Papers please! Chertoff tries again...

[Manedwolf]

Thankfully, NH has already outlawed any compliance with RealID. This thing...I'd give it a week before it's hacked, probably by low-paid bureaucrats inside who get offers from terrorists/druglords, and fake realIDs are on the world market.

The bit about not being able to board a commercial airliner without one, I love that.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. officials said they would unveil on Friday reasonable and inexpensive national requirements to implement an identification-card program critics call a costly invasion of privacy.

The program, called Real ID, has been rejected by 17 states based on draft regulations. U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said he would announce on Friday revised rules that reflect state concerns.

"We have worked very closely with the states in terms of developing a plan that I think will be quite inexpensive, reasonable to implement and produce ... secure identification when drivers' licenses are presented," Chertoff said on Thursday to a panel of outside advisers to his department.

He gave no details, and the American Civil Liberties Union, which has sharply criticized the draft program, said it had no information on any revisions.

The U.S. Congress in 2005 passed a law calling for the national digital identification system. It is intended as a post-September 11 security measure to make more secure the state-issued driver's licenses that are a ubiquitous form of identification in the United States.

The licenses will be required for boarding a commercial flight and entering a federal facility or a nuclear power plant.

Under the program, states would be required to verify documents presented with license applications and to link their license databases into a national electronic network.

Critics say the program will amount to a national identification card -- which Americans have long opposed as a symbol of an overly powerful federal government -- and that the national network could compromise the privacy of the ID-card holders.

States have objected because they would bear the costs to implement the program.

Some 227 million people hold drivers' licenses or identity cards given out by U.S. states, which issue or renew about 70 million each year.

States are intended to begin issuing the new licenses by May of this year, but the Homeland Security Department says they will be able to file for an extension. Individuals are required to carry cards meeting the new standards by May 2013.

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN1022357520080110

[CAnnoneer]

I still have to be convinced about what is so horrible about a national ID card. I already have a CA driver's license and a US passport.

[Paddy]

I still have to be convinced about what is so horrible about a national ID card. I already have a CA driver's license and a US passport.

A national ID card will probably have a hidden electronic chip that talks to the satellite and records everything we do and say.

[Manedwolf]

I still have to be convinced about what is so horrible about a national ID card. I already have a CA driver's license and a US passport.

Well. You live in California. I live in New Hampshire. As Twain said through Huck Finn, "There's some people, that if they don't already know, you just can't tell them."

Ask the British. Did you miss that bit about the government losing disks containing all the personal data on 25 million people last year?

And if there's an issue with your ID, right now, you can go to the local DMV, which is enough of a headache. Do you want to have to write to (email? no, no, LETTER) to someone in D.C. and not get an answer, maybe a form letter for the wrong problem six months later?

Some minor functionary edited the wrong cell on an ancient spreadsheet on a beigebox in a cubefarm, and doesn't care, because it's time to go home. As a result, you're now unable to fly, sorry, you get stopped at checkin as a Threat. How long will that take to get fixed?

That, and ID theft will happen...oh, it will happen. And it will be a lot worse if your RealID is stolen, likely via, as I said, insiders selling data and "legit fake" copies to third parties.. Just TRY to get that fixed quickly. Good luck getting to travel or getting a loan or getting, well...anything in the meantime.

Oh, and if someone does something naughty with your copied ID, the next time you get stopped for a minor traffic infraction..."Why, why is Mister Officer bellowing at me to get out of the car and get on the ground? Don't taze me! Hey!"

The bigger goverment gets, the further away you are from the things controlling your life, the more screwed up things can be.

[longrifleman]

I still have to be convinced about what is so horrible about a national ID card. I already have a CA driver's license and a US passport.

I work for the Fed Govt. Trust me, Manedwolf's description is too optomistic. The software for anything like this will be complex and the Fed IT folks don't do complex. Any systems we use are always obsolete and written by the drunken monkeys that Century fired for incompentence.

Check out the current story about the FBI not paying their phone bills for authorized wiretaps because their accounting systems weren't up to the level of Quicken. Are you sure you want us Feds to have more power to make your life HELL ON EARTH?

[K Frame]

"Ask the British. Did you miss that bit about the government losing disks containing all the personal data on 25 million people last year?"

Been there, done that already, with the Veteran's Administration and the IRS.

[Finch]

Been there, done that already, with the Veteran's Administration and the IRS.

And there is also the TSA who lost a portable hard containing the names, addresses, ss numbers, and bank routing info of 100,000 employees. What kind of idiots put that kind of information on a portable hard drive?

[longrifleman]

What kind of idiots put that kind of information on a portable hard drive?

drunken monkeys that Century fired for incompentence.

[Fly320s]

What is the point of a national ID anyway?  We already have all the ID we need in the form of state-issued driver's licenses and US-issued passports.  Both of those can be forged, along with every other official document.  The new ID will be the same, so what do the Federales gain?

[Warren]

Is there any benefit, at all, of having gov issued ID? For those that work for or are are supported by the beast, sure. But the rest of us?

