Author Topic: Universal Health Care  (Read 20167 times)

Chris189

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Universal Health Care
« on: November 05, 2008, 11:12:29 PM »
Im giving a speech on why it is not the answer. I honestly know very little about the subject. Anyone have some suggestions on where to start or some good sites/articles?

Thanks,
Chris

charby

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2008, 11:24:43 PM »
Google: Reusing Syringes in Canada

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Grylady

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2008, 11:43:17 PM »
  How about googling "Hawaii ends health care."  I'd give you a link, but it seems I'm a computer idiot... :|

MikePGS

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2008, 11:57:21 PM »
Capitalism attracts talent. If a health care system is merit based, then the best physicians will garner the top pay. If everyone gets paid the same or if there is no opportunity to make more money for performing better, people who would have become physicians will gravitate to other fields. I know this might actually surprise some people, but not every physician is in it for their love of humanity. And thats a good thing. I for one don't know if my daughters orthopedic doctor loves children or not, but I do know that he's very good at his job, and am thankful that the medical profession pays well enough to attract intelligent people like him. If i were living in a country with socialized medicine, i really would have no guarantee that he is any better than another physician, and for all I know its someone who couldn't make it in any other profession, but was just smart enough to squeak by.
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2008, 01:12:43 AM »
Even assuming that physicians would continue to receive their current pay, universal health care cannot be sustained financially.

A top-quality health insurance policy costs about $1000 a month. Even a stripped-down high deductible policy is between $600 and $700 a month.

There are roughly 100,000,000 households in the US, with an average of 2.5 people in each household above the age of 5. The cost for stripped-down coverage for everyone would be somewhere between $50,000,000,000 to $70,000,000,000 a month to cover every household, or $600,000,000,000 to $840,000,000,000 a year.

While one can argue that having such a large pool would reduce the rates of coverage, that argument is offset by the almost indisputable point that government bureaucracies are nowhere as efficient as private companies, and that any reduction in rates would be offset by the cost of the bureaucracies.

But what of the families who cannot pay the high deductibles? The system would have to somehow adjust for them by raising costs across the board, or going to a "progressive" system where those who make more money pay more into the pool. For those in the upper middle class or higher, the costs would be greater than purchasing insurance on their own.

It should be apparent at this point that our country can't afford to pay nearly a trillion dollars a year for health coverage, so something must be sacrificed. In Canada and other countries, that something is the quality and extent of care.

In 1990, my father--then 73 years old--needed quintuple bypass surgery. Fortunately he had a Cadillac insurance plan as part of his General Motors pension, and lived to 91 years old. Had he lived in Canada or another country with socialized medicine, he wouldn't have qualified for such surgery because of his age, and would never have lived the additional 18 years.

Even with the reduced level of coverage, the Canadian system costs more than the taxpayers can bear, so the cost is spread by taxing things like gasoline, milk, alcohol, cigarettes and other products. If you go to Sault St. Marie Michigan on a Friday night, you'll see the bridge from the Ontario side packed bumper to bumper with cars headed to the American side to buy just about everything for a lot less money.

Even ignoring the above points, the fact is that the percentage of people who lack health insurance is relatively small, and there are much less expensive ways to address the problem of the uninsured than by handing health care over to the same people who brought us the meltdown of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

For most people, the problem isn't a lack of health insurance, but a lack of portability. People are stuck at jobs they'd like to leave but can't because they would lose their health insurance. McCain's idea of tax credits to purchase health insurance sounded positive, at least to the extent that any government plan to help pay for health care can sound positive.

The irony of this situation is that it's not the people at the lowest end of the economic ladder who are affected, as they get top-notch treatment at any hospital at no cost. It's those in the middle who are not on welfare but can't afford $1000 a month who are squeezed.


RaspberrySurprise

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2008, 02:03:47 AM »
Quote
Even with the reduced level of coverage, the Canadian system costs more than the taxpayers can bear, so the cost is spread by taxing things like gasoline, milk, alcohol, cigarettes and other products. If you go to Sault St. Marie Michigan on a Friday night, you'll see the bridge from the Ontario side packed bumper to bumper with cars headed to the American side to buy just about everything for a lot less money.

I'm pretty sure Canada is what's keeping my little town afloat.

