuals not wearing masks.

MASK BASICS

Is there a specific kind of mask people need to wear?

● You should wear something that covers your nose and mouth -- a cloth face covering or a disposable mask.

● The best mask for you is one you can wear comfortably and consistently. Any mask or face-covering that covers the nose and mouth will work.

● We continue to encourage you to use cloth face coverings to preserve medical mask supplies for health care and other essential workers.

What is the difference between a mask and a face covering?

● Masks and face-coverings are interchangeable terms. Cloth masks or face coverings or disposable masks are acceptable as long as they cover the nose and mouth.

● People may wear surgical or other, more protective masks, but we encourage people to use cloth face coverings to preserve medical masks for health care and other essential workers.

● While at work, people should wear masks appropriate to the business in which they work.

If we are social distancing, why do we still need to wear masks?

● It is becoming increasingly evident that masks are an inexpensive and easy way to limit disease spread. Together, masks and distancing offer a greater measure of protection. We strongly encourage all people in Colorado to practice the Big 3: Wear a mask. Wash your hands. Keep your distance.

● Face coverings are most essential when distancing is difficult. People who are unable to wear a face-covering should take other measures to reduce their risk, including distancing, frequent hand washing, and disinfecting surfaces.

Where do I get a mask?

● You can make or buy your own. You can use a bandana or scarf. ColoradoMaskProject.com has resources to help you make or buy a mask. The CDC has a video about making your own mask.

How should a mask fit?

● Face coverings should:

○ Fit snugly but comfortably against the side of the face.

○ Be secured with ties or ear loops.

○ Include multiple layers of fabric.

○ Allow for breathing without restriction.

○ Be able to be laundered and machine dried without damage or change to shape.

○ Cover your nose and mouth. Wearing them under your nose or chin is ineffective.

How do I clean and sterilize my mask?

● Wash your cloth mask regularly with your regular laundry.

How do I put on and take off the mask?

● Try not to touch your eyes, nose, or mouth when putting on and taking off your face covering. Hold the mask by the corners and avoid touching the front or back of it. Wash your hands before putting your mask on and right after you remove it.

Where can I find out more?

● The CDC and CDPHE web pages are excellent resources.

Can I get carbon dioxide poisoning or lowered oxygen levels from wearing a mask?

● According to the Mayo Clinic Health System, ôfor many years, health care providers have worn masks for extended periods of time with no adverse health reactions ... there is no risk of hypoxia, which is lower oxygen levels, in healthy adults. Carbon dioxide will freely diffuse through your mask as you breathe.ö

What is the most recent science behind universal mask-wearing?

● Masks appear to help keep the person wearing the mask from spreading COVID-19 to others by reducing the amount and distance infectious particles can spread through partial filtering of said particles.

● New evidence also suggests masks may also partially protect the wearer, especially from severe infection, by potentially reducing viral inoculation dose and/or face touching.

● Individuals are thought to be best protected when both they and most others in their community wear masks.

● In one instance, infected passengers on the Diamond Princess cruise ship, where widespread masking was not used during an outbreak, had only an 18% asymptomatic rate. Infected passengers on the Ernest Shackleton cruise ship, where widespread masking was implemented during an outbreak, had an 81% asymptomatic rate.

● In another instance, a seafood processing plant in Oregon that implemented universal mask-wearing had a 95% asymptomatic rate among 124 infected workers.

● In yet another instance, two infected hair salon employees in Missouri did not transmit any apparent infections to any of their 137 clients in the setting of mask use by them and nearly all of their clients.

● Hamsters simulated to wear masks had less severe COVID-19 infection than hamsters who were not simulated to wear masks when exposed to the virus.

● A recent meta-analysis suggests mask use may reduce infection rates by nearly 65%.

● A CDC editorial providing further evidence and advocating for universal mask-wearing is here.

UPDATED 071620

Terry, in the role of messenger only, 230RN



Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fifth_column on July 21, 2020, 05:41:20 AM
Now I'm wondering how one simulates a hamster mask . . . .


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: 230RN on July 21, 2020, 05:49:56 AM
Dirty old man me was amused that the mask could be removed for personal services.

Quote
○ Receiving a personal service where the temporary removal of the face-covering is necessary to perform the service.

Of course they mean as in dentistry, ENT exams and the like.  But.  Dirty old man me.

I'm not signing this one so nobody will know who posted it.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Mike Irwin on July 21, 2020, 06:02:40 AM
There's been some rumblings in Virginia about mandating masks when outdoors.

