Author Topic: The Carbine War Escalates  (Read 13053 times)

Leatherneck

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The Carbine War Escalates
« on: July 15, 2008, 02:02:49 AM »
Quote
DoD Buzz
Online Defense and Acquisition Journal
Friday, July 11th, 2008 6:23 am

Hill Dives Head First Into Carbine Debate

By Christian Lowe

Posted in International, Land

In a move that could ruffle the feathers of an Army command that views the
Colt Defense-built M4 as the best carbine in the world, a select group of
top senate staffers is gathering today to look at what could be the future
of the military's standard assault rifle.

About 30 legislative aides have signed up to attend a July 11 demonstration
at Marine Corps Base Quantico, just outside Washington, D.C., that will
feature weapons from various manufacturers vying to end the reign of the M16
and M4 as the U.S. military's most fielded personal weapon.

The range day is intended to help familiarize key lawmakers with possible
alternatives to the M16 and M4 once the exclusive contract with Colt Defense
of West Hartford, Conn., ends in the summer of 2009, a senior senate aide
told DoD Buzz.

"When you re-compete the M4 it shouldn't just be for the same thing we've
been building for the last 20 to 30 years," said the senior senate staffer
who requested anonymity because the issue is so sensitive with the Army.

Over the past year the Army has taken fire from M4 critics who say there are
better options available to troops, weapons that require less intensive
maintenance and fire more lethal rounds. While the Army - which is
responsible for procuring small arms for all the services - continues to
stand by the M4 and M16, a small group of tenacious senators, including
Oklahoma Republican James Coburn, have pressed the issue, forcing the
service to subject the M4 to rigorous environmental tests and pushing for
side-by-side competitions with several M4 alternatives.

"There's no urgent need to improve the M4, it's clearly working better than
the M16," the senior senate aide said. "Our concern is that, urgent or not,
we really ought to be improving it on par with technological improvements
[and] not be wedded to an older weapon just because that's the way we've
always been doing it."

While the aide declined to list all the companies participating in the demo,
congressional and industry sources say the shoot will feature the standard
5.56mm M4 carbine, the FNH USA-build Mk-17 - which fires a 7.62mm round -
and a modified "M4-style" rifle that fires a new 6.8mm special purpose
cartridge round, among others.

The 6.8mm SPC round was born of a 6-month program launched by the
interagency Technical Support Working Group which looked into how an M4 or
M16 could be easily modified to fire a round that had better ballistic
characteristics than the current arsenal when fired from a short barrel.

According to the TSWG, the so-called "modified upper receiver group" that
accommodates the 6.8mm round "can be installed on [government-issued] M4
carbine lower receivers by operators in the field quickly and without tools
for an immediate, considerable increase in projectile weight, surface area,
and on-target terminal performance."

"The 6.8mm MURG offers improved combat capability and user survivability
over comparable 5.56mm platforms," a TSWG statement said.

A consistent criticism of the M4 has been the 5.56 round's perceived lack of
stopping power. A 2006 Center for Naval Analyses report conducted for the
Army showed 30 percent of Soldiers surveyed wanted a rifle with a more
deadly round.

"Across weapons, Soldiers have requested weapons and ammunition with more
stopping power/lethality," the report said.

And one special operations Soldier who spoke to DoD Buzz couldn't agree
more.

"I know that when I'm shooting at someone I want to be confident that when I
hit him, he's going to go down," the Special Forces operator said during a
recent interview. "That's why I like the AK and its 7.62 round. It'll drop
whatever you're aiming at."

The Army brushes off such criticism, saying lethality is closely tied to
marksmanship. If you hit a target in the right place, you'll stop him, Army
leaders argue.

The point of the July 11 test shoot is to allow manufacturers to showcase
their M4 alternatives before an audience that's becoming more influential on
small arms procurement decisions. The senate group tried to hold a similar
demo last year, but the Army abruptly pulled out when news reports of the
event leaked out, senate sources said.

Participants will have the opportunity to observe the effects of different
caliber rounds in ballistic jelly, be shown how to fire each weapon and, of
course, there will be some hands-on time as well.

