Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof

[Desertdog]

Ariz. City Cops Ask Citizenship Proof
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071223/D8TNANIG0.html


PHOENIX (AP) - Police in suburban Scottsdale have begun routinely asking for proof of citizenship from every suspect they arrest and turning those who are in this country illegally over to federal immigration officials.

The procedure was started Oct. 15, a result of the September killing of Phoenix police officer Nick Erfle by an illegal immigrant, Erik Jovani Martinez.

Scottsdale police had arrested Martinez on a misdemeanor charge 16 months earlier but they released him then because they didn't know he was an illegal immigrant who had been twice deported.

Erfle's killing "caused us to look at what were asking suspects," Scottsdale police Sgt. Mark Clark said. "If we arrest someone and then find that we called ICE (Customs and Immigration Enforcement) and they put a hold on them, then we know they have been deported and are back again."

Martinez was later killed by police after he stole a car and took a hostage, authorities said.

Now police in the affluent suburb ask every suspect about their citizenship, have ICE agents pick up those who are in this country illegally, and keep a database of possible illegal immigrants in case they turn up again.

Scottsdale Mayor Mary Manross supports the policy change and said that because every suspect is asked about citizenship, police are not engaged in racial profiling.

"I would not tolerate that," Manross said. "I think the chief has struck the right balance to do what we want to achieve."

Clark said that in the past Scottsdale officers didn't routinely call ICE about illegal immigrants because the agency was short-handed and could not always respond.

That's changed, said Eduardo Preciado, an assistant ICE field officer in Phoenix. The agency was short-staffed until about a year ago when it added agents to man phones and to assist local law enforcement agencies, he said.

"Now we respond to every call," Preciado said.

[The Rabbi]

"Papieren, bitte."


I see the transformation has already begun.

[Nitrogen]

I thought AZ made rules against this when the Chandler PD worked with the INS all those years ago?

I was living there at the time.

[Leatherneck]

Born in Massachusetts, I don't know how I could *prove* my citizenship at the drop of a hat. Don't know as I would even try. Might be a little disrespectful language at the cop shop though. Pigs.

TC

[Phantom Warrior]

Born in Massachusetts, I don't know how I could *prove* my citizenship at the drop of a hat.

Huh.  That's a good point.  At the same time, everyone is complaining about illegal immigrants (myself included) and gripping whenever rules are made to prevent police from checking on someone's citizenship status.  How would you catch illegal immigrants w/o making citizens carry around ze papers everywhere they go?  Any thoughts?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i'm 1/2 japanese and with long hair and a mustache i looked latino to the ins guy who raided a construction site and demanded my papers. i also didn't have a drivers license. its was a standoff i think the deciding factor was the manner and pronunciation i used to describe his relationship with his mother that tipped the scales in my favor.

maybe ice is coming when the cops call in arizona  they aren't around here   even in cases as serious as sexual assault. pisses cops off

[seeker_two]

Police in suburban Scottsdale have begun routinely asking for proof of citizenship from every suspect they arrest and turning those who are in this country illegally over to federal immigration officials.

....or maybe, if you don't get arrested while doing something illegal, it's not a problem to worry about......

[mustanger98]

Well, I've heard some say "we oughta deport anybody that don't look like they're from Alabama". But that's profiling, and what does someone have to look like to be from somewhere. Somebody can look like they're from Alabama and actually be from somewhere up North and you can't always go by accent. I recall one of my sister's friends in college... this girl was from Forsyth County, GA and constantly faked a Brooklyn, NY accent. Another thing that gets me... take somebody from Hawaii who might be Polynesian, but they may also be of various oriental decents... they're still Americans too. Anybody here watch M*A*S*H? Consider Frank Burns in the OR ranting about "commies" and "gooks" all looking alike and Nurse Kelly (half Chinese) standing right there having to listen to it.

How would you catch illegal immigrants w/o making citizens carry around ze papers everywhere they go?  Any thoughts?

Good question. In my case, I have the GA ID (w/photo, but not a driver's license), SS card, selective service card, GA honorary/disabled hunting/fishing license... my understanding is you can't get those without being a citizen. Add to that I had to send a copy of my registered copy birth certificate when I ordered my CMP Garand... they don't sell you a rifle or ammo if you're not a citizen. I guess even though I don't carry "ze papers", I still carry "ze papers" anyway.

....or maybe, if you don't get arrested while doing something illegal, it's not a problem to worry about......

There's the point for probably most of us.

