Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: MillCreek on June 22, 2020, 05:50:59 PM
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https://www.startribune.com/at-urging-of-police-hennepin-emts-subdued-dozens-with-powerful-sedative/485607381/
Ketamine does have a role for very combative or excited delirium patients, but some of these cases sure sound more like unnecessary chemical restraints done at the behest of the police to me. If this was happening in the hospital, an incident report and case review would be done for each ketamine use for this reason.
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K-hole for e'rybody! Have been told the hallucinations can be mentally traumatic, can anyone confirm/deny?
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http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=57778.0
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K-hole for e'rybody! Have been told the hallucinations can be mentally traumatic, can anyone confirm/deny?
John Lilly, the dolphin researcher, did ketamine. IRRC. (Try and find his autobiography sometimes. He was a nut.)
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https://www.startribune.com/at-urging-of-police-hennepin-emts-subdued-dozens-with-powerful-sedative/485607381/
Ketamine does have a role for very combative or excited delirium patients, but some of these cases sure sound more like unnecessary chemical restraints done at the behest of the police to me. If this was happening in the hospital, an incident report and case review would be done for each ketamine use for this reason.
Do we know if they are still doing it, or did they stop in 2018?
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We used to use it to put kids in the K-hole if we had to manipulate broken bones or other very painful procedures. With just a whiff of an opioid and a little ketamine you would not only sedate them but it would give some pretty significant pain relief (analgesic effect of the two combined). Of course this was in an ER with monitors, staff and lots of support. I find it hard to believe that Minneapolis EMS has been using it in the field since 2008. I don't know who thought that one up but it sounds like a protocol that got started and never reviewed or removed. To me the variables would be too great in the field and it would not be something I would consider doing.
bob
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K-hole for e'rybody! Have been told the hallucinations can be mentally traumatic, can anyone confirm/deny?
I was given "something" prior to a medical procedure when I was a child. It made me hallucinate; I've always wondered if it was ketamine.
It made me see this woman in our kitchen, no joke:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51sHdNQY1CL._AC_.jpg)
I wasn't particularly traumatized though. Maybe I should have been? ???
It seemed kind of funny at the time.
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Characteristic patterns of EEG oscillations in sheep (Ovis aries) induced by ketamine may explain the psychotropic effects seen in humans (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-66023-8)
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I was given "something" prior to a medical procedure when I was a child. It made me hallucinate; I've always wondered if it was ketamine.
It made me see this woman in our kitchen, no joke:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51sHdNQY1CL._AC_.jpg)
I wasn't particularly traumatized though. Maybe I should have been? ???
It seemed kind of funny at the time.
Did you try to take her to the train station?
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So after a quick look at the article, maybe Minneapolis should dump their police department. Fire everyone, dissolve the local union, delete and shred all the procedures. Then find some capable people to start a new department from scratch. No rehires of anyone from the top down.
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Well, that kind of sounds like the same kind of slash-and-burn thinking that the antifas and violent protesters are using. Satisfying in a vengeful way, but counterproductiive.
"Then find some capable people to start a new department from scratch."
Who do you think would be the first applicants? I'll tell you who: the very antifas and "peaceful" protesters who started all this stuff and want to "progress" in a "new direction."
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elijah_McClain
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Well, that kind of sounds like the same kind of slash-and-burn thinking that the antifas and violent protesters are using. Satisfying in a vengeful way, but counterproductiive.
"Then find some capable people to start a new department from scratch."
Who do you think would be the first applicants? I'll tell you who: the very antifas and "peaceful" protesters who started all this stuff and want to "progress" in a "new direction."
How many of those guys would pass the background check, or make it through the academy?
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So after a quick look at the article, maybe Minneapolis should dump their police department. Fire everyone, dissolve the local union, delete and shred all the procedures. Then find some capable people to start a new department from scratch. No rehires of anyone from the top down.
That would require those in control to not be corrupt. The parasites will never leave a living host.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elijah_McClain
PDs must get the body cams from some cheezy Chinatronic Ebay vendor. Not very reliable.</sarc>
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How many of those guys would pass the background check, or make it through the academy?
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Background checks and training are racist dog-whistles you disgusting bigot.
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How many of those guys would pass the background check, or make it through the academy?
I'm sure they'd set up their own academy. I picture it looking a lot like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGxSM5y7Pfs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGxSM5y7Pfs)
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That would require those in control to not be corrupt. The parasites will never leave a living host.
