100 MPG cars...

[K Frame]

I'm surprised at you all.

Everyone knows that any step towards fuel economy or energy conservation of any kind is an anti-American pro-Communist plot devised by the Satan Worshiping Council on Foreign Relations and is designed only to enslave and lobotomize freedom loving, independent thinking Americans everywhere.

You pack of sheeptools...

[Tecumseh]

Except that the electricity to charge said cars has to come from somwhere else, and there's usually a smokestack attached to that big electrical generator.

You're simply moving the exhaust from a tailpipe to a bigger smokestack.

Why do you hate America?

  I hate the freedoms.

I would suggest advocating solar power myself.  Or wind power.  Something less environemtnally harmful.

[Tecumseh]

I'm surprised at you all.

Everyone knows that any step towards fuel economy or energy conservation of any kind is an anti-American pro-Communist plot devised by the Satan Worshiping Council on Foreign Relations and is designed only to enslave and lobotomize freedom loving, independent thinking Americans everywhere.

   So you know my employers?

[Manedwolf]

I would suggest advocating solar power myself.  Or wind power.  Something less environemtnally harmful.

Compared to the daily energy needs of the country, that would be like trying to power an aircraft carrier with a AA battery.

The percentage of power that can be obtained via those means would be something like .00001 percent of the national daily power consumption.

[roo_ster]

If the whole country would take a giant step towards public transportation you wouldn't be having this discussion. That's the real solution. To see the thousands upon thousands of cars stuck in traffic every day commuting back and forth from Hartford, each one with a single occupant, is just laughable. Alleviate that alone and you'll see gas prices plummet. The whole situation is self induced by all those who refuse to pool up one way or another and MUSt each drive their own car to work. They built an HOV lane here on I-84. What a wonderful idea! First it was three or more occupants to qualify, the lane was a ghost town. So they lowered it to two occupants. The lane is STILL a ghost town. We're talking YEARS now, still very little use. Go figger...

 

Aside from the added risk of mayhem from riding public transport, I would add that a person's time has a value.  And, public transport almost invariably means more time spent in transit.

Also, public transport is just about worthless to 99.99% of commuters.  They all seem to be a hub/spoke system, when the job growth is out in the 'burbs.   So folks travel radially around the inner-city hub from home to work.

[280plus]

That's because people don't USE it. If they used it more often it would be able to turn a profit and maybe improve upon itself. Like I said, it'll never change until gas or whatever is SO expensive it's forced upon us. Then still, the only ones who will be able to drive their vehicles to town will be the rich folk. The rest of us peons will be swapping dread diseases on the bus... 

[Declaration Day]

The public transportation systems in Detroit used to go to and from some of the surrounding suburbs.  One by one, those surrounding cities are cutting off funds for the system because fewer than 1% of the city's residents ride the bus.

[Tecumseh]

I would suggest advocating solar power myself.  Or wind power.  Something less environemtnally harmful.

Compared to the daily energy needs of the country, that would be like trying to power an aircraft carrier with a AA battery.

The percentage of power that can be obtained via those means would be something like .00001 percent of the national daily power consumption. 

Actually I watched a discovery channel special on alternative energy sources and they said that the average American roof collects enough energy to power itself twice over.  Even on the cloudiest days there is still enough energy to power your home, assuming you don't use a substantial amount of extra energy.  But I would imagine that if you did it would be due to a bigger home.  Then your roof would probably also be larger. 

There is some good information on Wikipedia.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_energy

What if we started to use natural light more, solar heating, and other methods to reduce our expenditures naturally? 

[Tecumseh]

If the whole country would take a giant step towards public transportation you wouldn't be having this discussion. That's the real solution. To see the thousands upon thousands of cars stuck in traffic every day commuting back and forth from Hartford, each one with a single occupant, is just laughable. Alleviate that alone and you'll see gas prices plummet. The whole situation is self induced by all those who refuse to pool up one way or another and MUSt each drive their own car to work. They built an HOV lane here on I-84. What a wonderful idea! First it was three or more occupants to qualify, the lane was a ghost town. So they lowered it to two occupants. The lane is STILL a ghost town. We're talking YEARS now, still very little use. Go figger...

 

Aside from the added risk of mayhem from riding public transport, I would add that a person's time has a value.  And, public transport almost invariably means more time spent in transit.

