Author Topic: Should Marijuana be legal?  (Read 54341 times)

The Rabbi

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Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #125 on: January 11, 2008, 01:30:49 PM »
And there can be no debate that drug use will increase with legalization, otherwise you are positing that laws have zero effect on human behavior.

I suggest you look back to my previous post, where I point out that it can be debated.  There are a number of sources where drugs have been legalized and drug use hasen't increased.

Of course, I provided sources, but didn't see a response from you.

Out of every X number of responsible users of whatever, a certain number will end up abusing it.  This is just a certainty.  So if you increase the number of users you will end up increasing the number of abusers as well.

Actually, discounting the feds current 'any use is abuse' policy, about the same percentage of the population abuse drugs no matter the legality.  And it's the abusers, not the users that we have to worry about.  So no, increasing the number of users won't automatically increase the numbers of abusers.

As others have pointed out, our WoD hasn't managed to remove availability.  Heck, over 50% of high school studends in NORTH DAKOTA have admitted to at least trying MJ, actually a higher rate than admitted to smoking or drinking.

So keeping it illegal isn't reducing usage, it's not increasing safety, it's not working.  It's a gripping hand thing - by trying to ban it, it slips through the government's control.  Legalize it and the feds would actually be able to control and regulate it more - and turn millions of dollars of law enforcement costs into millions of dollars of revenue.

As I mentioned, I'm not a user either.  I don't drink, smoke, or do anything illegal.  About all I take is the occasional allergy/cold tablet and pepto for an upset stomach.
So your point is that laws have no effect on human behavior.
OK.  That's certainly an opinion.
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The Rabbi

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Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #126 on: January 11, 2008, 01:32:53 PM »
Drug addicts lose the ability to work, thus their ability to earn money.  But they dont lose their penchant for drugs.  Where will they turn?

Well, right now we lock them up, good thing the taxpayer doesn't have to support them while they're in jail and not working.  This really is the best thing though, everyone knows that if once someone smokes pot they are incapable of employment., it's probably also a myth that many high-powered lawyers, stock brokers, and other people making serious bank never use cocaine.     
You're assuming its the same people.  It won't be.
But your solution is to make the problem worse?  How is that a good idea?
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wooderson

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Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #127 on: January 11, 2008, 02:17:29 PM »
You gonna acknowledge your improper comparisons of marijuana and opium, as well as linking marijuana and 'hard drugs'?
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Glock Glockler

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Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #128 on: January 11, 2008, 03:06:51 PM »
You're assuming its the same people.  It won't be

So you think everyone will run out and become drug addicts as soon as they're legally allowed to do so, isn't that something of an assumption on your part? grin

wooderson

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Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #129 on: January 11, 2008, 03:24:04 PM »
Where's the thread for legalizing mescaline?
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Firethorn

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Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #130 on: January 11, 2008, 03:50:00 PM »
So your point is that laws have no effect on human behavior.
OK.  That's certainly an opinion.

Nice strawman.  My point is that laws banning drugs don't change the rate of abuse, and there are studies showing that.

Prohibition, for example, had people switching to harder liqueurs rather than wines and beers, with a resulting increase in problems.  Due to the illegality, there were also problems with quality control - moonshine was often contaminated with lead or methanol due to improper distilling.

So banning a drug tends to lead to riskier usage of it, not necessarily a decrease in usage.

You still haven't answered my point though about the probable increase in the safety of said drugs due to government regulation.

Matt King

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Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #131 on: January 11, 2008, 04:00:51 PM »
Out of every X number of responsible users of whatever, a certain number will end up abusing it.  This is just a certainty.  So if you increase the number of users you will end up increasing the number of abusers as well.

Same argument could be made against guns. Are you in favor of prohibiting guns, just because some people misuse them?

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Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #132 on: January 11, 2008, 04:24:59 PM »
We have a faulty premise in one of the ongoing objections to the legalization of mary janes.

"How is increased drug use good for (society)?" 

There has been no evidence presented that use will increase with legalization. 
We have seen evidence (Austrailia; US Alcohol prohibition) of the converse, that use will DECREASE with legalization.