Yeah, I doubt it would work out very well, especially with the current mayor.
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Thinking about it, the fact that there are no heavily scrutinized licensing procedures to practice "law enforcement" is pretty crazy. Being a cop is treated more like a summer job than a position of huge responsibility and authority.
And they have a say in forcefully administering drugs to people ;/
Low-level standards and entry requirements for candidates + high level of on-job authority and power + near-zero oversight and accountability = apparently the best idea evaaaar!!! according to the justice system :facepalm:
So yeah, a full teardown and reconstruction is necessary.
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Thinking about it, the fact that there are no heavily scrutinized licensing procedures to practice "law enforcement" is pretty crazy. Being a cop is treated more like a summer job than a position of huge responsibility and authority.
Fascinating. Tell me more about your understanding of LEO training and continuing education.
And they have a say in forcefully administering drugs to people ;/
As far as I can tell they can ask, but it is up to the medic/doc to make the determination of necessity.
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Well, explain to me what licensing is required to do law enforcement.
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Well, explain to me what licensing is required to do law enforcement.
Isn't certification required? There are police academies, though I have to believe many small departments can't afford them.
Note: I'm not against better police training and education -- in fact it's probably the one thing that might really help reduce bad police behaviour aside from better vetting of police employees.
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Fascinating. Tell me more about your understanding of LEO training and continuing education.
As far as I can tell they can ask, but it is up to the medic/doc to make the determination of necessity.
And if this hadn't been widely publicized...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_University_of_Utah_Hospital_incident (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_University_of_Utah_Hospital_incident)
The cop that did this is still working in "law enforcement"
On October 11, 2019, former police detective Jeff Payne filed a suit against the Salt Lake City Police Department, seeking more than $300,000 in damages and claiming that, in 2017, though following the orders of his commanding officer and complying with department policies, he was "wrongfully terminated."[39] Payne had been hired in August 2019 by the Weber County Sheriff's Office
Sure it all worked out in the courts in the end but it damn well should never have happened in the first place
We need a higher level of accountability for police misdeeds than we have now.
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Isn't certification required? There are police academies, though I have to believe many small departments can't afford them.
Note: I'm not against better police training and education -- in fact it's probably the one thing that might really help reduce bad police behaviour aside from better vetting of police employees.
A quick Google would make it seem like each state has it's own accreditation exam and decides what is on it. Agencies (and sometimes states) run training camps that average between 12 and 14 weeks, 40 hrs a week, and then the cadets take the test. Smaller agencies can piggyback on other agency's academies.
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Well, explain to me what licensing is required to do law enforcement.
There is a variety of licensing and certification that applies to law enforcement. Different roles, states, and localities have different requirements and probably use different names, but there is typically academy certification, peace officer basic training certification, regularly renewed formal certification to operate various pieces of equipment (EVO for operating the vehicles, PBT, qualification and tactics for firearms/less lethal, etc) or perform certain duties (K9, training, DRE, SWAT, etc) to say nothing of regular training in defensive tactics, law changes, etc.
Just asked a friend what his yearly training looked like. His minimum annual formal training requirement is over 200 hours. In 2018 he logged well in excess of 300 hours, but in reality had much more than that because he can only count half of his K9 training for pay. He's a bit of an outlier because K9 has more training time than your average cop, but it's not what you claim.
Not saying there is not room for improvement, but pretending that it is - as you say - "more like a summer job" is either ignorant or intentional prevarication.
We need a higher level of accountability for police misdeeds than we have now.
Police need to be held to an extremely high standard, and when they screw up severely (as in that Utah incident) they need to be dealt with severely. When that doesn't happen it damages public trust. I see the public sector unions and the protections they offer as a significant portion of that problem.
The flip side is that not all complaints against police are legitimate and police need to be protected both from false accusations and political grandstanding. When that doesn't happen, it forces the best, most capable officers out.
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Fascinating. Tell me more about your understanding of LEO training and continuing education.
As far as I can tell they can ask, but it is up to the medic/doc to make the determination of necessity.
Can't be too superlative considering they explicitly don't hire smart people.
http://www.aele.org/apa/jordan-newlondon.html (http://www.aele.org/apa/jordan-newlondon.html)
Why in hell would people want police of only average intelligence? Hmm.
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Can't be too superlative considering they explicitly don't hire smart people.