I'll have to ask my friend who has dual citizenship and has actually dealt with the Canadian medical system to remind me of it's horrors.
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Iain

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2008, 03:25:11 AM »
As someone who has had contact with the UK NHS his whole life I tend to find that all those with knowledge of its terrible horrors have no actual experience with it. There's always a friend of a friend who had his head amputated accidentally after waiting 18 years for surgery on a burst appendix though.

It is far from perfect. Very far from perfect. There are waiting lists, MRSA, clostridium difficile, somewhat underpaid staff, bureaucracy and the rest. Mistakes have been made with me, but on the flip side - my life was very definitely altered immensely and probably saved by a very dedicated team. My experiences in the last 13 years of diagnosis have been overwhelmingly positive.

Back in the days of the roundtable on THR I did detail my long term health situation and my concerns over the US model. I'm not about to go there again on this forum, too personal. People made impassioned defences of the US healthcare system, made passionate attacks on the NHS, made passionate attacks on me (or ran very close) usually for my ideological impurity. Wild eyed speculation about how much better I would be if I were a US citizen was engaged in etc. Aside from the latter it was a good and interesting discussion.

The only firm conclusion I came to was that with healthcare you take it (good and hard) one way or another, and better the devil I know. Or you know.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 03:29:36 AM by Iain »
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De Selby

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2008, 04:47:45 AM »
Monkeyleg,

Here in Australia, you can get a top of the line, entirely private healthcare package for under $100 per month.

It does not actually cost $1000 per month to sustain the care that we get-it's just that between the cost of the care and the consumer, there are enormous bureaucracies that have to be paid for.  That is waste, and the American system, dollar for dollar, has more of it than any of its industrial counterparts. 

In terms of quality and wait, it's no worse here than in the states, and in some areas better.  For gp needs, ie, you get a cut, you need a routine test, you have a lingering cough...you stroll in to the neighborhood primary care center, wait about 15 minutes, and you see a Doctor.  That cost is covered by your yearly healthcare tax (about 700 to 1000 dollars for the whole year) which funds the public health system, so you do not pay out of pocket at the time you receive the service.

In my experience, there is absolutely no field in which the US healthcare system excels over all of its rivals aside from profitability for insurance companies.  In that department it takes the gold standard, no question.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 04:51:34 AM by shootinstudent »
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Rudy Kohn

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2008, 07:19:51 AM »
What about medical research?  A socialized system will inevitably reduce the incentives for research, as price controls will prevent innovators from reaping the benefits of their inventions.
Not to mention that I would way rather have my money go voluntarily to a private bureaucracy, than involuntarily to a massive government bureaucracy.

ProficientRifleman

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2008, 09:10:24 AM »
Universal food!  =D

Universal housing!  =)

Universal health care!  :lol:

Universal education!  :laugh:

All at the expense of "...them other people!"    :mad:


What do you give your DOG? Food, shelter, obedience training and a visit to the vet for shots?

Monkeyleg

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2008, 09:59:51 AM »
Shootinstudent, I think you've solved the United States' problem with health care. We'll just enroll our population in Australia's program and pay into it.

I'm skeptical that what you describe can exist, so I'll have to research the subject when I get a chance. $100 a month for top of the line health insurance is what I was paying in the 1970's, maybe even 1960's. And I was only in my teens or twenties then.  Our policy right now costs $1100 a month, my wife and I are in our 50's, no children, and no serious health problems. That policy is through the plumbers' union. If it were an individual policy it would cost over $1500 a month.

charby

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2008, 10:51:29 AM »
Shootinstudent, I think you've solved the United States' problem with health care. We'll just enroll our population in Australia's program and pay into it.

I'm skeptical that what you describe can exist, so I'll have to research the subject when I get a chance. $100 a month for top of the line health insurance is what I was paying in the 1970's, maybe even 1960's. And I was only in my teens or twenties then.  Our policy right now costs $1100 a month, my wife and I are in our 50's, no children, and no serious health problems. That policy is through the plumbers' union. If it were an individual policy it would cost over $1500 a month.

My wife and I are on an HMO group plan, I know HMO watch out, but how the local health care is set up where I live an HMO makes sense. The entire system here is all tied together so it works well. I was sceptical at first and had an different plan, but it hit my max out of pocket in one visit a couple years ago when I sick, so $2500 poorer I checked out the other plans, pros and cons and found out that the HMO worked best for me. My wife hates the plan because she has to go see her primary Dr first. I see my primary Dr every three-four months anyways due to past health issues, so it doesn't bother me any.

