Author Topic: Ron Paul Wins  (Read 26240 times)

The Rabbi

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Re: Ron Paul Wins
« Reply #75 on: March 08, 2008, 03:43:26 PM »
Oooh, big scary numbers.  We're doomed!

Of course if you look at the value of assets held by the US you would see a corresponding increase.  And if you look at the deficit as a percentage of GDP you will find it is at the lowest its been in quite a while.  Very much lower than during the halcyon post-WW2 days.

Yeah, its the business cycle.  Comes around every few years. Get used to it.
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K Frame

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Re: Ron Paul Wins
« Reply #76 on: March 08, 2008, 08:14:19 PM »
Rabbi, I've told you this time and time again, and I'm getting SICK of telling you this...

STOP LOOKING AT THE BIG PICTURE!

You look ONLY at the one number to determine whether the economy is totally and completely screwed up!

ONE NUMBER ONLY!

All of those other numbers that refute that ONE NUMBER are thrown in there by the liberoconserarepublidemnazicomufascists to confuse the simple minded and take away from the fact that the ONE NUMBER says we're doomed!
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Re: Ron Paul Wins
« Reply #77 on: March 08, 2008, 08:20:25 PM »
You guys can yuk it up all you want, but the fact remains that 27 years of Reaganomics combined with the spending of this current administration and 30+ years of Greenspan's manipulations has destroyed the middle class, turned us into a debtor nation, devalued the dollar down to damn worthlessness and screwed not only us, but several generations to come.

So, vote Republican.  It will keep the big government, big spending liberals out of office.  rolleyes

Sheesh.  No wonder we've got what we've got.

K Frame

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Re: Ron Paul Wins
« Reply #78 on: March 08, 2008, 08:37:52 PM »
Oh, gee, look at that, the "middle class no longer exists because Ronald Reagan destroyed it" schtick again.

Trying to prove Hitler right, that if you repeat a lie often enough (and shrilly enough) people actually start to believe it?
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Manedwolf

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Re: Ron Paul Wins
« Reply #79 on: March 08, 2008, 08:50:20 PM »
Oh, gee, look at that, the "middle class no longer exists because Ronald Reagan destroyed it" schtick again.

Trying to prove Hitler right, that if you repeat a lie often enough (and shrilly enough) people actually start to believe it?

My parents did really well in the Reagan years. New car, we got to go to Disney World every year and stay in the core hotels across from the parks...Lots better than they'd done in the Carter years, I'm pretty sure.

LAK

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Re: Ron Paul Wins
« Reply #80 on: March 09, 2008, 01:43:15 AM »
Indeed, let's look at the big picture.

$53 trillion in future liabilities, and a current debt of over $9 trillion - and increasing by $170 billion per day. So what are these national assets that are going to pay this off? If some calamity places a temporay halt on the market trading and there is a run on the banks what are the tangible assets that can be liquidated or offered when the notes are called in?

Interest on the national debt alone amounts to over 400 billion a year. How much interest has the American taxpayers paid in interest on this borrowing over the last thirty or forty years?

Slavery? Reparations? Who is now getting rich to the tune of $400 billion dollars from our blood and sweat?

If you have an individual man that digs himself into a financial hole like this, and keeps digging himself deeper, he is rightly looked upon a nut. On a government level it is more than sheer lunacy - it is a crime against the nation's people. It is our money - the fruits of our labor, our livelyhood - being given away. The fact that the money is being extracted from people under the threat of force equates to racketeering on a massive scale.

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MicroBalrog

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Re: Ron Paul Wins
« Reply #81 on: March 09, 2008, 01:53:09 AM »
There are NO alternative economic theories other than conventional business cycle theory. None at all. GO AWAY. grin
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The Rabbi

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Re: Ron Paul Wins
« Reply #82 on: March 09, 2008, 05:28:06 AM »
There are NO believable alternative economic theories other than conventional business cycle theory. None at all. GO AWAY. grin

Fixed it for ya.
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seeker_two

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Re: Ron Paul Wins
« Reply #83 on: March 09, 2008, 05:31:09 AM »
There are NO more UN-believable alternative economic theories other than conventional business cycle theory. None at all. GO AWAY. grin

Fixed it for ya.

Fixed the fix....  grin
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Re: Ron Paul Wins
« Reply #84 on: March 09, 2008, 11:45:04 AM »
All of those other numbers that refute that ONE NUMBER are thrown in there by the liberoconserarepublidemnazicomufascists to confuse the simple minded and take away from the fact that the ONE NUMBER says we're doomed!