Given your extensive experience in police hiring, would you say that the referenced case is indicative of a norm in police hiring standards?
Considering your time spent involved in both the police hiring and discipline processes, have you noticed a significant correlation between increased intelligence and improved ethical behavior?
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Given your extensive experience in police hiring, would you say that the referenced case is indicative of a norm in police hiring standards?
Considering your time spent involved in both the police hiring and discipline processes, have you noticed a significant correlation between increased intelligence and improved ethical behavior?
You can do this all day, can't you? :laugh:
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You can do this all day, can't you? :laugh:
With your experience, what makes you think that I can? :angel:
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https://ricochet.com/757578/asking-the-right-questions-what-are-police-officers-for/
For some time I’ve been pondering whether Americans generally, and conservatives in particular, are asking the right questions about life in the 21st century. In this series I’ll be looking at different policies and areas of life and asking -are we really thinking about these issues the right way? Today’s installment is about what we need the police for and how that should influence the way we think about police.
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Given your extensive experience in police hiring, would you say that the referenced case is indicative of a norm in police hiring standards?
Considering your time spent involved in both the police hiring and discipline processes, have you noticed a significant correlation between increased intelligence and improved ethical behavior?
I don't have to say anything when there is case law on the matter.
Know what the DoD does with people who score too smart on the asvab? They hire them.
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I don't have to say anything when there is case law on the matter.
Dunning-Kruger, dude.
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Dunning-Kruger, dude.
:rofl:
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Apparently it's not JUST Minneapolis PD. I wonder how many police departments around the country routinely [get an EMT to] drug people against their will?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/26/elijah-mcclain-ketamine-may-have-played-role-death-experts-say/3262785001/
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Apparently it's not JUST Minneapolis PD. I wonder how many police departments around the country routinely [get an EMT to] drug people against their will?
This seems pretty risky for the EMT . . . were I an EMT, I'd be very worried that after recovery either the person I involuntarily drugged (or his next of kin) would come to settle a score with me.
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Edited: Redundant link to what kgbsquirrel posted.
So police officers may get a heap of technical training on the job depending on what agency hired them. What I am not seeing is a license to operate, or filtering through a licensing process in the same way that it is applied to other professions where irresponsibility or negligence can cause significant damage to others. So long as he is not convicted of criminal charges an individual can get hired, fired and hired again by a neighboring agency on the same day. There is no independent review board that offers oversight or follow up on minimum standards of conduct or training that are required to work or continue working in that field. Generally speaking, a cop can't "lose his license" the same way a doctor can for misconduct, yet both can bring about your death.
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This seems pretty risky for the EMT . . . were I an EMT, I'd be very worried that after recovery either the person I involuntarily drugged (or his next of kin) would come to settle a score with me.
Legally, I certainly would go after them as best I could.
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Can't be too superlative considering they explicitly don't hire smart people.
http://www.aele.org/apa/jordan-newlondon.html (http://www.aele.org/apa/jordan-newlondon.html)
Why in hell would people want police of only average intelligence? Hmm.
Cool!
Brought to you by the same city that created Kelo. (The landmark case that said government can use eminent domain to steal your property and turn it over to a private developer that you would never, EVER sell to voluntarily.)
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What I am not seeing is a license to operate, or filtering through a licensing process in the same way that it is applied to other professions where irresponsibility or negligence can cause significant damage to others. So long as he is not convicted of criminal charges an individual can get hired, fired and hired again by a neighboring agency on the same day.
I can't say that you are wrong in all jurisdictions, but I can say with complete confidence that you are utterly wrong with how that would go down in my town.
There is no independent review board that offers oversight or follow up on minimum standards of conduct or training that are required to work or continue working in that field. Generally speaking, a cop can't "lose his license" the same way a doctor can for misconduct, yet both can bring about your death.
First off, while it is outside of my realm of direct experience, I'm not so sure that doctors are such an awesome regulatory example to be emulated. Medical error kills a quarter million Americans a year and I'm relatively confident we aren't blackballing every single doctor who screws up and kills a patient. You are absolutely up in arms about cops who kill 1/250th of that number in a year - and most of them righteously. Very, very few docs can claim self-defense for their medical error kills. Maybe Millcreek can tell us a little bit about his experience with bad docs and medical error - I could be off base.
