Author Topic: Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof  (Read 23511 times)

atomd

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Re: Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2007, 07:50:35 PM »
Quote
Getting rid of illegal aliens makes us exactly like the Nazi's....just ask these kids.

I have to disagree. Comparing securing your border to Nazi Germany is asinine. Two totally different things. Last time I checked the INS hasn't fired up their gas chambers.  rolleyes

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Re: Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2007, 08:00:03 PM »
umm
Quote
I have to disagree. Comparing securing your border to Nazi Germany is asinine. Two totally different things. Last time I checked the INS hasn't fired up their gas chambers.
That was kind of my point here.
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atomd

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Re: Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2007, 08:10:30 PM »
Sorry Gunsmith, you are right. I didn't re-read your previous replies on this thread so I missed that sarcasm there. I think we're on the same page here.

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Re: Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2007, 11:27:53 PM »
The picture of those poor kids comes from the medical experiments they conducted.
People (usually on the left) who go around saying we are becoming like the Nazi's do not have a clue about how gross, insensitive  & plain ignorant they sound.

They're are a lot of things to dislike about the Bush 43 admin, accusing them of being like the Nazi's is a disgusting smear against the actual millions and millions of people who suffered quite horribly, under real fascism.

Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

seeker_two

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Re: Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2007, 05:39:16 AM »
umm
Quote
I have to disagree. Comparing securing your border to Nazi Germany is asinine. Two totally different things. Last time I checked the INS hasn't fired up their gas chambers.
That was kind of my point here.

You and Will Smith are having a bad week, eh?..... Wink

+1 to all your comments, gunsmith. We're not acting anything like Nazi Germany by enacting this program in AZ. If you want to compare us to another nation, maybe we need to guard our southern border more like Mexico does?.....  police
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Re: Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2007, 06:49:50 AM »
We don't need no National ID, just have everyone get a passport.
Just like the rest of the world.


Getting rid of illegal aliens makes us exactly like the Nazi's....just ask these kids.

Like the rest of the world? Heck, my passport has expired. I've got an ID card. Good enough for travelling through Schengen treaty countries. My ID was issued by the police, but I got that because I wanted something that would be good for ID purposes in the rest of Europe, otherwise I would simply use a drivers license, or an ID issued by the bank/post office...

MechAg94

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Re: Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2007, 07:15:13 AM »
IMO, just giving your full name ought to provide enough information that LEO's can look you up in the system.  I don't think carrying birth certificates and US I.D. cards is necessary for this.  I don't think "proving" your citizenship is really necessary.  Naturalized or legal immigrants might have more of an issue, but they are also more likely to have their information in the LEO database. 

If you are Arrested, LEO's already look for your name and ID to find outstanding warrants and such.  Looking up your citizenship or immigration status in addition to that is minor.  All you have to do is get pulled over for a traffic violation to get that search done.

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Re: Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2007, 11:08:07 AM »
"Papieren, bitte."


I see the transformation has already begun.

Don't confuse fascism with enforcing the laws.
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wooderson

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Re: Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2007, 12:31:24 PM »
Um, MechAG, most names (particularly those of people who are going to be questioned about illegal status) are fairly common. This means that people are going to be flagged incorrectly, one way or the other. If you're an illegal, why not just guess a random, common name that's going to come up as 'legal' and walk away? If we open that system up, such that the cops might not believe you and can detain you anyway... we're back to square one.

And gunsmith, no one has suggested that fascistic demands are tantamount to the Holocaust. You might have noticed that the Nazis ran their state for a number of years prior to The Final Solution, employing precisely the kind of controls people are raising their eyebrows at.
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Re: Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2007, 12:32:14 PM »
How about I just recite my ancestry back to SC in the 1700's ?
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Re: Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2007, 12:36:16 PM »
"Papieren, bitte."


I see the transformation has already begun.

Don't confuse fascism with enforcing the laws.

Everything the Nazis did was strictly according to the law.
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Jocassee

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Re: Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2007, 12:50:45 PM »
"Papieren, bitte."


