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Author Topic: Calif. gov.: 'We will maybe undo' Prop 8  (Read 71099 times)
esheato
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« on: November 10, 2008, 01:06:32 PM »

Calif. gov.: 'We will maybe undo' Prop 8
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/11/09/Calif_gov_We_will_maybe_undo_Prop_8/UPI-22871226279859/

SACRAMENTO, Nov. 9 (UPI) -- California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger Sunday said "we will ... maybe undo" a measure passed by voters Tuesday stripping same-sex couples of the right to marry.

Proposition 8 amends the state constitution to declare that "only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California." It came in reaction to a state Supreme Court ruling that laws prohibiting same-sex marriage violated the state constitution.

In an appearance Sunday on CNN, Schwarzenegger said the state Supreme Court might overturn Proposition 8, the Los Angeles Times reported. He also said it is likely Proposition 8 will have no effect on the estimated 18,000 same-sex marriages already recorded in California.

"It's unfortunate, obviously, but it's not the end," Schwarzenegger told CNN. "I think that we will again maybe undo that, if the court is willing to do that, and then move forward from there and again lead in that area."

The comments seem to represent a change in Schwarzenegger's thinking, the Times said. In the past he has said he believes marriage should be between a man and a woman, but he has also said the matter should be decided by voters or the courts and he opposed Proposition 8.

He told backers of same-sex marriage they "should never give up."

"They should be on it and on it until they get it done," he said.

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I'm absolutely flabbergasted! The people have spoken...

WTF is the point in voting if it doesn't matter anyway? I hate this GD state.

Ed
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« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2008, 01:09:15 PM »

Calif. gov.: 'We will maybe undo' Prop 8
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/11/09/Calif_gov_We_will_maybe_undo_Prop_8/UPI-22871226279859/

SACRAMENTO, Nov. 9 (UPI) -- California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger Sunday said "we will ... maybe undo" a measure passed by voters Tuesday stripping same-sex couples of the right to marry.

Proposition 8 amends the state constitution to declare that "only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California." It came in reaction to a state Supreme Court ruling that laws prohibiting same-sex marriage violated the state constitution.

In an appearance Sunday on CNN, Schwarzenegger said the state Supreme Court might overturn Proposition 8, the Los Angeles Times reported. He also said it is likely Proposition 8 will have no effect on the estimated 18,000 same-sex marriages already recorded in California.

"It's unfortunate, obviously, but it's not the end," Schwarzenegger told CNN. "I think that we will again maybe undo that, if the court is willing to do that, and then move forward from there and again lead in that area."

The comments seem to represent a change in Schwarzenegger's thinking, the Times said. In the past he has said he believes marriage should be between a man and a woman, but he has also said the matter should be decided by voters or the courts and he opposed Proposition 8.

He told backers of same-sex marriage they "should never give up."

"They should be on it and on it until they get it done," he said.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm absolutely flabbergasted! The people have spoken...

WTF is the point in voting if it doesn't matter anyway? I hate this GD state.


Ed
The People didn't vote Correct. It happens, and the best thing a politician can do about it is to simply raise the issue over and over again until they achieve the desired results.
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Manedwolf
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« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2008, 01:09:27 PM »

Of course. The people of the state only voted on it.

Only what activist judges rule means anything. The will of We the People? Oh, that's subject to be tossed out.

Who would want to live in that place anymore?
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makattak
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« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2008, 01:11:08 PM »

Calif. gov.: 'We will maybe undo' Prop 8
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/11/09/Calif_gov_We_will_maybe_undo_Prop_8/UPI-22871226279859/

SACRAMENTO, Nov. 9 (UPI) -- California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger Sunday said "we will ... maybe undo" a measure passed by voters Tuesday stripping same-sex couples of the right to marry.

Proposition 8 amends the state constitution to declare that "only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California." It came in reaction to a state Supreme Court ruling that laws prohibiting same-sex marriage violated the state constitution.

In an appearance Sunday on CNN, Schwarzenegger said the state Supreme Court might overturn Proposition 8, the Los Angeles Times reported. He also said it is likely Proposition 8 will have no effect on the estimated 18,000 same-sex marriages already recorded in California.

"It's unfortunate, obviously, but it's not the end," Schwarzenegger told CNN. "I think that we will again maybe undo that, if the court is willing to do that, and then move forward from there and again lead in that area."

The comments seem to represent a change in Schwarzenegger's thinking, the Times said. In the past he has said he believes marriage should be between a man and a woman, but he has also said the matter should be decided by voters or the courts and he opposed Proposition 8.

He told backers of same-sex marriage they "should never give up."

"They should be on it and on it until they get it done," he said.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm absolutely flabbergasted! The people have spoken...

