Author Topic: The FINAL word on what anyone should think of Ron Paul.  (Read 22527 times)

Jamisjockey

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Re: The FINAL word on what anyone should think of Ron Paul.
« Reply #50 on: March 10, 2008, 03:05:49 AM »


So then when do we get in return for our billions of dollars in welfare to the Israelis?

Slow down killer.
First you say they're not allies because they never helped us repel boarders.
Now you've switched your tack and you're attacking the government money we dole out unto other countries.
Which is it?  Which argument are you presenting here? 

what do we get in return for our billions of welfare to Africa?

We support Isreal because they are a free people surrounded by screaming jihadis.
JD

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MicroBalrog

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Re: The FINAL word on what anyone should think of Ron Paul.
« Reply #51 on: March 10, 2008, 03:19:25 AM »
And you are exactly correct, jamisjokey.

America shouldn't be giving money to Africa OR to Israel.

It doesn't help America, and it doesn't even help the people in the countries it's supposed to be helping.

Foreign aid, like welfare, rarely solves the problem it's intended to solve, and often exacerbates it.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: The FINAL word on what anyone should think of Ron Paul.
« Reply #52 on: March 10, 2008, 09:31:18 AM »
Quote
screaming jihadis


I'm laying claim to that phrase right now, for if I ever start a band.
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Manedwolf

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Re: The FINAL word on what anyone should think of Ron Paul.
« Reply #53 on: March 10, 2008, 09:32:45 AM »
And you are exactly correct, jamisjokey.

America shouldn't be giving money to Africa OR to Israel.

It doesn't help America, and it doesn't even help the people in the countries it's supposed to be helping.

Foreign aid, like welfare, rarely solves the problem it's intended to solve, and often exacerbates it.

If you ignore a fire in another part of the forest, eventually, it'll come burn you, too.

LAK

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Re: The FINAL word on what anyone should think of Ron Paul.
« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2008, 03:10:33 AM »
Quote
If you ignore a fire in another part of the forest, eventually, it'll come burn you, too.
Poor analogy - and very global village. We have the technology and general knowhow to defend this country from any tangible military threat. And instead of inviting people in from questionable nations we should be booting them out - and making every effort to keep them out. Call it an effective firefighting force, and big fire breaks in depth.

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The Rabbi

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Re: The FINAL word on what anyone should think of Ron Paul.
« Reply #55 on: March 11, 2008, 03:50:34 AM »
Quote
If you ignore a fire in another part of the forest, eventually, it'll come burn you, too.
Poor analogy - and very global village. We have the technology and general knowhow to defend this country from any tangible military threat. And instead of inviting people in from questionable nations we should be booting them out - and making every effort to keep them out. Call it an effective firefighting force, and big fire breaks in depth.


Yeah, we sure did in 9/11 and the previous bombing of the WTC rolleyes

As for keeping people out, Russia is now (or will soon be) an official enemy. I guess that means we need to deport Oleg.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: The FINAL word on what anyone should think of Ron Paul.
« Reply #56 on: March 11, 2008, 03:51:55 AM »

If you ignore a fire in another part of the forest, eventually, it'll come burn you, too.


So... you're saying that America should be afraid of Hamas, who are not able to *reliably hit the country they're aiming at with rockets*? Who have *killed Palestinians because their idiotic Kassam rockets flew in the wrong directions*?

But that's besides the point.

The point is the aid does not HELP Israel. It allows its military estalibmshment and government grow fat and silly with the excuse that 'America will always send more aid', while actually wasting MORE MONEY on bureaucracy than America send in in aid, while destroying Israel's indigenous military industry and taking more and more factories and design orders to America (for example, the Tavor is not made in Israel anymore).

THere are people who benefit - the Ollmert government, the IDF top tier, and the various American corporations that get to split the 2.5 gigabucks per year.

