Author Topic: Calling all theologians: Was revolting against Great Britain a sin?  (Read 2428 times)

natedog

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The way I understand it, Christianity teaches that people should submit to their masters/Kings/governers, as seen in this passage,"

Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. 16Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. 17Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king."
1 Peter 2:13-17

Wouldn't this mean that the original Patriots and fighters in the American Revolution were sinning by revolting against the Crown?

Ron

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Calling all theologians: Was revolting against Great Britain a sin?
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2005, 05:25:29 PM »
I am not a theologian or even a very good Christian so YMMV.

In context he was establishing seperation between "church" and "state".

The fear of the Romans was that Christ and his followers were setting up a new kingdom in opposition to Rome.

The short and long of it is be a good citizen wherever you are.

As far as rebellion against the crown,  that has always been a tricky one (in my mind at least) to justify scripturally.

I just don't see much wiggle room in the New Testament to justify war in general.

K Frame

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Calling all theologians: Was revolting against Great Britain a sin?
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2005, 05:32:31 PM »
EVERYTHING is a sin, depending on who you're talking to.
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Ron

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Calling all theologians: Was revolting against Great Britain a sin?
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2005, 05:35:33 PM »
True Mike,  but that doesn't advance the conversation much does it Smiley

The Rabbi

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Calling all theologians: Was revolting against Great Britain a sin?
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2005, 05:45:55 PM »
Quote from: Mike Irwin
EVERYTHING is a sin, depending on who you're talking to.
And if it isnt a sin it's mandatory.

[But I dont have a dog in this fight.]
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K Frame

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Calling all theologians: Was revolting against Great Britain a sin?
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2005, 05:47:47 PM »
OK, how about this.

Yes, it may have been a sin, but our Founding Fathers all went to church, confessed, and were forgiven.

No more problems. Smiley
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Stand_watie

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Calling all theologians: Was revolting against Great Britain a sin?
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2005, 06:52:42 PM »
Yes, I think it was (although I'm not a theologian).

Romans 13
Submission to the Authorities
    1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Paul I think was referring to Rome, which was a more brutal master to Judea than 18th century Britain to the colonies. It's important to remember though, that in the system we currently live under, the people are the rulers with God given rights codified by the Constitution. That said, like Rahab's lie, I think it worked out for the best.

Romans 8
And we know that in all things, God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to His purpose."

My quandary justifying my theological preferences vs. my political views on this subject might be well summed up by words frequently attributed to Eric Blair (George Orwell)

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
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Perd Hapley

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Calling all theologians: Was revolting against Great Britain a sin?
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2005, 08:16:05 PM »
I have heard this argument before, but I think it misapplies the scripture in question, which speaks to crime, not full-scale, forthright revolution.

Quote
Romans 13
1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted...
This may seem off-topic, but bear with me.  The New Testament clearly establishes that believers are not to submit when asked to break the law of God.  Peter sets forth this principle clearly in Acts 5.  Christ, though, was the main example of this; and the church he established was illegal for much of it's early existence (and has been in various parts of the world ever since).  As Paul was thoroughly familiar with this context, having been the persecutor and the persecutee, he clearly was not teaching a total, blind obedience to authority.  But this applies to the American Revolutionaries only if Britain asked them to break God's law.  Perhaps it may be argued that the Americans of the Revolutionary era would have acted in a cowardly, neglectful and unloving (and therefore antiscripural) way to their descendants, if they did not free themselves from British rule.  

The main question is:  What authorities has God established, and how?  The American Revolutionaries believed that God placed sovereignty in the people, who instituted governments for their benefit and could "alter or abolish" their government as necessary.  
Quote
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government
To them, apparently, God establishes authority by allowing the people to choose a ruler or regime.  This would go a long way toward explaining the incompetence and cruelty governments have shown in the past few thousand years.  It also comports with God's establishing a monarchy for Israel, even though He advised otherwise (1 Samuel Cool.  Who is to say that God Himself did not act through the Revolution to establish the American nation and it's "authorities"?  Does this unChristian Revolution argument make it a sin to overthrow Hitler, Tojo, the Taliban, or Saddam Hussein?

In sum, Romans 13 condemns individual acts of lawlessness for selfish reasons, not regime change.
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Perd Hapley

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Calling all theologians: Was revolting against Great Britain a sin?
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2005, 08:29:17 PM »
Quote
I just don't see much wiggle room in the New Testament to justify war in general.
Where does the New Testament condemn warfare?  It is fundamental to Christian belief that God does not change, nor His morality.  The Old Testament portrays a God who commanded war and sometimes used it against His own people, to punish evil and bring about repentance.  

Further, the Bible generally recognizes the moral validity of self-defense, and war is often a national act of self-defense.
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Stand_watie

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Calling all theologians: Was revolting against Great Britain a sin?
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2005, 08:50:13 PM »
Quote
The New Testament clearly establishes that believers are not to submit when asked to break the law of God.
I agree very much with that statement.    The old testament established it as well, see Daniel 3.
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

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"Never again"

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Iapetus

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Calling all theologians: Was revolting against Great Britain a sin?
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2005, 07:58:50 AM »
According to Confucious, the government was set in place by the gods, so rebellion was a sin.

However if a rebellion succeeded then that indicated that the gods had withdrawn their support from the old regiem, and now supported the rebels, so it was okay after all.

griz

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Calling all theologians: Was revolting against Great Britain a sin?
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2005, 08:13:50 AM »
God loves winners?

By the way I, like the Rabbi, find myself dogless here.
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Iain

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Calling all theologians: Was revolting against Great Britain a sin?
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2005, 08:19:16 AM »
Yes it was.

We demand return of all American subjects and their assets to the British Crown.

Also note the Crown has changed it's paypal account and can now be found at iain@wealthybeyondhiswildestdreams.co.uk
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toro

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Calling all theologians: Was revolting against Great Britain a sin?
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2005, 08:36:34 AM »
We will give the British Crown all of the blue states.  The red states will stay as they are.  I think that is fair.
Go to:  http://www.electoral-vote.com/  to find out the states you now control.  The Queen will be pleased:)

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