Colorado Democratic Sen. Ken Salazar is heavily involved in the M4
alternative push and wants a competitive process that rewards the kind of
innovation that leads to a host of choices when the M4 is re-bid in June of
next year.

"Senator Salazar's concern is that the process itself could stifle industry
innovation, it can result in lower weapons reliability and it can increase
costs," said Salazar spokesman, Matt Lee-Ashley.

"He's going to work through the Army and the Armed Services Committee to
make sure that when [the M4] is re-competed next June the process is open,
that it's based on performance-based requirements and that it encourages
industry innovation."

What say you riflemen?

TC
TC
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Lennyjoe

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Re: The Carbine War Escalates
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2008, 03:05:40 AM »
I say listen to the guys on the ground shooting the bad guys. For me, I like the ballistics of the 6.8 and the fact that the lower stays the same.

wmenorr67

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Re: The Carbine War Escalates
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2008, 03:11:31 AM »
The M4 gets mixed reviews over here.  Thankfully I have never had to shoot at anything more than paper or plastic.

In addition to or even more so I wish that they would replace the M9 Berreta 9mm with .45.  If not a .45 then maybe a .40 or .357 SIG.  Gotta have more knock down power than a 9mm gives.  And shot placement is nice but at the sametime you don't always have time to get off well aimed shots.
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Leatherneck

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Re: The Carbine War Escalates
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2008, 03:45:45 AM »
Quote
I say listen to the guys on the ground shooting the bad guys.
Absolutely, Lenny. The problem arises when we ask five of the said guys and get five different opinions. Then, of course, there inevitably arises the informed judgement of the Generals inside the beltway. Overlaying all this is the vocal support/vested interests of congress and their staffers. This carbine/handgun question arises as regular as the sun about every five years, and never seems to go away with everybody satisfied and willing to shut up and move on.

There always has been the "Big Bullet" voice, though, which I personally subscribe to.

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Manedwolf

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Re: The Carbine War Escalates
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2008, 03:54:47 AM »
I hope Robinson Arms gets another try. They were excluded from the test last time because they forgot to put a BFA in the box. Bet someone lost their job over that one!

Manedwolf

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Re: The Carbine War Escalates
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2008, 03:58:22 AM »
The M4 gets mixed reviews over here.  Thankfully I have never had to shoot at anything more than paper or plastic.

In addition to or even more so I wish that they would replace the M9 Berreta 9mm with .45.  If not a .45 then maybe a .40 or .357 SIG.  Gotta have more knock down power than a 9mm gives.  And shot placement is nice but at the sametime you don't always have time to get off well aimed shots.

Wouldn't 9mm would be okay if they would just declare the Hague to be irrelevant since hollowpoints are not "cruel"?

I know I would not feel happy having to carry 9mm ball in my P7, because it'd just go right through with a small hole. I do feel quite good about carrying Winchester Ranger 127gr +P+ in it, and aside from unit armorers possibly having to replace the recoil spring more often, the Berettas can definitely handle it. In all tests, it expands very, very well.

taurusowner

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Re: The Carbine War Escalates
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2008, 04:04:55 AM »
The "which round" argument is not really the same as the argument over which rifle.  One can switch to a more reliable platform, like the 416, without changing the round from 5.56.  I think that would be best.  Maybe 6.8 would be good too.  But I definitely don't agree with the old timer "go back to ought 6 and 45" claims.  I would much rather carry more round, than fewer bigger rounds.  House fighting is not the realm of long range marksmanship.  There isn't time or space for well placed long range shots.  I'd rather fire three rounds of 5.56 and only hit with one, than fire one .30-06 and miss.

Same with 9mm.  More rounds means higher probability of a hit.  A miss with the biggest most potent round is still a miss.

wmenorr67

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Re: The Carbine War Escalates
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2008, 04:05:24 AM »
Actually under some circumstances the military can carry hollowpoints.
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Manedwolf

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Re: The Carbine War Escalates
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2008, 04:07:48 AM »
Actually under some circumstances the military can carry hollowpoints.