The Israeli public? Hahahahaha.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Manedwolf

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Re: The FINAL word on what anyone should think of Ron Paul.
« Reply #57 on: March 11, 2008, 03:55:48 AM »
Quote
If you ignore a fire in another part of the forest, eventually, it'll come burn you, too.
Poor analogy - and very global village. We have the technology and general knowhow to defend this country from any tangible military threat. And instead of inviting people in from questionable nations we should be booting them out - and making every effort to keep them out. Call it an effective firefighting force, and big fire breaks in depth.

So I guess we should have ignored Nazi Germany as they took over all of Europe and made it into an empire, until they made the V2 into an ICBM, until they built the transatlantic jet bombers they were working on specifically to reach the United States?

Yeah, that would have worked.  rolleyes Because, historically, building walls and sitting there while massive armies lay siege has worked so well in every instance. Eventually, you run out of stuff because NO RESOURCES CAN COME IN.

The point is the aid does not HELP Israel. It allows its military estalibmshment and government grow fat and silly with the excuse that 'America will always send more aid', while actually wasting MORE MONEY on bureaucracy than America send in in aid, while destroying Israel's indigenous military industry and taking more and more factories and design orders to America (for example, the Tavor is not made in Israel anymore).

So it's...bad for us to aid Israel, because it makes them place design and factory orders with American military contractors, which results in more jobs for Americans in America building weapons for Israel, that they're buying. That's what you just said.  cheesy

MicroBalrog

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Re: The FINAL word on what anyone should think of Ron Paul.
« Reply #58 on: March 11, 2008, 04:11:10 AM »
Quote
So it's...bad for us to aid Israel, because it makes them place design and factory orders with American military contractors, which results in more jobs for Americans in America building weapons for Israel, that they're buying. That's what you just said. 

So... corporate welfare is good now?

Wouldn't it be better to just... I dunno, buy more F-16's and give them to American soldiers?

Or [gasp] CUT TAXES.

Quote
So I guess we should have ignored Nazi Germany as they took over all of Europe and made it into an empire

Except Hamas, Hezbullah, Al-Quaeda, and ALL THE TERRORISTS PUT TOGETHER are not half the threat that the Nazis or the Japanese, or the Soviets were.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Manedwolf

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Re: The FINAL word on what anyone should think of Ron Paul.
« Reply #59 on: March 11, 2008, 04:14:46 AM »
Quote
So it's...bad for us to aid Israel, because it makes them place design and factory orders with American military contractors, which results in more jobs for Americans in America building weapons for Israel, that they're buying. That's what you just said. 

So... corporate welfare is good now?

Wouldn't it be better to just... I dunno, buy more F-16's and give them to American soldiers?

Or [gasp] CUT TAXES.

No, no, you said it, you can't wiggle out of it now. You know it's not corporate welfare, don't equivocate or make up strawmen and red herrings!

Except Hamas, Hezbullah, Al-Quaeda, and ALL THE TERRORISTS PUT TOGETHER are not half the threat that the Nazis or the Japanese, or the Soviets were.

Really? Neither the Nazis, Japanese, nor the Soviet Union ever managed a strike on the US mainland. Al-Quaeda did, destroying two of of our iconic buildings and severely damaging the Pentagon, the former Department of War building itself, killing thousands of Americans on American soil. Nobody else has managed that. Nobody else but Al-Quaeda has ever hit the US mainland in a high-casualty, high-destruction attack since the War of 1812. They're not a threat, you say?


MicroBalrog

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Re: The FINAL word on what anyone should think of Ron Paul.
« Reply #60 on: March 11, 2008, 04:20:59 AM »
Quote
No, no, you said it, you can't wiggle out of it now. You know it's not corporate welfare, don't equivocate or make up strawmen and red herrings!

How is it not corporate welfare? US taxpayer money going to US corporations for the sole purpose of aiding those corporations... yes, seems like corporate welfare to me.

Quote
Really? Neither the Nazis, Japanese, nor the Soviet Union ever managed a strike on the US mainland.

The Soviet Union was fully capable of destroying America as it existed, if given half the chance. Happily America didn't give them that chance.