WTF is the point in voting if it doesn't matter anyway? I hate this GD state.

Ed

Ok, I'm no lawyer, so perhaps someone can explain this to me:

When you amend the constitution, how can a court find that your amendment is contrary to the constitution? You JUST AMENDED it!
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Manedwolf
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« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2008, 01:14:05 PM »

Ok, I'm no lawyer, so perhaps someone can explain this to me:

When you amend the constitution, how can a court find that your amendment is contrary to the constitution? You JUST AMENDED it!

Simple answer? They never intended to go through with it.

It was just the appearance of a vote to make the people think their voice counted, but they went and voted incorrectly for what the liberals want. Oops!
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makattak
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« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2008, 01:15:48 PM »

Simple answer? They never intended to go through with it.

It was just the appearance of a vote to make the people think their voice counted, but they went and voted incorrectly for what the liberals want. Oops!

I realize this. My question is, how is it legally justified?

Is it simply: We have the power, so we're going to do it?
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« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2008, 01:32:13 PM »

I realize this. My question is, how is it legally justified?

Is it simply: We have the power, so we're going to do it?

IIRC, last time they said something was constitutionaly wrong with the way the referendum was worded, or how the process was followed.

I think they're going to look for any such technicality they can.

As a little "L" right-libertarian who lost his Wookie suit and never bothered to replace it, I feel that:

- I don't like the state having anything to do with "marriage". IMO, churches should "marry" people according to their beliefs. And spouses relationships otherwise should be defined by contract law.

- I don't like seeing a particular group being singled out like this.

- I do, however, like seeing a liberal bastion being made to writhe like a snake with it's back broken.

I suspect the proponents of Prop. 8 shrewedly knew that the Obama turnout would have lots of blue-collar, black, and hispanic voters who'd be socially conservative, but want all sorts of other "change" under the sun that Obama was promising. We had the exact same kind of turnout in the '06 WI elections but in reverse. The anti-gay marriage Amendment here in WI turned out the blue-collar/minority/socially conservative Democrat base who then gave one house of the legislature back to the Dems, and re-elected our wonderful Gov. Doyle.
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« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2008, 01:43:39 PM »

A referendum to take rights away from citizens without due process shouldn't pass.  Period.  End of discussion.

I don't care how icky they might be.
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Manedwolf
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« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2008, 01:54:41 PM »

A referendum to take rights away from citizens without due process shouldn't pass.  Period.  End of discussion.

I don't care how icky they might be.

And the rights of small business owners to not be forced to accept that they now have to insure someone's gay "spouse"?

Oh, right. THEY don't matter. Only the group that wants special equal rights that are more special than others matters.
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makattak
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« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2008, 01:55:55 PM »

A referendum to take rights away from citizens without due process shouldn't pass.  Period.  End of discussion.

I don't care how icky they might be.

It wasn't a referendum, it was an amendment.

It wasn't without due process, it WAS THE PROCESS.

It's not about rights, it's about government recognition.
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MicroBalrog
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« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2008, 01:58:13 PM »

Personally, I don't think the government should recognize any marriage. But if it does recognize straight marriage, I'd rather it recognized gay marriage too. But then, I don't particularly care either way. I wouldn't change my choice of politicians based on that.

So I'm ambivalent on this event.

Quote
Oh, right. THEY don't matter. Only the group that wants special equal rights that are more special than others matters.

So, how about a business hanging up a sign NO CHRISTIANS WELCOME? [Mind, I don't mind either way].
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Tallpine
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« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2008, 02:16:04 PM »

Similar thing happened in Colorado back about 15 years ago.   rolleyes
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« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2008, 02:23:08 PM »

And the rights of small business owners to not be forced to accept that they now have to insure someone's gay "spouse"?

Oh, right. THEY don't matter. Only the group that wants special equal rights that are more special than others matters.

Then don't offer spousal/family insurance.  At all.

I also ride the bandwagon that the state shouldn't have ANY say in the concept of marriage, and that taxes should be blind to one's married status.  Marriage should be a private covenant between two people and hold no legal bearing outside of the agreements of those people and any offspring they might create.

But, if it's gonna be a "benefit" for straights, then it ought to be a benefit for those icky gay people too. rolleyes
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Desertdog
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« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2008, 02:24:15 PM »

 Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger was elected when we recalled Gov. Gray Davis.
There was a CA Supreme Court Justice removed from office a number of years ago.  The Justices in there now will be up for re-election eventually.  We will see what happens then.  
Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger is term limited in so he will be going also.
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Ben
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« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2008, 02:24:31 PM »

Prop 187 all over again. Every time the conservatives in the state vote on a prop and it doesn't go our way, we say, "well, that's the breaks, the people voted." Every time liberals vote on a prop and it doesn't go their way they yell, "SUE!". And then they sometimes hold their breath and have temper tantrums until they get their way.
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« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2008, 02:29:41 PM »

so voting twice isn't enough for arnold?
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Manedwolf
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« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2008, 02:34:02 PM »

so voting twice isn't enough for arnold?