[The Rabbi]

I consistently warned about this kind of thing in numerous past discussions.  Everyone is all for "round 'em up and send 'em home" without realizing that curtailing civil liberties to do that means curtailing them for everyone.
So now AZ also has a law (so does TN) prohibiting employers from employing illegals.  The employer has to run them through some Federal database.  Surprise surprise, the database has inaccuracies and not all legal citizens will show up.  So how long until some guy born here with a Hispanic name and appearance whose info doesn't appear on the list gets fired?
No, this is asking for a police state.

[Laurent du Var]

Let me play the devils advocate :

How about asking proof for citizenship the criminals
with :
         a) an accent (would include me, if I had commited a crime)
         b) brownish short fellas
         c) heavily tatooed fellas
         d) greyish fellas with a long beard
         e) greyish fellas without a beard with a history of studying in Germany
         f) people who are well over seven feet tall
         

No, I'm just kidding I'm all for checking ones nationality after a commited crime.
In France if you're a foreigner and you commit a crime you will spend your whole sentence as opposed to early release for good behaviour and you'll then be expulsed and prohibited for life to come back on French territory.
In my book you could shoot criminal tourists right up to the moon.

   

[The Rabbi]

In France if you're a foreigner and you commit a crime you will spend your whole sentence as opposed to early release for good behaviour and you'll then be expulsed and prohibited for life to come back on French territory.
   

I thought the idea was to punish criminals.  Maybe they should feed them tete de veaux or escargot or something for their period of incarceration.

[jefnvk]

I'm starting to see why no one wants a border fence.  More illegals means support for things such as this.

[MechAg94]

I think even if most citizens carried no ID, their name would be in the system and likely enough to identify them.  The problem would be if you are a naturalized citizen or have a name flagged as used by illegals for fake ID's.  That could be a problem. 

In this case, it sounds like they ask only if they stop or question you for something else.  They would likely be asking for ID in those cases anyway.  I am not sure this us any closer to the "Papers, please" situation. 

[Nitrogen]

I think even if most citizens carried no ID, their name would be in the system and likely enough to identify them.  The problem would be if you are a naturalized citizen or have a name flagged as used by illegals for fake ID's.  That could be a problem. 

In this case, it sounds like they ask only if they stop or question you for something else.  They would likely be asking for ID in those cases anyway.  I am not sure this us any closer to the "Papers, please" situation. 

Sure it is.

As someone else said, if you got stopped by the police for speeding, for instance, could you PROVE your citizenship right there?  The next logical step, will be the requirement for citizens to carry their papers on them.

Remember the old addage, innocent until proven guilty?  I know it's been infringed upon quite a bit, but that's supposed to be what we're about.  The government should need to PROVE you're illegal, you shouldn't need to prove you're not.

[Phyphor]

"Papieren, bitte."


I see the transformation has already begun.

I'm in total agreement.

On one hand, I don't like the parallels to Nazi Germany.

On the other hand, I think we should be doing something about these illegals.

On the gripping hand, the govt. is gonna do whatever the hell it feels like.  We'd either better invest in a lot of butter or do something about it.  Mainly, stop voting for those that would take our liberties away from us, one piece at a time.

[MechAg94]

Sure.  They ask for my driver's license already.  That should give them all the data they need to look me up.  It also shows I have blue eyes and brown hair just like the photo.  I also am required in Texas to give them my CHL.  Verbally asking about my citizenship is something they could do, but I doubt they would need an answer once they saw me and I opened my mouth to speak. 

I guess all I am saying is I don't think this little issue adds anything to what LEO's already do and have done for years.

[Phyphor]

I think even if most citizens carried no ID, their name would be in the system and likely enough to identify them.  The problem would be if you are a naturalized citizen or have a name flagged as used by illegals for fake ID's.  That could be a problem. 

In this case, it sounds like they ask only if they stop or question you for something else.  They would likely be asking for ID in those cases anyway.  I am not sure this us any closer to the "Papers, please" situation. 

Sure it is.

Das ist nicht scheisse.

(Irony intended)

Federal ID card, anyone?

As someone else said, if you got stopped by the police for speeding, for instance, could you PROVE your citizenship right there?  The next logical step, will be the requirement for citizens to carry their papers on them.

Best I could do is a drivers license and a ID card.... Selective Service card too, come to think of it.  Assuming that's good enough.  Although I'm quite white.

Remember the old addage, innocent until proven guilty?  I know it's been infringed upon quite a bit, but that's supposed to be what we're about.  The government should need to PROVE you're illegal, you shouldn't need to prove you're not.

Heh, in the land of no-knock warrants (issued because of hearsay) and warrentless phone taps, the above has gone from reality to a distant memory.

[AZRedhawk44]

On one hand, on the other hand, on the gripping hand.... I like!

I live in Scottsdale, and I wholeheartedly support this program.  I hate anything smelling of JBT/goose-steppers, but what's happening here is a blanket check for EVERYONE, who is ARRESTED on suspicion of some other crime.

