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Author Topic: Calif. gov.: 'We will maybe undo' Prop 8  (Read 106087 times)
agricola
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« Reply #125 on: November 12, 2008, 07:39:51 AM »

Quote
There doesn't have to be any sex going on, but I can see why this would be beneficial to old guys that are unmarried.  Tie the knot with your brother and your insurance covers him, it's easier to share assets, and in my state (MI) we'd be able to trade handguns back and forth without any stupid paperwork or registration hassles.

That very issue was raised when we in the UK went through this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3996819.stm

though that was defeated, as was a case brought by two sisters who took their fight all the way to the ECHR:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wiltshire/6990101.stm
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taurusowner
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« Reply #126 on: November 12, 2008, 07:52:31 AM »

Government should be of the people and for the people.  Not of the elite oligarchy.  People are what determine the course of a nation, and a state.  That is why we have voting.  That is why we have representatives.  If the Supreme Court were supposed to be the sole decider of legal and social issues, lets just do away with voting and let our council of Lords issue their decrees.  People are the engine of law, for good or for ill.  You ask if slavery was right when the majority agreed with it?  I would argue that legally, it was right.  Until the people decided it wasn't.  A war was fought.  Slave owners were punished.  Laws were changed through the process.  The people changed.  The people voted.  The law changed.  If you don't agree with the democratic process, and would rather see and oligarchy's vison on the world forced onto a people through the fist of the state, move somewhere where that is the case.  Here in America, and in it's States, the people vote, and the people decide law.  The Supreme Court, whether state or federal, is tasked within interpreting law within the framework of the people's Constitution.  Not just decide whatever law they feel is right.  The people changed the Constitution.  That is now the framework the Supreme Court must operate inside.  They are not permitted to change their own mandate from outside of it.  That sort of power is despotism.


I believe marriage should not be a government issue at all.  If people wanna go fill out some form that dictates someone else has secondary power over their lives, like possessions, health-care, etc, let them indicate who that person is.  As a Christian, I believe all marriages that are not Christian marriages are spiritually false and invalid, that includes Native American, Muslim, homosexual, etc.  I also believe that has nothing to do with government tax and power of attorney law.  While I don't agree with the degree Leftists have pushed the "separation of church and state" issue, I do believe this is one area where it applies.  Lets get government out of marriage, and let people decide for themselves who gets their crap when they die, or who holds power over them if they're in a coma, and all that.  And let's get rid of the tax benefits for "couples" altogether.  That should solve the whole "we want the same rights" issue.  Just get rid of special government rights for everyone.  I would prefer that to recognizing what I see as a deviant and invalid "marriage".


As far as the "why do you care ig gays get married?"  I wouldn't care if it didn't have anything to do with me.  But it does.  Especially if I have kids.  If I want to raise my children respecting my religion, I don't want public schools or any other thing actively telling my children that my religion is wrong because it conflicts with their Leftist preaching.  And yes, it does and will happen.  They already try to pull that crap in states like CA, having sex ed classes for 1st graders talking about homosexuality.  Conferring the title of marriage to that act will only embolden them to attack religion and our rights to raise our kids how we want even further.  It would be far better to do away with state sanctioned marriage than to allow that agenda to progress further.
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Eleven Mike
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« Reply #127 on: November 12, 2008, 10:25:11 AM »

How would you appreciate a NO DOGS AND CHRISTIANS ALLOWED sign?

How would you like to stick somewhere near the issue at hand?  For starters:

You repeating 'it is a fact' does not make it so.

That is precisely the point.  As Kewlz has ably demonstrated, the whole argument for fake marriage rests in just such empty rhetoric.  A same-sex relationship can be a marriage, because they say so.  And to disagree with that is bigotry/hatred because they said so.  All hail the all-powerful THEY. 

  To some people a persons sex makes them no different than a persons skin color.  Marriage to some people is a bond between 2 people.  They don't put ANY restriction on whom those 2 people are.  (Excluding of course children)

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Ron
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« Reply #128 on: November 12, 2008, 10:45:18 AM »

For some humans words still have meaning.

If you want the government to recognize unions other than man and wife then come up with a new word or term to describe it accurately. Changing the definition of a word (marriage) by government fiat against the wishes of the majority is not the correct way of going about affecting change. Top down pronouncements engender resentment that will last generations. As has been pointed out also, once gay marriage is normalized in law the activists will have free reign to effect societal change using the new law as a club to beat social conservatives into submission.
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El Tejon
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« Reply #129 on: November 12, 2008, 10:47:37 AM »

It's so much fun to see the Left drop its mask and see what they really think of their beloved "The People".

Cattle to be driven with whips and corrected when wrong. 
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Manedwolf
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« Reply #130 on: November 12, 2008, 10:56:46 AM »

marriage: 1297, from O.Fr. mariage (12c.), from V.L. *maritaticum, from L. maritatus, pp. of maritatre "to wed, marry, give in marriage"

Come up with a new word if you want to. That one has meant what it means for at least that long.
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Ron
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« Reply #131 on: November 12, 2008, 11:26:12 AM »

from the etymology dictionary
marry (v.)