In my experience, (vast, I assure you) people are drawn into the drug culture IN PART because of an anti-establishment "rebel" streak.  Take that aspect out of it, and I put forth that there will be fewer new users.

Legalization will free up a ton of coin that is being used to chase potheads through the fields and meadows.  I see regular DEA helicopter patrols flying (green 'copters, btw) patterns over the river flats looking for the magic garden.  A Huey needs a lot of petrol to fly.


Therefore, legalization will not increase consumption of street reefer (in long term, 5 years, say) and will in the long run be good for society and the economy.

Continue among yourselves, I've got to get back to work. grin
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Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #133 on: January 11, 2008, 07:08:52 PM »
If MJ becomes legal, I expect to rush out and smoke so much MJ it will make the "History of the World Part One" toke rolled by Gregory Hines look lilliputian in contrast.

I hope to get hopelessly hooked and spend my days like the Brad Pitt character, Floyd, in the movie "True Romance."

Or, maybe not, since making it legal will not increase its availability to me to any significant degree & I haven't taken up the habit.

I guess the only way I'd use MJ on a regular basis is if I were taking chemo for cancer or some such.  My WWII veteran, Purple Heart-earning grandfather smoked his first wacky tobaccy that way at the tender age of 63, after a diagnosis of colon cancer.  (God bless the MJ-smoking neighbor who squared him away.)
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #134 on: January 11, 2008, 07:57:46 PM »
Out of every X number of responsible users of whatever, a certain number will end up abusing it.  This is just a certainty.  So if you increase the number of users you will end up increasing the number of abusers as well.

Same argument could be made against guns.


Not really.  Think about it.  You'll figure it out.
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stevelyn

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Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #135 on: January 12, 2008, 05:31:14 AM »
Only if those who choose to use it are ineligible for welfare or any federal assistance.

I don't want my tax dollars going to support those who choose to burn out their own brains and then expect they can lie around on the public dole.

Not only that, but all safety nets should be removed so those who abuse can't become a burden on society.

OD or end up with health problems related to drug use and no medical insurance? Sucks to be you. Off to the soylent green pile with you.
Those who abuse will be burdens on society one way or another.  Drug addicts lose the ability to work, thus their ability to earn money.  But they dont lose their penchant for drugs.  Where will they turn?  Hmmm.  Let's think about that one.
Remind me again why increasing drug usage will be good for this country?
  Do you have any statistics that show increased usage will happen if legaliation happens?  I dont think you know to much about marijuana.  Many people use it and seem to be doing ok. 

You are assuming that if you use it once, you will become a pot-crazed addict that will be a burden on society.  Is alcohol the same to you?

How many people drank occassionally in college?  In the military?  Are they suddenly a burden to society?  Cannot marijuana be used recreationally?

Tecumseh, I'm agreeing with you. I don't see legalization causing an increase in drug usage in society. Those with the propensity to do so, already do and will. Those who don't, don't use them now and won't start because of a change in the legal status of some drugs.

I'm just saying if you make bad life choices and fall into a cycle of drug abuse and addiction that the Darwin factor should be in effect and we shouldn't bother rescuing someone from what they've brought on themselves.
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #136 on: January 12, 2008, 06:12:56 AM »
Hehehe.

Druggies will not just keel over in the ditch and decompose quietly into useful compost for the libertarian garden-of-eden. No, their numbers will increase and they will be a burden on society through criminality, accidents, and loss of productivity, even if somehow you manage to keep them from unionizing and electing their own candidates.

Just take a walk down the city street and count the stupid, weak, irresponsible people you can identify. If hard drugs become easily accessible, how many of them will succumb? Of course the number of druggies will increase.

The bottom line is that life is hard and people need an outlet or escape. Self-respect and discipline keep reasonable people on track, no matter if drugs are easily available or not. But many if not most people lack both the self-respect and discipline, so they will easily succumb to chemical escapism. You do not believe that this is so? Read up on the opium problem in China, as Rabbi suggested.

InfidelSerf

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Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #137 on: January 12, 2008, 03:29:48 PM »
Quote
If hard drugs become easily accessible,
what do you mean IF??
The problem is not the accessibility of the drugs, the problem is the same one I have for feeding my addiction to motorcycles, or computers,
or GUNS!  It's a lack of money that is the only problem I ever face.

