Author Topic: Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Islamic Law in the UK...  (Read 32043 times)

Manedwolf

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Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Islamic Law in the UK...
« on: February 07, 2008, 11:57:56 AM »
Where's that barf icon?

"Dr Rowan Williams said the UK had to "face up to the fact" some citizens do not relate to the British legal system.
He said adopting parts of Islamic Sharia law could help social cohesion. For example, Muslims could choose to have marital disputes or financial matters dealt with in a Sharia court."   shocked

Quote
Archbishop sparks Sharia law row

 Leading politicians have distanced themselves from the Archbishop of Canterbury's belief that some Sharia law in the UK seems "unavoidable".

Gordon Brown's spokesman said the prime minister "believes that British laws should be based on British values".

The Tories called the archbishop's remarks "unhelpful" and the Lib Dems said all must abide by the rule of law.

Dr Rowan Williams said the UK had to "face up to the fact" some citizens do not relate to the British legal system.

He said adopting parts of Islamic Sharia law could help social cohesion.

For example, Muslims could choose to have marital disputes or financial matters dealt with in a Sharia court.

'Changes'

But the prime minister's official spokesman said Sharia law could never be used as a justification for committing a breach of English law, nor could the principle of Sharia law be applied in a civil case.

He added that Mr Brown had a good relationship with the archbishop, who was perfectly entitled to express his views.

Home Office Minister Tony McNulty said: "To ask us to fundamentally change the rule of law and to adopt Sharia law, I think, is fundamentally wrong."

And Culture Secretary Andy Burnham told BBC One's Question Time: "This isn't a path down which we should go.

"You cannot run two systems of law alongside each other," he said, adding this would be "chaos".

For the Conservatives, shadow community cohesion minister Baroness Warsi said the archbishop's comments were "unhelpful".

"Dr Williams seems to be suggesting that there should be two systems of law, running alongside each other, almost parallel, and for people to be offered the choice of opting into one or the other," she told BBC News 24. "That is unacceptable."

Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg said he had "an enormous amount of respect" for Dr Williams, but could not agree with him on this issue.

"Equality before the law is part of the glue that binds our society together. We cannot have a situation where there is one law for one person and different laws for another.

"There is a huge difference between respecting people's right to follow their own beliefs and allowing them to excuse themselves from the rule of law."

Trevor Phillips, who chairs the Equality and Human Rights Commission said the "implication that British courts should treat people differently based on their faith is divisive and dangerous".

"It risks removing the protection afforded by law, for example, to children in custody cases or women in divorce proceedings," he said.

"There is a fundamental principle here when you appear before a court in Britain you appear as a citizen, equal to any other and you should be treated equally to any other."

'Sensational'

Dr Williams said Muslims should not have to choose between "the stark alternatives of cultural loyalty or state loyalty".

In an interview with BBC correspondent Christopher Landau, he argued this relied on Sharia law being better understood. At the moment, he said "sensational reporting of opinion polls" clouded the issue.

He stressed that "nobody in their right mind would want to see in this country the kind of inhumanity that's sometimes been associated with the practice of the law in some Islamic states; the extreme punishments, the attitudes to women as well".

But Dr Williams said an approach to law which simply said "there's one law for everybody and that's all there is to be said, and anything else that commands your loyalty or allegiance is completely irrelevant in the processes of the courts - I think that's a bit of a danger".

"There's a place for finding what would be a constructive accommodation with some aspects of Muslim law, as we already do with some other aspects of religious law."

Dr Williams added: "What we don't want either, is I think, a stand-off, where the law squares up to people's religious consciences."

"We don't either want a situation where, because there's no way of legally monitoring what communities do... people do what they like in private in such a way that that becomes another way of intensifying oppression inside a community."

Multiculturalism 'divisive'

Under English law, people may devise their own way to settle a dispute in front of an agreed third party as long as both sides agree to the process.

Muslim Sharia courts and the Orthodox Jewish courts which already exist in the UK come into this category.