The Japanese killed more Americans, by orders of magnitude. Further, the Japanese have carried out several attacks on US mainland, through the use of bomb-laden baloons, mostly, and carried out a ground invasion of the Aleutian islands.

Quote
Al-Quada did, destroying two of of our iconic buildings and severely damaging the Pentagon, the former Department of War building itself, killing thousands of Americans on American soil. Nobody else has managed that. They're not dangerous, you say?

AQ is capable, no doubt, of causing various damage, terrorist acts, killing people and damaging property. They are not, however, capable of outright destroying American society, just as the Anarchist terrorists that operated in the US at the dawn of the 20th centuries were.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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K Frame

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Re: The FINAL word on what anyone should think of Ron Paul.
« Reply #61 on: March 11, 2008, 04:30:52 AM »
"Neither the Nazis, Japanese, nor the Soviet Union"

Wrong.

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The Rabbi

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Re: The FINAL word on what anyone should think of Ron Paul.
« Reply #62 on: March 11, 2008, 04:37:00 AM »
Quote
No, no, you said it, you can't wiggle out of it now. You know it's not corporate welfare, don't equivocate or make up strawmen and red herrings!

How is it not corporate welfare? US taxpayer money going to US corporations for the sole purpose of aiding those corporations... yes, seems like corporate welfare to me.

[

No, that's called "purchasing."  The US gov't does it every day.  They pay money and get jet fighters or whatever in return.  Wonderful thing, commerce.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: The FINAL word on what anyone should think of Ron Paul.
« Reply #63 on: March 11, 2008, 05:00:11 AM »

No, that's called "purchasing."  The US gov't does it every day.  They pay money and get jet fighters or whatever in return.  Wonderful thing, commerce.
[/quote]

So, what exactly does the US government get here?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Manedwolf

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Re: The FINAL word on what anyone should think of Ron Paul.
« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2008, 05:09:32 AM »
"Neither the Nazis, Japanese, nor the Soviet Union"

Wrong.



Hm? When did any of those three hit the US mainland? Huh?

The Japanese hit Pearl Harbor, which is not the mainland. The Germans never got here. The Soviets pointed missiles at us.

That's history as I know it, at least. Unless you count the five people killed in Oregon when they messed with a grounded Japanese nuisance balloon-bomb. I don't.

MechAg94

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Re: The FINAL word on what anyone should think of Ron Paul.
« Reply #65 on: March 11, 2008, 05:29:35 AM »
The German submarines torpedoed merchant ships right outside our own harbors in WWII.  In the Gulf of Mexico down here as well.  I would count that as a hit.

I believe a Japanese sub surfaced and shot some artillery at the coast, but I don't think they caused much damage.  They also launched those balloons, but canceled the program.  I understand they had no intention of invading US soil except as a diversion.

What is your standard here?  Just a hit on the mainland or a high destruction attack?
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Manedwolf

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Re: The FINAL word on what anyone should think of Ron Paul.
« Reply #66 on: March 11, 2008, 05:36:14 AM »
I would say a high-casualty attack on the US mainland itself. As in, destruction in a US city. The bringing of a war home, not offshore, not in an island offshore. The continental US.

AFAIK, the last time before 2001 that happened via attack by foreign agents was when the British burnt things in the War of 1812?

The point I was making was that since Al-Qaeda managed to destroy the WTC towers, severely damage the US military headquarters, and might have taken out the Capitol or White House too if the people on Flight 93 hadn't fought with them, they most certainly are a significant threat.

The Rabbi

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Re: The FINAL word on what anyone should think of Ron Paul.
« Reply #67 on: March 11, 2008, 05:40:57 AM »

No, that's called "purchasing."  The US gov't does it every day.  They pay money and get jet fighters or whatever in return.  Wonderful thing, commerce.

So, what exactly does the US government get here?
[/quote]
Tax revenue.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: The FINAL word on what anyone should think of Ron Paul.
« Reply #68 on: March 11, 2008, 08:20:12 AM »
What a crock of steaming bovine excrement.