Screw that. It's hard enough to breath the pea soup air that we have in Virginia in summer without a mask, I'll be goddamned if I'm going to wear one when walking Seren and I'm not within 50 yards of another person.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: 230RN on July 21, 2020, 06:15:17 AM
Am I foreseeing a grey market in faux masks that only look legitimate?

I'll have to re-read that FAQ but I don't recall seeing anything about beards or shaving.  I remember having to shave my own beard when I worked in a place that required full-face cartridge-filtered masks.

I tried a text search on "bear" and "shav" and nothing came up.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on July 21, 2020, 06:18:01 AM
Am I foreseeing a grey market in faux masks that only look legitimate?

That would be interesting. Body paint?


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: dogmush on July 21, 2020, 06:33:27 AM
Am I foreseeing a grey market in faux masks that only look legitimate?


Not sure there's a market there, given as how the mandates I've seen cover pretty much the bare minimum of face coverings.  Something knit or crocheted might help make the point but is more of a pain to make than a legitimate mask.

The buffs I'm using as masks are a cylinder of fabric.  Cut rectangle, one seam.  Pretty hard to beat that.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: MillCreek on July 21, 2020, 07:16:12 AM
So I get a number of emails or comments from patients or visitors who don't want to follow our mandatory masking policy, and they like to quote HIPAA or the ADA as their 'legal' basis for doing so and refuse to provide any information as to why I should accommodate their refusal. Here is my typical reply and I provide them with a link to a good lay-person level explanation of the ADA on these matters.


If you want a reasonable accommodation to not wearing a mask, the ADA does provide that you have to disclose your medical condition so that the facility can determine if they can provide such an accommodation. If you don't want to disclose your condition or provide documentation of same, the facility does not have to make that accommodation and can bar you from the premises as per their property rights. If the facility determines that making an accommodation poses a direct threat to the facility and people within it, they are not obligated to make the accommodation. Especially in a healthcare facility, infection control issues are a direct threat and are the usual basis for denying an accommodation.  If you have any statutory, regulatory, or case law citations to support your position, or have a court order compelling me to allow you entrance into my facility, I will be pleased to review them.

https://www.adasoutheast.org/ada/publications/legal/ada-and-face-mask-policies.php


I have literally had people go back out to their car and bring back a copy of the US Constitution, Gadsden flag, or one of those fake mask exemption cards to support their position.  They have all been rejected.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Mike Irwin on July 21, 2020, 07:27:21 AM
Why you neo-fascist nazi marxist communist tool of the Democrats, you are!

 :rofl:


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Mike Irwin on July 21, 2020, 07:29:29 AM
Oh, and your link to the policy page is broken...

https://www.adasoutheast.org/ada/public ... licies.php


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: MillCreek on July 21, 2020, 07:47:16 AM
Oh, and your link to the policy page is broken...

https://www.adasoutheast.org/ada/public ... licies.php

Fixt. I see that page was updated just today.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: dogmush on July 21, 2020, 07:52:00 AM
Wait.  There's mask exemption cards?

Will they fit in the document window of my CCW badge holder?


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: zxcvbob on July 21, 2020, 07:56:10 AM
Am I foreseeing a grey market in faux masks that only look legitimate?

I'll have to re-read that FAQ but I don't recall seeing anything about beards or shaving.  I remember having to shave my own beard when I worked in a place that required full-face cartridge-filtered masks.

I tried a text search on "bear" and "shav" and nothing came up.

There is a big market for fake masks.  I'm currently using KN-95 masks that I'm sure are counterfeits (they are too thin to be legit)  Even so they gotta be better than cloth masks.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: MillCreek on July 21, 2020, 08:04:22 AM
Wait.  There's mask exemption cards?

Will they fit in the document window of my CCW badge holder?

They do fit!  The FTBA cards are what I see most frequently, but that website is now closed down.


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/28/us/fake-face-mask-exemption-card-coronavirus.html


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Mike Irwin on July 21, 2020, 08:05:20 AM
Wait.  There's mask exemption cards?

Will they fit in the document window of my CCW badge holder?


 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Mike Irwin on July 21, 2020, 08:11:52 AM
Holy crap, I had not heard of this FTBA thing before!

How much were they charging for one of those cards?

Yes, it's fraud, but gotta admit, it's clever fraud, and like the CCW badges that are sold, are really only separating idiots from their money.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: MillCreek on July 21, 2020, 08:23:06 AM
Holy crap, I had not heard of this FTBA thing before!