But in general use for everyone who gets an M9? And the best hollowpoints, not the generic Federal with an old, old design? Stuff like Win Ranger, Cor-Bon DPX w/Barnes bullet, Federal Hydrashock?

THAT sort.

xavier fremboe

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Re: The Carbine War Escalates
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2008, 04:08:13 AM »
Definitely subscribe to polling the guys on the lines.  Enough stories about the 5.56 not doing first shot drops, and I'd say we

I hunt exclusively with a rifle chambered for .223, but that's because it's quiet and I can sometimes get two or three deer at a time.  My shots are also 100m max.  But I'm using hollowpoints and strictly headshoot. 

If I've got to go with ball ammo, I'd rather have the 7.62, even with the muzzle climb.  PBS of all things had a side-by-side demo of an AK vs an M16/4.  The 7.62 shattered a cinderblock.  The 5.56 didn't.  I think I'd rather have the ability to eliminate hard cover.

I thought the Marines were getting away from sidearms for every rank below Lt. Col.?  Every Marine a rifleman, and all...
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wmenorr67

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Re: The Carbine War Escalates
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2008, 04:11:03 AM »
Actually under some circumstances the military can carry hollowpoints.

But in general use for everyone who gets an M9? And the best hollowpoints, not the generic Federal with an old, old design? Stuff like Win Ranger, Cor-Bon DPX w/Barnes bullet, Federal Hydrashock?

THAT sort.

AH, no.  Certain people doing certain missions are authorized hollowpoints.  The mission we were on last year we were authorized them, however we didn't have them issued, even though we had a couple of crates in the connex.  Plus they were the generic hollowpoints.
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HankB

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Re: The Carbine War Escalates
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2008, 04:22:46 AM »
Not being bound by military regulations, I can, and do, load my rifle with expanding ammo, and believe it will serve me well, should I ever need to use it for self defense.

But I would not like to depend on .223/5.56mm ball ammo in a combat situation, based on how I've seen it perform while varmint hunting.

OK, OK, human jihadis are different than small varmints, but just considering the relative size of the targets, I really would rather have something that hits harder if my target is likely to be shooting at me or trying to blow me up; I want the bad guy to go down right now when shot.

(Ditto for 9mm ball ammo . . . I often carry a 9mm, but it's loaded with +P or +P+ JHPs.)
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K Frame

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Re: The Carbine War Escalates
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2008, 05:22:11 AM »
Things haven't been the same since they pulled the .50-70 from service...
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StopTheGrays

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Re: The Carbine War Escalates
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2008, 05:58:11 AM »
Quote
A 2006 Center for Naval Analyses report conducted for the
Army showed 30 percent of Soldiers surveyed wanted a rifle with a more
deadly round.
So the other 70% do not or are happy with what they got?

Does any image illustrate so neatly the wrongheadedness of the Obama administration than Americans scrambling in terror from Air Force One?
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: The Carbine War Escalates
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2008, 06:37:50 AM »
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The problem arises when we ask five of the said guys and get five different opinions.

Very simple solution to that:

The Army/Marines have a basic infantry rifle that they issue to all troops.  You train with it at boot for the first x% of the time.

They then have a list of acceptable alternate rifles that are chambered in 5.56, 6.8, 7.62x39 and 7.62x51.  This list would probably include alternate M16/M4 uppers, M14's, FALs, AK's and a few other rifles.  They don't provide it... you provide it if you want it.  And magazines and replacement parts.  They'll provide ammo to the best of their ability.

You are still issued your typical M4/M16 and are responsible for maintaining it, but you have the option of going out into the field with an alternate suitable weapon that you provide.  If, for some reason, your weapon is malfunctioning prior to hitting the field, you still have the M4/M16 to fall back on.  Also, if your rifle's ammo is not available, you still have the 5.56 M4/M16 platform.

The immediate drawback to this concept would be the idea that everybody would be carrying different weapons with different cartridges in different magazines.  No ability to give ammo to a fellow soldier when you run out.

