Author Topic: Victim: Gang-Rape Cover-Up by U.S., Halliburton/KBR  (Read 25186 times)

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Victim: Gang-Rape Cover-Up by U.S., Halliburton/KBR
« Reply #75 on: December 13, 2007, 05:51:04 PM »
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

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Manedwolf

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Re: Victim: Gang-Rape Cover-Up by U.S., Halliburton/KBR
« Reply #76 on: December 13, 2007, 06:21:18 PM »
Nice Kos Kid posters...  rolleyes

Perd Hapley

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Re: Sure am glad my taxes are funding KBR
« Reply #77 on: December 13, 2007, 07:08:54 PM »
No one's going to get shot on his say-so.   

But if that does become a feature here, on APS, I would certainly appreciate it.  Hint, hint.   police
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Victim: Gang-Rape Cover-Up by U.S., Halliburton/KBR
« Reply #78 on: December 13, 2007, 10:30:09 PM »
Nice Kos Kid posters...  rolleyes

I got it from a FARK thread, not really on point, but I like the detail of the collar SS being dollar signs.

I guess I'm at a loss on the thread topic itself.  Investigate if a crime was indeed committed, if so, punish the guilty, both the active perpetrators and any who became accessories after the fact by assisting them.

Until there's an investigation it's just spinning wheels.
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

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Re: Victim: Gang-Rape Cover-Up by U.S., Halliburton/KBR
« Reply #79 on: December 14, 2007, 02:22:30 AM »

We were talking about corporate evil, which I do not see in this case. Oh, she got fired. It is a private company; they reserve the right to fire you, while some compensation may be in order depending on the hiring contract. Oh, she was "imprisoned" in a container. Whoever did that can be prosecuted as a private citizen, just as the rapists should. The corporation has little to do with this, other than being shot at by politically motivated journalists and posters.

The Corp can still be held responsible if anyone at the corp directed any of the activities in this story (such as the imprisonment).  In the eyes of the law, the perps can be seen as agents of the corp.  My biz law classes are 12 years behind me, so the details are fuzzy, but I do recall learning that actions taken by employees while on the clock and/or under the direction of management bring liability to the company.

Chris

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Re: Sure am glad my taxes are funding KBR
« Reply #80 on: December 14, 2007, 03:42:20 AM »
Now that's ironic coming from the apologeticist of cultures where raped women and uncovered women are punished by death.  rolleyes

We were talking about corporate evil, which I do not see in this case...

I hope the irony is obvious to everyone? Some Muslims commit crimes. Therefore Islam itself, and all Muslims in particular--including SS--are guilty. Some KBR employees commit crimes, against a co-worker while on duty and using company resources, notably including weapons, and anyone who implicates KBR is a politically motivated pinko.

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MechAg94

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Re: Victim: Gang-Rape Cover-Up by U.S., Halliburton/KBR
« Reply #81 on: December 14, 2007, 08:11:56 PM »
And again you misrepresent the positions of other posters in both cases Len.  Another reason why those threads always go off the deep end. 
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Re: Sure am glad my taxes are funding KBR
« Reply #82 on: December 14, 2007, 10:38:27 PM »
Now that's ironic coming from the apologeticist of cultures where raped women and uncovered women are punished by death.  rolleyes

We were talking about corporate evil, which I do not see in this case...

I hope the irony is obvious to everyone? Some Muslims commit crimes. Therefore Islam itself, and all Muslims in particular--including SS--are guilty. Some KBR employees commit crimes, against a co-worker while on duty and using company resources, notably including weapons, and anyone who implicates KBR is a politically motivated pinko.

--Len.


As carebear posted:

It's not X when we do it!
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Re: Victim: Gang-Rape Cover-Up by U.S., Halliburton/KBR
« Reply #83 on: December 14, 2007, 11:11:49 PM »
Quote
It's not X when we do it!

you and carebear are not being fair, I am a registered Republican and I am on the side of that poor gal.
The Dem's have far more in common with the National Socialist German Workers Party then the Republicrats do.

(I got this from a blog called right wing rockers)


Since the Left loves to call us conservatives "Nazis," I figured I would take a few minutes today and explain exactly what a Nazi is, just so everyone knows what these people are saying.

The NAtionalistische SoZIalist Deutscher Arbeitspartei (Nationalist Socialist German Workers' Party or NSDAP) was the party of Adolf Hitler, who rose to power in Germany prior to world War II, and brought upon this world one of the most disgusting and heinous regimes the world had ever seen. He was Saddam Hussein's idol.

The party platform, announced by Hitler in 1920 (and unchanged since then), emphasized 25 points:


    1. We demand the unification of all Germans in the Greater Germany on the basis of the right of self-determination of peoples.