Mohammed Shafiq, director of the Ramadhan Foundation, welcomed Dr Williams's comments, saying they "further underline the attempts by both our great faiths to build respect and tolerance".

He added: "Sharia law for civil matters is something which has been introduced in some western countries with much success. I believe that Muslims would take huge comfort from the government allowing civil matters being resolved according to their faith."

Ibrahim Mogra, of the Muslim Council of Britain, said: "We're looking at a very small aspect of Sharia for Muslim families when they choose to be governed with regards to their marriage, divorce, inheritance, custody of children and so forth."

He added: "Let's debate this issue. It is very complex. It is not as straight forward as saying that we will have a system here."

But Mark Pritchard, Tory MP for the Wrekin, in Shropshire, said the archbishop's comments were "naive and shocking" and he accused him of "pseudo-theological appeasement".

He said: "The archbishop should be standing up for our Judeo-Christian principles that underpin British criminal law that have been hard fought for.

"He should be concentrating on winning souls into the Church of England rather than getting involved in politics."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7233335.stm

Multicultural Express, now leaving King's Cross on the track of good intentions, destination hell.
Perhaps this archbishop should take a look at how well that sharia thing has worked for the dysfunctional post-civilization pits it's moved into before...

A foreign woman was just arrested for sitting next to a male colleague in a Saudi Arabia Starbucks. UK in 20 years?


CAnnoneer

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Re: Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Islamic Law in the UK...
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2008, 12:07:34 PM »
His Eminence should probably STFU before he loses his non-profit status.

On another note, history does not support compromises with Islam.

Balog

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Re: Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Islamic Law in the UK...
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2008, 12:26:05 PM »
Good to see Christianity is so well represented in England.  rolleyes
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Iain

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Re: Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Islamic Law in the UK...
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2008, 01:46:36 PM »
I don't expect many will attempt to understand what he is saying, they'll only hear 'sharia' (and 'muslim') and expose their own prejudices.

It seems what he is suggesting is only a slight expansion of a system that already exists. The issues involved would be limited, and there are already courts dealing with religious and civil matters, such as the London Beth Din. Them be Jews by the way.

Quote
The Beth Din is the most formally entrenched of these minority courts. The UK's main Beth Din is based in Finchley, north London.

It oversees a wide range of cases including divorce settlements, contractual rows between traders and tenancy disputes.

The court cannot force anyone to come within its jurisdiction. But once someone agrees to settle a dispute in the Beth Din, he or she is bound in English law to abide by the court's decision.

This is because under English law people may devise their own way to settle a dispute before an agreed third party.

Crucially, the legislation does not insist that settlements must be based on English law; all that matters is the outcome is reasonable and both parties agree to the process.
- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6190080.stm

So it would seem there is legal precedent. That will not prevent rantings about chopping off hands and hanging rape victims, nor will it prevent the invoking of the slippery slope.

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CAnnoneer

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Re: Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Islamic Law in the UK...
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2008, 02:19:17 PM »
Iain, no rational person can believe that this "law within the law" and "country within the country" can possibly result in anything good, especially when the host and the invader cultures are so different in critical ways. Do not blame us for seeing what this really is - a bloody awful idea.

There can be no equality before the law or cultural cohesion when some laws apply to some people but not others within the same country. Also, who decides what "reasonable" means? Some liberal judge ready to capitulate before multiculturalism and pathological sensitivity? Who exactly will benefit in the long run from all this garbage? If some people do not wish to live under the law of the land, why are they migrating to the UK? Why don't they just stay in whichever islamic toilet they come from?

Excessive tolerance and accomodation will be the end of Western Civilization.

And, His Eminence should really STFU because even if he were right about a political issue, it is not his place to comment on it publicly, at least so long as he holds his post.

seeker_two

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Re: Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Islamic Law in the UK...
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2008, 02:27:57 PM »
He does realize that, under Sharia law,he's a dead man. Right?......
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Sergeant Bob

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Re: Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Islamic Law in the UK...
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2008, 05:41:58 PM »
It's a different culture over there. Some things which seem outrageous to us are completely normal to a lot of people in England.

