Author Topic: Another government bailout  (Read 12724 times)

Gewehr98

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Re: Another government bailout
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2008, 07:14:14 AM »
Yup.

White Corn.  I'll make some Field Corn tortillas this week and give them to my undocumented workers.

I should take video.  grin
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roo_ster

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Re: Another government bailout
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2008, 08:22:17 AM »
MW mentioned power loss, which was an incorrect way of describing BTU/gallon.

Of which eth has less than gasoline.

eth: 76K BTU/gallon
gasoline: 116K BTU/gal

So, eth has 65% the energy content of gasoline or 35% less energy per gallon.

Or, MW could be describing the energy lost when translating corn form the cob to the fuel tank, which requires ~98K BTUs to do so for 1 gal of eth.  In contrast, it costs 22K BTU to get a gal of gasoline into an auto's fuel tank.

I am sure there will be an "alternative" fuel for our autos in the future.  Ethanol won't be it.  Even with fed.gov loading the dice, eth is a bad bet for the majority.  It does benefit some small minority.

The old story of concentrated benefits and dispersed costs.

====================

I wonder, did fed.gov subsidize the shift from whale oil and horse & buggy to automobiles, or was that left to sort itself out?

====================

If one really wants to do one's best to save energy used for transportation, keeping ones current auto in tip-top shape is the answer.  Purchasing a new, more fuel-efficient auto will likely incur an energy hit far exceeding the benefit gained from the difference in fuel usage.  The same logic works for cash.
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roo_ster

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longeyes

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Re: Another government bailout
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2008, 11:59:41 AM »
Quote
t is the function of the Fed to ensure orderly markets. The failure of Bear Stearns would have unleashed a whirlwind.

So I hear.

And it is the function of the orderlies to ensure a nice quiet asylum.  As you realize, you can't have orderly markets when you have a spending-addicted Congress, a consuming-addicted public, and no shortage of pushers wearing thousand-dollar suits on Wall St.
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The Rabbi

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Re: Another government bailout
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2008, 12:05:32 PM »
Quote
t is the function of the Fed to ensure orderly markets. The failure of Bear Stearns would have unleashed a whirlwind.

So I hear.

And it is the function of the orderlies to ensure a nice quiet asylum.  As you realize, you can't have orderly markets when you have a spending-addicted Congress, a consuming-addicted public, and no shortage of pushers wearing thousand-dollar suits on Wall St.

It is all a plot by GeorgeWBushDickCheneyHaliburton to deprive honest Americans of their due.
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thebaldguy

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Re: Another government bailout
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2008, 02:58:47 PM »
This is just the most recent of several federal "infusions" into the credit market in the last several months. I have lost track of the total so far, but I think it's in the neighborhood of $750 billion.

Yes, banks are being bailed out with this federal money. They know they are too big to let fail. They have no incentive to stop lending to people with bad credit as they know the feds will not let a bank fail due to the FDIC. I wonder what will happen if banks fail to pay back these low interest loans provided by the fed. I think nothing.

I have yet to see any CEOs of losing financial institutions take a pay hit yet. I know my raise was minimal (my employer is a financial institution with connections to the dying mortgage market) because "the company is going through some tough times".

This pattern will continue. Banks/financial institutions will demand money for the dying credit market with the fed creating money to give to them.

The Rabbi

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Re: Another government bailout
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2008, 03:01:38 PM »
JP Morgan buying Bear Stearns, for $2/share.

So much for gov't bailout.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Another government bailout
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2008, 03:04:42 PM »
Bear Stearns practices of the last few years remind me of what I've read of Miliken's junk-bond house in the 1980's.


Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Another government bailout
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2008, 04:04:36 PM »
Yep, looks like $2 a share for Bear Sterns.  Three days ago they were trading at $60 a share.  A month ago it was $90 a share.

Bear's chairman, James Cayne, owns 5,600,000 shares.  He lost $500,000,, half a billion dollars, of his own personal wealth.

Bear's CEO, Alan Schwartz, owns a bit more than 1,000,000 shares, so he "only" lost ninety million dollars personally.

Some "bailed out", eh?  So much for the government serving their corporate overlords.

I can't wait to see what the market does tomorrow morning.

Paddy

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Re: Another government bailout
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2008, 04:15:29 PM »
Fine by me when they cannibalize each other. Maybe taxpayers dodged the bullet this time.  But this may just be the first of many, as the mortgage backed securities come home to roost.  The fed has already said it 'will do whatever it takes' to keep the wealthy speculators afloat, so it ain't over yet.