I'm highly addicted to the adrenaline rush I get from a good 70mph roll-on, or a 2nd gear standing wheelie.
It's my own will power and character that prevents me from "jacking" some other person's bike to go get that rush on.

I'm also very much addicted to squeezing a trigger sending $10 then $20, then $30 worth of lead down range.
But it's my own will power and character that prevents me from breaking into a neighbors house to steal enough money to by the next box of WWB to support my habit.
Quote
Just take a walk down the city street and count the stupid, weak, irresponsible people you can identify.
Plenty, and they all have different reasons for being week and irresponsible. 
Toss them the keys to a new Ferrari and see how long before its another entry on http://www.wreckedexotics.com/

Quote
The bottom line is that life is hard and people need an outlet or escape.
AMEN brother.
Most of the time I choose a beer and a little boobtube veg time.
Or when I can afford it a trip to the local range to give me an excuse to spend another hour or so cleaning.
Or when I eventually have the funds to complete her budget, I'll be twisting my wrist and having a blast.


I guess I don't see drugs as the evil just as I don't see guns or cars as the evil.
The "evil" only takes place between two human ears.

Those of us on this forum right now that have ever "partook" or ever thought about trying cannibus. Would never in the furthest reaches of our minds consider knocking off a quickie mart to go buy a bag just because we didn't have $20 in our pocket.
We might be human, and allow our better judgment to subside and it could cost us a job, who knows.  But we all engage in that strange and irreverent practice known as common sense.
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The Rabbi

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Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #138 on: January 12, 2008, 03:57:28 PM »
We have a faulty premise in one of the ongoing objections to the legalization of mary janes.

"How is increased drug use good for (society)?" 

There has been no evidence presented that use will increase with legalization. 
We have seen evidence (Austrailia; US Alcohol prohibition) of the converse, that use will DECREASE with legalization.

In my experience, (vast, I assure you) people are drawn into the drug culture IN PART because of an anti-establishment "rebel" streak.  Take that aspect out of it, and I put forth that there will be fewer new users.

Legalization will free up a ton of coin that is being used to chase potheads through the fields and meadows.  I see regular DEA helicopter patrols flying (green 'copters, btw) patterns over the river flats looking for the magic garden.  A Huey needs a lot of petrol to fly.


Therefore, legalization will not increase consumption of street reefer (in long term, 5 years, say) and will in the long run be good for society and the economy.

Continue among yourselves, I've got to get back to work. grin
Positing that legalization with easier access to safe and easily identifiable drugs will decrease use flies in the face of economic theory.  Sorry not to bow to your "vast" experience.
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De Selby

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Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #139 on: January 12, 2008, 04:20:21 PM »
The real issue isn't how much more use there will be of marijuana once it's legal; of course there will be more, and we already have a good idea of what the costs of increased marijuana use will be.  It's a well understood drug with well understood effects on behavior.

The better question to ask is "What could we do with the money we now spend on enforcing marijuana prohibition?"

Money that is now used for marijuana prohibition can be used to take care of more serious drug and alcohol problems.  If you do that, then accepting the increased costs of marijuana being legalized is a pretty good bargain.
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The Rabbi

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Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #140 on: January 12, 2008, 04:32:56 PM »
The real issue isn't how much more use there will be of marijuana once it's legal; of course there will be more, and we already have a good idea of what the costs of increased marijuana use will be.  It's a well understood drug with well understood effects on behavior.

The better question to ask is "What could we do with the money we now spend on enforcing marijuana prohibition?"

Money that is now used for marijuana prohibition can be used to take care of more serious drug and alcohol problems.  If you do that, then accepting the increased costs of marijuana being legalized is a pretty good bargain.

At last, a reasonable response.
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Firethorn

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Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #141 on: January 12, 2008, 04:38:01 PM »
Druggies will not just keel over in the ditch and decompose quietly into useful compost for the libertarian garden-of-eden. No, their numbers will increase and they will be a burden on society through criminality, accidents, and loss of productivity, even if somehow you manage to keep them from unionizing and electing their own candidates.

