Okay, NOW Chertoff has gone over the line... resisting states no-fly by May.

[Paddy]

Thank God we have a freedom loving President who put the kibosh on this.

[MechAg94]

Those who have malicious intent or just want to cheat can do an end run around this system without even slowing down. That, and centralizing ID as such just makes it even easier for ID thieves. One-stop hacking in an outdated, lowest-bidder system.

So why do we bother with law enforcement of any kind then? By your logic, criminals will always get the upper hand.

Such a standpoint is simply naive. Yeah, there will always be somebody to slip through, but many more will be stopped. Because not all criminals are the James Bond of the criminal world. Same reason why you brush your teeth and use Scope or Listerine - you can't kill all bacteria, but you can kill enough to ensure good dental health.

As far as the inefficiencies or security breaches go, work to make gov more efficient. Demand it from the politicians. Join up and try to reform the system from within.

You are calling others naive?  That has got to be one of the worst arguments yet.  "Make Govt bigger.  I know govt sucks.  Make it better." You were the one asking for logical and rational arguments right? 

I guess you don't realize that making the central government smaller and pushing more powers to the state and local level is probably the best way to make govt more efficient and responsive.

[CAnnoneer]

I have not said "make the gov bigger". A national ID would not increase the current bureaucracy if done right. And as I said in another thread, real ID would not be necessary if the states did not drop the ball in the first place, by doing really dumbass stuff like giving driver's licenses to illegals.

I am not going to start a flame war on who is more naive. All I am going to say is that this gov is still amenable to activism on the part of Joe Schmoe, a fresh example being the continual failure of amnesty bills last year. Amnesty did not happen because enough people phoned or faxed enough politicians to scare them. If they had not, the politicians would have gone ahead under the pressure from their elitist leaderships. And that is all there is to it - a balance of terror between fear from above and fear from below. If the pressure from below subsides, the politician will go down pressing on the common folk.

So, all the doom-and-gloom crowd that says everything is lost are just being wrong. Moreover, by failure to participate in the political process and to use all available legal tools at their disposal, they certainly leave the gov in the hands of the other side - incompetent bureaucrats and two-bit statists. Then at best what they are doing is a self-fulfilling prophecy. This attitude seems to be far too common on a number of issues and does not help matters at all.

[MechAg94]

The best way to not have a flame war is don't take the first pot shot, and for me to not react.   

My only beef with Real ID is that I think the Feds can ID people just fine now.  If you don't want illegals getting driver's licenses, that sort of federal law could be very short and to the point and cost states very little.  Even a yes/no citizen identifier would probably be easy.  I guess I am naturally suspicious of any new federal laws/mandates.  I think that is a healthy attitude.

[MechAg94]

I saw an article on Drudge that the FBI is looking to start an international fingerprint and eye scan database.  I think some form of national ID is probably inevitable if we don't already essentially have it.  I guess we just need to work against it to make sure it doesn't go overboard.

[LAK]

The Federal government has no Constitutional authority to do this. In time of war - a real war, declared by Congress - they could do alot of things.

Chertoff was just another strongarm change agent from the getgo. Don't forget who put him there.

So what's next - a "no drive list"?

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http://searchronpaul.com
http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[Tallpine]

I want to hear what is this new capability that the fedgov would acquire through Real ID, which it does not have now.

...

IMO, the overall effect of Real ID would be positive, not negative, because it will solve a bunch of other issues that we have, such as national security, work verification, immigration, identity theft problems.

You contradicted yourself 

[CAnnoneer]

You contradicted yourself 

Not really. If you drive a beatup lemon, replacing it with a good car does not give you any new fundamental capability. Both get you from point A to point B. The latter however can do it better, generally cheaper, and far less painfully.

Even without a Real ID, the gov can already find out who a particular person is if it applies itself hard enough. Real ID would just make it easier.

[Manedwolf]

You contradicted yourself 

Not really. If you drive a beatup lemon, replacing it with a good car does not give you any new fundamental capability. Both get you from point A to point B. The latter however can do it better, generally cheaper, and far less painfully.

