Author Topic: Should Marijuana be legal?  (Read 54670 times)

Tecumseh

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 729
Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #100 on: January 11, 2008, 08:36:56 AM »
Only if those who choose to use it are ineligible for welfare or any federal assistance.

I don't want my tax dollars going to support those who choose to burn out their own brains and then expect they can lie around on the public dole.

Not only that, but all safety nets should be removed so those who abuse can't become a burden on society.

OD or end up with health problems related to drug use and no medical insurance? Sucks to be you. Off to the soylent green pile with you.
Those who abuse will be burdens on society one way or another.  Drug addicts lose the ability to work, thus their ability to earn money.  But they dont lose their penchant for drugs.  Where will they turn?  Hmmm.  Let's think about that one.
Remind me again why increasing drug usage will be good for this country?
  Do you have any statistics that show increased usage will happen if legaliation happens?  I dont think you know to much about marijuana.  Many people use it and seem to be doing ok. 

You are assuming that if you use it once, you will become a pot-crazed addict that will be a burden on society.  Is alcohol the same to you?

How many people drank occassionally in college?  In the military?  Are they suddenly a burden to society?  Cannot marijuana be used recreationally?

Tecumseh

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 729
Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #101 on: January 11, 2008, 08:38:51 AM »
I finished reading a book on the Opium Wars not too long ago.  China had a terrible drug problem in the 19th century, largely fostered by the British for complex economic reasons.  Interestingly the arguments between them sounded like today.
Anyway, the society was falling apart.  Generals were too stoned to make good decisions.  Even the Imperial court was affected.
When Mao came to power he eradicated it.  Every addict was offered state of the art treatment the first time.  The second time they were thrown in jail.  Dealers were summarily executed.
It worked.
We need to try that here.

Certainly.  We can start with alcohol.  Drunks barely function in society, if at all.  Alcohol related auto accidents are epidemic.  Alcohol is the root of many evils on college campuses and economically depressed areas.

All I want is some consistency.  During the course of my life, I've known probably 5 serious drunks for every serious user of illicit drugs (maybe more, those are just the ones that don't try to hide it).  The only real difference is that society accepted the drunk and even gave them pass with a wink and a nod.  It doesn't matter which drug you use, if it affects your professional and personal life, you should rethink your involvement with it.  If it doesn't interfere with work and home life, what does the manner of consumption matter?

Chris
Don't forget the most popular of American drugs... caffeine.  We should ban it so America can rise to greatness once again. Right Rabbi?

Tecumseh

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 729
Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #102 on: January 11, 2008, 08:39:43 AM »
All I want is some consistency. 

Consistency only makes sense when the level of impairment and the social costs are comparable. Many more people drink than use drugs, and for the most part, they are not a social problem. Only a few hardest cases, true alcoholics, can compare to what hard drugs do in short order. The distribution is very different among druggies - hard drug users are overwhelmingly impaired and a much larger social burden; most cannot function normally in society at all.

Consistency in treatment of a pea-shooter and a howitzer does not make practical sense.

True, but this discussion was supposed to be about marijuana.  Not other drugs.

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #103 on: January 11, 2008, 09:29:14 AM »
Ah, but that's the rub, isn't it? Druggies will inevitably be a burden on society. You cannot remove all safety nets because there are plenty of non-users who will scream their lungs out about "fairness", "compassion", "humane treatment", etc. It is politically impossible to push something through when the socialists and the religious join on a certain issue. And complete legalization is bound to increase the number of druggies, at least in the first decade or so.

There's a difference between 'druggies' and 'drug users'.  Actually, thinking about it, I'd say there's four classes:
Non-Users - Can be a drain on society, but odds are low
Users - Still not a problem
Functional Addicts - As long as they can get their drug they're functional.  Almost like a diabetic and insulin.
Nonfunctional addicts - a definite drain on society, and they want their drugs, but can't support themselves and their habit.

Going by historical data, the nonfunctional addict, IE 'druggie' rate has remained pretty much constant through prohibition and the WoD.  So it's actually fairly unlikely that legalization would result in an explosion of druggies - especially for something like MJ.

Quote
Also, consider the effects on criminality. Now you have more druggies trying to get their fix. Yes, the drugs are available and probably far cheaper, but when they quit their jobs over drugs, who will pay for their living and habit? So, criminality increases. The common citizen will feel the pinch.