Regardless, can I tell you a little bit about how the police hiring practice actually works? I'm going to break this down specifically for the town I live in, since that is the only place I have direct, recent experience. I'm sure some departments are outliers in the process, but I can't imagine the one I happen to know about is drastically abnormal.
1. The Town Council approves the budget for hiring and the number of positions to fill.
2. The Chief advertises the positions.
3. Online pre-application
4. Physical tests (basic strength and agility)
5. Oral interview panel
6. Formal written application
7. Comprehensive background investigation conducted by detectives (criminal background check, interviews with previous employers, credit check, reference checks, etc).
8. Polygraph/Voice Stress Analysis interview
9. At several points along the way, candidates' records are brought to a Police Merit Commission on which I have served for the past six or seven months. This is a non-Law Enforcement oversight board who make all hiring, firing, and promotion determinations, as well as handling any serious discipline issues. The Chief asks the Commission to remove candidates who have failed at any step of the process. That could be based on physical performance, criminal history/admitted criminal behavior, financial red flags, or negative information provided by previous employers (including previous departments, if applicable).
10. For the given number of positions currently available, the Chief picks specific candidates and asks that they be certified by the Merit Commission. The Commission gets the whole file to review for each of the selected applicants. We're talking 3" binders full of documentation. If the Commission likes a candidate then they approve a conditional offer of employment and the applicant moves on to the next steps.
11. Medical evaluation
12. Psychiatric evaluation
13. Assuming they pass all the previous steps and do not yet have state certification they must attend the police academy Basic Peace Officer program, which is almost four months long.
14. 17 week Field Training program during which they operate under the direct instruction and observation of Field Training Officers.
If you already have a state LE certification you still have to undergo every step except the academy.
No, bad cops aren't going to be coming in from a neighboring agency and getting hired the same day. Or any day, so long as I'm on the commission. While I do get the appeal of a body that could yank credentialing from bad cops permanently and universally, I'm not convinced that it would necessarily be better or more effective to have a distant state or federal licensing board giving the thumbs up or thumbs down on officers. I'm not sure a Merit Board or Merit Commission satisfies your personal requirements for an "independent review board", but I feel confident in our department's process and the oversight that I'm a part of. We're preparing to start another hiring process soon. If you're interested I can give periodic notes on the process.
Also, contrary to kgbsquirrel's confidently ignorant assumptions, we do not have a ceiling on intelligence for applicants. Based on the criteria provided by an employment consulting firm we do drop a significant percentage of the the least qualified of applicants even if they achieve nominally passing scores, but there is no top end. Just like the DoD does, if they score too smart on our tests ... we hire them.
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Maybe it’s different in the far left big cities where the police departments are pressed to fill positions especially with affirmative action/diversity hires but what Cordex says is what most departments around here do as far as screening and investigating.
My sister and her husband had to go through extensive screening for their initial departments and the one they are both at now. They even investigated family members and friends I had to talk to a background investigator for about a half hour about my sister and they did a background check on me.
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Some police departments have additional dis-qualifiers in hiring police officers:
https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836 (https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836)
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elijah_McClain
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/colorado-police-officers-paramedics-charged-2019-death-unarmed-black-man-2021-09-01/?utm_source=ground.news&utm_medium=referral
Three Colorado police officers and two paramedics have been criminally charged in the death of Elijah McClain, a Black man who died in 2019 after he was subdued and injected with a sedative, the state attorney general said on Wednesday.
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^^^Well, I am going to be very interested in the outcome of the trial for the paramedics, and I wonder if Colorado did a licensure investigation on them after this event.
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FWIW, some local Caring and Progressive people no longer like body cameras - because they can be used as evidence that Sumdood was NOT actually standing peacefully upon a corner while minding his own business.
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FWIW, some local Caring and Progressive people no longer like body cameras - because they can be used as evidence that Sumdood was NOT actually standing peacefully upon a corner while minding his own business.
I dunno. The bodycams seem to fail to work often enough.
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I dunno. The bodycams seem to conveniently fail to work often enough.
FTFY
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Background checks and training are racist dog-whistles you disgusting bigot.
Thank you. I was about to generate the same kind of remark.
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https://www.reuters.com/world/us/colorado-police-officers-paramedics-charged-2019-death-unarmed-black-man-2021-09-01/?utm_source=ground.news&utm_medium=referral
Ok, and what about the idiot who called the cops in the first place?
Isn't what they did equivalent to Swatting somebody?