Manedwolf

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Re: Another government bailout
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2008, 04:59:02 PM »
I suspect this is going to get far worse before it gets better.
Quote
Quote
March 17 (Bloomberg) -- Asian stocks, U.S. index futures and the dollar tumbled, while bond futures rose, after the Federal Reserve cut its discount interest rate at an emergency meeting and JPMorgan Chase & Co. agreed to buy Bear Stearns Cos.

All Asian stock benchmarks open for trading fell, led by National Australia Bank Ltd. in Sydney and Mitsubishi UFJ Financial Group Inc. in Tokyo. The dollar sank to a record low against the Swiss franc and a 12-year low against the yen.

``It's dire,'' said Angus Gluskie, who helps manage the equivalent of $500 million at White Funds Management in Sydney. The Fed's actions are ``indicative of the very significant credit issues we've got globally at the moment. And what we've seen with Bear Stearns is just another step in the process.''

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080&sid=ae5jTiBwIyVA&refer=asia

That isn't good.

What this reminds me of, now, is in the movie "Titanic", when they'd hit the iceberg and were unsure of the damage. The lights were still on, people were still standing on the bridge with tea, but far below, things were going bad in a way that would lead to the inevitable sinking.

Yeah, we'll recover. But we ARE going to have a recession, and it's going to hurt, no matter what the fed does.




longeyes

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Re: Another government bailout
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2008, 05:02:51 PM »
I see Alan Greedspan is up on his two aged gams again, yapping about how bad things look.  I seem to remember this alleged money maven having something to do with the rise of cheap money from about '95 on.
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K Frame

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Re: Another government bailout
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2008, 06:12:24 PM »
Yeah, it's going to get a LOT worse before it gets better.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Another government bailout
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2008, 04:49:06 AM »
Uh...

Quote
Dow    11,801.13    -344.61    (-2.84%)

Well. That's not good at all.

Also, Lehman might follow Bear Sterns later this week in going poof.

Quote
The problem is bigger than the Fed, said Meredith A. Whitney, an Oppenheimer financial services analyst. Trillions of dollars of securities were underwritten on the false assumption house prices could never go down on a national basis. That falsehood has put the entire financial system in a tailspin.

As for Bear itself, talk about carnage:

Quote
BSC 3.70, -26.30, -87.7%

PWN3D!

Paddy

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Re: Another government bailout
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2008, 08:45:08 AM »
If they keep dropping interest rates, pretty soon they'll have to pay people to borrow money.   laugh

Manedwolf

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Re: Another government bailout
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2008, 08:49:49 AM »
Morgan bought Bear Sterns for $240 million.

I would think even just the buildings and office equipment were worth more than that. Of course, they bought all the bad loans they're responsible for as well.

(I just found more on that, yes, it is!)

Quote
The 1.2 million-square-foot, 45-story structure built in 2001 is worth about $1.2 billion, based on the average $1,000 per- square-foot that comparable office space in the city is currently fetching.

And...

Quote
Shareholders of Bear Stearns will get stock in JPMorgan equivalent to about $2 a share, compared with $30 at the close on March 14, the New York-based companies said in a statement late yesterday.

Ouch!

BrokenPaw

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Re: Another government bailout
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2008, 09:01:08 AM »
If they keep dropping interest rates, pretty soon they'll have to pay people to borrow money.   laugh
During the craze on zero-percent car loans, I was actually expecting some manufacturer or other to pull a negative-interest stunt like that.  It wouldn't have to be much of a percentage to be able to play the gimmick; even -0.1% would allow them to trumpet "The MegaCarManufacturer Sell-a-thon!  Where we pay you to buy!"  Any actual loss could be wrapped up in a "processing fee".

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Paddy

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Re: Another government bailout
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2008, 09:17:43 AM »
Yeah.  Anytime a car dealer 'gives' you something, you'll find it added on top of your new loan.

heh.

longeyes

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Re: Another government bailout
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2008, 10:49:20 AM »
When your basic problem is over-borrowing and lack of savings, dropping interest rates is not what you want to do. 

Savers and people on fixed income are getting royally screwed for being economically virtuous.