[The Rabbi]

Is there any benefit, at all, of having gov issued ID? For those that work for or are are supported by the beast, sure. But the rest of us?

It will make it easier to identify and deport illegal aliens.  I think that may even be one of the stated benefits of the program.
So who is going to oppose it now?

[Manedwolf]

Is there any benefit, at all, of having gov issued ID? For those that work for or are are supported by the beast, sure. But the rest of us?

It will make it easier to identify and deport illegal aliens.  I think that may even be one of the stated benefits of the program.
So who is going to oppose it now?

Yeah, they'll just steal RealIDs like they steal social security numbers, drivers' licenses and other ID now. Low-paid government functionaries will be recruited by associates of the coyotes to provide the package deal "real" fake IDs from within.

Or errors will be made, because .gov bureaucrats DON'T CARE and use lowest-bidder software.

And then the person whose RealID is doubled or copied or otherwise stolen, or who has an error on their record will be in for Bureaucratic Hell trying to get it corrected, meanwhile, their life will be ruined.

The way to deal with illegals is a FENCE with and IMMEDIATE DEPORTATION, and if they come back again, FEDERAL PRISON. And loss of business license for anyone who knowingly hires illegals. (I know you'll object to that one, Rabbi.) Period.

When has increasing the size of big-government efforts performed by bureaucrats ever helped solve anything?

[The Rabbi]

So you dont trust the .gov to administer a program of real ID but you do trust them to administer a program to harass legitimate business owners?

[InfidelSerf]

My problem with the realID act is the language that places checkpoints at state borders.
Yet another instance where the fed strongarms state authorities into compliance.

And the primary problem I have with it, is the fact that once it's set up certain demands will be placed on us all.
Such as: you will not be able to open a bank account, drive on the public roads, purchase certain age restricted items,
fly anywhere within the nations borders, enter government buildings, obtain a job, make any digital purchase, or travel freely between the states.
Unless you posses the federally designed realID.

Where that really poses a problem are with states like Missouri, Montana and New Hampshire et al.  Who have specifically drafted legislation opposing such measures.
Language within the bill states that if I live in a state that has objected to such ID, I would be prohibited from visiting a state that decided to fully comply.
So I would not be able to travel 8 miles to the west and cross the KS border to visit family.  As long as I refused to accept the ID and MO still held out.

Any bill that makes natural born citizens enemies of the state simply for existing is tyranny in my mind.

What if my religious beliefs have me convinced that this would be the essence of the mark of the beast, would that not be a violation of my 1st amend. rights?

Real the entire bill, it's much more ominous that you could imagine.

Do we really want to go the way of tyrannical governments of histories past and have checkpoints at every state border.
"Paper's Please"

Sorry I would rather allow bands of evil men who wish to kill us all freely roaming the country, than limit our liberty in yet another drastic measure disguised as a measure of security.  Leave us all free men and I guarantee you terrorist cells will not survive.  Threat us all like criminals and trap us all in a police state and the terrorist cells will only live on with impunity.

[Manedwolf]

So you dont trust the .gov to administer a program of real ID but you do trust them to administer a program to harass legitimate business owners?

If they knowingly hire illegals, they're not legitimate, they're aiding and abetting criminals.

See, I knew you would object to that. Wonder why!

[De Selby]

So you dont trust the .gov to administer a program of real ID but you do trust them to administer a program to harass legitimate business owners?

If they knowingly hire illegals, they're not legitimate, they're aiding and abetting criminals.

See, I knew you would object to that. Wonder why!

I see that you didn't answer his question.

[The Rabbi]

So you dont trust the .gov to administer a program of real ID but you do trust them to administer a program to harass legitimate business owners?

If they knowingly hire illegals, they're not legitimate, they're aiding and abetting criminals.

See, I knew you would object to that. Wonder why!

I see that you didn't answer his question.

Thats because he has no answer.  The businesses are legitimate in any case, as long as they are not engaging in illegal behavior, e.g. drug running.  The fact that they hire illegals, eitehr knowingly or unknowingly, is irrelevant to their status as legitimate.
It is always easier to put the burden on other people than to accept responsibility for oneself.

[Manedwolf]

So you dont trust the .gov to administer a program of real ID but you do trust them to administer a program to harass legitimate business owners?

If they knowingly hire illegals, they're not legitimate, they're aiding and abetting criminals.

See, I knew you would object to that. Wonder why!

I see that you didn't answer his question.

Thats because he has no answer.  The businesses are legitimate in any case, as long as they are not engaging in illegal behavior, e.g. drug running.  The fact that they hire illegals, eitehr knowingly or unknowingly, is irrelevant to their status as legitimate.
It is always easier to put the burden on other people than to accept responsibility for oneself.

If a business knowingly hires an illegal alien, they're aiding and abetting a criminal, the illegal alien. What part of that do you not understand.

Makes me wonder if they started prosecuting and imprisioning business owners for that, if you'd vanish. DO you hire illegals? I really have to wonder, with how defensive you are about this issue.

[CAnnoneer]

Manedwolf, that still leaves an inconsistency in your position. Do you or do you not trust the gov? Also, without real ID, how would the employers know to hire or not? If you are not willing to give them the tool they need to do employment verification, how can you insist on them being punished?