Also, public transport is just about worthless to 99.99% of commuters.  They all seem to be a hub/spoke system, when the job growth is out in the 'burbs.   So folks travel radially around the inner-city hub from home to work.

  How much time in transit from these large cities with gridlock?  Does that not also add up?  So people will have to get to the station and then tehy will have to walk from the station to work or hop a bus.  I can't imagine walking more is going to do this country bad.  Is it? 

I for one actually support a tax increase on gas.  I would like to see it go up by at least $1.00 per gallon.  Simply so that people will start using otehr means of transportation.  Not to mention for research that could be used to end our dependence on oil. 

[Manedwolf]

I would suggest advocating solar power myself.  Or wind power.  Something less environemtnally harmful.

Compared to the daily energy needs of the country, that would be like trying to power an aircraft carrier with a AA battery.

The percentage of power that can be obtained via those means would be something like .00001 percent of the national daily power consumption. 

Actually I watched a discovery channel special on alternative energy sources and they said that the average American roof collects enough energy to power itself twice over.  Even on the cloudiest days there is still enough energy to power your home, assuming you don't use a substantial amount of extra energy.  But I would imagine that if you did it would be due to a bigger home.  Then your roof would probably also be larger. 

There is some good information on Wikipedia.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_energy

What if we started to use natural light more, solar heating, and other methods to reduce our expenditures naturally?

Of course, they didn't mention that it'd cost about $50,000 to cover the roof of your house with solar panels, right?
And will your insurance cover damage to them in a storm? How long do they last through temperature extremes?

This is why solar has been a non-starter.

I for one actually support a tax increase on gas.  I would like to see it go up by at least $1.00 per gallon.  Simply so that people will start using otehr means of transportation.  Not to mention for research that could be used to end our dependence on oil. 

Response withheld. Go vote for Hillary, you're of like mind. 

Maybe once you get out into the real world and have to deal with a daily commute like the rest of us, you'll understand.

(and they want to lower the voting age? I think they need to RAISE it!)

[280plus]

Of course, they didn't mention that it'd cost about $50,000 to cover the roof of your house with solar panels, right?

I hate to bust yer bubble but I was quoted $89,000 for 875 sq ft of solar voltaic panels to produce a measly 10 amps/1000kwh. 

You guys would love that I spent Friday last week looking at these new IR vacuum tube type solar arrays (heats a glycol solution). On a cold cloudy New England day they were returning 80* water from the roof. Very neat stuff! I was there doing research for a project that could be a "Green Home" showpiece and would be the first of it's kind in the US, and maybe, quite possibly, the rest of the planet too. 

[Bogie]

That seems awfully high to me on the solar electric stuff... A retrofit should be a LOT lower.
 
Personally, I can see stuff like small water turbines getting a bit of use... And solar electric - once it's in, it's in. Today's stuff has a decent lifespan, and most of it is actually tougher than your roof...
 
Wind farms also strike me as very interesting. Especially since a row can be put in along the border of agricultural land with very low impact. And remember - they don't have to be huge. There just needs to be enough of them.
 

[280plus]

I've heard numbers as low as $75,000 but that was a definite quote from a solar electricity company. Remember though, A good portion of that is for the controls board etc you need to make it all work. Still, howlong will it take to get a payback on that? I made a mistake, I believe 10 amps is only 1 KWH not 1000! My memory is a bit fuzzy on it. Believe me though, the jaw dropped when we got down to the nitty gritty! 

[Tecumseh]

I would suggest advocating solar power myself.  Or wind power.  Something less environemtnally harmful.

Compared to the daily energy needs of the country, that would be like trying to power an aircraft carrier with a AA battery.

The percentage of power that can be obtained via those means would be something like .00001 percent of the national daily power consumption. 

Actually I watched a discovery channel special on alternative energy sources and they said that the average American roof collects enough energy to power itself twice over.  Even on the cloudiest days there is still enough energy to power your home, assuming you don't use a substantial amount of extra energy.  But I would imagine that if you did it would be due to a bigger home.  Then your roof would probably also be larger. 

There is some good information on Wikipedia.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_energy

What if we started to use natural light more, solar heating, and other methods to reduce our expenditures naturally?

Of course, they didn't mention that it'd cost about $50,000 to cover the roof of your house with solar panels, right?
And will your insurance cover damage to them in a storm? How long do they last through temperature extremes?

This is why solar has been a non-starter.