The idea is to create a nation of indebted government slaves.
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Paddy

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Re: Another government bailout
« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2008, 11:32:38 AM »
Exactly.  And as long as the dollar continues to plummet, it will only get worse.  From the Economist:

*The Economist, March 16, 2008:

"THERE seems to be no floor for the dollar at the moment. On March 13th, it fell below ?100 for the first time and hit a record low of $1.5624 to the euro. The greenback is even back below $2 to the pound, despite sterlings recent weakness. And on a trade-weighted basis, the American currency has hit yet another nadir.

Like a glutton at an all-you-can-eat buffet, there is almost an embarrassment of nourishment for dollar-bears. For those who focus on yield, there is the prospect of imminent rate cuts by the Federal Reserve, with analysts talking about 2%, or even 1%, as the eventual low. Meanwhile the European Central Bank seems determined to hold rates at 4%.

For those who are worried about the credit crunch, there is the failure of the Carlyle Capital bond fund and the short-lived boost given by the latest central-bank liquidity package. As David Bowers of Absolute Strategy Research has pointed out, America will have difficulty funding its current-account deficit until the credit crisis is sorted out.

For those who are worried about the American economy, the latest 0.6% monthly fall in retail sales will confirm their fears. (American data have, on average, looked weaker than Europes in recent weeks.) And for those who believe that real assets (like gold and oil) are more attractive than paper money, the rise in bullion to above $1000 an ounce and crude to $110 a barrel will confirm their prejudices.

What succour is there for the dollar bulls? One argument is that the Fed is being much more decisive than other central banks and thus the eventual recovery in the American economy will be faster and steeper. If that is the case, then American interest rates may start rising again next year, giving the currency yield support.

A second is that the dollars decline is now having an effect on the non-oil element of the trade deficit, and thus is steadily weakening one of the long-term bearish arguments. The final argument is that the dollar is now cheap on fundamental grounds (an argument that will seem convincing to any European tourist) and that, with sentiment almost universally negative, the only way is up.

The problem for the bulls is that when negative sentiment towards a currency sets in, it can be very hard to stop. There is a widespread perception that the American authorities are pretty relaxed about the dollars weakness.

And even if they did care, what could they do about it? They are hardly likely to raise interest rates with the financial sector and the economy in such poor shape."

BTW, Gold is now over $1K  laugh

Paddy

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Re: Another government bailout
« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2008, 12:11:11 PM »
And the only solution this guy has is to print money. 



This has been a long time coming.  We've transitioned from the world's largest creditor nation (pre-Reagan) to the world's largest debtor nation.  We produce damn near nothing anymore, so we've got damn near nothing to export.  Many companies fill their domestic hi tech jobs with foreigners because 1) they work cheaper, 2) our education system is so fubar'd, we don't produce enough competent people, anyway (see Bill Gates recent remarks on this subject).

The dollar's value has been kept artificially high, mostly because it has been the world standard for oil transactions.  That is changing, however, as the world loses faith in the dollar, and you will soon see oil bought and sold with other currencies (can you say 'Euros'?)

In the meantime, we're spending hundreds of billions on worthless military activities.  Nevermind we don't really have those hundreds of billions in the first place, we're borrowing them from China and the rest of the world.

This could very well be the beginning of a long downward spiral.  And, it's likely Barack Obama, who is entirely unequipped to deal with the office under normal circumstances,  will be the next POTUS.

The best advice is to store food and supplies and plant a vegetable garden.  You're gonna need it.  sad

grislyatoms

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Re: Another government bailout
« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2008, 12:21:47 PM »
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Manedwolf

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Re: Another government bailout
« Reply #46 on: March 17, 2008, 12:27:28 PM »
Dollar to Euro:



Dollar to Yuan:



Dollar to Yen:



This is why you can't just print more money, I think. If OPEC moves to the Euro instead of the petrodollar, well...

I sincerely hope that we do not do an Argentina.

Paddy

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Re: Another government bailout
« Reply #47 on: March 17, 2008, 12:45:01 PM »
It's like Uncle Ben is trying to bail water out of the Titanic with a teacup.

 March 17 (Bloomberg) -- Ben S. Bernanke's interest-rate cuts have touched off a vicious circle of doom for the dollar.

The Federal Reserve reduced the rate on direct loans to commercial banks by a quarter-point to 3.25 percent before Asian financial markets opened today. It will likely lower its target rate for overnight loans between banks tomorrow to at least 2 percent from 3 percent, according to futures traded on the Chicago Board of Trade. Lower borrowing costs work against the dollar by making fixed-income securities issued by the government less appealing to global investors.