This would be the same as demanding, with military force, that the United States and Canada become one country simply because both countries are dominated by English-speaking people. I know of not a single American conservative or liberal who would support this.


    2. We demand equality of rights for the German people in respect to the other nations; abrogation of the peace treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.

If Hitler and his cohorts felt that Germany had been cheated in these treaties, they were certainly within their rights to call the parties back to the table. Once at the table, however, I don't think many conservatives would have capitulated. Today's liberals, on the other hand, may have responded to the threat of force by just giving in to Hitler, as they seem to want to do when threatened with force by terrorists. (Liberal match ... 1-0 Liberals)


    3. We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people, and colonization for our surplus population.

Conservatives would hold that all Hitler had to do here was to simply try to work a deal and purchase such territory. The US did this with both Louisiana and Alaska. Again, this seems another situation where the liberals may have just given in. (Liberal match ... 2-0 Liberals)


    4. Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently no Jew can be a member of the race.

No conservative would approve of this. It's racism plain and simple. Liberals, however, are constantly trying to assign greater value to one race or more of Americans over others. Listen to Louis Farrakhan and Jesse Jackson (both liberals) virtually any time, and you will see the race-baiting (Liberal match ... 3-0 Liberals)


    5. Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Germany only as a guest, and must be under the authority of legislation for foreigners.

Here's a concept that seems pretty "conservative" on the surface. After all, we conservatives are staunchly anti-illegal immigration. We are, however, just as staunchly PRO-LEGAL immigration. Using nice words like "guest" doesn't change the fact that Hitler meant to torture and kill the foreigners living in Germany, especially the Jews. (Sorry Libs, no match ... still 3-0 Liberals)


    6. The right to determine matters concerning administration and law belongs only to the citizen. Therefore we demand that every public office, of any sort whatsoever, whether in the Reich, the county or municipality, be filled only by citizens. We combat the corrupting parliamentary economy, office-holding only according to party inclinations without consideration of character or abilities.

Public office should only be held by citizens. Fair enough. Hitler's position that "office-holding only according to party inclinations without consideration of character or abilities" is right in and of itself. However, we all know what happened when he rose to power. Everyone was expected to govern according to party inclinations. Since the statement itself is basically in line with conservative ideals, conservative match. (3-1 Liberals)


    7. We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.

While I will admit that there aren't any conservatives or liberals trying to chase non-citizens out of the US just because we have enough people here to do the jobs they would do, the liberals in America do believe that the state's first responsibility is "providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens." (Liberal match ... 4-1 Liberals)


    8. Any further immigration of non-citizens is to be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since the 2 August 1914, be forced immediately to leave the Reich.

Again, neither conservatives nor liberals would advocate this policy. Conservatives do advocate that foreigners obey immigration laws when they enter the country, but no one is advocating legal aliens being chased away.


    9. All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.

Citizens by Hitler's definition, of course. Both conservatives and liberals would agree with this in concept, though liberals do try to create rights out of thin air and try to apply various rights unequally. I'll cut the libs a break here and not award a match, since they would at least SAY they agree.


    10. The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all.

To each according to his need ... from each according to his ability. A LIBERAL concept. (Liberal match ... 5-1 Liberals)


    Consequently we demand:

    11. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of rent-slavery.

Equalization of economic outcome - another LIBERAL concept. (Liberal match ... 6-1 Liberals)


    12. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

Confiscation of income simply because SOMEBODY IN PARTICULAR didn't like the way it was earned ... LIBERAL concept. (Liberal match ... 7-1 Liberals) "The other day the oil companies recorded the highest profits in the history of the world. I want to take those profits" ..Hilary Clinton


    13. We demand the nationalization of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).

Nationalization of everything, especially industry ... LIBERAL concept. (Liberal match ... 8-1 Liberals)


    14. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.

Redistribution of wealth ... Hillary Clinton's favorite idea. (Liberal match ... 9-1 Liberals)


    15. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.

Expansion of Socialist Security! LIBERAL. (Liberal match ... 10-1 Liberals)


    16. We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation,
    immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts
    with the State, county or municipality.

Coontrolling who does and doesn't have money; government takeover of businesses ... LIBERAL. (Liberal match ... 11-1 Liberals)


    17. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.

Free expropriation of land and abolition of land speculation ... LIBERAL. (Liberal match ... 12-1 Liberals). Abolition of a tax? Conservative! (Conservative match ... 12-2 Liberals)


    18. We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, Schieber and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.