Even without a Real ID, the gov can already find out who a particular person is if it applies itself hard enough. Real ID would just make it easier.

Ah yes, that's Talking Point 2. "They already have access to all this information, so what's the big deal?"

Talking Point 1 is "If you don't have anything to hide, you wouldn't be bothered by this."

 

And Chertoff just told people who object to this and all-observing internet scrutiny to "grow up". I've never really wanted to just haul off and punch a government official in the face till now. He deserves a good sock to the jaw for that, and then to have a copy of the Bill of Rights stapled to his nicely ironed lapel.

[Tecumseh]

Well this is to stop terrorists, remember?  If you dislike the Patriot Act, your a traitor.  Remember? 

Come on, Herr Bush supports the idea.  Its to make us safer.  We should support it. 

I thought we were winning the war of terror, so why would we need this kind of stuff?  I seem to remember Herr Bush saying that we are fighting them over there so we do not have to fight them over here.  So they are not going to come here because we are fighting them over there, right?  Hence there exists no need for the government to enact RealID.

[CAnnoneer]

I think some of you guys should take a deep breath, look in the mirror, and ask yourselves candidly why it is really that you oppose the ID.

My guess would be that deep inside you you have escapist fantasies about duking it out with Big Bad Uncle Sam, with the small arsenal you have in the closet. So, you feel that if Real ID were to be instituted, it would make it harder for you to dodge the fedstapo. Well, I am sorry but the reality is that even now you cannot dodge it for any appreciable amount of time, if you've got the feds properly motivated to get you. So, if indeed that is your secret motivation, then perhapst Chertoff's advice is not that far-fetched.

By the way, do you know that "chert" in Russian means "devil"? "Chertoff" can roughly be translated as "of the devil". Just an amusing tidbit. 

[CAnnoneer]

Ah yes, that's Talking Point 2. "They already have access to all this information, so what's the big deal?"

Yes, indeed. And your rational answer is...?

Talking Point 1 is "If you don't have anything to hide, you wouldn't be bothered by this."

What would be a legitimate reason for you to want to hide your identity?

[Manedwolf]

Ah yes, that's Talking Point 2. "They already have access to all this information, so what's the big deal?"

Yes, indeed. And your rational answer is...?

Talking Point 1 is "If you don't have anything to hide, you wouldn't be bothered by this."

What would be a legitimate reason for you to want to hide your identity?

I'm not even going to bother to try anymore.

You live in California, a fallen land, one under the boot heel and happy about it.

Enjoy yourself. 

[CAnnoneer]

I'm not even going to bother to try anymore. You live in California, a fallen land, one under the boot heel and happy about it.

There we go again for the umpteenth time - what is wrong with my arguments is... (drumb beats)... that I live in California. 

[Tallpine]

I think some of you guys should take a deep breath, look in the mirror, and ask yourselves candidly why it is really that you oppose the ID.

I just oppose it because I oppose everything the fed.gov does 

Seriously though - they are threatening to not allow anyone to cross state lines without their new "papers" and you have to ask why we oppose it



Do they let you do that...?  Drive from state to state, no papers?

No papers.

[LAK]

What would be a legitimate reason for you to want to hide your identity?

Someones has not read the small print. RealID will not just be your "identity" - it will be your whole life - financial, medical etc, etc, etc.

[seeker_two]

By the way, do you know that "chert" in Russian means "devil"? "Chertoff" can roughly be translated as "of the devil". Just an amusing tidbit. 

....and that alone should be enough of a hint about the guy...... 

[Sergeant Bob]

Even if you don't think it is an abrogation of our freedoms (which is debatable), who is going to pay for it? Everything the fed gov does costs us money. I am a truck driver and I already have a defacto "real ID". I had to have a criminal background check and be fingerprinted (at my expense) in order to keep my freaking job.

My drivers license went from expensive, $60 to real expensive, $160 and my paying that money is not going to stop Osama from stealing a truck full of fuel or toxic chemicals and driving it through a school.