How much were they charging for one of those cards?

Yes, it's fraud, but gotta admit, it's clever fraud, and like the CCW badges that are sold, are really only separating idiots from their money.

I know that at one time, the FTBA site was selling them in bulk for relatively cheaply, and they were a multi-card sheet off a color laser printer.  Individuals were then selling them cut to size and laminated, and when I asked patients about them, the typical price was anywhere from $ 25 to 50.  I just checked, and the cards are no longer available on the EBay or Etsy sites.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on July 21, 2020, 09:17:34 AM
I know that at one time, the FTBA site was selling them in bulk for relatively cheaply, and they were a multi-card sheet off a color laser printer.  Individuals were then selling them cut to size and laminated, and when I asked patients about them, the typical price was anywhere from $ 25 to 50.  I just checked, and the cards are no longer available on the EBay or Etsy sites.

I wouldn't be surprised if those cards work at a lot of places.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Mike Irwin on July 21, 2020, 09:34:12 AM
"I wouldn't be surprised if those cards work at a lot of places. "

Now Cletus, you know you can't be a'comin in here without a mask!

No worries, Cletus, ah got's me one of them thar exemptions! See 'har!

Well, Cletus, ah guess y'all can come on in!


You've just watched a scene from the new reality show Dueling Cleti. Tune in next week for more slackjawed fun!


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: 230RN on July 21, 2020, 10:24:52 AM
I know that at one time, the FTBA site was selling them in bulk for relatively cheaply, and they were a multi-card sheet off a color laser printer.  Individuals were then selling them cut to size and laminated, and when I asked patients about them, the typical price was anywhere from $ 25 to 50.  I just checked, and the cards are no longer available on the EBay or Etsy sites.

Hell, there's even a problem with fake service dog vests.

       (http://web-dvm.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Fake-Service-Dogs-Shameful-And-Illegal.jpg)

https://www.dogster.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Fake-Service-Dog-Patches.jpg

http://www.animalsalvation.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Fake-service-dogs-1.jpg

Same sindrome, I guess.

Terry, 230RN

(Yeah, I know how to spell it.)



Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Mike Irwin on July 21, 2020, 10:33:26 AM
How do you know that someone's "service animal" is fake?

The animal is a bigger ahole than the human.


Can't tell you how many times I've seen this in action... Normally a snappy, yappy, ill tempered mutt.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: DittoHead on July 21, 2020, 10:58:10 AM
Quote from: https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/21/trump-tested-coronavirus-multiple-times-day-375957
ôAs Iĺve made clear from this podium, the president is the most tested man in America,ö White House press secretary Kayleigh McEnany told reporters. ôHeĺs tested more than anyone, multiple times a day, and we believe that heĺs acting appropriately.ö

Pressed on her remarks, which were in response to a question regarding the presidentĺs reluctance to wear a face mask in public, McEnany declined to elaborate on the specific number of times Trump is tested in a 24-hour period.

ôHeĺs tested often. Iĺm not going to read out exactly how many times heĺs tested a day, but sometimes it is more than one time a day,ö she said.

If I was tested multiple times a day and everyone I met with was tested beforehand, I probably wouldn't bother to wear a mask either.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: MillCreek on July 21, 2020, 11:46:52 AM
If the President can tolerate multiple tests a day with a nasopharyngeal swab, my hat is off to him.  Once was enough for me.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: dogmush on July 21, 2020, 01:33:07 PM
If I was tested multiple times a day and everyone I met with was tested beforehand, I probably wouldn't bother to wear a mask either.

Sometimes you need to be seen leading from the front.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: TommyGunn on July 21, 2020, 03:35:25 PM
Sometimes you need to be seen leading from the front.

Because no one will do anything unless or until the Prez does it first ..... [tinfoil]     >:D


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: dogmush on July 21, 2020, 03:37:55 PM
Because no one will do anything unless or until the Prez does it first ..... [tinfoil]     >:D

No, that's not what I meant at all. But [this week] the fed.gov is saying you should wear masks in public (I'm pretty sure).  If his agencies are putting that out, he should wear a mask in public as well because it's important to be seen as willing to do the annoying things you are asking others to do. Leadership 101, literally.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: TommyGunn on July 21, 2020, 03:39:29 PM
Well, I was  being sarcastic .... =D


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: MillCreek on July 27, 2020, 11:27:42 AM
https://nypost.com/2020/07/26/couple-wears-swastika-face-masks-at-walmart-in-minnesota/

I have had related issues at some of my clinics: people come in with 'F**k Inslee' (the name of the state governor) printed on the mask.  They then have a choice to remove their offensive material and put on another mask, or they can leave.  And don't tell me that I am oppressing your First Amendment rights; I am not the government and you should have learned the difference in school, dipstick.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Mike Irwin on July 27, 2020, 11:50:12 AM
"I am not the government and you should have learned the difference in school, dipstick."

