Blame the parents? or I never knew a person I'd trust with kids

[Winston Smith]

In a thread on THR, people were lamenting the lack of parenting in a case where some kids threw eggs at cars, and then got shot up.

I don't see how it can be the parent's fault, at the ages these kids were. At what point does a person accept responsibility for what they do, without it being leveled at outside circumstances. Yes, outside circumstances have an effect, but we all have a choice... even if that choice is to follow our natural instics, including throwing eggs at cars.

I've done some crazy *expletive deleted*it in my time, and my parents, while not being the best, are pretty good. They are human beings too, you know.

What do you think? At what point does a human being become fully acountable?

[Morgan]

When you're old enough to be out and about, alone, you're responsible for your own actions during such times.

My mother was a saint (three boys to raise), and my father is an honest-to-God hero, yet I did some reeeaaally stupid things when I was a teen.  I'd slap silly anyone who blamed my parents for my stupidity, then or now.

[TarpleyG]

I think it is a combination of both.  I certainly knew right from wrong at that age (my parent's responsibility) but that didn't stop me from acting like a fool (my responsibility).  I threw eggs at cars, rocks at houses, shot flaming tennis balls on arrows, strung up cans across the road on fishing line, climbed on top of the school buildings in my neighborhood, etc. and routinely wreaked havoc in my 10 square blocks.  Did I deserve to be shot?  No.  Did I deserve a good ass-whippin' by my dad?  Yes.

Greg

[Jamisjockey]

I think it is a combination of both.  I certainly knew right from wrong at that age (my parent's responsibility) but that didn't stop me from acting like a fool (my responsibility).  I threw eggs at cars, rocks at houses, shot flaming tennis balls on arrows, strung up cans across the road on fishing line, climbed on top of the school buildings in my neighborhood, etc. and routinely wreaked havoc in my 10 square blocks.  Did I deserve to be shot?  No.  Did I deserve a good ass-whippin' by my dad?  Yes.

Greg

+1.  The parents may be complicit if the kids are constantly a menace and they do nothing about it, but as a parent you can only watch the little buggers so much.  They will be in society unsupervised sometime.....

[USP45usp]

I didn't do any of those things (throw eggs, try to decapitate people with fishing line, etc..).  Because I knew that I was going to get that butt whooping from my dad.  

Now, the kid did not deserve to be shot (this is being discussed at TFL as well) and the idiot in the truck murdered the kid.

But the kid(s) should be held accountable also.  Throwing anything at people is assualt, and egging the cars/trucks is vandalism, plain and simple.

Shooting someone for simple assualt and vandalism is murder, plain and simple.

Wayne

[telewinz]

OK, what MODERN DAY options do you feel parents have in disciplining their children?

[duck hunt]

I didn't do any of those things (throw eggs, try to decapitate people with fishing line, etc..).  Because I knew that I was going to get that butt whooping from my dad.

Ditto here.  I think I was the only kid I knew who never shoplifted.  The fear was too great.

[Guest]

Well, I find that consistancy is the best thing. If I tell you that if you do X, then Y will happen, and you do X, then Y will certainly happen. I don't think it matters so much what Y is, as that if you says its going to happen, it does.

You also need to make sure your kids understand that actions have consequences.

[Guest]

Speaking of kids, Duck Hunt..any new ones at your house??

[Declaration Day]

OK, what MODERN DAY options do you feel parents have in disciplining their children?

I assume you are referring to parents getting in legal hot water for spanking their kids.

I have two kids, and if they need a spanking, they get it.  Even in public.  Fortunately for them, I rarely have to spank anymore.  If somebody wants to call the police on me for keeping my kids under control, so be it.

My children will grow up to be decent, respectful adults, so help me God.  So far, they're well on their way.  Their behavior is far better than the other kids I know whose parents refuse to spank them.

[Winston Smith]

The way I see it, a parent's job in discipline is to mirror the real world consequences of actions, maximising the didactic qualities while minimizing the lasting damage of the experience. One way the real world explains lessons is through physical pain... to deny this tool to parent's is to have a child that grows up disconnected from that reality.

And that's all there is to it.

Of course, there's a line to be crossed there. A large, thick line between spanking and beating.

[TarpleyG]

telewinz wrote:

    OK, what MODERN DAY options do you feel parents have in disciplining their children?

Well, when I was about 5, my mom told me that I was in no way allowed to ride my bike in the street in front of our house unless she or my dad was with me (big hill that we lived at the bottom of and cars couldn't see me coming over).  I rode out there anyway one day and she found out about it as moms do.  I grew up the first 9 years of my life in TN and switches were the preferred method of hillbillies (my mom) for inflicting compliance pain so that's what I got--all up and down my legs and tush.  Wasn't the first time either, mind you.  Well, I guess the nosy old lady next dorr saw me some days later with welts all over my legs so she called the 'authorities'.  Mom was in some serious hot water even back then ('74 or so) but I stayed at home with her and never rode my bike in the street again.

Was my punishment severe?  Yes.  But, considering an alternative outcome, it was justified and it worked.

Greg

[Art Eatman]

All kids test for limits.  The main thing is to not let the limits be "somewhere out there" and unknown to the kid.  Another important thing is to be firm, and teach the kid that when some limit is set, that's IT.  Don't fudge--and fudge and fudge, or the little grabber will figure out how to create his own no-limits world.

And when a kid DOES obey a limit without being told, some mild praise is in order.  All kids love attention, and it's far better to be able to give attention with something positive than via a butt-chewing.  The latter leads to bad behavior in order to get attention--and that's truly wrong.

Art

[telewinz]

In the REAL TODAY World, public school teachers are required BY LAW to report any SUSPECTED abuse.  Mind you SUSPECTED, that includes paddling or ANYTHING that leaves a mark.  Now say a kid isn't afraid of a stern look, has already been dealt with in a firm manner, sneaks out of his room when restricted, has already been counseled, is considered "normal" but immature and the expert advice is "be patient, he will out grow it".  Enough with the "softball" (easy) answers, the World has changed and thumbing your nose at reality in my observations only lasts until the authorities become involved.  False courage provides smiles not solutions.  You do know that from the first grade on up, students are required to be read their RIGHTS on the first day of class.  Our prisons are filled with the failures of the "easy", softball solutions.

[jefnvk]

Barb, +1.  You threaten the kid with punishment, you better do it.

And spanking, should be alllowed.  I got a few good lickings in my younger days (less than 10 years ago), and they work quite well.  As does the soap in the mouth thing.  Much more so than grounding and taking things away.

[Guest]

...What do you think? At what point does a human being become fully acountable?

Since humans develop at differing rates, I would propose that when a young person and his parents agree that they should be legally separate, a contract should be drawn up declaring that new relationship. The current state gets in the way of such a logical system by imposing age regulations on contracts and schooling. These should be repealed.

 A young human with a 200 IQ reaches normal intelligence at about age 9. Just think of all of the mischief he will dream up in the next 9 years if treated as a child.

 Until the contract system is adopted, I vote for puberty as the age at which humans are considered adult. It's obvious that puberty is when most of the parent/offspring friction starts.