``The relative return on U.S. assets is not attractive enough and we have moved back into looking for dollar weakness,'' said Robert Robis, a bond fund manager in New York at OppenheimerFunds Inc., which oversees $260 billion. Robis last month was betting the dollar would rally versus the euro.

If that weren't enough to make bears out of bulls, the weakest dollar since at least 1971 based on a Fed trade-weighted index is helping push oil, grains and metals, which are priced in the U.S. currency, to record highs. That in turn is causing economists to lower growth forecasts for the U.S. and preventing central banks concerned that inflation is accelerating from cutting interest rates, further undermining the dollar.

``The whole world feels there's inflation when a good part of that is the weak dollar itself,'' said Stephen Jen, head of global foreign-exchange research at Morgan Stanley in London. ``Watching the dollar plummet like this is very dangerous.''

Picking Up Steam

The dollar tumbled 6 percent in the past month against a basket of six major trading partners, the fastest pace of decline since May 2006. It fell to a record low against the euro of $1.5903 today, before trading at $1.5714, and depreciated to 95.76 against the yen, the weakest since 1995.

Barclays Capital Inc., BNP Paribas SA, Morgan Stanley, Standard Chartered Plc, Bank of America Corp. and Credit Suisse Group cut their forecasts for the dollar in the last two weeks.

European Central Bank president Jean-Claude Trichet and Japanese Prime Minister Yasuo Fukuda said last week in interviews the plunge is ``concerning'' and ``undesirable'' for growth. Goldman Sachs Group Inc. and Morgan Stanley strategists say that coordinated action by policy makers to stem the currency's slide is increasingly likely. In intervention, central banks buy and sell currencies to influence exchange rates.

`Down the Tubes'

``It's hard to stimulate an economy when the currency is going down the tubes,'' said David Malpass, the chief economist at Bear Stearns & Co. The New York-based firm expects the dollar will fall to $1.60 per euro in 12 months.

The U.S. economy may expand 1.4 percent this year, according to the median estimate of 82 economists surveyed by Bloomberg News this month. The median in March was for growth of 1.7 percent. As recently as September the Fed's target rate was 5.25 percent.

Global investors see little reason to own U.S. financial assets with the two-year Treasury yielding 1.28 percent today, or 1.97 percentage points less than similar-maturity German bunds. The gap is the widest since September 1993. Foreign purchases of U.S. financial assets slowed in each of the final three months of 2007, to a net $56.5 billion from $113.9 billion, according to the latest Treasury Department data.

As the currency fell, the UBS Bloomberg Constant Maturity Commodity Index of 26 commodities ranging from energy, metals, agriculture and live stock rose 43 percent in the past 12 months, the biggest increase since the index's inception in 1998. The price of a barrel of crude oil surged 96 percent in a year to an all-time high of $111.80 today.

Commodities Hedge

``A lot of people out there are using oil and other commodities as hedge against a falling dollar,'' said Simon Wardell, manager of energy research at Global Insight Inc. in London. ``We could get to $120 in oil if we continue to see weakness in the U.S. dollar.''

The drop in the currency is responsible for about a third of the 230 percent rise in commodities since 2002, with the rest mainly attributable to demand from developing nations such as China, according to Morgan Stanley. The ICE Dollar Index moved in unison with the price of crude oil more than 97 percent of the time in the last year, according to Bloomberg data.

Relief may be in sight. The International Monetary Fund in Washington said last month that oil prices may be peaking as growth slows. The median forecast of 34 analysts surveyed by Bloomberg is for the dollar to gain about 10 percent against the euro this year and 8 percent versus the yen as the Fed's rate cuts spark the economy in the second half of 2008.

``If the U.S. dollar turns higher or if the crude oil market reverses then we have a spiral working the other way,'' said Tim Evans, an energy analyst at Citigroup Global Markets Inc. in New York. The price of crude oil will at $70 by September, Evans said.

`Major Concern'

The ECB is one of more than 12 central banks that cited faster inflation as the reason for raising or keeping rates unchanged this year.

``The surge in oil prices is a major concern and I don't think it leaves us any room for a loosening of our monetary policy,'' said Axel Weber, member of the ECB's Governing Council, in Frankfurt on March 11.

Inflation in the euro zone rose at a 3.3 percent annualized pace last month, the fastest in 14 years, the European Union's statistics office in Luxembourg said March 14. Consumer prices in the U.S. were unchanged in February, the Labor Department said.