Well you're positively the worst Hitler who has ever Hitlered! Sieg what the hell, dude!

 :rofl:  :rofl: :rofl:

OK, serious question...

If they were to enter with a Soviet-style hammer & sickle mast, or one with Che' on it, would you also give them change or leave options?

Why or why not?

EDIT IN: Oh, wait, I misread your post. I thought it was you who booted Mr. & Mrs. Himler from your clinic.

Well, if someone did come in with a swastika on their mask, I'm assuming you'd boot them. Now we can loop back to my question about the hammer & sickle/Che masks hypotheticals...



Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: cordex on July 27, 2020, 01:21:12 PM
Our county prosecutor sent out an email to all the LE agencies in the county saying that agencies do not have the authority to enforce it in any way.  I thought that was interesting.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: MechAg94 on July 27, 2020, 01:37:15 PM
"I am not the government and you should have learned the difference in school, dipstick."

Well you're positively the worst Hitler who has ever Hitlered! Sieg what the hell, dude!

 :rofl:  :rofl: :rofl:

OK, serious question...

If they were to enter with a Soviet-style hammer & sickle mast, or one with Che' on it, would you also give them change or leave options?

Why or why not?

EDIT IN: Oh, wait, I misread your post. I thought it was you who booted Mr. & Mrs. Himler from your clinic.

Well, if someone did come in with a swastika on their mask, I'm assuming you'd boot them. Now we can loop back to my question about the hammer & sickle/Che masks hypotheticals...


I thought I saw a Don't Tread On Me mask.  I need to look for those.  We have at least a few more months of this crap.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Jim147 on July 27, 2020, 02:22:05 PM
If I actually lived around people I would get a Lone Ranger or Zorro mask.

Tell the first Karen that it just says mask mandatory.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: RoadKingLarry on July 27, 2020, 02:25:32 PM
I have a Gadsden flag and a Guy Fawkes mask on order for when I have to go back to work.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ben on July 27, 2020, 02:29:47 PM
A Gadsden flag COVID mask kinda reminds me of this:

https://youtu.be/KMEViYvojtY?t=8

 :laugh:


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: RoadKingLarry on July 27, 2020, 02:33:50 PM
The irony is not lost on me.  =D


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: MillCreek on July 27, 2020, 03:46:14 PM

If they were to enter with a Soviet-style hammer & sickle mast, or one with Che' on it, would you also give them change or leave options?

Why or why not?


The standard corporate is using is 'offensive' material.  In this case, it was the profanity.  If someone came in with a mask with a political statement such as I heart Che, or Mao killed more people than Hitler, we wave them in with a smile.  I sincerely hope this does not turn into a Justice Potter Stewart situation in that "I know it when I see it", leaving us to make subjective judgments on the fly, and usually by some 22 year old medical assistant.  And then I have to come along and clean up the mess.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: zxcvbob on July 27, 2020, 03:50:30 PM
The standard corporate is using is 'offensive' material.  In this case, it was the profanity.  If someone came in with a mask with a political statement such as I heart Che, or Mao killed more people than Hitler, we wave them in with a smile.  I sincerely hope this does not turn into a Justice Potter Stewart situation in that "I know it when I see it", leaving us to make subjective judgments on the fly, and usually by some 22 year old medical assistant.  And then I have to come along and clean up the mess.

That's what I was wondering about.  Wherever the line is drawn, actual profanity seems to cross it to me.  (I'm assuming it actually  said "*expletive deleted*ck", not "F**k", because the latter would be a lot grayer.)


