Author Topic: Victim: Gang-Rape Cover-Up by U.S., Halliburton/KBR  (Read 25175 times)

RevDisk

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Re: Sure am glad my taxes are funding KBR
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2007, 02:00:29 PM »
Hell, 385 million dollars of our tax money went to KBR for a contract from the Department of Homeland Security to provide centers for "temporary detention and processing capabilities."

But you got nothing to worry about...

I had a hand in killing a couple KBR communication contracts.  I'm more proud of that than most of my medals.  I specifically knew of incidents of KBR overcharging the US Army for fuel and selling fuel to an enemy nation.  I was not alone in this, and a number of folks also filed.  I did report it to the IG as being fraud, waste and abuse.  IG was a good guy, and took his job seriously.  He was relieved and ordered back stateside.  The rest of us shut up REAL quick after that.  They also ran a food scam.  Charging the US Army for top quality food, then buying food that was unsafe for human consumption.  Lot of us got food poisoning.  Myself included.  You know it's bad when soldiers want MRE's rather than a hot meal. 

The sole regret I had was I had a SAW, locked and loaded, and ready to cut down a mess of KBR brass sitting across the table.  And I didn't do anything.  Sigh.  I think I'll be regretting that decision for a while.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

De Selby

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Re: Victim: Gang-Rape Cover-Up by U.S., Halliburton/KBR
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2007, 03:06:53 PM »
Saudi Arabia and Dubai do not have Islamic law systems-they barely have legal systems at all.  There is no method or referring to Islamic jurisprudence in these cases; there is simply what some judge says, and if you disagree, he might have you killed for trying to embarrass him or challenging his authority.  The problem in these places is a complete lack of any law, not "islamic law".

The consensus view, from what I can gather, on this subject in Islamic law is that once a credible account is made out by the accuser, the burden shifts to the defendant to disprove the accuser's complaint.  If the defendant cannot disprove the complaint, then he is subject to one of two penalties:

a lashing if he used deceit or mental pressure to complete the crime, or

death if the used a weapon or the threat of death to complete the crime, and there is physical evidence of some sort that cannot be denied.

The accusation that there is something like a basis in Islamic law for punishing the victim is complete garbage.  There is no such rule, and any Muslim you ask about this will find it offensive in the extreme to suggest that he's religiously required to treat rapes so lightly.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Manedwolf

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Re: Victim: Gang-Rape Cover-Up by U.S., Halliburton/KBR
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2007, 05:26:00 PM »
Shootinstudent, do you post anything here besides CAIR apologism for inexcusably barbaric behavior? Seriously. It's either that, or trying to equate Christians as "just as bad"..."bbbbbut Christians!"

"Edited for inexcusable rudeness"


De Selby

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Re: Victim: Gang-Rape Cover-Up by U.S., Halliburton/KBR
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2007, 05:41:41 PM »
Shootinstudent, do you post anything here besides CAIR apologism for inexcusably barbaric behavior? Seriously. It's either that, or trying to equate Christians as "just as bad"..."bbbbbut Christians!"



Who is excusing the behavior? 

Please note that in this case which has nothing to do with Muslims, it was you who brought up the case of Saudi Arabia's treatment of rape victims.  Were you doing that to "excuse the barbaric act" at KBR, or were you playing "wahhh wahh, Muslims are just as bad as Americans"?  Would it be right to accuse you of that for bringing Muslims into a thread that has nothing to do with them?

It looks like this might be a case of...projection? Is that what it's called when you accuse someone else of doing precisely what you just did?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Len Budney

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Re: Victim: Gang-Rape Cover-Up by U.S., Halliburton/KBR
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2007, 05:57:29 PM »
"Removed rudeness..."

That's certainly uncalled for. He didn't endorse or justify any of the hideous things described in this thread. He simply suggested that some "Muslim" nations, like Dubai, are examples of lawlessness rather than Islamic law. I'm in no position to judge, and am certainly not well disposed toward "Islamic law," but can at least see his point.

--Len.
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Len Budney

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Re: Sure am glad my taxes are funding KBR
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2007, 06:01:22 PM »
I didn't know KBR was my overlord.   

CAnnoneer broadened the topic to "whole corporations or gov organizations." That's certainly broad enough to include our overlords in the District of Columbia. I wasn't referring specifically to KBR.

