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Author Topic: Calif. gov.: 'We will maybe undo' Prop 8  (Read 103609 times)
erictank
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« Reply #50 on: November 11, 2008, 08:31:03 AM »

Alright, if people have a right to marry as they see fit, then marriage means nothing.

There is a reason marriage has been between a man and a woman; this has been the definition for millenia.

And two hundred years ago, a "firearm" meant something you needed either a match or a piece of the right kind of rock to touch off, and which, by and large, you were lucky to hit your target with at a hundred yards or more.  Should that definition prevail today, or can definitions change?

If it simply means: people who get together and want to have the government recognize their relationship, what is marriage?

It's what those involved in the relationship make of it.  If the government is going to officially recognize one, they'd better recognize all that don't involve a lack of freely-given consent.

Bring back polygamy.

Why not, if all involved are okay with it?

Interspecies marriage.


Can the other species give free informed consent?  Personally, I tend to doubt it - so such a "marriage" would be as invalid as any other contract one attempted to enter into with an animal.

Underage (with the parents consent) marriage.

Parents' consent isn't what's important in that case, and the informed consent of the child cannot be freely given.  Invalid for the same reason as the specious "Interspecies marriage" argument.

Why stop with just two people?

Why indeed, if that's your thing?  
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MicroBalrog
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« Reply #51 on: November 11, 2008, 08:41:47 AM »

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Why not, if all involved are okay with it?

Indeed, why not? Various alternatives to the one-man/one-woman alternative exist. Polygamy, polyandry, Heinleinian line marriages - go, go, go!
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Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner
Manedwolf
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« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2008, 08:45:30 AM »

Indeed, why not? Various alternatives to the one-man/one-woman alternative exist. Polygamy, polyandry, Heinleinian line marriages - go, go, go!

Because some of us are trying to have a civilization here.
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MicroBalrog
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« Reply #53 on: November 11, 2008, 08:46:41 AM »

Because some of us are trying to have a civilization here.

I will immediately inform the guys who founded Judeo-Christian civilization about your desire.
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Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner
Ben
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« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2008, 08:48:40 AM »

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I wonder if the voters of California can sue the state gov't for a civil rights violation via "disenfranchising" their vote in this matter.....

Nope. Already failed with Prop187, which passed with a strong majority and was designed to deny taxpayer services to illegal immigrants. Anti-187 people had the Prop overturned in the courts.
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"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."
HankB
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« Reply #55 on: November 11, 2008, 08:49:46 AM »

I don't think you get it.

Intolerance towards uncommon sorts of sexual behavior is, in fact, intolerance. The spade is a spade.
What a euphemism . . . substituting "uncommon" for "perverse." In the same vein as calling a drug dealer an "unofficial pharmacist" or an illegal alien an "undocumented worker."

Tolerating something is different than legitimizing it or embracing it. I personally don't care what consenting adults do with or to one another, so long as they stay out of my face when they're doing it and don't demand I cheer them on. That's tolerance.

That includes homosexuals.

But I don't want to create a bonanza for divorce lawyers, employment benefit lawyers, and I don't want to open the door even further to things like greater involvement  of homosexuals with little children (including adoption), which is certainly going to follow if same-sex "married" couples become accepted in law.
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Trump won. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Those who work for a living are being BURIED by those who vote for a living.
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain
Manedwolf
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« Reply #56 on: November 11, 2008, 08:50:00 AM »

BTW, Heinlein turned from a halfway decent writer to a disgusting pedophile pervert when he got old. Mentioning anything he wrote in his latter "books" stuffed with rampant incest and worse is, to me, the equivalent of a Godwin in any conversation about relationships.

You'll notice that Heinlein fans are way down on the Geek Chart from the other science fiction writer fans. With good reason.
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makattak
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« Reply #57 on: November 11, 2008, 09:41:26 AM »

And two hundred years ago, a "firearm" meant something you needed either a match or a piece of the right kind of rock to touch off, and which, by and large, you were lucky to hit your target with at a hundred yards or more.  Should that definition prevail today, or can definitions change?


There is a GREAT difference between improving technologies and changing traditions.

We have been rejecting the traditions of the past without due regard for what they represent. Within these traditions is contained the knowledge of the preceeding MILLIONS of individuals.

Just as we ridicule the socialists for believing that they can succeed where others have failed, because they believe that THEY know the right way, those who push to change the constructs of society are just as conceited.

They believe that despite the thousands of years of precedence for successful society, we can change the structures because WE KNOW BETTER.

This is folly and arrogance of the greatest degree.

Hayek pointed out the problem of rejecting traditions with the modern concept of "no-fault divorce."

Ostensibly, it was argued that children would be better off if people could simply dissolve the marriage contract with far less difficulty than a business contract. People who didn't get along then wouldn't have to put up with each other, children wouldn't have to see their parents fighting all the time and everything would get better.

Instead, children now grow up in multiple parent households bouncing between father and mother.

These children CAN grow up to be well-adjusted, but they do not have the best environment for it.