I see the transformation has already begun.

Don't confuse fascism with enforcing the laws.

Everything the Nazis did was strictly according to the law.

Correct. But I fail to see how enforcing IMMIGRATION law specifically puts, or furthers, this nation on the Slippery Slope (you know the one I'm talking about). How would one identify illegal aliens except by their papieren, be that driver's license or whatever. If they were calling for a national ID I would take issue with it, but they aren't. They're checking licenses and immigration papers, which they should be doing anyway.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2007, 03:45:13 PM »
so what do you suggest be done when someone has neither?  how long will you want the cops to hold them?just in case

Jocassee

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Re: Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2007, 05:19:41 PM »
so what do you suggest be done when someone has neither?  how long will you want the cops to hold them?just in case
If they are merely being arrested for a crime--we are not pulling random peeps off the streets--then if they are aliens, their docs have to be current or correct. If they are supposedly a citizen, their social, DL and/or birth certificate, or record of residency should clear them. Muy facil.
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Re: Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2007, 09:40:05 PM »
i musta been unclear  when the cops stop someone and they don't have papers   what do you propose the cops do? not all interactions require arrest. not even all crimes require arrest. how long before the illegals learn to use a legal name and no papers. cops run the name it comes back good. junkies do that already. so are you proposing the cops start holding anyone with no papers till they check out? or have some new method i haven't considered?   some folks used gold stars once but that won't fly here. yet.

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Re: Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof
« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2007, 04:33:37 AM »
"Papieren, bitte."


I see the transformation has already begun.

Don't confuse fascism with enforcing the laws.

Everything the Nazis did was strictly according to the law.

Correct. But I fail to see how enforcing IMMIGRATION law specifically puts, or furthers, this nation on the Slippery Slope (you know the one I'm talking about). How would one identify illegal aliens except by their papieren, be that driver's license or whatever. If they were calling for a national ID I would take issue with it, but they aren't. They're checking licenses and immigration papers, which they should be doing anyway.

The Nazis also enforced "immigration law", making criminals of Jews who had immigrated to Germany from Poland, even where that had happened 50 years earlier.
We are a long way from Nazi Germany.
But again, one cannot tell the difference between an illegal immigrant and a legal immigrant or a native-born American by sight.  So the only way to distinguish is by paperwork.  And that means everyone-EVERYONE-having paperwork to show their status.  And we are a lot closer to that than most people think.
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MechAg94

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Re: Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof
« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2007, 05:43:51 AM »
Most states require you to carry a DL when driving.  In this case, we are talking about arrests, not stopping people at random on the streets.  They are being detained for a period of time already.  To my knowledge, all they are doing is bring the INS and BP warrants/flags into the loop instead of just the regular law enforcement warrants/flags.  In this case, the change is fairly limited. 

If you want to argue a hypothetical of taking random people aside for papers checks, that is a bit different and apart from the "slippery slope".  If you are not carrying your ID, I would think just providing your name ought to bring up a physical description the officer could compare.  They might ask you to confirm your address to verify.  These things can be done without "papers", at least for 99.99% of the people out there.  Of course, that should still not be done unless you are already doing something that would get you arrested.
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MechAg94

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Re: Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2007, 05:54:42 AM »
Um, MechAG, most names (particularly those of people who are going to be questioned about illegal status) are fairly common. This means that people are going to be flagged incorrectly, one way or the other. If you're an illegal, why not just guess a random, common name that's going to come up as 'legal' and walk away? If we open that system up, such that the cops might not believe you and can detain you anyway... we're back to square one.
In this case, people are being detained already and the immigration status check has been added to the standard "open warrants" check.  They are not yanking people off the streets to check papers.  That is a hypothetical situation that has been added to this conversation. 

Fake names were a problem last year and will be next year, regardless of this change.  Since we are talking about people who are already being arrested and likely fingerprinted, I am not sure it changes anything. 