However, if history is prologue, we can expect to see Blackwater and other mercenaries deployed inside the CONUS before too much longer. Er, whoops--that already happened. But anyway, we can expect to see more of that. Mercenaries add an important layer of deniability.

--Len.
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Bigjake

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Re: Sure am glad my taxes are funding KBR
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2007, 06:13:33 PM »
Quote

Yeah, if we turn on our overlords because some of them kill, steal and rape, we'll soon have no overlords at all. We can't have that now can we?

--Len.

There will come a day when we need useful idiots that see conspiracy everywhere to fight against the man, and this forum's compliment will have been sadly depleted.

Yeah, if this is true, the people involved need to be tied to a post and shot, but if it's not,  your collective credibility is just further sacked because the only thing libertarians seem good for (on this forum and the gun show I went to this past weekend) is pointing fingers at the slightest hint of impropriety and shrieking SEE!! WE TOLD YOU BIG FACELESS EVILCORP RUNS THE PLANET!!

The saddest part is, is that I agree with the vast majority of Libertarian ideals, but every time I encounter one, they make me equate Ron Paul to some freaky cult leader.

Len Budney

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Re: Sure am glad my taxes are funding KBR
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2007, 06:16:55 PM »
shrieking SEE!! WE TOLD YOU BIG FACELESS EVILCORP RUNS THE PLANET!!

You'll have to point out where I said any such thing. Don't exhaust yourself looking. (Hint: never.)

--Len.
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Bigjake

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Re: Sure am glad my taxes are funding KBR
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2007, 06:24:00 PM »
forgive me for paraphrasing. didn't mean to put words in your mouth.

Len Budney

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Re: Sure am glad my taxes are funding KBR
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2007, 06:28:22 PM »
forgive me for paraphrasing. didn't mean to put words in your mouth.

No problem. But I really mean I never said anything like that. I don't believe in conspiracies. At its core, I was talking about the assumption that government has the right to dictate to us, and that police are acting morally in enforcing those dictates. To the extent we believe that, we believe that the people in DC are our rightful overlords.

--Len.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Victim: Gang-Rape Cover-Up by U.S., Halliburton/KBR
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2007, 07:07:02 PM »
The comparisons between Islam and Christianity are pretty dicey, anyhow.  They are very different religions, with very different teachings and very different histories of reaction with very different cultures.  Add to that the number of nominal followers and nominally Christian or Muslim organizations or nations. 

That said, I sympathize with you shootinstudent.  There are plenty of pseudo-Christian whats-its out there, making my religion look bad, just as you claim about your own. 
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Sure am glad my taxes are funding KBR
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2007, 10:39:53 PM »
Quote
However, if history is prologue, we can expect to see Blackwater and other mercenaries deployed inside the CONUS before too much longer. Er, whoops--that already happened.


Would you care to cite any circumstances where Blackwater exceeded their contractual obligations without ramifications during Katrina?

"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

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Finch

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Re: Sure am glad my taxes are funding KBR
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2007, 11:48:41 PM »
Would you care to cite any circumstances where Blackwater exceeded their constitutional obligations without ramifications during Katrina?

Fixed.
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MechAg94

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Re: Sure am glad my taxes are funding KBR
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2007, 04:35:22 AM »
Hell, 385 million dollars of our tax money went to KBR for a contract from the Department of Homeland Security to provide centers for "temporary detention and processing capabilities."

But you got nothing to worry about...

I had a hand in killing a couple KBR communication contracts.  I'm more proud of that than most of my medals.  I specifically knew of incidents of KBR overcharging the US Army for fuel and selling fuel to an enemy nation.  I was not alone in this, and a number of folks also filed.  I did report it to the IG as being fraud, waste and abuse.  IG was a good guy, and took his job seriously.  He was relieved and ordered back stateside.  The rest of us shut up REAL quick after that.  They also ran a food scam.  Charging the US Army for top quality food, then buying food that was unsafe for human consumption.  Lot of us got food poisoning.  Myself included.  You know it's bad when soldiers want MRE's rather than a hot meal. 

The sole regret I had was I had a SAW, locked and loaded, and ready to cut down a mess of KBR brass sitting across the table.  And I didn't do anything.  Sigh.  I think I'll be regretting that decision for a while.
Isn't that the point where you are supposed to write your Congressman?  Smiley
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MechAg94

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Re: Victim: Gang-Rape Cover-Up by U.S., Halliburton/KBR
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2007, 06:13:04 AM »
SS, I at least wasn't referring to Islamic law.  I was just commenting on Saudi law only and what I have heard from people who have worked over there.  I worked with a Hindi guy who grew up in Dubai as well, but he didn't have any stories to speak of.  He just said he had no desire to go back.  Saudi law, from what I have heard, is more about aristocratic privilege from stuff I have heard.

