Author Topic: How would George Washington do today?  (Read 8465 times)

CAnnoneer

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How would George Washington do today?
« on: December 09, 2007, 08:36:25 PM »
More recently, it occurred to me how far candidates for POTUS have devolved away from George Washington, and the values he represents. Then I asked myself if indeed it is only the candidates' and the parties' fault. Hence, the relevant question becomes how many voters these days would actually vote for Gen. Washington if he got reborn and ran for president. Methinks he wouldn't even win a primary. What do YOU think?

Finch

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Re: How would George Washington do today?
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2007, 09:56:32 PM »
"It is our true policy to steer clear of entangling alliances with any portion of the foreign world."

"My first wish is to see this plague of mankind, war, banished from the earth."

"Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all."

"The Constitution is the guide which I never will abandon."

"The constitution vests the power of declaring war in Congress; therefore no offensive expedition of importance can be undertaken until after they shall have deliberated upon the subject and authorized such a measure. "

- George Washington

So given that, I think a lot of people on this board would considered him a "Loon" "Moonbat" "Certifiably insane" and various other adjectives to attack and discredit, much like they do a current candidate running for president who hold similar principals. Eight years ago I would have said that he wouldn't have a chance in hell, but with the proliferation of the internet and it's position as an equalizer, I think that he would have a fighting one. Of course the MSM would do everything in their power to discredit and ignore him and people who support unnecessary unjust wars would do everything to label him an isolationist. And, because I believe George Washington would not subscribe to a pea-brained notion like "they hate us for our freedoms" he would also be considered a coward.
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MechAg94

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Re: How would George Washington do today?
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2007, 07:40:35 AM »
Quote
"The constitution vests the power of declaring war in Congress; therefore no offensive expedition of importance can be undertaken until after they shall have deliberated upon the subject and authorized such a measure. "
How is that different from what Congress did on the Iraq issue?  They authorized it.  It just didn't say DofW on the letter head. 
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K Frame

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Re: How would George Washington do today?
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2007, 08:04:00 AM »
""The Constitution is the guide which I never will abandon."

And yet, he supported the passage of the Alien and Sedition laws...
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SteveS

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Re: How would George Washington do today?
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2007, 08:57:39 AM »
""The Constitution is the guide which I never will abandon."

And yet, he supported the passage of the Alien and Sedition laws...

He did?  Congress passed those during the Adams administration.

Considering that Washington was not in favor of having political parties, he would have to run as an 'independent', so he probably wouldn't do that well with our two party monopoly.
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MechAg94

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Re: How would George Washington do today?
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2007, 09:06:04 AM »
The two parties then weren't quite the same though.
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MechAg94

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Re: How would George Washington do today?
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2007, 09:08:57 AM »
I think if he were around today, he would be vilified in the media to the point that a large number of people would be convinced that he was evil incarnate.  His military service would be questioned.  He would be accused of torturing prisoners.  He would be accused of murdering his own men for not supplying them well enough at Valley Forge.  He would be blasted for sending federal troops to put down a tax protest.  Etc, etc, etc...
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Paddy

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Re: How would George Washington do today?
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2007, 09:22:01 AM »
The only thing you're missing to make the comparison complete is that George Washington was a drunk whose father's connections spared him from combat duty.

Oh, wait, that didn't happen.

K Frame

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Re: How would George Washington do today?
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2007, 01:22:16 PM »
"He did?  Congress passed those during the Adams administration."

Yes they did, and yes he did.

Even though he was the ex-president when the acts were passed into law in 1798, he could have crushed them by coming out against them.


It wasn't Washington's duty to supply his troops with provisions. It was Congress' duty to do so.

Congress failed miserably.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: How would George Washington do today?
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2007, 01:55:07 PM »
The comparison just can't be done.  Washington owned slaves, for pity's sake.  Forget about the Alien and Sedition Acts, just think about the measures he probably supported with regard to Aboriginal Americans.   shocked  Didn't they give them Bibles, back then?  And that's just the nice half of what they did. 
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De Selby

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Re: How would George Washington do today?
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2007, 01:58:40 PM »
Here's an interesting letter I once found by the original GW.  Apparently proto-communism was already a serious problem in colonial America.  Some of the veterans of the revolutionary war seem to have been swept up in this idea that they had a share in the property of the new country, since they were the ones who fought to free it from Britain:  http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/mgw:@field(DOCID+@lit(gw290030))

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How melancholy is the reflection, that in so short a space, we should have made such large strides towards fulfilling the prediction of our transatlantic foe! "leave them to themselves, and their government will soon dissolve." Will not the wise and good strive hard to avert this evil? Or will their supineness suffer ignorance, and the arts of self-interested designing disaffected and desperate characters, to involve this rising empire in wretchedness and contempt? What stronger evidence can be given of the want of energy in our governments than these disorders? If there exists not a power to check them, what security has a man for life, liberty, or property? To you, I am sure I need not add aught on this subject, the consequences of a lax, or inefficient government, are too obvious to be dwelt on. Thirteen Sovereignties pulling against each other, and all tugging at the foederal head will soon bring ruin on the whole; whereas a liberal, and energetic Constitution, well guarded and closely watched, to prevent incroachments, might restore us to that degree of respectability and consequence, to which we had a fair claim, and the brightest prospect of attaining. With sentiments of the sincerest esteem etc

Interesting that he describes the USA as a "rising empire".
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Perd Hapley