Punish by death anyone who disagrees with the government. While the liberals would love to advocate this, there are too many anti-death penalty people among them for any of them to admit it. Conservatives welcome opposing opinions, and a lot of liberals do, too. Of course, conservatives generally tend to be the ones wanting to cut back the government.


    19. We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.

Bemoaning a "materialistic world-order" seems kinda liberal to me. (Liberal match ... 13-2 Liberals)


    20. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.

Sounds good on the surface, just like NCLB. The real problem here is that when you turn something as important as education over to the government, you run the risk of extremist thought in the government making its way into the schools and hurting the very people you are trying to help. This is true with virtually every government program, but the problems caused by centralized education in America are obvious. I wonder if it was also true for Nazi Germany. Of course, the liberals have largely been the beneficiaries of America's failed education system, and they consistently call for more government intrusion and intervention. (Liberal match ... 14-2 Liberals)


    21. The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.

Hillary-Care on one hand, pro-life on the other. (One match each ... 15-3 Liberals)


    22. We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.

If the Germans wanted a national army, I doubt any conservative or liberal would have stood in their way.


    23. We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that: a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race: b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the State to be published. They may not be printed in the German language: c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications, or any influence on them, and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life, and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.

While McCain-Feingold did this very same thing, I still doubt most Americans, liberal or conservative, would really support this kind of censorship.


    24. We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: common utility precedes individual utility.

Translation: If we decide your religion is evil, it's evil, and you can't practice freely. This is the ACLU's credo. (Liberal match ... 16-3 Liberals)


    25. For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.

Setting up a big all-powerful government and telling everyone to toe the line or else is just soooo Clintonian. Conservatives cringe at the mere thought of this sort of thing. The government that governs best governs least. (Liberal match ... 17-3 Liberals)


American liberal philosophy matches 17 out of the 25 Points of the Nazi platform. American conservative philosophy matches only 3. Two of these were "double-matches", where both sides would have agreed with the Nazis. There were seven points that were so loony even the Donks wouldn't have agreed.

Now, I haven't called ANYONE a Nazi on this blog in this, or any other, post. I have, however, seen fellow conservatives receive this accusation, but never a liberal. Could it be the liberals are lying about conservatives on this point, too?

RWR

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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Victim: Gang-Rape Cover-Up by U.S., Halliburton/KBR
« Reply #84 on: December 15, 2007, 12:32:50 AM »
For the record, I'm a Goldwater Republican / small "l" libertarian.

I just find the poster funny.  And would note it doesn't say anything about "conservatives", merely a particular party symbol, a party which, by the way, doesn't have a patent on the concept of conservatism, no matter what they'd like to claim.

I would point out that the abstract Republican party, the Republican Party that should be, you are comparing to the Nazi platform does not match in any way but name the current mutant version referenced by the poster. 

To call the Patriot Act and its bastard children "minimally intrusive government" is laughable.

To call most of the federal level, socially conservative ideology "pro-state's rights" is a flat out lie.

To claim the "War on Drugs" has any moral, political or utilitarian differences from the "War on Guns" or the "War on Booze" is just idiotic and should be heckled, not used to justify ever increasing intrusions by government into the business of the citizenry.

To criticize welfare for groups and individuals while simultaneously winking at business, agricultural and corporate tax credits and subsidies is hardly "free market" or intellectually honest.

To jump on board the "government by executive order" and "commerce clause justifies anything" trains as the recent Republican leadership has done is an absolute betrayal of true American conservative thought.

Barry's Republican's, true, financially conservative, minimally intrusive, small government Republicans dovetail neatly with the "best case" Party you use as an example. 

The current abortion headed and symbolized by Rove et al are NOT any Republican Party I want to claim association with and fair no better than the crypto-socialist dominant wing (not it's ideal example either, to be just) of the once proud Democratic Party when compared with the pinnacle of fascist thought. 

For myself, as a true conservative and "real Republican", I'm sick of the current party hacks crap and I'm sick of having to explain the difference between real conservatism and what has stolen its mantle over the past few years.
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Len Budney

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Re: Victim: Gang-Rape Cover-Up by U.S., Halliburton/KBR
« Reply #85 on: December 15, 2007, 02:43:42 AM »
And again you misrepresent the positions of other posters in both cases Len.  Another reason why those threads always go off the deep end. 

Please point out the misrepresentation. Cannoneer specifically blames Islam for an individual's crimes, and calls SS an "apologist" for said crimes... and then argued that KBR can't be blamed for the crimes committed by its employees while on duty using company resources.