Of course not. The silly voters voted wrong, you see.
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« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2008, 02:47:53 PM »

A referendum to take rights away from citizens without due process shouldn't pass.  Period.  End of discussion.

I don't care how icky they might be.

As pointed out, it was an amendment.  Unless you can find a better method than using the democratic process to create or amend constitutions, we have no other way to decide what rights people actually have. 
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Marvin Dao
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« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2008, 03:46:44 PM »

Ok, I'm no lawyer, so perhaps someone can explain this to me:

When you amend the constitution, how can a court find that your amendment is contrary to the constitution? You JUST AMENDED it!

Easy, least for California.

The most promising line of attack against Proposition 8 is whether it's an "amendment" to the California constitution or a "revision" of the California constitution. Revisions require approval of 2/3rds of the state House and Senate before a simple majority vote by the people. Amendments just require simple majority vote by the people. The distinction between the two is whether or not they "substantially alters the basic governmental framework set forth in our Constitution".

Gay rights supporters argue that Proposition 8 is a revision and does meet that standard since the change to the definition of marriage is substantial compared to how it's currently interpreted by the courts and since it undoes 18k or so gay marriages. If they succeed in arguing that Proposition 8 is a revision to the constitution instead of an amendment, then the fact that it wasn't voted on by the California House/Senate means that Proposition 8 fails on procedural grounds.
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longeyes
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« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2008, 03:48:43 PM »

We the Former People.
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« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2008, 07:33:51 PM »

Arnold wants a job in the Obama cabinet.
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« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2008, 08:33:12 PM »

Of course not. The silly voters voted wrong, you see.

Yes, they did.  Voting hatred and ignorance is wrong, just as if Georgia tried to ban black people from marrying white people.

If you don't like having to offer benefits to gays, don't offer any benefits.  Or grow up and get over yourselves.  Gay marriage isn't going to hurt you, or your pocketbook.  People got over getting rid of Miscegenation laws, you'll get over getting rid of anti-gay marriage laws; and your children will laugh at you for not doing it sooner.

I have very little tolerance for the other viewpoint on this issue

Arnold wants a job in the Obama cabinet.

Obama is also wrong on the issue.
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Headless Thompson Gunner
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« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2008, 08:44:06 PM »

Yes, they did.  Voting hatred and ignorance is wrong, just as if Georgia tried to ban black people from marrying white people.

If you don't like having to offer benefits to gays, don't offer any benefits.  Or grow up and get over yourselves.  Gay marriage isn't going to hurt you, or your pocketbook.  People got over getting rid of Miscegenation laws, you'll get over getting rid of anti-gay marriage laws; and your children will laugh at you for not doing it sooner.

I have very little tolerance for the other viewpoint on this issue

And apparently you have very little tolerance for constitutional government.  This isn't about gay marriage.  The issue is that the voters amended their constitution, and yet the government refuses to recognize it.

If you have any semblance of respect for our form of government, then you should be outraged by what the governor is is trying to do.  The  government doesn't get to pick and choose what parts of the constitution they have to abide by. 
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Nitrogen
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« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2008, 08:52:40 PM »

Government approved hatred is not OK; EVER.

Sorry.  I do not approve of any one set of people taking rights away from another for any reason without due process.

It's a horrible precident, and it's not what this country should be about.

I'm all for the rule of law, don't get me wrong, but sometimes you just have to stand up and say, "NO.  This is WRONG."

This is one of those times.  It's that time ANYTIME something like this happens, not just in California.
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Headless Thompson Gunner
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« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2008, 09:06:54 PM »

Government approved hatred is not OK; EVER.

Sorry.  I do not approve of any one set of people taking rights away from another for any reason without due process.

It's a horrible precident, and it's not what this country should be about.

I'm all for the rule of law, don't get me wrong, but sometimes you just have to stand up and say, "NO.  This is WRONG."

This is one of those times.  It's that time ANYTIME something like this happens, not just in California.

You speak of precedents.  What precedent are we setting when we establish that the government can ignore the constitution willy nilly?  What's to stop them from violating every other right enumerated in the constitution?  The answer, of course, is nothing.  You're encouraging the government to head down a path where the constitution doesn't matter, where the government gets to pick and choose what rights we have according to their whim. 

We might as well have no constitutions, or no rights.  Either a constitution is inviolable or it isn't.  If it isn't, then no right is safe.

Violating rights to protect rights isn't just dumb, it's dangerous.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 09:10:14 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner » Logged
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