That reminds me, Nader's running again.
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LAK

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Re: Ron Paul Wins
« Reply #85 on: March 10, 2008, 02:20:51 AM »
Interesting; I wonder why there were no answers to my specific questions.

OK, I am catching on now. The obvious truth matters not in "the business cycle" and "recession", the show simply goes on until the stricken ship begins to list heavily and people start sliding off the decks into the icey water, the bow begins to dip beneath the waves and the stern to rise.

So there is no alternative monetary system; other than unfunded and unsecured liabilities to the tune of $53 billion (and climbing), $9 trillion debt (and climbing), and paying out $400+ billion in interest (and climbing) to some "lucky" connected people - off the the backs of the American people??

Right Wink

Some of you ought to go work as "financial advisers" to people in debt, bankrupt and in ruin. I mean, you could break the delusions of any of them might have about becoming debt free, accumilating tangible wealth, and perhaps even financially independence some day. All with the obvious reasoned, logical and rational truth that they simply need to spend more! On anything and everything! Enormous debt, huge interest payments are good! Consolidation, tangible wealth and no debt bad!

Good for who?

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The Rabbi

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Re: Ron Paul Wins
« Reply #86 on: March 10, 2008, 03:23:31 AM »
Interesting; I wonder why there were no answers to my specific questions.

OK, I am catching on now. The obvious truth matters not in "the business cycle" and "recession", the show simply goes on until the stricken ship begins to list heavily and people start sliding off the decks into the icey water, the bow begins to dip beneath the waves and the stern to rise.

So there is no alternative monetary system; other than unfunded and unsecured liabilities to the tune of $53 billion (and climbing), $9 trillion debt (and climbing), and paying out $400+ billion in interest (and climbing) to some "lucky" connected people - off the the backs of the American people??

Right Wink

Some of you ought to go work as "financial advisers" to people in debt, bankrupt and in ruin. I mean, you could break the delusions of any of them might have about becoming debt free, accumilating tangible wealth, and perhaps even financially independence some day. All with the obvious reasoned, logical and rational truth that they simply need to spend more! On anything and everything! Enormous debt, huge interest payments are good! Consolidation, tangible wealth and no debt bad!

Good for who?

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Check the term "rhetorical question" and you'll learn why no one has bothered to answered yours.
Plenty of people are debt free.  Plenty of people pay their bills on time.  The vast majority of even sub-prime mortgages get paid on time.
Yes, it would be fun to sit around and declare the sky is falling but it has happened in over 30 years that I've been watching, and things are a lot better now than they were in the 1970s.
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HankB

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Re: Ron Paul Wins
« Reply #87 on: March 10, 2008, 03:39:13 AM »
  . . . And if you look at the deficit as a percentage of GDP you will find it is at the lowest its been in quite a while.  Very much lower than during the halcyon post-WW2 days . . .
The problem is, deficits keep building the national debt . . . plus interest accrues. And you really shouldn't count on repaying it with inflated dollars or shrug it off with a comment like "Well, as a percentage of GDP, it's not so bad."

If a man making $100,000 a year spends only $5000 more than he takes in, that overspending is a low percentage of his income . . . but if he keep adding to his debt a like amount every year, even in relatively small increments, he's ultimately headed for problems.

Note that the supposed "surpluses" of the Clinton administration (thanks to a GOP congress that showed some semblance of fiscal responsibility back then) were still the result of creative accounting, as the national debt continued to increase.

(see the graph at http://www.cedarcomm.com/~stevelm1/usdebt.htm )
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Manedwolf

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Re: Ron Paul Wins
« Reply #88 on: March 10, 2008, 03:58:01 AM »
Check the term "rhetorical question" and you'll learn why no one has bothered to answered yours.
Plenty of people are debt free.  Plenty of people pay their bills on time.  The vast majority of even sub-prime mortgages get paid on time.
Yes, it would be fun to sit around and declare the sky is falling but it has happened in over 30 years that I've been watching, and things are a lot better now than they were in the 1970s.

Of course, that won't help if the government "fixes it to death", thus causing serious inflation. That and raising taxes on all the people who ARE currently swimming around happily can cause them to sink instead.


The Rabbi

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Re: Ron Paul Wins
« Reply #89 on: March 10, 2008, 04:18:23 AM »
  . . . And if you look at the deficit as a percentage of GDP you will find it is at the lowest its been in quite a while.  Very much lower than during the halcyon post-WW2 days . . .
The problem is, deficits keep building the national debt . . . plus interest accrues. And you really shouldn't count on repaying it with inflated dollars or shrug it off with a comment like "Well, as a percentage of GDP, it's not so bad."