I for one actually support a tax increase on gas.  I would like to see it go up by at least $1.00 per gallon.  Simply so that people will start using otehr means of transportation.  Not to mention for research that could be used to end our dependence on oil. 

Response withheld. Go vote for Hillary, you're of like mind. 

Maybe once you get out into the real world and have to deal with a daily commute like the rest of us, you'll understand.

(and they want to lower the voting age? I think they need to RAISE it!)

  Well let me throw it at you a different way, you do believe that we should not be forced to pay for our health care.  However as a side effect of all the cars and their exhaust we are seeing numerous sicknesses such as asthma, lung cancer, and other respiratory problems which are found in areas with high smog such as Los Angeles.  Now those drivers are all in part responsible for someone getting sick, should tey be able to seek compensation? 

[Manedwolf]

I would suggest advocating solar power myself.  Or wind power.  Something less environemtnally harmful.

Compared to the daily energy needs of the country, that would be like trying to power an aircraft carrier with a AA battery.

The percentage of power that can be obtained via those means would be something like .00001 percent of the national daily power consumption. 

Actually I watched a discovery channel special on alternative energy sources and they said that the average American roof collects enough energy to power itself twice over.  Even on the cloudiest days there is still enough energy to power your home, assuming you don't use a substantial amount of extra energy.  But I would imagine that if you did it would be due to a bigger home.  Then your roof would probably also be larger. 

There is some good information on Wikipedia.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_energy

What if we started to use natural light more, solar heating, and other methods to reduce our expenditures naturally?

Of course, they didn't mention that it'd cost about $50,000 to cover the roof of your house with solar panels, right?
And will your insurance cover damage to them in a storm? How long do they last through temperature extremes?

This is why solar has been a non-starter.

I for one actually support a tax increase on gas.  I would like to see it go up by at least $1.00 per gallon.  Simply so that people will start using otehr means of transportation.  Not to mention for research that could be used to end our dependence on oil. 

Response withheld. Go vote for Hillary, you're of like mind. 

Maybe once you get out into the real world and have to deal with a daily commute like the rest of us, you'll understand.

(and they want to lower the voting age? I think they need to RAISE it!)

  Well let me throw it at you a different way, you do believe that we should not be forced to pay for our health care.  However as a side effect of all the cars and their exhaust we are seeing numerous sicknesses such as asthma, lung cancer, and other respiratory problems which are found in areas with high smog such as Los Angeles.  Now those drivers are all in part responsible for someone getting sick, should tey be able to seek compensation? 

They CHOOSE to live in LA. Personal choice, personal responsibility.

Don't like the smog? MOVE!

[Ryan in Maine]

I for one actually support a tax increase on gas.  I would like to see it go up by at least $1.00 per gallon.  Simply so that people will start using otehr means of transportation.  Not to mention for research that could be used to end our dependence on oil. 

A tax increase in metro areas? Or nation-wide? Gas has been over $3 per gallon for quite some time now here in Northern Maine. Putting gas over $4 per gallon in such a rural area would be very hard on families.

What alternative methods of transportation do we have here in Northern Maine between October and May? No one is going to walk across town, let alone commute from outside of town during those months, when temperatures can fall below freezing (likely only at night from late April-May, but people work at night too). Not to mention we get 10-11' of snow on average here every season.

Walking? Not going to work unless it's summer. Even then, it's limited to people who live within walking distance of their careers, which I'm going to bet isn't a whole lot.

Car-pooling? You're going to run into trouble when people are commuting to work 10-20 minutes (or more) from outside of town in opposite directions. Feasible option for some folks, though.

Alternative fuels? Not available around here (or even three hours in any direction as far as I know).

What else is there if gas hits us at over $4 per gallon?

[Bogie]

Too many folks think that solar entails a big battery bank, etc... Personally, I'd like to see some small hybrid systems - basically just a few panels and a utility intertie... During the day, you're at work, and presumably you've got most of the house's systems shut down... Why not spin that meter backwards a while?
 

[Manedwolf]

Too many folks think that solar entails a big battery bank, etc... Personally, I'd like to see some small hybrid systems - basically just a few panels and a utility intertie... During the day, you're at work, and presumably you've got most of the house's systems shut down... Why not spin that meter backwards a while?

Have you priced that sort of thing? The ones I'd seen, it'd not pay itself off for several decades.

[Paddy]

Public transportation is good for the densely populated tiny little east coast states.  Here in the west, though, the distances are too great and population too sparse to support rails and busses.  We need cars, thanks all the same.