1297, from O.Fr. marier, from L. maritare "to wed, marry, give in marriage," from maritus "married man, husband," of

uncertain origin, perhaps ult. from "provided with a *mari," a young woman, from PIE base *meri- "young wife," akin to

*meryo- "young man" (cf. Skt. marya- "young man, suitor"). Said from 1530 of the priest, etc., who performs the rite.


Definition from Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language, 1828:

MARRIAGE

MAR'RIAGE, n. L.mas, maris. The act of uniting a man and woman for life; wedlock; the legal union of a man and woman for life. Marriage is a contract both civil and religious, by which the parties engage to live together in mutual affection and fidelity, till death shall separate them. Marriage was instituted by God himself for the purpose of preventing the promiscuous intercourse of the sexes, for promoting domestic felicity,and for securing the maintenance and education of children.

Marriage is honorable in all and the bed undefiled. Heb.13.

1. A feast made on the occasion of a marriage.

The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king, who made a marriage for his son. Matt.22.

2. In a scriptural sense, the union between Christ and his church by the covenant of grace. Rev.19.

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MicroBalrog
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« Reply #132 on: November 12, 2008, 12:14:14 PM »

Quote
How would you like to stick somewhere near the issue at hand?  For starters:

It was stated that dislike of gays could not be compared to racist bigotry, because (supposedly) homosexuality is a choice.

In this case - I point out - why can it not compared to religious bigotry? Is not religion a choice?

Quote
Come up with a new word if you want to. That one has meant what it means for at least that long.

1. Word. Meanings. Change. Words and dictionaries are a social construct.

2. I take it you don't mind civil unions.
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Ron
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« Reply #133 on: November 12, 2008, 12:28:45 PM »

It was stated that dislike of gays could not be compared to racist bigotry, because (supposedly) homosexuality is a choice.

In this case - I point out - why can it not compared to religious bigotry? Is not religion a choice?

1. Word. Meanings. Change. Words and dictionaries are a social construct.

2. I take it you don't mind civil unions.

Changing words by government fiat?

A few thoughts by Thomas Sowell on the subject:
Quote
Marriage has existed for centuries and, until recent times, it has always meant a union between a man and a woman. Over those centuries, a vast array of laws has grown up, all based on circumstances that arise in unions between a man and a woman.

Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes said that law has not been based on logic but on experience. To apply a mountain of laws based specifically on experience with relations between a man and a woman to a different relationship where sex differences are not involved would be like applying the rules of baseball to football.

Quote
Marriage is not a right but a set of legal obligations imposed because the government has a vested interest in unions that, among other things, have the potential to produce children, which is to say, the future population of the nation.

Gays were on their strongest ground when they said that what they did was nobody else's business. Now they are asserting a right to other people's approval, which is wholly different.

None of us has a right to other people's approval.
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MicroBalrog
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« Reply #134 on: November 12, 2008, 12:42:58 PM »

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Changing words by government fiat?

Government?

I am not the government. I reserve the right, undeniable and natural, to call the union of any two (or three, or five) adults bound together by love and the religious rituals of their choice, a marriage. We, as individuals in society, can choose to treat people equally. We can all be agents of cultural change. Just as you choose to act and remain an agent of conservative family values, and promote the acceptability of only one kind of marriage, namely that of a man in a woman, so do I and people like me have the right to promote our views.

If you have the right, as a human being, to condemn the 'gay lifestyle', then I also have the right as a human being, to condemn the 'anti-gay llifestyle'. It cuts both ways, and let the best man/woman/genderqueer win.

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Ron
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« Reply #135 on: November 12, 2008, 12:52:46 PM »

If the government recognizes "gay marriage" against the peoples will then it is by government fiat.

You have the freedom to change any word you want privately, you may speak Klingon, pig latin whatever. Just don't try and enshrine your silliness by force through the use of government power.

I don't recall condemning anyone, except for those who are trying to use government force to implement their so called progressive agenda.
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Kwelz
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« Reply #136 on: November 12, 2008, 01:05:36 PM »

I find it interesting that people keep saying Homosexuality is a choice.  Given that most if not all mammals exhibit homosexual behavior perhaps we should consider that sex is just that, sex.  It is a way to reproduce and a way to get pleasure.  Only humans have attached anything else to it beyond this. 
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taurusowner
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« Reply #137 on: November 12, 2008, 01:07:16 PM »

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Gays were on their strongest ground when they said that what they did was nobody else's business. Now they are asserting a right to other people's approval, which is wholly different.