Having a strong, civilized, democratic, non-extremist ally in the heart of the middle east is a Very Good Thing.  Period. 

Al Qaida is a serious threat to the United States.  Period. 

It astounds me that anyone would try to debate either of these two self-evident facts.

Finch

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Re: The FINAL word on what anyone should think of Ron Paul.
« Reply #69 on: March 11, 2008, 10:12:16 AM »
Al Qaida is a serious threat to the United States.  Period. 

Only because our attempt to destroy them is in reality going to destroy us and who we are/were as a nation. Our government is doing more damage to this nation than Al Qaida ever has or will.
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seeker_two

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Re: The FINAL word on what anyone should think of Ron Paul.
« Reply #70 on: March 11, 2008, 11:29:49 AM »
Quote
screaming jihadis


I'm laying claim to that phrase right now, for if I ever start a band.

It'd be a heck of a girl band name....
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

MechAg94

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Re: The FINAL word on what anyone should think of Ron Paul.
« Reply #71 on: March 11, 2008, 05:45:01 PM »
Al Qaida is a serious threat to the United States.  Period. 

Only because our attempt to destroy them is in reality going to destroy us and who we are/were as a nation. Our government is doing more damage to this nation than Al Qaida ever has or will.
Oh come on.  We started down that road long before All Queda came around.  No reason to blame them for that. 
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MechAg94

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Re: The FINAL word on what anyone should think of Ron Paul.
« Reply #72 on: March 11, 2008, 05:46:23 PM »
I would say a high-casualty attack on the US mainland itself. As in, destruction in a US city. The bringing of a war home, not offshore, not in an island offshore. The continental US.

AFAIK, the last time before 2001 that happened via attack by foreign agents was when the British burnt things in the War of 1812?

The point I was making was that since Al-Qaeda managed to destroy the WTC towers, severely damage the US military headquarters, and might have taken out the Capitol or White House too if the people on Flight 93 hadn't fought with them, they most certainly are a significant threat.

I don't disagree that they are a threat.  I just take issue with the way you defined the standard.  Smiley
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De Selby

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Re: The FINAL word on what anyone should think of Ron Paul.
« Reply #73 on: March 11, 2008, 06:38:23 PM »
How ironic-the one Israeli on this thread points out that all this foreign "aid" gets wasted on projects that have very little to do with real threats to the existence of either Israel or America, and that very few in the Israeli public see any benefit.

Micro, I support your vision of an Israel with honest government and civil rights, including the right to free speech and the right to be free from a largely undemocratic, uninterested military bureaucracy. 

It must be something awful to live right next door to the gangs of Hamas and tell people "those retards can't reliably operate bottle rockets", only to hear back about what a great threat to the existence of America and Israel they are, and that's why your bosses need x billion dollars and to purchase more stuff from America.

The security hype operates in America much the same way-people try to use it to silence criticism of the government and to justify inordinate amounts of spending on "security" projects that don't contribute much to anyone's welfare or security.

Of course we don't have anything so extreme as your emergency censorship laws.  Are there many in Israel who oppose it, and do you think there's any chance of it being changed this century?

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K Frame

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Re: The FINAL word on what anyone should think of Ron Paul.
« Reply #74 on: March 11, 2008, 07:32:23 PM »
As others have noted, the Japanese and Germans were active in very close proximity to the CONUS during much of the war.

A Japanese submarine shelled an oil storage facility in Santa Barbara.

German submarines were active all along the Gulf and Atlantic coasts during the war, sinking numerous ships and killing quite a few American sailors.

The Japanese launched several thousand balloon bombs against the United States, killing several people.

The Germans made repeated attempts to land saboteurs and spies in the United States during the War.


Tell us, though, Maned. Just what do you define as a "high casualty attack"?

5? 50? 500? 5,000? 5,000,000?

I'll tell you what my definition of a high casualty attack is against Americans on American soil.

ONE.
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