When I tell my British and Australian friends I have 5 guns, they act like it's an arsenal and ask why I need so many guns. They think nothing of having to having to register pellet (IIRC) guns and having to belong to a club to own them.
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
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BridgeWalker

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Re: Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Islamic Law in the UK...
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2008, 05:50:14 PM »
Quote
Iain, no rational person can believe that this "law within the law" and "country within the country" can possibly result in anything good, especially when the host and the invader cultures are so different in critical ways. Do not blame us for seeing what this really is - a bloody awful idea.

Y'know, as much as I disagree with the successful Islamic invasion/takeover of Europe that is underway, I have to disagree with this statement.  We live with systems of laws within laws.  It's called Federal law and state law.  We also have communities that practice their own law, including Jews.  My father resolved several business and contract issues through a beis din (aka beit din).  Catholics follow Canon Law (well, sometimes) which is usually a personal, devotional thing, but does affect interaction between people as well, although less so in the current era than historically, partly because Christianity is at least a major source of our current culture and law.

Historically speaking, before geographic nation-states, people followed the rule of their tribe or clan or family.  Interactions between them affected far fewer disputes; most disputes arise among people who are in close contact with each other: hence family courts and probate courts, a *huge* proportion of the work American courts of various kinds perform.

I don't see why the British gov't should be involved though.  If Muslims want to follow Sharia law among themselves, that is fine. Jews do it, and have done it, for centuries.  Muslims may be more accustomed to living in theocracies of their own faith, and so are familiar with gov't-imposed Sharia law, but they should just learn to adapt and set up their own courts.  And their law would have to operate within the bounds of British law.  

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Islamic Law in the UK...
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2008, 06:06:25 PM »
I don't have much problems with Muslims agreeing to solve their problems in their own way, provided they stay nonviolent.  Same as anyone else.  Nothing wrong with them forming, say, some sort of Muslim arbitration system that Muslims could go to to resolve civil matters according to the guidelines of Sharia.   

It doesn't sound like that's what they want to do, though.  I sounds like they want two separate sets of laws, for two separate classes of people.

That can't possibly end well.

Bigjake

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Re: Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Islamic Law in the UK...
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2008, 06:54:20 PM »
Quote
  don't expect many will attempt to understand what he is saying, they'll only hear 'sharia' (and 'muslim') and expose their own prejudices.

It seems what he is suggesting is only a slight expansion of a system that already exists. The issues involved would be limited, and there are already courts dealing with religious and civil matters, such as the London Beth Din. Them be Jews by the way.

I'm pretty sure Beth Din doesn't regularly sentence women to death by beheading or stoning for moronic, 8th century offences...

CAnnoneer

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Re: Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Islamic Law in the UK...
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2008, 07:41:11 PM »
I'm pretty sure Beth Din doesn't regularly sentence women to death by beheading or stoning for moronic, 8th century offences...

Precisely. It is a question of inherent incompatibilities issuing from different cultures. Whether it is Catholic or Jewish sublaw, so long as its spirit and general values are compatible with the common law, it is essentially the same law system with subsections differing semantically.

By contrast, when you have the host and invader differing almost diametrically on important issues, there can be no good end to it. That is why the given definition of "so long as it is reasonable" is just bloody awful stupid. The resolution of a conflict is not the difference between 20 and 21 lashes, or 10 or 11 days in prison. For some offenses the spread is astronomical.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Islamic Law in the UK...
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2008, 08:21:28 PM »
Yes, I'm working on my thread killing skills. It seems if you predict the path a thread will take almost everyone is loathe to prove you right. 


Is that how that works?  More and more, I have come to appreciate those who throw cold water on my fellow conservatives when we get all in a froth about certain things.  The local Lutheran radio station does that, too. 
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BridgeWalker

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Re: Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Islamic Law in the UK...
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2008, 08:29:00 PM »
Quote
Whether it is Catholic or Jewish sublaw, so long as its spirit and general values are compatible with the common law, it is essentially the same law system with subsections differing semantically.

I can assure you, from extensive personal experience and long study, that Canon law, Halacha/Jewish law, and American or English common law are *vastly* different from each other in a myriad of ways.  Semantics barely begins to scratch the surface of the ocean of differences.  Or maybe I'm just a law geek.

I concur that Islamic law seems largely incompatible with British law.  I also think the Muslim invasion is frankly frightening.  But other cultures manage to get their legal systems to work within their communities without violating too many laws of the sovereign state.  I think they oughta figure it out.  Obviously, that is not what is called for in the link, or the Archbishop wouldn't be involved. 

De Selby

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Re: Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Islamic Law in the UK...
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2008, 10:24:35 PM »
He does realize that, under Sharia law,he's a dead man. Right?......

Huh? Why is this?

Where did you read "sharia law" such that you learned what its conclusions are?
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De Selby

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Re: Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Islamic Law in the UK...
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2008, 10:27:06 PM »
I'm pretty sure Beth Din doesn't regularly sentence women to death by beheading or stoning for moronic, 8th century offences...

Precisely. It is a question of inherent incompatibilities issuing from different cultures. Whether it is Catholic or Jewish sublaw, so long as its spirit and general values are compatible with the common law, it is essentially the same law system with subsections differing semantically.

In what way is Jewish law different from Islamic law?

If you translated both into the same language and removed the obvious markers like names and verse numbers, I seriously doubt anyone but highly trained jurists in either tradition could even tell the difference.

That's one of the things I find so odd about the Islam bashing campaign afoot-it's so similar to the religions of every western european country (including Judaism) that you'd think people would take a step back and look at other explanations for terrorism and violence, but apparently this isn't commonly done.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Iain

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Re: Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Islamic Law in the UK...
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2008, 10:37:33 PM »
... but they should just learn to adapt and set up their own courts.  And their law would have to operate within the bounds of British law.  


Precisely, therefore the courts would be limited to civil matters and would only apply to those who agreed to submit to the judgement of the court. Therefore if I have a dispute with my Jewish landlord I am not bound to go through the Beth Din if that was his preferred court, we'd end up in a normal British court. He has a dispute with a Jewish tenant and they both agree to the Beth Din then the judgement of the Beth Din is binding...

...with the proviso that the judgement of the Beth Din has to be 'reasonable' as far as British law is concerned. Reasonable would imply legal - therefore no death penalty or corporal punishment at all, and certainly no stonings, hangings or beheadings for adultery or anything else being issued from sharia courts. I predicted that this would be misinterpreted, and it was.
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De Selby

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Re: Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Islamic Law in the UK...
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2008, 10:41:47 PM »
... but they should just learn to adapt and set up their own courts.  And their law would have to operate within the bounds of British law.  


Precisely, therefore the courts would be limited to civil matters and would only apply to those who agreed to submit to the judgement of the court. Therefore if I have a dispute with my Jewish landlord I am not bound to go through the Beth Din if that was his preferred court, we'd end up in a normal British court. He has a dispute with a Jewish tenant and they both agree to the Beth Din then the judgement of the Beth Din is binding...

...with the proviso that the judgement of the Beth Din has to be 'reasonable' as far as British law is concerned. Reasonable would imply legal - therefore no death penalty or corporal punishment at all, and certainly no stonings, hangings or beheadings for adultery or anything else being issued from sharia courts. I predicted that this would be misinterpreted, and it was.

Sounds exactly like arbitration in the US-common law countries have had this concept for at least a hundred years, and who knows how much longer.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

LAK

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Re: Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Islamic Law in the UK...
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2008, 02:25:06 AM »
Ah ... the joys of multiculture.

Personally, I think the wisest thing would be to send these people back to a homeland of their own. Conservatives should have listened to Enoch Powell and dealt with the change agents at that time as well.