Chances are though, squads would be somewhat intelligent in this process and all decide to standardize on one particular rifle as a firing team.
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Manedwolf

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Re: The Carbine War Escalates
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2008, 06:47:17 AM »
Quote
The problem arises when we ask five of the said guys and get five different opinions.

Very simple solution to that:

The Army/Marines have a basic infantry rifle that they issue to all troops.  You train with it at boot for the first x% of the time.

They then have a list of acceptable alternate rifles that are chambered in 5.56, 6.8, 7.62x39 and 7.62x51.  This list would probably include alternate M16/M4 uppers, M14's, FALs, AK's and a few other rifles.  They don't provide it... you provide it if you want it.  And magazines and replacement parts.  They'll provide ammo to the best of their ability.

You are still issued your typical M4/M16 and are responsible for maintaining it, but you have the option of going out into the field with an alternate suitable weapon that you provide.  If, for some reason, your weapon is malfunctioning prior to hitting the field, you still have the M4/M16 to fall back on.  Also, if your rifle's ammo is not available, you still have the 5.56 M4/M16 platform.

The immediate drawback to this concept would be the idea that everybody would be carrying different weapons with different cartridges in different magazines.  No ability to give ammo to a fellow soldier when you run out.

Chances are though, squads would be somewhat intelligent in this process and all decide to standardize on one particular rifle as a firing team.

That would be an absolute nightmare for logistics, quartermasters, armorers and the entire parts acquisition process. And if YOUR personal rifle failed, it could get someone else killed.

The best solution I can see at this point is to give everyone an AR lower, and have a menu of possible uppers for different mission profiles. HK 416, standard M4 if you want it, or 6.8spc, comes with the mag, just like that.

Much simpler. One of the benefits of the AR platform is quick interchangeability. Why not use that?

El Tejon

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Re: The Carbine War Escalates
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2008, 06:48:06 AM »
BFA???

Bachelor of Fine Arts?
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Manedwolf

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Re: The Carbine War Escalates
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2008, 06:50:09 AM »
BFA???

Bachelor of Fine Arts?

Blank firing adapter.


El Tejon

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Re: The Carbine War Escalates
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2008, 06:50:57 AM »
Ah-ha!
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Boomhauer

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Re: The Carbine War Escalates
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2008, 06:52:40 AM »
Is HK going to try to get the POS XM-8 adopted?

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Manedwolf

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Re: The Carbine War Escalates
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2008, 06:53:58 AM »
Is HK going to try to get the POS XM-8 adopted?



I thought that was killed. There is, however, nothing wrong with the 416 gas piston upper.

Balog

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Re: The Carbine War Escalates
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2008, 07:40:02 AM »
Azredhawk, don't take this the wrong way but have you every been in the .mil?

I really, really shudder to think of the colossal cluster a system like that would cause. Not to mention it goes against a number of fairly basic tenants integral to the .mil being aable to act effectively.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: The Carbine War Escalates
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2008, 07:54:40 AM »
Whenever I've spoken with returning troops about the quality of their weapons, they usually say that the rifles and machineguns work well enough.  Some of them require more care and attention than others, but they all can be made to work without any real diffuculties, they say.  They all say they absolutely hate the M9, though.

My best friend did his first tour back in '03.  The only weapon he was allowed to carry was his issued M9, a gun which absolutely would not cycle.  He spent the entire initial invasion of Iraq with nothing to defend himself with except a single shot 9mm.   angry

I guess my point is that if Congress wants to re-evaluate which weapons are soldiers are issued, they should start with the M9, not the M4.

Perd Hapley

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Re: The Carbine War Escalates
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2008, 08:22:14 AM »
The M9 is not one of the more important weapons fielded.  That may not make your friend feel better, but it's true. 
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41magsnub

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Re: The Carbine War Escalates
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2008, 08:35:58 AM »
The M9 is not one of the more important weapons fielded.  That may not make your friend feel better, but it's true. 

If it was all I was carrying it would seem pretty damned important to me!   rolleyes