They get caught and thrown in a drug-free jail to detox.  Just like drunks who commit crimes to get their fix.  Don't want to detox the hard way?  Either keep your job(or any job) and do it legally or check yourself into a treatment clinic.

Quote
You simultaneously have to remove all restrictions on gun carry (a good thing) but will end up with a society where druggies and armed citizens shoot it out in the streets far more often than now. That will mean that a bunch of laws about justifiable homicide will have to be changed as well, the bottom line being much higher mortality among druggies (probably a good thing) but also among civilians (a bad thing). Then again you hit the above argument about bleeding hearts, and you end up back at square one.

Other areas have legalized drugs and found that the rate doesn't increase?  Amsterdam is an exemption because it was a ghettoization of drug legality - users and addicts migrated there, artificially raising the concentration.

Quote
That's why a compromise is probably better - the division between soft and hard drugs. Soft drugs legalization will empty a lot of space in our legal system and prisons as well, when a bunch of local yokels do not get thrown in jail over a bag of grass.

How do you define 'soft' vs 'hard'?  Alcohol, by most definitions, would end up in the hard category, while tobacco is one of the most addictive drugs out there.  While I support full legalization of all the stuff, I wouldn't mind a gradual legalization process.

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #104 on: January 11, 2008, 09:35:01 AM »
Remind me again why increasing drug usage will be good for this country?

For the sake of argument, we'll say it won't be good for this country.  What's your point?
Why would someone support legislation that will have a bad effect on the country?  Not that it might or that the law of unintended consequences comes into play, but legislation designed expressly to make things worse?
Geez, the arguments here get freakier as time goes by.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #105 on: January 11, 2008, 09:36:00 AM »


[/quote]
Don't forget the most popular of American drugs... caffeine.  We should ban it so America can rise to greatness once again. Right Rabbi?
[/quote]
Yes, see how many neighborhoods have been blighted by Starbucks. rolleyes
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,745
Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #106 on: January 11, 2008, 09:42:01 AM »
You guys do realize that the biggest recipient of the government dollar is...
[...]
children. 

I often ask myself, what would 'lil Baby Jesus do?  Feed the kids?  Let them starve?  Hmm...
Through miracles and resources under his control, or through bloated, festering, inefficient government agencies rife with corruption utilizing confiscated money taken at gunpoint?
Hmm....

Because only the government can feed the needy, and even if someone else could do it, only the government could do it well.  Right?
  I just wanted to point out that the majority of people on the government dole are children.  Facts can only help the discussion.  I agree very much that others can do a better job, but I wanted to more information to the discussion.
No, that is not correct.  The Children don't get a dime.  Either parents get it or some sort of foster care.  That is like assuming that 100% of child support paid gets used "for the child".  I know some divorced men who would laugh at that. 

And when you say Govt dollar, you really need to be realistic and say Govt quarter. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Glock Glockler

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 182
Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #107 on: January 11, 2008, 09:55:05 AM »
Remind me again why increasing drug usage will be good for this country?

I dont think anyone here is supporting drug misuse or abuse, but nice attempt at a straw-man.



The burden of proof is on you to convince me why locking people up for using drug X is good for the country.

The act of using drugs does not produce any victim; no ones rights are infringed upon, so why send them to jail?


Tecumseh

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 729
Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #108 on: January 11, 2008, 10:18:03 AM »
Rabbi:  Are you a collectivist?  Who cares what is better for America?  Why not ban guns?  If nobody had guns then their would be no crime, right?

Werewolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,126
  • Lead, Follow or Get the HELL out of the WAY!
Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #109 on: January 11, 2008, 10:22:53 AM »
Quote
If someone can present a compelling argument why increased narcotic use is good for this country, without mentioning alcohol or tobacco, I would concede the point.

Assuming (and this is a really pie in the sky assumption) that we can avoid having to support with public money those that can't handle it, I imagine that legalizing marijuana would result in a medium to long term CLEANSING of the GENE pool.
Life is short, Break the rules, Forgive quickly, Kiss slowly, Love
truly, Laugh uncontrollably, And never regret anything that made you smile.

Fight Me Online

Tecumseh

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 729
Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #110 on: January 11, 2008, 10:27:15 AM »
Quote
If someone can present a compelling argument why increased narcotic use is good for this country, without mentioning alcohol or tobacco, I would concede the point.

Assuming (and this is a really pie in the sky assumption) that we can avoid having to support with public money those that can't handle it, I imagine that legalizing marijuana would result in a medium to long term CLEANSING of the GENE pool.