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CAnnoneer

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Re: Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Islamic Law in the UK...
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2008, 03:36:13 AM »
Therefore if I have a dispute with my Jewish landlord I am not bound to go through the Beth Din if that was his preferred court, we'd end up in a normal British court. He has a dispute with a Jewish tenant and they both agree to the Beth Din then the judgement of the Beth Din is binding...

You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

If both courts would produce essentially the same ruling, then why have a duplicate system in the first place?? If they would not produce essentially the same ruling, then I contend the inconsistencies would eventually produce serious problems. To me, this is beyond obvious.

Also, consider the following scenario: A jew and a muslim have a dispute. Each wants to go to his respective ethnocultural court. They cannot agree. Who would force them to go to a British court? They can even start suing one another about suing one another, each in their respective court, or in a British court for the right to take it elsewhere.

And all of this nonsense, extra expense, and social risks to accomodate a completely misguided multicultural worldview.

HankB

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Re: Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Islamic Law in the UK...
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2008, 04:16:55 AM »
Separate sets of laws based on religion don't work well - an example is what happened in Nauvoo in the early to mid 1800s. Mormons dominated, and a Mormon accused of a crime was generally set free or given a slap on the wrist by a court comprised of other Mormons. River pirates took advantage of this, and became Mormons - it was almost a license to steal. The resentment this provoked eventually caused the Mormons to leave . . . though it's my understanding that even today, their histories leave out some of the important details and focus on the "bigotry" and "intolerance" of others.

As for the Archbishop of Canterbury, he's an excellent example of the old saying that "Many things are holy, but few holy men are."

They must be teaching dhimmitude in Church of England seminaries these days.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Islamic Law in the UK...
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2008, 04:56:36 AM »
That's one of the things I find so odd about the Islam bashing campaign afoot-it's so similar to the religions of every western european country (including Judaism) that you'd think people would take a step back and look at other explanations for terrorism and violence, but apparently this isn't commonly done. 


No, it's not similar.  Yes, you can find points of similarity.  But these religions are all very different.  Why do we pretend otherwise?
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Manedwolf

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Re: Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Islamic Law in the UK...
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2008, 05:01:07 AM »
That's one of the things I find so odd about the Islam bashing campaign afoot-it's so similar to the religions of every western european country (including Judaism) that you'd think people would take a step back and look at other explanations for terrorism and violence, but apparently this isn't commonly done. 

Is it, now.



(That's in London, BTW.)

Iain

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Re: Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Islamic Law in the UK...
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2008, 05:43:10 AM »
And there were prosecutions. And continuing to insist that scenes like the one above are representative of anything but the tiniest minority is little more than fear-mongering.

Can we lay this to rest - what we are talking about is an arbitration process that is entirely voluntary and already exists. It would be entirely under British law, therefore no 'one rule for muslims, one for non-muslims' in either the British courts or the proposed British sharia courts. The issues would not be criminal and would be entirely civil issues such as tenancy etc.

Even the original post recognised this last point, so the continuation of this thread beyond the pointing out of the existence of the Beth Din has little to do with legal concerns and more to do with 'sharia'.

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ilbob

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Re: Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Islamic Law in the UK...
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2008, 05:46:33 AM »
doesn't sound all that bad. not much difference than having the litigants allowing an arbitrator to decide the case rather than tying up the court system.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Islamic Law in the UK...
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2008, 05:52:39 AM »
And there were prosecutions. And continuing to insist that scenes like the one above are representative of anything but the tiniest minority is little more than fear-mongering.

Hey, it's your country. It's just that in 20 years, you'll be asking yourself "Hey, what happened?" when interfactional violence blows up more Underground trains, more buses, blows up the Thames flood barrier, and the most notable landmark left in a half-flooded London is Big Ben, which doesn't work, but has got "call to prayer" loudspeakers on it.

You're ceding your country to people who view concession as a weakness to be exploited. You're ceding it to people who do not view themselves as British citizens, but as Islamists living in Britain. And you're tolerating a growing culture of intolerance in the name of tolerance. And it will destroy you. Enjoy! Smiley

(We'll just sit back with popcorn and watch, and consider it a warning.)