If a man making $100,000 a year spends only $5000 more than he takes in, that overspending is a low percentage of his income . . . but if he keep adding to his debt a like amount every year, even in relatively small increments, he's ultimately headed for problems.

Note that the supposed "surpluses" of the Clinton administration (thanks to a GOP congress that showed some semblance of fiscal responsibility back then) were still the result of creative accounting, as the national debt continued to increase.

(see the graph at http://www.cedarcomm.com/~stevelm1/usdebt.htm )

OK.  Lets cut to the chase.
What negative result will occur as the gov't continues to grow the deficit while the economy grows at at least the same rate?

And Clinton's surpluses had more to do with the dot com boom and rising revenues than any discipline on his or Congress' part.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Ron Paul Wins
« Reply #90 on: March 10, 2008, 04:24:40 AM »
The deficit essentially increases M3, which is the true measure of the amount of money in the economy.

Under Friedmanite economics, you can safely inflate M3 at the same rate at which the economy grows, or at a low, set rate below that.

Not expand the money supply at all, and you cause a deflation, which can be almost as bad as inflation.
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LAK

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Re: Ron Paul Wins
« Reply #91 on: March 11, 2008, 02:51:34 AM »
The Rabbi.

A $9 trillion dollar debt and a forecast $53 trillion in future liabilities in one sector of public spending is rhetorical?

Asking you to cite these assets you refer to and claim to offset this is rhetorical?

Quote
"... Laurence Kotlikoff, an economist and research associate with the National Bureau of Economic Research, asked this question: If the United States collected all of the future revenue it anticipates receiving and matched that to its future obligations, would it be able to meet them? The answer was "no," to the tune of $45 trillion.... "
- U.S. government debt jumping by trillions, Dallas Morning News - April 11, 2004

Is that rhetorical?

HankB,

There is also the issue of the American taxpayer being fleeced to the tune of nearly $2 trillion in interest payments every two years.

Tidy sum of money going to someones over the last four decades. I wonder what it takes to get in on some of that action.. could it be "who you know"? Or some other cozy arrangement.

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The Rabbi

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Re: Ron Paul Wins
« Reply #92 on: March 11, 2008, 03:52:26 AM »
36.8% of GDP, 65th largest in the world.
Yawn.  Wake me when this thread is over.

Quote
"... Laurence Kotlikoff, an economist and research associate with the National Bureau of Economic Research, asked this question: If the United States collected all of the future revenue it anticipates receiving and matched that to its future obligations, would it be able to meet them? The answer was "no," to the tune of $45 trillion.... "

ANd how does anyone know how much revenue the US will get even next year?  I want to meet that man.
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Paddy

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Re: Ron Paul Wins
« Reply #93 on: March 11, 2008, 07:27:11 AM »
Quote
The vast majority of even sub-prime mortgages get paid on time.

Do your news reports go through some Alice in Wonderland reality warp before they arrive down there?   Your version seems to be regularly different than actual events. Or maybe it's the 'tiny minority' of sub-primes that are responsible for the chaos, the meltdown of financial sectors worldwide, the frantic attempts of the fed to bolster the economy with voodoo economics, etc., et yada  rolleyes

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-03-11-foreclosures_N.htm

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Ron Paul Wins
« Reply #94 on: March 11, 2008, 07:47:49 AM »
was there supposed to be a refutation of "most subprime mortgages are paid on time" in that article? or did you link to the wrong one?

The Rabbi

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Re: Ron Paul Wins
« Reply #95 on: March 11, 2008, 08:28:06 AM »
Riley, Riley.  What is it going to take to persuade you that a) Republicans are not the Devil Himself; b) The sky is not falling; c) Despite some issues the economy is excellent by historical measure?  Hmm?

Here:
Quote
Default rate on U.S. subprime mortgages continues to rise
By Vikas Bajaj
Published: October 16, 2007
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NEW YORK: During the summer credit crisis, investors concluded that the default rates on subprime mortgages made last year would probably prove to be the highest in the industry's history.

But there appears to be another contender for that dubious honor: subprime loans made in the first half of this year.

Borrowers who took out loans in the first six months of 2007 are falling behind on payments faster than homeowners who took out loans last year, according to a report by Friedman, Billings, Ramsey, an investment bank based in Arlington, Virginia.

The data suggested that more Americans could lose their homes and that the housing market's troubles might persist longer than many analysts have been predicting.