About the only link to Islam in the stuff I heard was that you can get rewarded pretty nicely for converting to Islam while over there.  Just don't try to convert back to Christianity.  That and don't try to even get close to a women's beach.  Smiley

So many Islamic nations put their religion into the law that I can understand the difficulty of people trying to separate the two.
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gunsmith

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Re: Sure am glad my taxes are funding KBR
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2007, 09:35:19 AM »
I read about that case yesterday, it made drudge.
Terrible, I believe her 100% and think all involved in keeping that
women imprisoned/raping her or covering it up need to be shot.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Sure am glad my taxes are funding KBR
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2007, 09:43:24 AM »
I read about that case yesterday, it made drudge.
Terrible, I believe her 100% and think all involved in keeping that
women imprisoned/raping her or covering it up need to be shot.

Because now you're judge, jury, and executioner.  There is a thing called due process, innocent until proven guilty, blah blah blah.....
Or maybe we should waterboard them until they confess, since you've deemed them guilty already....
 rolleyes
JD

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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Sure am glad my taxes are funding KBR
« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2007, 09:48:20 AM »
Would you care to cite any circumstances where Blackwater exceeded their constitutional obligations without ramifications during Katrina?

Fixed.

Blackwater is a private company that operates under contract, they don't have Constitutional obligations any more than you or I do. 

If employed by a government agency, the Constitutional issues are handled by the employer, all BW or any other private group have to do is follow the terms of their contract and applicable criminal and civil laws.
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

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Len Budney

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Re: Sure am glad my taxes are funding KBR
« Reply #43 on: December 12, 2007, 09:54:43 AM »
Blackwater is a private company that operates under contract, they don't have Constitutional obligations any more than you or I do. 

That's why mercenaries are so important: government can hire them to do things which are unconstitutional for government itself to do.

But your latter point is more important: when government invests them with authority and then orders them to do something, constitutional limits apply to the employer. At minimum, the agency hiring them is committing high crimes. But so are the mercenaries, if they obey orders to commit crimes: the immunity granted them by their government employer is invalid, and hence they're responsible for crimes committed at their employers' behest.

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MechAg94

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Re: Sure am glad my taxes are funding KBR
« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2007, 09:56:41 AM »
In this case, would the KBR employees be tried under Iraqi law? 
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Len Budney

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Re: Sure am glad my taxes are funding KBR
« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2007, 10:30:28 AM »
In this case, would the KBR employees be tried under Iraqi law? 

I dunno much about international law. The crime happened in Iraq, but the perps and victim were all American.
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gunsmith

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Re: Sure am glad my taxes are funding KBR
« Reply #46 on: December 12, 2007, 01:35:12 PM »
ok Jamis, I'll agree...a fair trial then we shoot them! grin
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Sure am glad my taxes are funding KBR
« Reply #47 on: December 12, 2007, 02:42:54 PM »
ok Jamis, I'll agree...a fair trial then we shoot them! grin

Execution by firing squad seems reasonable under the Constitution and BOR.  And nothing says a RIGHTFULLY convicted criminal can't be publicly executed.
If they are found guilty though due process, then let's do it.  On TV.  Primetime.
JD

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Len Budney

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Re: Sure am glad my taxes are funding KBR
« Reply #48 on: December 12, 2007, 04:03:07 PM »
ok Jamis, I'll agree...a fair trial then we shoot them! grin

I'm fine with shooting the guilty.

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RevDisk

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Re: Sure am glad my taxes are funding KBR
« Reply #49 on: December 12, 2007, 05:35:52 PM »
Isn't that the point where you are supposed to write your Congressman?  Smiley

I went through proper channels and did my part.  I'm well aware that the former CEO of the company that owns KBR is Dick Chaney.  I was a very low ranking enlisted guy.  I reported to my chain of command and the IG.  I'm not particularly suicidal either.  So that's as far as I went.  Besides, KBR had scams a hundred times bigger than skimming minor fuel contracts and poisoning soldiers.  If they never got more than a slap on the wrists for those scams, these scams would have MAYBE gotten them a 'nasty gram' that was more apologetic than nasty.
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