But, instead of arguing how it is better for the children, people now say "they will adjust."

This is the problem: marriage is NOT about the two people deciding to be together until they get tired of it. The reason we recognize marriage and wish to encourage it is because it creates the best environment for well-adjusted children. Argue if you like, but I think the relationship between criminality and a lack of a father at home is well-documented.

This is why we should not encourage gay marriage and under no circumstances should we allow them to adopt children. To willing place a child where they will grow up without either a father or a mother is selfishness and cruelty to the child.

This is why we fight against redefinitions of marriage. This is why tradition is important.

In fact, this is only the obvious reason for the tradition- the problem with rejecting traditions is we don't know what knowledge they represented until we have lost it.
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“Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom.”
MicroBalrog
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« Reply #58 on: November 11, 2008, 09:43:10 AM »

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What a euphemism . . . substituting "uncommon" for "perverse." In the same vein as calling a drug dealer an "unofficial pharmacist" or an illegal alien an "undocumented worker."

Fine. Perverse merely means, per Freud, "anything other than reproductive, vaginal sex". Oral sex is perverse, per Freud. There's nothing whatever morally wrong with it.

Quote
BTW, Heinlein turned from a halfway decent writer to a disgusting pedophile pervert when he got old. Mentioning anything he wrote in his latter "books" stuffed with rampant incest and worse is, to me, the equivalent of a Godwin in any conversation about relationships.

Pedophilia? In my Heinlein? What books do you you speak of?

I've read most of Heinlein and did a college assignment on "The Moon is A Harsh Mistress." "Moon" involves detailed discussion of line marriages. So does "Friday".

There's no pedophilia involved whatever, and as a matter of fact, none of Heinlein's books deal with incest as a main topic, to my knowledge. As for incest, it is discussed in some books, but nowhere is it the prime topic. Have you actually read 'Moon'?
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Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner
freakazoid
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« Reply #59 on: November 11, 2008, 09:50:13 AM »

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Some of us would like the America back that existed before public deviancy was okay. So, in those areas, people vote for that.

You mean bring back things like slavery and women not being able to vote? Man those truly where the good old days of good old traditional American values...  rolleyes

Quote
If a majority of residents in a state got enough signatures on a ballot to float a referendum to, oh, say, deny civil rights to Jews, would that be OK by you?

Or lets say a majority of liberals in NJ decided to expel anyone that was seen with a McCain sticker on their car, would THAT be okay?

It's. Not. Okay.
If a majority of people want to take rights away from people they don't like willy-nilly like that, it's not okay.

I can appreciate your end of the argument, honestly.  You're afraid that "others" would just decide to nullify any law they decide that was "Wrong."  I can appreciate how that's A Bad Thing.

But you know what?  It's still wrong.  Evil by a majority vote is still evil.  Denying rights to people you don't like without due process is always wrong.  ALWAYS.

+1

Quote
Argue if you like, but I think the relationship between criminality and a lack of a father at home is well-documented.

Like the documentation of blacks, Jews, anyone not white, and criminality?
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HankB
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« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2008, 09:56:53 AM »

. . . as a matter of fact, none of Heinlein's books deal with incest as a main topic, to my knowledge. As for incest, it is discussed in some books, but nowhere is it the prime topic.
I take it you've never read Heinlein's final novel, To Sail Beyond the Sunset.
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Trump won. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Those who work for a living are being BURIED by those who vote for a living.
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain
cassandra and sara's daddy
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« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2008, 09:59:47 AM »

http://www.springerlink.com/content/p4408r41w7m36u43/

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119983785/abstract
The decade of the 1980s witnessed more than a doubling in the number of incarcerated individuals. Little is known about the psychological reactions of children whose parents are incarcerated, although a variety of behavioral disorders apparently related to separation, stigma, and deception of the child has been reported. The possibility of aggressive or antisocial behavior emerging in sons of incarcerated fathers has been mentioned as of particular concern in some reports. This article discusses salient themes in the literature on the reactions of children to parental incarceration, with an emphasis on boys' reactions to incarceration of their fathers. It critiques this literature and compares the findings with literature on the effects of separation in father absence related to other causes (for example, divorce, death, military service). Behavioral or emotional disorder associated with paternal incarceration probably is related mainly to associated factors such as the meaning of the incarceration to the child, the remaining caretaker's psychological characteristics and psychopathology, the parenting relationship between the caretaker and the child, and the coping capacities and resources of the family, rather than to the separation itself. Recommendations for further research in this increasingly important field are provided.
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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I
MicroBalrog
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« Reply #62 on: November 11, 2008, 10:01:03 AM »

I take it you've never read Heinlein's final novel, To Sail Beyond the Sunset.

No, unfortunately not.

I've read Friday, Tunnel in the Sky, Time Enough For Love, Starship Troopers, Farnham's Freehold, Red Planet, The Puppet Masters, Friday and a pile of short stories.