Just like alcohol...

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #111 on: January 11, 2008, 10:29:28 AM »
Rabbi:  Are you a collectivist?  Who cares what is better for America?  Why not ban guns?  If nobody had guns then their would be no crime, right?
Who cares?
Anyone who lives, works, or votes here.  If you don't do any of those things then it shouldn't matter to you.
Are you a narcissist?  Do you think only you and your freedoms and comfort matter?
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

Tecumseh

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 729
Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #112 on: January 11, 2008, 10:30:23 AM »
Rabbi:  Are sugar filled sweets good for the country?  What about Transfat?  Not to mention High-fructose corn syrup?  Should we ban it?  There is no precedent in history for it.

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #113 on: January 11, 2008, 10:33:53 AM »
Rabbi:  Are sugar filled sweets good for the country?  What about Transfat?  Not to mention High-fructose corn syrup?  Should we ban it?  There is no precedent in history for it.
Are you honestly using a slippery-slope fallacy to make your argument?  You aren't getting far with that one.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

longrifleman

  • New Member
  • Posts: 12
Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #114 on: January 11, 2008, 10:35:18 AM »
Quote
Remind me again why increasing drug usage will be good for this country?

The original question wasn't "increasing drug use", it was legalizing use.  Two different things, althought the attempt to twist the debate is fairly clever. grin

Any social policy will have trade-offs that will probably allow some bad effects, and drug prohibition is certainally one of them. The infringement on personal freedom because of the drug war is one of those bad effects that many people seem to accept. At one time, I did myself.

Now it is time to examine the policy and see if it has achieved it's goals.

Pretty much any drug you want is available in any good sized city and most podunk wide spots in the road too.

Failure.

Increased costs, to reduce use, due to interdicition efforts ?

Failure.

Reduce use by draconian enforcement, ie make examples of users/dealers?

Probable failure. Enforcement probably does reduce use somewhat. So the actual potential success is the difference in use between the current rate and the increased rate after legalization. For that we are spending literally billions of dollars and attacking the foundations of the individual rights this country is supposed to be about.

Eliminate harm to the individuals that use them?

Failure. Actually, double failure. In addition to the harm of the drugs themselves, we give the users criminal records that will follow them the rest of their lives. Instead of drugs being one of those stupid things most people would grow out of, we use them to ruin their lives forever. How exactly is that suppose to help people again?

Give the state an excuse to exercise more power and control over the pesants?

Success.




BrokenPaw

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,674
  • Sedit qvi timvit ne non svccederet.
    • ShadowGrove Interpath Ministry
Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #115 on: January 11, 2008, 11:00:06 AM »
Rabbi:  Are sugar filled sweets good for the country?  What about Transfat?  Not to mention High-fructose corn syrup?  Should we ban it?  There is no precedent in history for it.
Are you honestly using a slippery-slope fallacy to make your argument?  You aren't getting far with that one.

This from the man who was claiming that by legalizing pot, we would be ushering in an age of mass drug abuse and the ultimate dissolution of productive society.  A slippery slope argument, indeed.

You fail.

-BP
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

mtnbkr

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,388
Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #116 on: January 11, 2008, 11:14:39 AM »
Are you a narcissist?  Do you think only you and your freedoms and comfort matter?

I know you weren't addressing me, but I'll respond anyway...

Nope.  Considering I do not use, nor desire to use mood alterning drugs, my argument in favor of legalization stems from my belief that it is none of the govt's business what substances I use as long as I do not become a burden to society or a criminal. 

Chris

Werewolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,126
  • Lead, Follow or Get the HELL out of the WAY!
Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #117 on: January 11, 2008, 11:38:17 AM »
Quote
If someone can present a compelling argument why increased narcotic use is good for this country, without mentioning alcohol or tobacco, I would concede the point.

Assuming (and this is a really pie in the sky assumption) that we can avoid having to support with public money those that can't handle it, I imagine that legalizing marijuana would result in a medium to long term CLEANSING of the GENE pool.

Just like alcohol...

Exactly! And you can add Tobacco to that also - but I anticipated that if I had mentioned A&T Rabbi would have come back with his stipulation that alcohol and tobacco not be mentioned...  grin
Life is short, Break the rules, Forgive quickly, Kiss slowly, Love
truly, Laugh uncontrollably, And never regret anything that made you smile.