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Re: How would George Washington do today?
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2007, 04:54:03 PM »
Quote
Some of the veterans of the revolutionary war seem to have been swept up in this idea that they had a share in the property of the new country, since they were the ones who fought to free it from Britain:


How very nineties of you.  "They" (poor or less-affluent soldiers) were not the only ones to fight for the Revolutionary cause.  A cause which, significantly, was well understood to include property rights, not "proto-communism."  Or leveling, in the terminology of the day. 
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De Selby

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Re: How would George Washington do today?
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2007, 04:59:00 PM »
Quote
Some of the veterans of the revolutionary war seem to have been swept up in this idea that they had a share in the property of the new country, since they were the ones who fought to free it from Britain:


How very nineties of you.  "They" (poor or less-affluent soldiers) were not the only ones to fight for the Revolutionary cause.  A cause which, significantly, was well understood to include property rights, not "proto-communism."  Or leveling, in the terminology of the day. 

Well, as with any community effort, they all would've joined for different purposes.  So yes, while some understood very well that property rights of the previous owners (including british) might be preserved, if you look at the estimates Washington relates for the number of adherents to this alternative view, there was clearly a substantial part of the population that didn't see things the same way.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Perd Hapley

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Re: How would George Washington do today?
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2007, 05:01:02 PM »
Previous owners?  What are you talking about? 
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De Selby

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Re: How would George Washington do today?
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2007, 05:11:58 PM »
Previous owners?  What are you talking about? 

Owners of property held under the sovereignty of the Crown versus under the new state/federal government post-revolution.  That was unclear-sorry.  Some sought to preserve property rights that had been granted pursuant to the Crown; others didn't recognize the continuity of title with the change of government. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Len Budney

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Re: How would George Washington do today?
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2007, 06:36:53 PM »
Even though he was the ex-president when the acts were passed into law in 1798, he could have crushed them by coming out against them.

Argument from silence is always dangerous. Washington limited himself to two terms precisely because he didn't want to be a ruler for life. It would be contrary to his principles to attempt to direct government from retirement, and it would have been ungentlemanly to condemn his successors publicly. You'll have to do much better than that to prove that Washington approved of the Alien and Sedition acts.

That said, Washington was hardly perfect. The "Whiskey Rebellion" wasn't exactly a shining moment.

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Len Budney

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Re: How would George Washington do today?
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2007, 06:40:18 PM »
The comparison just can't be done.  Washington owned slaves, for pity's sake...

He freed them in his will. More significantly, he expressed in correspondence that his own slave ownership had become "repugnant to me," and attempted to come up with wild schemes to free his own slaves, consistently with the laws and customs of the day. His general idea was to convert them into tenant farmers, and to justify it without making waves by coming up with a business model whereby he made out better as a landlord than he would have as a slave-owner.

Hardly a fanatical abolitionist, but pretty forward-thinking for his day.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: How would George Washington do today?
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2007, 07:03:00 PM »
Hardly a fanatical abolitionist, but pretty forward-thinking for his day. 

FOR HIS DAY.  I'm not saying I don't admire the man in many, many respects.  But the attempt to transplant people across epochs of time is just the most futile speculation.  There are a million things Washington said or did that would kill him today.  But if he were raised in today's milieu, he would not be the same man at all. 
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K Frame

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Re: How would George Washington do today?
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2007, 08:02:40 PM »
I'm still trying to find the references, but Washington expressed at least moderate support for the Alien and Sedition Acts to John Adams, or perhaps someone else in Adams cabinet (most of whom who had served Washington) in at least one letter.

It might have been noted in David McCullough's book on Adams, and mine has gone missing.
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SteveS

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Re: How would George Washington do today?
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2007, 03:26:23 PM »
I'm still trying to find the references, but Washington expressed at least moderate support for the Alien and Sedition Acts to John Adams, or perhaps someone else in Adams cabinet (most of whom who had served Washington) in at least one letter.

It might have been noted in David McCullough's book on Adams, and mine has gone missing.

I'd be interested.  I wasn't trying to be a smart ass, I had just never heard that he had supported the A & S Acts. 
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Len Budney

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Re: How would George Washington do today?
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2007, 04:02:21 PM »
I'm still trying to find the references...
I had a quick look, but came up empty. Might've used too broad a search: stuff like "george washington" and "alien and sedition".
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Ned Hamford

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Re: How would George Washington do today?
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2007, 10:43:02 PM »
George Washington and the Alien and Sedition Acts
Marshall Smelser
The American Historical Review, Vol. 59, No. 2 (Jan., 1954), pp. 322-334

If anyone has handy database access
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LAK

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Re: How would George Washington do today?
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2007, 05:07:26 AM »
He'd be branded a kook, and the ruling oligarchy would pull every string and trick to see that he would not be elected.

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Washington owned slaves, for pity's sake...
The phrase, "so what" comes to mind here.

So did half the world. A good portion of it still does.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: How would George Washington do today?
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2007, 01:00:28 PM »


Quote
Washington owned slaves, for pity's sake...
The phrase, "so what" comes to mind here.

So did half the world. A good portion of it still does. 


The point is that Washington lived in a much different America.  Just read the rest of the thread.   rolleyes
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LAK

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Re: How would George Washington do today?
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2007, 02:14:10 AM »
Actually, it is we who live in a much different America. There are not many people that are not happy that the slavery prevelent at the time of Washington in America is gone, but the reason that it is a different America is that it has been changed by people with an agenda to do so.