What horror does that book contain that invalidates the lifetime of insights on society, sex, family, and relationships contained in Heinlein's other books?
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Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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makattak
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« Reply #63 on: November 11, 2008, 10:06:57 AM »

Quote
Like the documentation of blacks, Jews, anyone not white, and criminality?

Fatherless children are at a dramatically greater risk of drug and alcohol abuse, mental illness, suicide, poor educational performance, teen pregnancy, and criminality.
Source: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, National Center for Health Statistics, Survey on Child Health, Washington, DC, 1993.

Kids who exhibited violent behavior at school were 11 times as likely not to live with their fathers and six times as likely to have parents who were not married. Boys from families with absent fathers are at higher risk for violent behavior than boys from intact families.
Source: J.L. Sheline (et al.), "Risk Factors...", American Journal of Public Health, No. 84. 1994.

The proportion of single-parent households in a community predicts its rate of violent crime and burglary, but the community's poverty level does not.
Source: D.A. Smith and G.R. Jarjoura, "Social Structure and Criminal Victimization," Journal of Research in Crime and Delinquency 25. 1988.

Only 13 percent of juvenile delinquents come from families in which the biological mother and father are married to each other. By contract, 33 percent have parents who are either divorced or separated and 44 percent have parents who were never married.
Source: Wisconsin Dept. of Health and Social Services, April 1994.

Seventy percent of juveniles in state reform institutions grew up in single- or no-parent situations.
Source: Alan Beck et al., Survey of Youth in Custody, 1987, US Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1988.

Please, reject such things out of hand because you don't like them.
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“Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom.”
Manedwolf
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« Reply #64 on: November 11, 2008, 10:08:27 AM »

No, unfortunately not.

I've read Friday, Tunnel in the Sky, Time Enough For Love, Starship Troopers, Farnham's Freehold, Red Planet, The Puppet Masters, Friday and a pile of short stories.

What horror does that book contain that invalidates the lifetime of insights on society, sex, family, and relationships contained in Heinlein's other books?


Let's see. I threw Freehold in the trash when the teenage daughter started telling her middle aged father she wanted to sleep with him.

It takes a LOT to make me destroy a book.
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MicroBalrog
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« Reply #65 on: November 11, 2008, 10:09:16 AM »

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Let's see. I threw Freehold in the trash when the teenage daughter started telling her middle aged father she wanted to sleep with him.

I take it you burned your Bible too?
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Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner
Manedwolf
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« Reply #66 on: November 11, 2008, 10:10:46 AM »

I take it you burned your Bible too?

Context. That was NOT presented as a good thing.

Heinlein's writings became the projections of a dirty old man. Happened to Leo Frankowski, too, who started going into detail about how many fourteen-year-old girls his protagonist bedded. Except Baen had the stones to cancel his contracts on any further work. Last I heard, he left America and moved to Russia and hasn't been heard from since.
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MicroBalrog
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« Reply #67 on: November 11, 2008, 10:12:27 AM »

Context. That was NOT presented as a good thing.



So you burn books only when the author disagrees with you?

Do you burn your Shakespeare and Nabokov? [14-year-old sexx0r, brother-sister incest in 'Ada', Lord knows what else]
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Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner
cassandra and sara's daddy
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« Reply #68 on: November 11, 2008, 10:19:18 AM »

you've almost definitly heard this before, "i hope you have lots of kids and they turn out just like you"
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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MicroBalrog
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« Reply #69 on: November 11, 2008, 10:21:37 AM »

you've almost definitly heard this before, "i hope you have lots of kids and they turn out just like you"

So do I.
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Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner
cassandra and sara's daddy
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« Reply #70 on: November 11, 2008, 10:31:59 AM »

by the grace of a merciful god i have kids like my sister. and she has my kids  lifes perverse that way
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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I
MicroBalrog
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« Reply #71 on: November 11, 2008, 10:35:18 AM »

by the grace of a merciful god i have kids like my sister. and she has my kids  lifes perverse that way

Must... not... make obvious jokes... must... fight.... urge...
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Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner
Eleven Mike
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All your desert are belong to us.


« Reply #72 on: November 11, 2008, 10:38:35 AM »

If a majority of residents in a state got enough signatures on a ballot to float a referendum to, oh, say, deny civil rights to Jews, would that be OK by you?


That's really not the point.  How do we come to an agreement on who has a right to what?  How do we write that into law?  Who is to say that Jews deserve or don't deserve rights?  Currently, we use constitutions that are ratified by the democratic process.  And those can be amended by that same process, or in California's case, they can be "revised." 

What else is there? 

Yes, you can go outside the system and use civil disobedience.  But even then, you eventually have to deal with the constitution. 
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zahc
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« Reply #73 on: November 11, 2008, 10:46:12 AM »

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maybe we'd better outlaw regular marriage or it might lead to gay marriage!

A good idea! Personally, I'm all for it.
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Desertdog
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« Reply #74 on: November 11, 2008, 11:20:56 AM »

We would not be having this discussion if God had created Adam and Steve instead of Adam and Eve.
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