Long story short, I my plan costs $750 a month for both of us with my work picking up 90% of the cost of the premium. I could get paid a lot more money elsewhere but the benefit package I get figures out the same if I had less benefits elsewhere and got paid more.

Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

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Pb

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2008, 11:51:39 AM »
Desires for heathcare are unlimited.

The amount of healthcare is scarce.

If everyone consumed as much as they wanted, healthcare would be entirely used up and unavailable (ie, no more meds, hospital beds or doctor's time.)

There must be a method to limit the health care a person recieves, so that it will be available.

Every method of providing healthcare limits how much you use.  It is impossible to provide as much healthcare as society desires.

Under a free market, you choose how much healthcare to consume, based on how much you are willing to or can pay. People then conserve healthcare, as it costs them money to use it.  This frees up healthcare for others.  The money made providing it, provides incentives to create new healthcare (ie, makes it profitable to hire and train more doctors).  As more healthcare becomes available, due to increased capacity fueled by profits, the cost should drop (as it has done dramatically for elective surgery, like lasik).

Under socialized medicine, a person has no incentive to reduce usage of healthcare, as they do not have to pay more for consuming more.  Therefore, people use as much as possible.  Left unchecked, all healthcare would be consumed.  To prevent this, the goverment reduces use of healthcare by force- such as rationing care, waits, and denying services- or making people not want to use the care, such as providing terrible service.  The government MUST use one or some combination of these techniques to prevent the collapse of the system.

Private health insurance does create some problems in regards to overusage of care.  That is why elective healthcare- which is usually not covered by insurance- gets cheaper, which care that is covered gets more expensive.  However, it does provide some incentives to reduce usage- more generous plans are more expensive, and copays, deductables, etc.

McCain had some good ideas, such as make health insurance purchase by individuals tax deductable, and allowing people to purchase insurance from any state.

Standing Wolf

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2008, 11:55:18 AM »
Quote
Desires for heathcare are unlimited.
The amount of healthcare is scarce.

The beauty of the free market is that supply and demand inevitably achieve equilibrium. The horror of socialism is that only the party elite enjoy the fruits of other people's labor; everyone else is expected to share the misery and be grateful for whatever scraps government deigns to throw to the workers and peasants.
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2008, 12:23:18 PM »
Desires for heathcare are unlimited.

The amount of healthcare is scarce.

If everyone consumed as much as they wanted, healthcare would be entirely used up and unavailable (ie, no more meds, hospital beds or doctor's time.)

There must be a method to limit the health care a person recieves, so that it will be available.
Ya mean there are hard economic realities at play here?  We can't all have everything we want for free?

But... but... but.. Obama said we could have everything we want for free!

 ;/

Like it or not, folks, health care is a limited, finite resource.  It is also very valuable, in that lots and lots people really want it.  No amount of wishful thinking or government intervention will make it cheap.  The quantity and quality of health care we all want is expensive.  Period.

If someone promises to make health care cheap for you, then either he's only going to give you as much as you pay for (not much), or he's going to make someone else pay whatever costs you aren't paying.  There are no free lunches.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2008, 02:18:20 PM »
Quote
What do you give your DOG? Food, shelter, obedience training and a visit to the vet for shots?

 
Don't forget to spay or neuter your pet or other group you don't want reproducing....
 
 
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Northwoods

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2008, 02:39:00 PM »
While I have partially employer subsidized health insurance, there was so subsidy for my wife and kids, so we chose to go to the open market for their insurance.  In WA it's $199/month to cover SWMBO (27) and two crumb snatchers.  Add me into the mix (31) and it would have still been under $300/month.  Granted there's a $5000 annual deductible, $10,000/year out of pocket max, but if we don't spend that money we get to keep it (unlike the typical plan bandied about by Biden in the debates where the insurance company keeps whatever you don't spend).  With that plan we also get to contribute to an HSA ($5800 this year, $5950 next year) and since those contributions are fully tax deductible that'll save us about half the cost of the premium on our taxes.