I agree that if someone is not being arrested/detained for some other reason, he shouldn't be detained for any extra immigration checks or ID checks.  I agree the potential situation could be bad, but I just don't see this situation as moving that direction.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof
« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2007, 07:32:32 AM »
How would you catch illegal immigrants w/o making citizens carry around ze papers everywhere they go?  Any thoughts?
A simple call to the county health records office to check on a birth certificate could verify citizenship for the vast majority of citizens. 

Proving your citizenship isn't particularly difficult in this country.  The police can check the citizenship of all whom they arrest without the citizenry being required to carry papers.

Don't get me wrong, I think that most of the immigration enforcement schemes currently under discussion are statist and immoral.  But I don't see a problem with what the Scottsdale police are doing.

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Re: Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof
« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2007, 07:59:45 AM »
"Papieren, bitte."


I see the transformation has already begun.

Don't confuse fascism with enforcing the laws.

Everything the Nazis did was strictly according to the law.

Correct. But I fail to see how enforcing IMMIGRATION law specifically puts, or furthers, this nation on the Slippery Slope (you know the one I'm talking about). How would one identify illegal aliens except by their papieren, be that driver's license or whatever. If they were calling for a national ID I would take issue with it, but they aren't. They're checking licenses and immigration papers, which they should be doing anyway.

... And that means everyone-EVERYONE-having paperwork to show their status.  And we are a lot closer to that than most people think.

Only if you don't have a valid driver's license--a very small percentage. Once again--national ID = baaad. DL check = gooood. If no DL, then special considerations come into play, such as what papers ARE needed, or how long to hold someone. Since we're on the topic...

How DO the INS determine of someone is ilega? Seems to me their procedures would answer a lot of questions on this topic.
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Re: Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2007, 09:19:32 AM »
"A simple call to the county health records office to check on a birth certificate could verify citizenship for the vast majority of citizens. "
really?  you think all those county offices answer or could answer that  volume of calls?lots of citizens born overseas  or like me in territorys of the us. heck the college grad at the state dept asked my sis if she was a citizen   being born on wake island and all. mind you she was applying for a passport

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2007, 01:05:42 PM »
i musta been unclear  when the cops stop someone and they don't have papers   what do you propose the cops do? not all interactions require arrest. not even all crimes require arrest. how long before the illegals learn to use a legal name and no papers. cops run the name it comes back good. junkies do that already. so are you proposing the cops start holding anyone with no papers till they check out? or have some new method i haven't considered?   some folks used gold stars once but that won't fly here. yet.

Quote from: OP
PHOENIX (AP) - Police in suburban Scottsdale have begun routinely asking for proof of citizenship from every suspect they arrest and turning those who are in this country illegally over to federal immigration officials.

Completely unrelated to the OP.  Only matters if you are being arrested on charges completely unrelated to immigration offences.  Kinda like how Al Capone was finally stopped from rumrunning by tax evasion, or how charges against a bank robber can be doubled or tripled by stacking on assault and "gun" charges as well as the grand larceny.

This action targets those who are already suspect (hence the arrest) for breaking the law.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2007, 05:46:24 PM »
i'm arrested on a bondable offense   how lomg are the cops allowed to hold me trying to verify my status? and bear in mind how many folks have the same name

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Re: Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2007, 06:01:32 PM »
i'm arrested on a bondable offense   how lomg are the cops allowed to hold me trying to verify my status? and bear in mind how many folks have the same name

how long can they keep you if they cannot verify your identity?
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Re: Lesson Learned the Hard Way. Scottsdale AZ Cops Ask Citizenship Proof
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2007, 09:31:45 PM »
Quote
how long can they keep you if they cannot verify your identity?

probably the same amount as any other citizen, and I really hope it is a long time...

I am sick and tired of illegal immigration, I would vote for anyone who could get rid of them.
I want a wall and I want them all deported whether they are from Newcastle, Nigeria, Novotroitsk, Nicaragua  or Nuevo Laredo....I don't care!!! I am sick of it all!!!
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
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