That's a very good point.  When they simply said it's no one's business and it won't affect anyone else, that was fine.  I don't have to agree with their behavior, but so long as they do their thing, and I do mine, and neither of us does any forcing of the issue, we're all good.  The moment they decided to force me into approving of their behavior is when the made an enemy.
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Racehorse
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« Reply #138 on: November 12, 2008, 01:13:38 PM »

I find it interesting that people keep saying Homosexuality is a choice.  Given that most if not all mammals exhibit homosexual behavior perhaps we should consider that sex is just that, sex.  It is a way to reproduce and a way to get pleasure.  Only humans have attached anything else to it beyond this. 

Those pesky humans. Always trying to attach meaning to everything.
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Matthew Carberry
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« Reply #139 on: November 12, 2008, 01:22:18 PM »

I find it interesting that people keep saying Homosexuality is a choice.  Given that most if not all mammals exhibit homosexual behavior perhaps we should consider that sex is just that, sex.  It is a way to reproduce and a way to get pleasure.  Only humans have attached anything else to it beyond this. 

So you're saying that homosexuals are just pleasure-seeking animals?

Wow.

I think that maybe, just maybe, they are attaching some deeper emotional meaning to their human actions than that, just like heterosexuals do.

Perhaps sexual interaction between mere animals, of whatever kind, bears little to no relation to human life and shouldn't be compared as if it did?
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taurusowner
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« Reply #140 on: November 12, 2008, 01:48:06 PM »

I find it interesting that people keep saying Homosexuality is a choice.  Given that most if not all mammals exhibit homosexual behavior[Citation Needed] perhaps we should consider that sex is just that, sex.  It is a way to reproduce and a way to get pleasure.  Only humans have attached anything else to it beyond this. 
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Matthew Carberry
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« Reply #141 on: November 12, 2008, 01:51:39 PM »

Occasionally, many mammalian species will exhibit some kinds of behavior between same-sex individuals that mimics the same activity between different sex individuals.

Anthromorphizing that into "all mammals have homosexuals" is horrible biology.
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taurusowner
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« Reply #142 on: November 12, 2008, 02:01:23 PM »

I'd like Kewlz to show me that the animals mentioned are not having a case of mistaken identity regarding the partner, and also are not suffering from genetic anomalies.  Since homosexuality is 100% against the instinct of procreation, which is something animals conclusively do have, he'd better have some pretty hefty evidence that homosexuality is normal, frequent, and reoccurring throughout the animal kingdom, and not the result of defects.

And we're talking homosexuality.  An animal that is wired as normal to have sex with the opposite gender to procreate, and is found attempting the act with another of it's species regardless of gender doesn't count.  To put it bluntly, dogs make an attempt with human legs.  That doesn't mean they have a natural attraction to human beings.  They're just confused.
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Matthew Carberry
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« Reply #143 on: November 12, 2008, 02:19:50 PM »

Or using sexual behavior for dominance reasons.

Or as a grooming technique.

Or for any number of reasons they can't explain to us so we get to project whatever we want onto it.
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cassandra and sara's daddy
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« Reply #144 on: November 12, 2008, 02:25:44 PM »

in some cases its a form of showing dominance   my female husky humping the younger pup
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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I
MechAg94
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« Reply #145 on: November 12, 2008, 02:47:23 PM »

There is are also cases of some mammals exhibiting deeper relationships between mates more than simply procreation.  What does that tell us?  Not a whole lot. 
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MechAg94
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« Reply #146 on: November 12, 2008, 02:49:06 PM »

2. I take it you don't mind civil unions.
If they were satisfied with that, I think a whole lot of the opposition wouldn't be there. 
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Crazy-G
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« Reply #147 on: November 12, 2008, 03:46:55 PM »

For those who believe homosexuality is a choice, what happens research proves it is not a choice?
I also ask those who believe it is not a choice, what if research proves it is a choice? 

Until that is answered,if it ever is, I think it should be left up to the People to decide, for right or wrong. Each generation of voters will have the right to change the laws as they see fit and the government should uphold the laws as mandated by the People.
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Matthew Carberry
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« Reply #148 on: November 12, 2008, 04:20:30 PM »

For those who believe homosexuality is a choice, what happens research proves it is not a choice?
I also ask those who believe it is not a choice, what if research proves it is a choice? 

Until that is answered,if it ever is, I think it should be left up to the People to decide, for right or wrong. Each generation of voters will have the right to change the laws as they see fit and the government should uphold the laws as mandated by the People.


Good post.

In any event, the "rights" argument on marriage doesn't rest on whether sexual attraction or behavior is a choice or not.  You are free to act on sexual attraction right now.  The few places with laws on the books restricting certain sexual activities are challengeable right now as such activities are male/female neutral.
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« Reply #149 on: November 12, 2008, 04:51:17 PM »

It was stated that dislike of gays could not be compared to racist bigotry, because (supposedly) homosexuality is a choice.
 

Well, I didn't say that, and that wasn't the point.  Your argument is, the races are equal, ergo the sexes are interchangeable.  And one doesn't follow from the other.  So, miscegenation sheds no light on the current controversy.  It may be an interesting comparison, but it's not much of an argument.  It's main purpose is ad hominem.  Or is question begging?  Both, I think. 
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