BTW, the Prius gets 40-45 mpg.  It would get more, but SWMBO has a lead foot.  And my Echo easily gets 40mpg on the highway, and with the VVT-i engine it never wants for power.   It was $12k out the door.

[280plus]

If the shoe fits...

[Tecumseh]

Public transportation is good for the densely populated tiny little east coast states.  Here in the west, though, the distances are too great and population too sparse to support rails and busses.  We need cars, thanks all the same.

BTW, the Prius gets 40-45 mpg.  It would get more, but SWMBO has a lead foot.  And my Echo easily gets 40mpg on the highway, and with the VVT-i engine it never wants for power.   It was $12k out the door.

  Obviously though it would be much different for rural areas but in larger cities and metro areas I think it is feasible to work on improving mass transit. 

[Tecumseh]

I would suggest advocating solar power myself.  Or wind power.  Something less environemtnally harmful.

Compared to the daily energy needs of the country, that would be like trying to power an aircraft carrier with a AA battery.

The percentage of power that can be obtained via those means would be something like .00001 percent of the national daily power consumption. 

Actually I watched a discovery channel special on alternative energy sources and they said that the average American roof collects enough energy to power itself twice over.  Even on the cloudiest days there is still enough energy to power your home, assuming you don't use a substantial amount of extra energy.  But I would imagine that if you did it would be due to a bigger home.  Then your roof would probably also be larger. 

There is some good information on Wikipedia.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_energy

What if we started to use natural light more, solar heating, and other methods to reduce our expenditures naturally?

Of course, they didn't mention that it'd cost about $50,000 to cover the roof of your house with solar panels, right?
And will your insurance cover damage to them in a storm? How long do they last through temperature extremes?

This is why solar has been a non-starter.

I for one actually support a tax increase on gas.  I would like to see it go up by at least $1.00 per gallon.  Simply so that people will start using otehr means of transportation.  Not to mention for research that could be used to end our dependence on oil. 

Response withheld. Go vote for Hillary, you're of like mind. 

Maybe once you get out into the real world and have to deal with a daily commute like the rest of us, you'll understand.

(and they want to lower the voting age? I think they need to RAISE it!)

  Well let me throw it at you a different way, you do believe that we should not be forced to pay for our health care.  However as a side effect of all the cars and their exhaust we are seeing numerous sicknesses such as asthma, lung cancer, and other respiratory problems which are found in areas with high smog such as Los Angeles.  Now those drivers are all in part responsible for someone getting sick, should tey be able to seek compensation? 

They CHOOSE to live in LA. Personal choice, personal responsibility.

Don't like the smog? MOVE!

  If I wanted to do something that harms others should I be allowed to do it, if they could just move.  For example I want to release chemicals into the drinking water of your local hometown.  Should I be allowed to?  I mean if you don't like it, you can move afterall...

[Manedwolf]

Public transportation is good for the densely populated tiny little east coast states.  Here in the west, though, the distances are too great and population too sparse to support rails and busses.  We need cars, thanks all the same.

BTW, the Prius gets 40-45 mpg.  It would get more, but SWMBO has a lead foot.  And my Echo easily gets 40mpg on the highway, and with the VVT-i engine it never wants for power.   It was $12k out the door.

  Obviously though it would be much different for rural areas but in larger cities and metro areas I think it is feasible to work on improving mass transit. 

And force the taxpayers to pay for it, even if they don't use it?

Yeah, you're heading right for the statist bobblehead crowd. Watch yourself.

[280plus]

Correction: Those tubes are UV not IR,,,doh!

 

[ilbob]

I would suggest advocating solar power myself.  Or wind power.  Something less environemtnally harmful.

Compared to the daily energy needs of the country, that would be like trying to power an aircraft carrier with a AA battery.

The percentage of power that can be obtained via those means would be something like .00001 percent of the national daily power consumption.

Its not that low. In fact, if you took economics, convenience, and national security out of the picture, it could well be 100% of the energy usage. We had an economy based largely on solar energy (via trees that produced wood). It was not real efficient.

Solar energy has some potential, but the photo-voltaic side is not it. Another problem with solar is that the energy is not where the people are for the most part, so it suffers from all the same inefficiencies as all the current energy delivery methods do. Cities are very dense energy users, and there is no chance at all that the relatively small amount of solar radiation available per person in urban areas would ever be adequate.