Kenneth Rogoff, the former chief economist at the IMF and now a professor at Harvard University, said the greenback may drop another 12 percent on a trade-weighted basis.

``This recession will be long and deep and when we get out of it, we'll have inflation,'' Rogoff said in an interview. ``Confidence in the dollar is down.''

To contact the reporters on this story: Bo Nielsen in New York at bnielsen4@bloomberg.net

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aS87YcPKuDDE&refer=worldwide

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Another government bailout
« Reply #48 on: March 17, 2008, 01:56:56 PM »
What's this?  More fearmongering from the people who've demonstrated they don't understand what's happening on Wall Street right now?

Yawn.


geronimotwo

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Stunned Bear Stearns investors bring legal claims
« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2008, 02:04:16 PM »
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080317/bs_nm/bearstearns_lawsuits_dc;_ylt=ApGgb1BhW2bBiXY0YtAUGbKs0NUE

Stunned Bear Stearns investors bring legal claims By Martha Graybow
31 minutes ago
 


NEW YORK (Reuters) - Angry Bear Stearns Co Inc (BSC.N) shareholders have wasted no time in bringing legal claims following the company's stunning stock collapse and $2-a-share fire sale to JPMorgan Chase & Co (JPM.N).

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 At least one federal lawsuit in New York seeking class- action status for alleged securities fraud was filed on Monday by an investor contending the company hid its true financial condition from shareholders.

Also filed was a lawsuit from a company worker who held Bear Stearns shares in his retirement portfolio and says the company failed to properly manage risks in the pension plan. That suit also seeks class-action status.

Other investors may bring cases challenging the company's pact to sell itself for a rock-bottom price, legal experts say. But courts are seen as unlikely to kill the buyout deal.

That is because the venerable investment bank, which agreed to the emergency deal under pressure from the U.S. Federal Reserve as the credit crunch widens, appears to have few other options short of filing for bankruptcy, legal experts say.

Shareholders "could move to enjoin the deal, but that's a tough hurdle," said Michael Kelly, a partner at law firm McCarter & English in Wilmington, Delaware, who specializes in defending corporations in litigation. "I'm sure the board is going to say this is the best option in our judgment."

Another lawyer, Ira Press of class-action firm Kirby McInerney, said "there is a possibility that investors will challenge the fairness of the deal, though I would suspect that at this point, Bear Stearns must be in dire straits" and that's why it agreed to the buyout.

The company is being sold for just $236 million. The deal's value is more than 90 percent below the company's Friday closing share price of $30.85. But JPMorgan said the price tag would total about $6 billion to account for litigation and severance costs.

In a lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court in Manhattan on Monday, investor Eastside Holdings Inc accused Bear Stearns as well as several officers and directors of issuing false and misleading statements that led to massive losses for investors.

The investor is represented by well-known plaintiffs' law firm Coughlin Stoia Rudman & Robbins LLP in San Diego.

Another suit, also in Manhattan federal court, was brought by a participant in the company's employee stock ownership plan. The complaint contends the firm breached its duties to fund investors because it continued "to offer Bear Stearns common stock as a plan investment option for participant contributions when it was imprudent to do so."

A Bear Stearns representative was not immediately available for comment.

Bear Stearns shareholders are exploring all legal avenues, say class-action lawyers who specialize in bringing lawsuits against large companies. A Web site, www.bearstearnsinvestors.com, set up by law firm Mark & Associates, was offering free legal consultations for Bear Stearns shareholders.

Plaintiffs' lawyers said they have been busy discussing potential claims with investors.

"I can't divulge privileged conversations, but shareholders don't contact me when they are happy with the way things are going with their investments," said Press, of New York-based Kirby McInerney.

"This is a stock that has gone from $50 to $2 literally overnight and I also know of people who had assumed that the worst had passed when it closed at $30," he said.

Another law firm, Schatz Nobel Izard in Hartford, Connecticut, said it has been contacted by both institutional and individual investors who bought the stock as recently as last week.

Some of these buyers, said partner Jeffrey Nobel, took their positions after Bear CEO Alan Schwartz said in a televised interview on Wednesday that the company did not see any pressure on its liquidity and had about $17 billion in excess cash on its balance sheet.

"You have investors who are upset because they feel as though the company was not truthful in reporting its financial condition," he added.

(Editing by Richard Chang/Andre Grenon)


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