So long as the fed.gov can be kept out of the health care business, at least beyond the extent that it already is, that kind of health insurance will do to the typical PPO and HMO plans what the 401k did to defined benefit pensions.
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De Selby

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2008, 04:59:19 PM »
That the U.S. system is inefficient compared to others is fairly well documented.  We spend more on healthcare, per capita, than any other country in the world....but do not get superior or more care than other developed countries.  That's practically the definition of inefficiency-you spend more resources to get the same result.  Here's a Congressional Research Service report that documents spending versus outcomes:
http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/RL34175_20070917.pdf

Monkeyleg, I would be in favor of simply copying the Australian system wholesale.  They pay less than we do, all government funding and taking care of those on the dole included, and they get the same level of care...and there's the option to just buy your own and go private if you want.  Pretty good deal, overall.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Lennyjoe

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2008, 05:12:05 PM »
Good lands, I guess I'm not gonna complain about healthcare since I only pay $34 per month for me and the wife. Tricare isn't the greatest but at that price I won't complain. That is unless Barry tries to take it away from us retirees.

Fly320s

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2008, 08:16:32 PM »
My biggest complaint/worry about socialized/universal healthcare.

If the government is paying the bill, they get to make the rules.  I don't want anyone making rules about my health care except for me.
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De Selby

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2008, 08:21:10 PM »
My biggest complaint/worry about socialized/universal healthcare.

If the government is paying the bill, they get to make the rules.  I don't want anyone making rules about my health care except for me.

The HMO or other insurer, and then the hospital, makes the rules for you in our system.  You don't have a choice because paying on your own, without the insurance network, is simply not an option for any sort of lifesaving care.  The prices are literally high enough to bankrupt millionaires.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Uncle Bubba

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2008, 10:06:40 PM »
Be sure to mention, somewhere in there amongst everything else that's being recommended for you to mention, that it's unconstitutional for the Fed to do any such thing. The individual states can because it's not specifically mentioned, but for Uncle it's (supposed to be) forbidden, for the same reason.
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2008, 11:10:43 PM »
Shootinstudent, I did some very cursory reading on the Australian system. The effective tax levy is 8%, although it's advertised by the government as being lower. Also, as I understand it, roughly 43% of the population has private health insurance.

So, do the people with private health insurance still pay 8% towards the government health care?

8% of total US household income would be just shy of $100 billion per year. If private insurance is on top of that 8%, then we'd be looking at much bigger numbers.

Can you clarify, please?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 01:03:38 AM by Monkeyleg »

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2008, 11:19:31 PM »
I did a quick read on Australia's health care system myself this afternoon.  It seems that there are waiting lists running upwards of 90 days for common procedures.  It also seems that there is some concern that the system is being underfunded, with serious possible repercussions for the future.




De Selby

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2008, 01:43:19 AM »
I did a quick read on Australia's health care system myself this afternoon.  It seems that there are waiting lists running upwards of 90 days for common procedures.  It also seems that there is some concern that the system is being underfunded, with serious possible repercussions for the future.





The waiting list depends on the urgency of the procedure-if there is no risk of permanent harm or suffering, you wait longer for a surgery than if you're in pain or at risk of serious harm.  For ordinary treatment that does not require a hospital (equivalent to urgent care), you don't even schedule-you just show up at the clinic and they take you in.  That stands opposed to the American system, which has 90 day plus waits for random kinds of surgery (depends on your hospital, locality, and insurance coverage for the year as much as on urgency), and which costs orders of magnitude more.

Monkeyleg,

The way it works is that if you buy private healthcare, the government gives you a tax rebate and/or a tax cut, depending on your income level.  In exchange, you have to rely on your private coverage to the extent that it provides you with care.

It isn't an 8 percent tax, and the people I talked to today measure it in hundreds of dollars per year, but no one I know knows the exact percentage.  They are estimating more like 2 (they all make over 75k, so there's a different tax scheme for them.)

In any case, the per capita expenditure is listed in the chart I linked to you as a whole in Australia.  If you took this system as it were, that's how much you would be spending per person.  The per capita figures are clear: per person, Australians pay less, including all costs, for the healthcare they get than Americans.  And they do not receive less or lower quality healthcare.

In any case, taking your eight percent figure:  100 billion per year is a little less than 1/20th of what we currently spend per year on healthcare.  There is still plenty of wiggle room there with the numbers before you reach the actual yearly cost of US healthcare.


"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."