--Len.
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MechAg94

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Re: Victim: Gang-Rape Cover-Up by U.S., Halliburton/KBR
« Reply #86 on: December 15, 2007, 09:43:42 AM »
Len,
1.  On the other thread about the "honor killing", Cannoneer didn't even post until the 3rd page, long after SS went on his tirade trying to tear down Christianity in order to defend Islam.  As if Islam cannot be defended on its own merit.  The few comments about Islam came after SS started attacking Christianity.  Kind of understandable at that point.  At least it was finally noted in that thread that cultural issues are behind that stuff more than Islam.  That discussion might have been interesting, but it never happened. 

2.  So you are basing all your opinions on what just one poster said?   Why are you painting everyone with your arguments when you are really just arguing with Cannoneer?  If you are targeting his comments, quote him.  I think just about everyone else has pointed out the corporation would be held liable and attempting to cover up the crime is a crime also.   

3.  I get the impression you are saying "if you aren't with me you are against me" and working under the assumption that everyone not with you agrees with each other.  I doubt that is the case as that would be foolish.  Smiley

4.  I actually do agree with many times at least in part, but I normally dislike you argument tactics. 
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Len Budney

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Re: Victim: Gang-Rape Cover-Up by U.S., Halliburton/KBR
« Reply #87 on: December 15, 2007, 10:47:25 AM »
... The few comments about Islam came after SS started attacking Christianity...

That's context you feel justifies what Cannoneer said, but it doesn't in any way suggest that I misrepresented what he said.

Quote
Why are you painting everyone with your arguments when you are really just arguing with Cannoneer?

Since when painting everyone? I quoted Cannoneer and said, "I hope the irony is obvious to everyone." I think it's clear that I was engaging only Cannoneer and his statements. I didn't say anything about anyone else.

Quote
If you are targeting his comments, quote him.

Um, I did.

Quote
I think just about everyone else has pointed out the corporation would be held liable and attempting to cover up the crime is a crime also.   

Correct. I didn't say otherwise. In fact Cannoneer had a point, though: the corporation isn't necessarily guilty of anything because the employees committed crimes. It's true of KBR and equally true of Islam.

--Len.
In a cannibal society, vegetarians arouse suspicion.

De Selby

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Re: Victim: Gang-Rape Cover-Up by U.S., Halliburton/KBR
« Reply #88 on: December 15, 2007, 01:43:46 PM »
MechAg,

Let's get one thing clear: I do not condone tearing down Christianity.  I was comparing what the treatment would be if Christianity were judged by the same standards that people like CAnnoneer are using to judge Islam, not saying "Christianity is just as bad!". 

Christians sometimes commit crimes.  Sometimes they even cite religious motives.  But blaming Christianity as a whole, and calling other Christians "apologists" if they defend Christianity from distortions and criminals, is completely out of line.  Yet this is what people do to Islam and Muslims on a regular basis-including on this KBR thread, where a rape committed by Americans was immediately contrasted to rapes in countries with lots of Muslims.

Review my posts and that will be clear to you.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

MechAg94

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Re: Victim: Gang-Rape Cover-Up by U.S., Halliburton/KBR
« Reply #89 on: December 15, 2007, 06:51:29 PM »
SS, sounds fine.  As I said, I think you can defend Islam without mentioning any other religion if you try. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

De Selby

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Re: Victim: Gang-Rape Cover-Up by U.S., Halliburton/KBR
« Reply #90 on: December 15, 2007, 07:27:48 PM »
SS, sounds fine.  As I said, I think you can defend Islam without mentioning any other religion if you try. 

So do I-the comparison was for the purposes of highlighting the biased coverage and treatment Islam gets when Muslims do something bad, versus other religions.  The idea is to show that the reasoning behind the attacks on Islam is flawed, not that all religions are equally bad.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

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Re: Victim: Gang-Rape Cover-Up by U.S., Halliburton/KBR
« Reply #91 on: December 15, 2007, 07:37:59 PM »
You know what?! the Islam hijab thread is closed, we couldn't resolve it there lets not resolve here because its not really the topic.

Oh, and the left throwing around the "fascist" label is surely the stupidest joke ever.
The authoritarian left is modern fascism.
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K Frame

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Re: Victim: Gang-Rape Cover-Up by U.S., Halliburton/KBR
« Reply #92 on: December 16, 2007, 06:12:57 AM »
"So a corporation has absolutely no culpability for the actions of its employees?"

That's a CIVIL matter to be determined by the courts.

It's pretty impressive some of the "conclusions" that have been jumped to.

Given that line of (non) thinking, I submit to you all that, based on some of those arguments, you are all guilty of accessory to rape as you are citizens of the United States and, under the Constitution, have a voice in the affairs of your government.

I've read through 4 pages of this thread, and I have no clue why I've kept it open as long as I have.

Some of you had better do some SERIOUS thinking about what you're posting.
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