The report's author, Michael Youngblood, a portfolio manager and analyst at Friedman, Billings, Ramsey, said that most mortgage companies and banks had not tightened lending standards for borrowers with weak, or subprime, credit until July or August, even though early this year regulators, analysts and mortgage investors knew that the easy lending policies of 2005 and 2006 were producing high default rates.
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"There are $10.6 trillion of mortgage loans outstanding in the U.S., and even if the brakes had been slammed, it was going to take a long time to slow this locomotive down," said Youngblood, who has researched home lending for more than 20 years. "And I don't see that the brakes were slammed on or that the engineer had a new track to follow. That track only now seems to be appearing."

He noted that Countrywide Financial, the largest U.S. lender whose practices are often emulated by smaller companies, did not significantly tighten standards until August.

And it was only in mid-July that Moody's Investors Service and Standard & Poor's, the large ratings agencies, said they would make major changes in the assumptions that they use to evaluate pools of home loans sold to investors.

As of August, default rates on adjustable-rate subprime mortgages written in 2007 had reached 8.05 percent, up from 5.77 percent in July, according to Youngblood's analysis of pools of home loans put together by Wall Street banks and sold to investors.

By comparison, only 5.36 percent of adjustable-rate subprime loans made last year had defaulted by August 2006. Default rates on fixed-rate subprime mortgages were lower, but were rising at a similar pace.

In the first six months of the year, Wall Street securitized $215 billion in subprime loans, down 23 percent from the comparable period a year earlier, according to Friedman, Billings, Ramsey. By the end of August, the total had dropped by 33 percent from the comparable eight months of 2006.

So if 8.05% have defaulted then almost 92% are being paid on time.  I'd call that the vast majority.  Even accounting for delinquencies, it's still over 80%.
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outerlimit

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Re: Ron Paul Wins
« Reply #96 on: March 11, 2008, 09:31:26 PM »
36.8% of GDP, 65th largest in the world.
Yawn.  Wake me when this thread is over.

Quote
"... Laurence Kotlikoff, an economist and research associate with the National Bureau of Economic Research, asked this question: If the United States collected all of the future revenue it anticipates receiving and matched that to its future obligations, would it be able to meet them? The answer was "no," to the tune of $45 trillion.... "

ANd how does anyone know how much revenue the US will get even next year?  I want to meet that man.


You may want it to be over.  laugh

Sadly we're sliding into an economic depression because of our Government's monetary policy. I hope that we can come out of this slump. While I disliked Romney because of his AWB stance, I think he would have been excellent for the country fiscally.

LAK

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Re: Ron Paul Wins
« Reply #97 on: March 11, 2008, 10:52:11 PM »
The Rabbi,

There is a um ... slight gap between the aggregate of our GDP and over sixty trillion dollars in liabilities. Yes, someone should wake up.

Quote
ANd how does anyone know how much revenue the US will get even next year?  I want to meet that man.
Kotlikoff has written numerous articles for the Federal Reserve Bank; evidently someone has some trust in his judgements in economics. And since the whole system of fiat money is a big juggling and guessing game, there is no reason to believe that Kotlikoff knows any less about money and an economy and a U.S. Congressman or Pres, or Mr. Bernanke. Bernanke sure knows the business of fleecing a country of it's wealth.

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The Rabbi

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Re: Ron Paul Wins
« Reply #98 on: March 12, 2008, 02:33:07 AM »
The Rabbi,

There is a um ... slight gap between the aggregate of our GDP and over sixty trillion dollars in liabilities. Yes, someone should wake up.

Quote
ANd how does anyone know how much revenue the US will get even next year?  I want to meet that man.
Kotlikoff has written numerous articles for the Federal Reserve Bank; evidently someone has some trust in his judgements in economics. And since the whole system of fiat money is a big juggling and guessing game, there is no reason to believe that Kotlikoff knows any less about money and an economy and a U.S. Congressman or Pres, or Mr. Bernanke. Bernanke sure knows the business of fleecing a country of it's wealth.

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Take the amount of your mortgage payment (or trailer note as may be appropriate), and multiply by the months remaining.  Big scary number, eh?  How are you gonna pay for it?
No difference here.  It is useless comparing future liabilities to current income.
People predicted disaster from Reagan's deficits (those bifg scary numbers again).  Istead we had the longest period of expansion in history.  Only the DU and paranoid types could spin it as anything but a huge success.

As for Kotlikoff, appeals to authority (and dubious authority at that--I've never heard of the guy) are worthless as argumentation.
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HankB

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Re: Ron Paul Wins
« Reply #99 on: March 12, 2008, 04:45:51 AM »
. . . Take the amount of your mortgage payment (or trailer note as may be appropriate), and multiply by the months remaining.  Big scary number, eh?  How are you gonna pay for it?
Bad comparison . . . in the case of most people, the outstanding balance on their mortgage doesn't keep increasing every year the way the national debt does.
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Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain