Author Topic: Fight over open carry gun policy in Texa  (Read 20473 times)

Joe Demko

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Re: Fight over open carry gun policy in Texa
« Reply #50 on: July 29, 2008, 03:39:56 PM »

The last thing in the world we need is a legal system that tells us what is legal as opposed to what is illegal. If it is not illegal, it is legal. If it is not illegal, just what is a cop going to arrest you and charge you with? Even if the law explicity says OC is legal, it would not change anything. A rogue cop could still arrest you and charge you with whatever he was going to charge you with if OC is not on the books.

Normally, I'd be inclined to agree with you.   PA is a very gun friendly state, on of the most so I'd say.  None the less, open carry is very uncommon here despite being legal.  As a result, since they don't see it often it does tend to agitate some folks and they call the cops who also get agitated.  I've seen it happen, myself.
Cops, it seems, are told at academy about what the law does address rather than all the myriad things it does not address and their default reaction to OC is that the carrier must be doing something wrong.
Change the cops or change the law; the way things are now OC is like requesting attention from John Law.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Fight over open carry gun policy in Texa
« Reply #51 on: July 29, 2008, 03:42:03 PM »
I thought the whole point of conservatism is the idea that the world can't be changed by legislation?
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Manedwolf

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Re: Fight over open carry gun policy in Texa
« Reply #52 on: July 29, 2008, 03:51:28 PM »
I thought the whole point of conservatism is the idea that the world can't be changed by legislation?

Wrong.

It's questioning whether the status quo needs to be changed, or whether it's doing fine as it is. In other words, "Is it working, or isn't it? If it's working, why do we need to spend all that money to change it?"

Read Goldwater.

seeker_two

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Re: Fight over open carry gun policy in Texa
« Reply #53 on: July 29, 2008, 03:55:41 PM »
I love when people want to impose hurdles to exercising rights because they dream up a situation that's never happened.  rolleyes
actually there is at least one case of an OCer in VA being mugged and his gun taken.

...and that's an important distinction because criminals have never taken guns away from LEO's who open carry.....

....Onion Field, anyone?.....
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Manedwolf

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Re: Fight over open carry gun policy in Texa
« Reply #54 on: July 29, 2008, 04:11:19 PM »
I love when people want to impose hurdles to exercising rights because they dream up a situation that's never happened.  rolleyes
actually there is at least one case of an OCer in VA being mugged and his gun taken.

...and that's an important distinction because criminals have never taken guns away from LEO's who open carry.....

....Onion Field, anyone?.....

The point I'm trying to make is that with a proper retention holster, it's nearly impossible for anyone but the person wearing it to get the gun out of it. Try it with someone you know. It's really hard to do.

But some people will wear guns in holsters that don't fit the gun, that are bigger than the gun, are those $5 meant-for-airsoft awful nylon ones, ill-fitting holsters that they can be pickpocketed right out of, that they'll FALL out of, or just those silly clips that also let stuff get into the trigger guard. Most popular with no-safety guns like Glock or Kel-Tec models, ironically!

I can see some basic safety rules regarding that, similar to not driving a vehicle in unsafe condition.

seeker_two

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Re: Fight over open carry gun policy in Texa
« Reply #55 on: July 29, 2008, 04:47:34 PM »
I love when people want to impose hurdles to exercising rights because they dream up a situation that's never happened.  rolleyes
actually there is at least one case of an OCer in VA being mugged and his gun taken.

...and that's an important distinction because criminals have never taken guns away from LEO's who open carry.....

....Onion Field, anyone?.....

The point I'm trying to make is that with a proper retention holster, it's nearly impossible for anyone but the person wearing it to get the gun out of it. Try it with someone you know. It's really hard to do.

But some people will wear guns in holsters that don't fit the gun, that are bigger than the gun, are those $5 meant-for-airsoft awful nylon ones, ill-fitting holsters that they can be pickpocketed right out of, that they'll FALL out of, or just those silly clips that also let stuff get into the trigger guard. Most popular with no-safety guns like Glock or Kel-Tec models, ironically!

I can see some basic safety rules regarding that, similar to not driving a vehicle in unsafe condition.

In that case, why don't we regulate the types of guns Texans can carry. No Glocks or Kel-Tecs or pistols without safeties or pistols with hammers that can be cocked back or pistols that can take more than 12 rounds (...'cause those are machine guns, doncha know...)....

How about people learning safe gun handling from people like us who offer to help....not any further "reasonable gun legislation"?.......
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Manedwolf

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Re: Fight over open carry gun policy in Texa
« Reply #56 on: July 29, 2008, 05:23:55 PM »
I don't think you have to go to that extreme.

Properly retaining holster for any sidearm of choice. And a weapon in good working order. After all, that's what "well regulated" meant...

Perd Hapley

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Re: Fight over open carry gun policy in Texa
« Reply #57 on: July 29, 2008, 05:27:50 PM »
I don't see a problem with basic safety requirements of retention. It's just like how you can't drive a car in unsafe condition on the road.

A holster with "adequate retention minimums" isn't a basic safety requirement like, say, working headlights.

And can I assume you're also OK with mandating basic safety requirements like trigger locks, no SA autos, smart guns, etc.?  Same thing, of course. 
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Manedwolf

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Re: Fight over open carry gun policy in Texa
« Reply #58 on: July 29, 2008, 05:37:02 PM »
I don't see a problem with basic safety requirements of retention. It's just like how you can't drive a car in unsafe condition on the road.

A holster without "adequate retention minimums" isn't a basic safety requirement like, say, working headlights.

And can I assume you're also OK with mandating basic safety requirements like trigger locks, no SA autos, smart guns, etc.?  Same thing, of course. 

I don't think that's the same at all. That sort of thing prevents the firearm from being used for its intended defensive purpose, decreasing safety. A proper retention holster increases safety.

And yes, people are stupid about it. Someone recently shot the bathroom in a Wal-Mart here because they were an idiot with a Glock stuck in their pants without a proper holster, and managed to catch the trigger when they pulled up their pants.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Fight over open carry gun policy in Texa
« Reply #59 on: July 29, 2008, 05:38:03 PM »
I thought the whole point of conservatism is the idea that the world can't be changed by legislation?

Wrong.

It's questioning whether the status quo needs to be changed, or whether it's doing fine as it is. In other words, "Is it working, or isn't it? If it's working, why do we need to spend all that money to change it?"

Read Goldwater.

I read Goldwater. And Reagan. And Buchanan. And Irving. And Scalia. And Sowell.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

seeker_two

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Re: Fight over open carry gun policy in Texa
« Reply #60 on: July 29, 2008, 05:39:54 PM »
I don't see a problem with basic safety requirements of retention. It's just like how you can't drive a car in unsafe condition on the road.

A holster without "adequate retention minimums" isn't a basic safety requirement like, say, working headlights.

And can I assume you're also OK with mandating basic safety requirements like trigger locks, no SA autos, smart guns, etc.?  Same thing, of course. 

I don't think that's the same at all. That sort of thing prevents the firearm from being used for its intended defensive purpose, decreasing safety. A proper retention holster increases safety.

And yes, people are stupid about it. Someone recently shot the bathroom in a Wal-Mart here because they were an idiot with a Glock stuck in their pants without a proper holster, and managed to catch the trigger when they pulled up their pants.

....and, because some people are idiots, we should have "reasonable gun legislation" to protect us all.....

....I think I've heard this tune before....
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Fight over open carry gun policy in Texa
« Reply #61 on: July 29, 2008, 05:41:36 PM »
So Manedwolf, what if my open-carry arm of choice isn't carried in a holster?

Do slings count as holsters?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Manedwolf

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Re: Fight over open carry gun policy in Texa
« Reply #62 on: July 29, 2008, 05:48:40 PM »
I don't see a problem with basic safety requirements of retention. It's just like how you can't drive a car in unsafe condition on the road.

A holster without "adequate retention minimums" isn't a basic safety requirement like, say, working headlights.

And can I assume you're also OK with mandating basic safety requirements like trigger locks, no SA autos, smart guns, etc.?  Same thing, of course. 

I don't think that's the same at all. That sort of thing prevents the firearm from being used for its intended defensive purpose, decreasing safety. A proper retention holster increases safety.

And yes, people are stupid about it. Someone recently shot the bathroom in a Wal-Mart here because they were an idiot with a Glock stuck in their pants without a proper holster, and managed to catch the trigger when they pulled up their pants.

....and, because some people are idiots, we should have "reasonable gun legislation" to protect us all.....

....I think I've heard this tune before....

You think nothing but "have a holster that keeps your firearm secure" is onerous?

MicroBalrog

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Re: Fight over open carry gun policy in Texa
« Reply #63 on: July 29, 2008, 05:56:27 PM »
So in Manedwolf's world, I can be imprisoned if my holster does not fit an arbitrary standard of retention, or if I choose to use a Barami grip.

Given Manedwolf's previously stated support for forced labor for those who violate NH's concealed carry permit laws, I shudder to think what the punishment for using a Barami grip would be.

And do slings count as holsters in Manedwolf's world?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

seeker_two

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Re: Fight over open carry gun policy in Texa
« Reply #64 on: July 29, 2008, 06:10:56 PM »
So in Manedwolf's world, I can be imprisoned if my holster does not fit an arbitrary standard of retention, or if I choose to use a Barami grip.

Given Manedwolf's previously stated support for forced labor for those who violate NH's concealed carry permit laws, I shudder to think what the punishment for using a Barami grip would be.

And do slings count as holsters in Manedwolf's world?

Hope he's not for public whippings.....  shocked
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Fight over open carry gun policy in Texa
« Reply #65 on: July 29, 2008, 06:21:48 PM »
Lest I be accused of putting words in Maned's mouth, he supports chain gang labor for people who violate gun laws, here and here.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Fight over open carry gun policy in Texa
« Reply #66 on: July 29, 2008, 06:39:42 PM »
Quote
You think nothing but "have a holster that keeps your firearm secure" is onerous?

As a legal requirement, yes, I think so.  But you need to clarify what you're after here.  At first, you seemed to be saying that the holster needs to have an anti-theft retention system like a thumb-break.  Now, you seem to be saying that the holster just needs to keep the gun from falling out.  The latter is less onerous, but I'm not sure the issue really warrants legislation.  On the other hand, if we simply prosecute people who leave their guns lying around, or drop them...

Quote
That sort of thing prevents the firearm from being used for its intended defensive purpose, decreasing safety. A proper retention holster increases safety.

"It increases safety" is a frighteningly broad basis for public policy.  Read Goldwater.  Tongue
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Nitrogen

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Re: Fight over open carry gun policy in Texa
« Reply #67 on: July 30, 2008, 12:16:24 AM »
I think you guys missed my point, or I didn't describe it very well.

All I meant is that you "must use a holster where the gun doesn't fall out on its own.  If it falls out, you are liable for a fine or jail if a child gets the gun, etc.

Just saying, "your gun can't fall out of its holster, no matter how you want to accomplish that."

I'm just as against "Holster must use a retention device such as x, y, or z" as you are, I'm proposing an alternative to that.  Make sense?
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Fight over open carry gun policy in Texa
« Reply #68 on: July 30, 2008, 12:51:53 AM »
Even a better idea:

If your gun falls out, or you otherwise drop it - nevermind if there was a holster or not - you can be sued in a civil court AND arrested for negligence. The forms of punishment would probably have to be linked to how egregious the negligence is, because while dropping a gun on your lawn is dumb, dropping it on a playground is umpteen times dumber.

If you can manage to carry a gun with a Barami Grip and not lose it, more power to ya.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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seeker_two

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Re: Fight over open carry gun policy in Texa
« Reply #69 on: July 30, 2008, 01:08:56 AM »
Even a better idea:

If your gun falls out, or you otherwise drop it - nevermind if there was a holster or not - you can be sued in a civil court AND arrested for negligence. The forms of punishment would probably have to be linked to how egregious the negligence is, because while dropping a gun on your lawn is dumb, dropping it on a playground is umpteen times dumber.

If you can manage to carry a gun with a Barami Grip and not lose it, more power to ya.

I'm good with that.....of course, Austin PD may have some problems...

http://www.statesman.com/search/content/news/stories/local/07/09/0709gun.html

Quote
Moms, kids find officer's loaded gun in South Austin park
Police reviewing the incident, officials say.
By Tony Plohetski
AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF
Wednesday, July 09, 2008

Editor's note: The original posting of this story briefly included a mug shot that was not officer Daniel Eveleth, but another K-9 officer.

A group of mothers and children at a Southwest Austin park found the loaded gun of an Austin police officer who did not know for hours that his weapon was missing, officials said Tuesday.

Austin police Lt. Donald Baker said supervisors are reviewing how officer Daniel Eveleth's Glock handgun might have fallen from his holster while he was training a police dog about 5 a.m. Monday at the Circle C Ranch Metropolitan Park on Slaughter Creek.

Department officials said Tuesday that they could not specifically describe what training exercises Eveleth was conducting with the dog, why they were being done at pre-dawn hours or the type of holster he was wearing.

Officers responding to the park after one of the mothers called 911 learned that the gun was registered to Eveleth, who has been an officer for about 11 years and worked as a Travis County jailer before joining Austin police.

They returned the weapon to Eveleth at his home about four hours after he left the park and told him where it had been found, Baker said.

"He had no idea he was missing the weapon from his holster," Baker said. "It doesn't look like it was done in negligence."

Calls to Eveleth's home phone were not answered.

Wuthipong Tantaksinanukij, vice president of the Austin Police Association, said Eveleth is "devastated."

"First and foremost, we are thankful that nobody got hurt," Tantaksinanukij said. "No one feels that more than the officer himself."

He said the incident raises questions about the type of equipment they use.

Austin police policy requires officers to secure their weapons "by every practical means."

Danielle Pieranunzi, who went with her baby to the park to walk with a friend, said she first noticed the gun on a playground slide.

"It was in very plain view," she said. "It wasn't hidden or anything."

Police said it was unclear whether the gun had been left on the slide or placed there by someone else.

Pieranunzi said one of the mothers moved the gun from the slide and propped it between a couple of tree branches out of the reach of children. Several of them guarded the weapon until officers arrived, she said.

"You don't think a policeman would lose his gun," she said. "It's pretty surprising and kind of disappointing."

tplohetski@statesman.com; 445-3605


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LAK

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Re: Fight over open carry gun policy in Texa
« Reply #70 on: July 30, 2008, 03:12:19 AM »
While I do not dismiss the retention issue as insignificant - a Vermont bill allowing those who choose to do so carrying concealed would be better than having bureaucrats mandate specific holsters.

When it comes down to the bottom line, anyone who cannot fight off or resist someone strongarming their piece from a holster will not be much of an obstacle to a thug with a pair of heavy duty shears or a blade and their parted leather belt.

In states that allow open carry already there really are not any significant, if any, cases of gun snatches from open holsters.

MechAg94

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Re: Fight over open carry gun policy in Texa
« Reply #71 on: July 30, 2008, 06:16:21 AM »
I think that if the govt wants retention holsters, it would be better to do some sort of safety campaign or subsidize the purchase somehow instead of making it a crime or misdemeanor.  I like wearing a seat belt and insist on anyone in my truck wear one, but I don't really think it should be a law. 
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freakazoid

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Re: Fight over open carry gun policy in Texa
« Reply #72 on: July 30, 2008, 03:40:15 PM »
Off topic - What is a Barami grip?
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

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Nitrogen

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Re: Fight over open carry gun policy in Texa
« Reply #73 on: July 30, 2008, 05:42:26 PM »
Off topic - What is a Barami grip?

Here's how it "works"
http://www.baramihipgrip.com/hipgrip.html
(or should I say, operates)
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