I have not read the Real ID text. This business about checkpoints at state borders is troubling and the historical parallels are chilling. There should be checkpoints only at the national border. But, the general idea of a national ID is a sound one. Frankly, it is the states that dropped the ball - if they had refused to give driver's licenses to illegals, then the license could serve as a Real ID for most legitimate purposes.

[De Selby]

If a business knowingly hires an illegal alien, they're aiding and abetting a criminal, the illegal alien. What part of that do you not understand.

Makes me wonder if they started prosecuting and imprisioning business owners for that, if you'd vanish. DO you hire illegals? I really have to wonder, with how defensive you are about this issue.

Wait a second-if a business knowingly hires someone who deals drugs on the side, but otherwise does his work, does that make the business guilty of aiding and abetting drug sales?  I think you might need to rethink your theory of aiding and abetting. 

But yeah, I see no answer in this later response either.  If the government isn't competent to manage realID (which is, incidentally, the only even theoretically feasible way to cut down on illegal immigrants working and living here), why does it suddenly become competent to investigate millions of small businesses and pour through payroll records to identify and arrest illegals?

[roo_ster]

SS:

Part of the 1986 amnesty bill outlawed knowingly hiring illegal aliens.

[HankB]

if a business knowingly hires someone who deals drugs on the side, but otherwise does his work, does that make the business guilty of aiding and abetting drug sales?

If the drug dealers are selling drugs while on the job, or on the businessman's premesis, or out of his vehicles, and he knows it . . . you bet he's guilty of aiding and abetting drug sales.

So you dont trust the .gov to administer a program of real ID but you do trust them to administer a program to harass legitimate business owners?

First off, those who knowingly hire illegal aliens are NOT "legitimate" business owners, they are aiding and abetting FOREIGN CRIMINALS.

Secondly, there are some things that government OUGHT to do - border security is one. Catching illegals is part of that. That government does SO many things BADLY isn't a reason to excuse them from catching illegal aliens, and those who knowingly or carelessly hire them.

Thirdly, no, this employer crackdown will NOT eliminate all illegals . . . but if perfection is a requirement to institute a solution to problem, well, pretty much all problems will stop being addressed.

[RevDisk]

I still have to be convinced about what is so horrible about a national ID card. I already have a CA driver's license and a US passport.

I worked for a very large computing facility for the DoD, specifically a DISA DECC.  Lemme put it this way, you do NOT want all your eggs in one federal IT basket.  Bad idea.  How bad?  Chewing potassium cyanide laced powdered glass would be a better idea. 

Decentralized is much better idea, lessens the impact when the system is compromised.  If the feds wanted to improve the ID problems, they'd require stronger oversight and security procedures of existing infrastructure.

[Manedwolf]

I still have to be convinced about what is so horrible about a national ID card. I already have a CA driver's license and a US passport.

I worked for a very large computing facility for the DoD, specifically a DISA DECC.  Lemme put it this way, you do NOT want all your eggs in one federal IT basket.  Bad idea.  How bad?  Chewing potassium cyanide laced powdered glass would be a better idea. 

Decentralized is much better idea, lessens the impact when the system is compromised.  If the feds wanted to improve the ID problems, they'd require stronger oversight and security procedures of existing infrastructure.

Thank you. My dad worked for the FAA as ATC for many years, and he feels the same way. Getting anything done required forms in triplicate, lost, refiled, lost again, refiled, returned with the wrong item, redone... and errors in the central bureaucracy were a daily occurrence. What's worse, the bureaucrats don't CARE. Why should someone working a zero-advancement sub-40K job in an office last decorated in 1960 with computers last updated in 1991 care, especially if they really can't be fired? Answer: They don't.

[The Rabbi]

So you dont trust the .gov to administer a program of real ID but you do trust them to administer a program to harass legitimate business owners?

If they knowingly hire illegals, they're not legitimate, they're aiding and abetting criminals.

See, I knew you would object to that. Wonder why!

I see that you didn't answer his question.

Thats because he has no answer.  The businesses are legitimate in any case, as long as they are not engaging in illegal behavior, e.g. drug running.  The fact that they hire illegals, eitehr knowingly or unknowingly, is irrelevant to their status as legitimate.
It is always easier to put the burden on other people than to accept responsibility for oneself.

If a business knowingly hires an illegal alien, they're aiding and abetting a criminal, the illegal alien. What part of that do you not understand.

Makes me wonder if they started prosecuting and imprisioning business owners for that, if you'd vanish. DO you hire illegals? I really have to wonder, with how defensive you are about this issue.

You still don't get it.  There is a distinction between a legitimate business and a legitimate business that might run afoul of some law or other.  By your reasoning any business not in full compliance with every OSHA reg is not a legitimate business.  That is plain stupid.
Yes, I hire illegals in my sweat shop, paying them pennies while honest Americans are beating down the doors looking for work.  You have an issue with that?  You want to interpose government between two private parties in a contract?  Are you a statist, Manedwolf?