Author Topic: Senator Clinton: I want to be first U.S. president to march in gay pride parade  (Read 14718 times)

The Rabbi

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And your point is?

My point is that it is not fair of you to state that he is "not allowed" to express his beliefs publicly, when in the next breath you state that you feel obligated to PUBLICLY EXPRESS your disapproval of his opinions.  You are both entitle to your opinions, and as long ass neither one of you causes harm to anyone else then you can do whatever you want.  Of course, since most neo-nazis promote violence, and I'm sure you don't it is a moot point.  But he can march and protest just as much as you.  Again I state that I personally do not tolerate that kind of behavior either, but I also don't state that they shouldn't be allowed to display their opinion either.  If their opinion causes people to be hurt or harmed, then yes they do need to stop.
Oh, the dreaded spectre of moral relativism rears its fugly head.
No, we cant say that some opinions are worth more than others.  That'd be undemocratic, dontchaknow.  We cant say that some opinions dont deserve the time of day or to be expressed.  That some opinions are just flat out wrong.  No, no.  Every opinion is equal to every other opinion.  It may not be right for me, but it might be right for you.
I evacuate myself all over such a stance.
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Strings

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You're "evacuating yourself" all over a stance that allows you your rights then, Rabbi.

 At current, your Hypothetical Neo-Nazi Neighbor's beliefs are looked at by our society with contempt: while he has a right to his beliefs, and the right to express his opinion, most in society would look on those beliefs with contempt. On the other hand, your "anti-Nazi" beliefs are considered acceptable, even commendable.

 But what happens if/when society shifts, and the acceptability of those beliefs switch?

 Right now, you're (basically) advocating the violation of one's First Amendment rights because the viewpoint espoused is unpopular. But, if we do that to THIS set of beliefs, are you going to be so supporting of such violations when the shoe's on the other foot? It IS within the realm of possibility that antisemitism could become "socially acceptable", at which point the roles reverse.

 For that matter, what about "pro-gun" views? Conservative views in general? There's a fairly large portion of society right now that sees such as "dangerous", and "not worth protecting". Where, exactly, do you draw the line there?

 Going back to your Hypothetical Neo-Nazi, I think I can illustrate the point (and how I look at it). If all he's doing is saying "The Nazis had the best form of government.", or even just "The Nazis made the most scientific advancements.", then we pretty much have to let him go ahead and believe/say what he wants (of course, we are well within our rights to point and laugh). If, however, he started with things like "The Nazis should have been allowed to finish the job.", or "The Jews are subhuman, and should be locked away from society.", then something needs to be done to kinda keep him quiet.

The Rabbi

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Warning: Slippery Slope Fallacy ahead.
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Strings

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It's not a fallacy.

 Wasn't all that long ago that anti-Semitism was consdiered "acceptable". Times changed, and now it's not. But we could go back to that...

 Basically, if you deny the rights to one, you deny the rights to all. Not the world I want to live in. YMMV

The Rabbi

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It's not a fallacy.

 Wasn't all that long ago that anti-Semitism was consdiered "acceptable". Times changed, and now it's not. But we could go back to that...

 Basically, if you deny the rights to one, you deny the rights to all. Not the world I want to live in. YMMV

You're right: it isn't slippery slope,its the fallacy of the beard.  What a great term.
Yes, if we dont accept this horrible opinion as valid, then we can't accept even good opinions as valid.  Sounds pretty fallacious to me.

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Slippery Slope
Alias:

    * Argument of the Beard
    * Fallacy of the Beard

Quote&

    &f once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination. Once begin upon this downward path, you never know where you are to stop. Many a man has dated his ruin from some murder or other that perhaps he thought little of at the time.
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/slipslop.html
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Strings

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Ok Rabbi, then outline what you consider "acceptable" viewpoints. Let's see how many points would strip me (and quite a few other members here) of our rights in Rabbiland.

 ANY opinion is "valid", as opinions can't be wrong (by the simple fact that they aren't required to BE fact)

 Wait a sec... why AM I bothering to argue with you?

BrokenPaw

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Rabbi,

No one is suggesting that this hypothetical neo-Nazi's opinions are "acceptable".  They're saying he has a right to have them.

If you suggest that he does not have a right to his opinions, then you support the idea of thought-crime.  Anyone who has an opinion that is not on your short list of "acceptable" would therefore be subject to sanction.  I defy you to answer Strings' challenge; what sanctions would all of us be under, for having viewpoints that The Rabbi, Ultimate Arbiter Of What We May Think, finds to be unacceptable?

Tolerance of someone's ideas and acceptance of them are not the same thing.  Yet you argue as if they are.  Is this mere unwillingness to accept that your viewpoint is not logically consistent, or is it deliberate obduracy?

-BP
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Tuco

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Regardless of the Dictionary du Jour, acceptance and approval are two very different things.

When trying to reconcile event/positions/colors/opinions/incidents within the psyche, one must first acknowledge they happened,
e.g. "I accept that the Rabbi voices strong opinions on economics here on APS"
That happens.  I can't change it.  I don't have to like it.

Acceptance is an intermediate step between stimulus and passing judgment. 
Acceptance acknowledges fact.  Period.

Approval is favorable judgment. 
e.g. "I approve of the Rabbi using APS to pass his economic opinions as fact.  And he's got a friendly, persuasive tone."
Approval is the acknowledgment that I can agree with a certain set of opinions/motivators/politics/theories.

Two different things, approval and acceptance. 
Learn that and live life a little easier.

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The Rabbi

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Ok Rabbi, then outline what you consider "acceptable" viewpoints. Let's see how many points would strip me (and quite a few other members here) of our rights in Rabbiland.

 ANY opinion is "valid", as opinions can't be wrong (by the simple fact that they aren't required to BE fact)

 Wait a sec... why AM I bothering to argue with you?

No, any opinion is not valid.  Some opinions are simply wrong.  Demonstrably so.  No one should be prosecuted for holding opinions.  They should be prosecuted for expressing them.
Why are you bothering to argue with me?  I don't know, since you are wrong.
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Gewehr98

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I grow weary of this.

Closed.
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

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