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: MillCreek on July 27, 2020, 05:48:17 PM
No, it was the actual four-letter F word, which the software of this board prevents from being seen.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: French G. on July 27, 2020, 06:37:21 PM
Still not wearing a mask in one of the lowest density pop counties east of the mississippi that has had three cases. Out in the world I do where appropriate. Been out in the company vehicle lately and I use my turn signals and wear the damn mask. Represent my employer, not me so I conform to societal norms. Strangely, we had some employees refuse to wear a mask at a jobsite and they still have a job. I have overtime because I had to go do their work. Yet another jobsite has everyone scanned with an IR camera. Just the things you do if you want a functioning economy.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on July 27, 2020, 07:02:15 PM
"Conform to societal norms" - did you also burn down a Wendy's for racial justice?


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Mike Irwin on July 28, 2020, 03:24:21 AM
The standard corporate is using is 'offensive' material.  In this case, it was the profanity.  If someone came in with a mask with a political statement such as I heart Che, or Mao killed more people than Hitler, we wave them in with a smile.  I sincerely hope this does not turn into a Justice Potter Stewart situation in that "I know it when I see it", leaving us to make subjective judgments on the fly, and usually by some 22 year old medical assistant.  And then I have to come along and clean up the mess.

I'm not trying to pin you down, but I get rather annoyed when people lose their minds over Hitlerism but devolve into paroxysms of love and adulation for the Commies who were, in truth, worse than Hitler by a long shot.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fifth_column on July 28, 2020, 04:54:45 AM
I'm not trying to pin you down, but I get rather annoyed when people lose their minds over Hitlerism but devolve into paroxysms of love and adulation for the Commies who were, in truth, worse than Hitler by a long shot.

Those are the current societal norms . . . . .


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Mike Irwin on July 28, 2020, 06:22:02 AM
Those are the current societal norms . . . . .

And they should be fought, tooth and nail.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fifth_column on July 28, 2020, 06:32:25 AM
And they should be fought, tooth and nail.

Don't think I've ever met a societal norm I didn't want to fight . . . .


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: adively on July 28, 2020, 07:35:09 AM
Just saw a guy riding a donor bike, without a helmet on, but he did have his mask on.   :rofl:


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: charby on July 28, 2020, 02:56:45 PM
And they should be fought, tooth and nail.

and I have yet to see anyone really fight them, lots of bitching on the internet and floods of memes on Facebook, comments on twitchy, but no real warrior type fighting.

 [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn]


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ron on July 28, 2020, 05:56:36 PM
and I have yet to see anyone really fight them, lots of bitching on the internet and floods of memes on Facebook, comments on twitchy, but no real warrior type fighting.

 [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn]

Bread and circuses work all the way up until they don't or there is a collapse.



Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: fistful on July 28, 2020, 06:07:36 PM
and I have yet to see anyone really fight them, lots of bitching on the internet and floods of memes on Facebook, comments on twitchy, but no real warrior type fighting.

 [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn]


I keep coming across articles in conservative media that say we should fight back. I even see some that claim to have "specific" or "concrete" steps to take. But they aren't that specific or concrete. A lot of people that aren't attending a college, or don't have a weekly column, or aren't social media celebrities aren't very well-placed to do or say things people will pay attention to.

Of course, there are school board meetings and city council meetings, but I wonder how many of those are even open to the public right now.
https://www.wisn.com/article/woman-arrested-cited-in-social-distance-standoff/32393163

Oh, I almost forgot about the anti-lockdown protests. It might be nice to see more organizing on the right, but with the other side having full control of the media...


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: French G. on July 28, 2020, 06:30:16 PM
Just saw a guy riding a donor bike, without a helmet on, but he did have his mask on.   :rofl:

I saw grandma in Charlottesville today, 8 year old kid in the frontseat with no seatbelt, but we're worried about covid.


Fight back? Blow up your TV, and go about life as normal as possible.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: MechAg94 on July 29, 2020, 04:53:12 AM
Fight back at the ballot box.  Identify candidates that are not leftists and contribute to their campaigns (even if in other districts/states). 

I think an election loss for Dems in November is the only way this stops.  If Democrats win, they will learn the lesson that supporting violence and mobs is the way to victory.  You will damn well expect more before the next election. 


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Mike Irwin on July 29, 2020, 06:04:15 AM
Well, I finally saw my first tiff over masks at the 7-11 this morning.

Guy, let's call him Karl (the equivalent of a Karen) is giving this woman crap for not wearing a mask.

He's got a paper napkin over his nose and mouth. She's bitching about that... He's saying that it's the same as a paper mask, she's KILLING PEOPLE!!!!!, and he's there to buy an ear loop mask. She tells him to mind his own effing business, pays, and leaves.



Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ron on August 01, 2020, 08:00:38 AM
From everything I've read masks work pretty darn well during pandemics if everyone is wearing them.

The question then becomes is the current "pandemic" really a pandemic that requires such extraordinary measures as masking everyone up?

Once the avalanche and cascade of lies about covid became known it really muddied the water for me on the whole issue.

Living in clown world as I do, masks are required to function normally throughout the day.

It's just annoying that so much of the data is so corrupted that there is no way to make a good risk assessment.

I'm stuck with the precautionary principle when intuitively it appears the primary time of danger has past.   

 


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: dogmush on August 01, 2020, 08:36:42 AM
From everything I've read masks work pretty darn well during pandemics if everyone is wearing them.

The question then becomes is the current "pandemic" really a pandemic that requires such extraordinary measures as masking everyone up?

Once the avalanche and cascade of lies about covid became known it really muddied the water for me on the whole issue.

Living in clown world as I do, masks are required to function normally throughout the day.

It's just annoying that so much of the data is so corrupted that there is no way to make a good risk assessment.

I'm stuck with the precautionary principle when intuitively it appears the primary time of danger has past.   

 

Intuitively, I am not sure on this.  Our (the US) new case rate is rising, and we are entering the season where Flu like illnesses expand, not contract.  With the lack of really reliable data I won't care to guess at the extent of the COVID-19 surge I think we'll see in the coming months, but I think it will be worse than the springs "peak".  There's still enough COVID in the wild (so to speak) I think we will see a lot more.

I have no real hard evidence for this however.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: bedlamite on August 04, 2020, 04:37:20 AM
https://fox8.com/news/coronavirus/video-shows-fight-breaking-out-after-woman-throws-coffee-at-man-not-wearing-mask/


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ben on August 04, 2020, 04:54:57 AM
https://fox8.com/news/coronavirus/video-shows-fight-breaking-out-after-woman-throws-coffee-at-man-not-wearing-mask/

How do you eat and wear a mask? Also, she broke distancing protocol to throw the coffee. Hopefully she's arrested.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ron on August 09, 2020, 04:30:46 AM
Does anyone else notice a big uptick in articles and stories about how masks in public aren't even effective?

I just need to move out to the country, this is just exhausting  :facepalm:

Here's a new emoji for the board  


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: zxcvbob on August 09, 2020, 05:18:26 AM
Does anyone else notice a big uptick in articles and stories about how masks in public aren't even effective?

I just need to move out to the country, this is just exhausting  :facepalm:


No.  I keep seeing articles about how so-and-so didn't wear a mask and now they are dead.  The tone is almost gleeful.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Mike Irwin on August 09, 2020, 05:21:43 AM
Does anyone else notice a big uptick in articles and stories about how masks in public aren't even effective?

I just need to move out to the country, this is just exhausting  :facepalm:

Here's a new emoji for the board  

Yeah, but that's just Donald Trump trying to kill us all.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Mike Irwin on August 09, 2020, 06:08:45 AM
Latest bit of stupidity I saw regarding masks...

Wearing masks causes Legionnaire's Disease!

Uhm... NO.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: RoadKingLarry on August 09, 2020, 06:40:11 AM
Latest bit of stupidity I saw regarding masks...

Wearing masks causes Legionnaire's Disease!

Uhm... NO.

The point that I saw was that wearing the same dirty masks all day, for multiple days has been causing respiratory problems including Legionnaires disease but I'l go along with you on BS-ing the legionnaires disease part and still agree that the average Joe isn't trained and knowledgeable enough about proper PPE hygiene not to severely increase their risk of illness from dirty gear.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Ben on August 09, 2020, 06:58:10 AM
This is an interesting study from Duke University on masks.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/08/us/duke-university-face-mask-test-trnd/index.html

I can see the neck gaiter problem. I wear neck gaiters in the Winter sometimes. I got one of these thin ones people are wearing now thinking it would serve a dual purpose as a COVID mask and also dust mask when I'm on the tractor. It sucked at the latter*, so I can see them also being ineffective as a virus mask.


*Well, it kinda helped, but I could still smell dust, and if you blow your nose afterwards and the kleenex is the color of dirt, it's probably not catching much, and dust particles are bigger than virus particles.


Title: Re: Mandatory masks?
Post by: Andiron on August 09, 2020, 08:30:27 AM
Checkmate,  pointless County mandate.

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1889/9827/products/59050_4000x.progressive.jpg?v=1590669409)


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