There's no road blocks in front of Filiberto's taco stand or stalking of Hector's yard service.  That's what the IRS, INS and ICE are for.

[gunsmith]

THIS IS NOTHING LIKE NAZI GERMANY!

Trying to say so minimizes the genocide of WW2, criminals are getting deported before they get to kill,rape and destroy the lives of legal immigrants to this country as well as USA born citizens.

So after you've gotten ARRESTED you stay there until proven an American citizen, even if you are a white guy with "Live Free Or Die" tatooed on your forehead.

This is a far cry from sending people with dark hair to concentration camps and executing people for looking like a Jew while they are out shopping.

In MEXICO and NEARLY EVERY OTHER COUNTRY ON EARTH if you mess up so bad that you get ARRESTED they are gong to keep you there until proven a citizen, especially if you cant even speak the same language of the majority of the people of the country you were arrested in.

Everyone yelling NAZI at the drop of a hat is very disturbing, it makes folks who are unaware of history think the Nazi's weren't that bad.

[Phyphor]

THIS IS NOTHING LIKE NAZI GERMANY!

Yet.  Little by little it creeps closer.

So after you've gotten ARRESTED you stay there until proven an American citizen, even if you are a white guy with "Live Free Or Die" tatooed on your forehead.

So much for 'innocent until proven guilty.'

What if your paperwork is gone?  Say, you lost it in a fire or it was stolen?  How do you prove you were a citizen, then?

Don't we have laws against imprisoning people without the benefit of a trial?

This is a far cry from sending people with dark hair to concentration camps and executing people for looking like a Jew while they are out shopping.

While I don't believe executions are exactly around the corner for folks labeled 'undesirables' here, it is awfully scary to see how our government is proceeding down that slippery slope for the sake of expediency.

In MEXICO and NEARLY EVERY OTHER COUNTRY ON EARTH if you mess up so bad that you get ARRESTED they are gong to keep you there until proven a citizen, especially if you cant even speak the same language of the majority of the people of the country you were arrested in.

FYI, you don't exactly have to mess up badly to be arrested.  If the police officer suspects you're intoxicated, or you're disturbing the peace, or any of hundreds of other minor offense, you can be arrested.  It ain't just hardened criminals getting cuffs slapped on them. 

[Moondoggie]

Personally, I rather proud of the fact that I was born in the USA...and happy about it, too!

Somebody asks me to prove I'm a citizen, I'm happy to oblige.

How fricking hard would it be to carry a photocopy of your birth certificate in your billfold???  We all carry plenty of other junk in there...c'mon, admit it.  Reduce it to manageable size and laminate it.  How hard is that???

If we wouldn't have been such pussies for the last 50 yrs and let several million illegal aliens take unfettered residence in our country (WITH BENEFITS) , we wouldn't have this problem in the first place.

"Papers, please"...my dyin' ass!

The vast majority of people polled by everybody in this country want illegal immigration curtailed...then they whine when the cops actually do something about it.

[The Rabbi]

The vast majority of people polled by everybody in this country want illegal immigration curtailed...then they whine when the cops actually do something about it.

Bingo!  We have a winner!
Yes, people are happy to throw the book at illegal immigrants.  As long as throwing the book won't affect them negatively.
What they fail to realize is that there is no discernible difference between an illegal immigrant, a legal immigrant, and a native born citizen.  Thus to determine the difference, more intrusive methods must be used.  Like verifying citizenship for employment.  And since those verification methods are imprecise and subject to error, voila! You have legal Americans being fired and discriminated against.

[jefnvk]

How fricking hard would it be to carry a photocopy of your birth certificate in your billfold???  We all carry plenty of other junk in there...c'mon, admit it.  Reduce it to manageable size and laminate it.  How hard is that???

I don't think a photocopy counts as acceptable in most cases.

[atomd]

I am against a national ID card. I do not think the police should be able to stop anyone they want and demand their papers. I do think that there has to be a way to properly identify people who are arrested though. If there wasn't any way to identify people then there would be no way to deal with any crime in a court of law to begin with. If I were arrested I would just say that I was Hillary Clinton and let them deal with it from there while I was out on bail. There is no way you can be in this country legally without some form of paperwork available from somewhere. I don't think it's the citizen's job to carry that ID at all times but I do think it's the job of the INS or whomever else to prove that the people who are here illegally are in fact here illegally..then dealt with accordingly. I find nothing wrong with looking into whether someone is an actual citizen while trying to prove their identity after being arrested.

[gunsmith]

We don't need no National ID, just have everyone get a passport.
Just like the rest of the world.


Getting rid of illegal aliens makes us exactly like the Nazi's....just ask these kids.