Fight Me Online

wooderson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #118 on: January 11, 2008, 11:53:41 AM »
Quote
Drug addicts lose the ability to work, thus their ability to earn money.  But they dont lose their penchant for drugs.

I can't tell if you're intellectually dishonest, or if you really think that marijuana and crystal meth have the same personal and social effects.

Quote
I finished reading a book on the Opium Wars not too long ago.  China had a terrible drug problem in the 19th century, largely fostered by the British for complex economic reasons.  Interestingly the arguments between them sounded like today.
Anyway, the society was falling apart.  Generals were too stoned to make good decisions.

You realize that marijuana and opium are different substances, right?


"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #119 on: January 11, 2008, 11:57:42 AM »
Rabbi:  Are sugar filled sweets good for the country?  What about Transfat?  Not to mention High-fructose corn syrup?  Should we ban it?  There is no precedent in history for it.
Are you honestly using a slippery-slope fallacy to make your argument?  You aren't getting far with that one.

This from the man who was claiming that by legalizing pot, we would be ushering in an age of mass drug abuse and the ultimate dissolution of productive society.  A slippery slope argument, indeed.

You fail.

-BP
I said no such thing.
And you havent answered the objection that your point is simply a slippery slope fallacy.
Nor have you answered why increasing drug usage is good for the country or good policy.
And there can be no debate that drug use will increase with legalization, otherwise you are positing that laws have zero effect on human behavior.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

Strings

  • Guest
Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #120 on: January 11, 2008, 12:14:37 PM »
Rabbi, the only real effect that the Wo(S)D has really had is on our civil liberties: the stuff is still VERY available.

 I don't think anyone will argue that "use" won't increase a bit: there is a segment of society that doesn't use simply because it's illegal. But you're equating "use" with "abuse", and that's two different animals...

 Yes, all abusers are users, but not all users are abusers (and that's for ANY substance that alters the mind in any way).

 To use your logic, all guns SHOULD be banned, because gun owners are violent killers.

 Yes, everyone who has committed a violent crime with a gun is a "gun owner", but not every gun owner has committed a violent crime.


 You raise hell about others making a slippery slope argument, but do the same yourself. Pot, meet Kettle

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #121 on: January 11, 2008, 12:16:40 PM »
Out of every X number of responsible users of whatever, a certain number will end up abusing it.  This is just a certainty.  So if you increase the number of users you will end up increasing the number of abusers as well.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

wooderson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #122 on: January 11, 2008, 12:18:21 PM »
Can you answer either of my questions on your treatment of marijuana, opium and 'harder' drugs?
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #123 on: January 11, 2008, 01:02:28 PM »
And there can be no debate that drug use will increase with legalization, otherwise you are positing that laws have zero effect on human behavior.

I suggest you look back to my previous post, where I point out that it can be debated.  There are a number of sources where drugs have been legalized and drug use hasen't increased.

Of course, I provided sources, but didn't see a response from you.

Out of every X number of responsible users of whatever, a certain number will end up abusing it.  This is just a certainty.  So if you increase the number of users you will end up increasing the number of abusers as well.

Actually, discounting the feds current 'any use is abuse' policy, about the same percentage of the population abuse drugs no matter the legality.  And it's the abusers, not the users that we have to worry about.  So no, increasing the number of users won't automatically increase the numbers of abusers.

As others have pointed out, our WoD hasn't managed to remove availability.  Heck, over 50% of high school studends in NORTH DAKOTA have admitted to at least trying MJ, actually a higher rate than admitted to smoking or drinking.

So keeping it illegal isn't reducing usage, it's not increasing safety, it's not working.  It's a gripping hand thing - by trying to ban it, it slips through the government's control.  Legalize it and the feds would actually be able to control and regulate it more - and turn millions of dollars of law enforcement costs into millions of dollars of revenue.

As I mentioned, I'm not a user either.  I don't drink, smoke, or do anything illegal.  About all I take is the occasional allergy/cold tablet and pepto for an upset stomach.

Glock Glockler

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 182
Re: Should Marijuana be legal?
« Reply #124 on: January 11, 2008, 01:11:21 PM »
Drug addicts lose the ability to work, thus their ability to earn money.  But they dont lose their penchant for drugs.  Where will they turn?

Well, right now we lock them up, good thing the taxpayer doesn't have to support them while they're in jail and not working.  This really is the best thing though, everyone knows that if once someone smokes pot they are incapable of employment., it's probably also a myth that many high-powered lawyers, stock brokers, and other people making serious bank never use cocaine.