Studies of other countries and our own history shows that they don't significantly increase in numbers, and we already have problems with criminality, accidents and productivity loss from their legal and illegal use.  Alcohol and tobacco already suck a lot of productivity, cause accidents(vehicular and fire), and people steal and commit crimes to get them.

Quote
Just take a walk down the city street and count the stupid, weak, irresponsible people you can identify. If hard drugs become easily accessible, how many of them will succumb? Of course the number of druggies will increase.

I'd ask: How many would already fail a piss test?  Probably many or most of them.  More than 50% of High School Seniors in NORTH DAKOTA admitted to at least trying MJ.  It was actually higher than the rate for alcohol and tobacco.

Quote
The bottom line is that life is hard and people need an outlet or escape. Self-respect and discipline keep reasonable people on track, no matter if drugs are easily available or not. But many if not most people lack both the self-respect and discipline, so they will easily succumb to chemical escapism. You do not believe that this is so? Read up on the opium problem in China, as Rabbi suggested.

I'd suggest reading up on Europe's experiences on legalization/decriminalization as a counterpoint.

Quote
Positing that legalization with easier access to safe and easily identifiable drugs will decrease use flies in the face of economic theory.  Sorry not to bow to your "vast" experience.

He was talking abut psychological reasons, not economic ones.  Economically speaking, the black market seems perfectly capable of supplying drugs at affordable prices already.  The question becomes one of how elastic recreational drugs are in response to price changes.

We're arguing that it's actually very inelastic - users are willing to spend huge amounts of money/effort to get their drugs, yet usage wouldn't necessarily jump outrageously if it becomes cheaper.  Users will keep using despite price variations, and non-users won't start using just because it's cheaper.

I'm not arguing that drug use isn't bad - just that our 'solution' is worse than the problem, especially given that it isn't working at stopping drug use.  I'm watching COPS at the moment, and they're busting people with drugs left and right.

edit- The Rabbi, that's pretty much what I've been arguing.  Legalize it, tax it, and use the funds saved from law enforcement and the additional tax revenues to fund treatment centers.  Unspoken - but you could also run anti-drug campaigns to change the culture away from drug use. 

Oh yeah - they just busted a guy with a rifle stuffed down his pants.  That's interesting.

brer

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Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #142 on: January 12, 2008, 05:13:33 PM »
Hmm

The War on drugs, being fought as we know it in its current form since the early eighties. Currently still being won by people on drugs.

Look up the definition of insanity sometime.  Something about doing the same thing time after time and expecting different results.

Time to give the war on drugs a rest and lets get our civil liberties back.

wooderson

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Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #143 on: January 12, 2008, 05:37:41 PM »
Quote
Positing that legalization with easier access to safe and easily identifiable drugs will decrease use flies in the face of economic theory.

When it's a battle between theory and reality... I usually trust reality.
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The Rabbi

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Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #144 on: January 12, 2008, 05:49:57 PM »
Quote
Positing that legalization with easier access to safe and easily identifiable drugs will decrease use flies in the face of economic theory.

When it's a battle between theory and reality... I usually trust reality.
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Tecumseh

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Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #145 on: January 12, 2008, 09:13:21 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwDRBm-qbQI is a humrous take on it.  Beware there is a bad word in there but it is very hard to understand.  It is almost inaudible. 

I will remove if someone takes offense.

CAnnoneer

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Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #146 on: January 13, 2008, 07:24:04 AM »
You'll always get skewed conclusions if you compare the worst of one group with the mildest of another.  rolleyes

zahc

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Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #147 on: January 13, 2008, 07:52:45 AM »
If machine guns were made legal again, machine gun ownership would skyrocket!
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The Rabbi

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Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #148 on: January 13, 2008, 08:02:23 AM »
If machine guns were made legal again, machine gun ownership would skyrocket!

If almost anything which is currently highly taxed and/or regulated and/or forbidden were suddenly to become cheap and available its use would skyrocket.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.
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zahc

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Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #149 on: January 13, 2008, 08:10:16 AM »
Indeed. Both the machine gun advocates, and the MJ advocates obviously want there respective forbidden fruit legalized for the same reason. I don't see why it's a bad thing in either (or any) case.
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