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Author Topic: Calif. gov.: 'We will maybe undo' Prop 8  (Read 103112 times)
Matthew Carberry
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« Reply #250 on: November 15, 2008, 03:34:11 PM »

What does this have to do with capitalism?

I know it has to do with it for some of the modern leftists, but nobody here is a social-democrat leftist.

Really hard-core leftists are actually even against pornography , because they claim the modern attitudes to sex are inherently capitalist. Soviet laws on sex were far more strict than anything America had in the last century.

If anything, more sexual permissiveness is MORE capitalist.

A question for you since you are making the mistake of conflating two absolutely distinct topics.

What does lawful sexual permissiveness, which we already have in the states, have to do with state recognition of marriage and the legal and economic ramifications thereof?

Remember, state law about marriage doesn't mention love or a particular sex act anywhere in the text.

That's the key to remember.  The gay marriage issue isn't about love or sex or anything else, gays are free to do whatever the hell they want in that regard.  They can even have non-state recognized "marriages" where they privately pledge love and devotion to each other.

Furthermore, in California right at this moment, they can even get the exact same rights as a married hetero couple.

All they can't do in Cali, due now to Prop. 8, is to get the state to use the actual word "marriage" in reference to their civil union.

That's it.

It's all well and good for folks to talk about "love is love" and other trite phraseology, but that doesn't address the actual legal (not moral) and economic issues at hand.

We need to take emotion out of the discussion, it is actually counter-productive to finding a solution.
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« Reply #251 on: November 15, 2008, 03:34:59 PM »

This is bad?

Well, either we allow some political side legislate their sexual choices (based on notions of 'third-wave feminism', 'socialism', or 'family values'), or we get the government out of the marriage business.
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Matthew Carberry
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« Reply #252 on: November 15, 2008, 03:39:45 PM »

This is bad?

I'm rapidly leaning in the direction it wouldn't be bad at all.

Set up civil contracts to cover inheritance, children, rights of survivorship etc. like a beefier will, removing any moral or traditional verbage from the text, do not force any private entity to grant any privileges thereby and only allow gov't. benefits for the actual employee and we'd be shed of the problem.

If people want to jump a broom, or walk down an aisle, or howl naked at the full moon in a grove at midnight they can call that ceremony and private relationship whatever they want.

To the state, if they choose to formalize it, they have a Type M contract with each other, enforceable under its terms in civil court, plain and simple.
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« Reply #253 on: November 15, 2008, 03:40:38 PM »

Quote
A question for you since you are making the mistake of conflating two absolutely distinct topics.

I am replying specifically to Ron's comment that 'the gays' are out to destroy Western civilization'.

Quote
What does lawful sexual permissiveness, which we already have in the states, have to do with state recognition of marriage and the legal and economic ramifications thereof?

According to your post, a civil union provides gays couples with the same privileges as a marriage. In that case, how are the legal and economic ramifications of such a union different from those of a marriage?

Note that I have not used the term 'love' anywhere in this thread as a justification for recognition of marriage by the government.  I have only used it once, as a justification for recognition of marriage by private individuals.

You are attacking a strawman.
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Matthew Carberry
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« Reply #254 on: November 15, 2008, 03:46:48 PM »

I am replying specifically to Ron's comment that 'the gays' are out to destroy Western civilization'.

According to your post, a civil union provides gays couples with the same privileges as a marriage. In that case, how are the legal and economic ramifications of such a union different from those of a marriage?

Note that I have not used the term 'love' anywhere in this thread as a justification for recognition of marriage by the government.  I have only used it once, as a justification for recognition of marriage by private individuals.

You are attacking a strawman.

I'm not attacking at all.  smiley

You mentioned sexual permissiveness, that is irrelevent, just reiterating that.

The topic at hand is recognition by the government, nobody has to recognize private ceremonies.  There's no use mentioning those at all.

So all we need to talk about is govt. recogntion.

The issue with civil unions is that there is no consistent legal basis to limit them to two people or to deny them to related persons.

If you can't legally justify limiting them to two persons, you open such contracts to multiple partners.

Given the current state of the law in the USA, that could impact the nation, state and its citizens financially.

That's how it impacts capitalism.

Again, not attacking you.

You just really need to confine your argument to the topic at hand, talking about theory without the actual context of Prop. 8, in California, in the USA, just confuses the issue.
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« Reply #255 on: November 15, 2008, 04:08:39 PM »

Quote
You just really need to confine your argument to the topic at hand, talking about theory without the actual context of Prop. 8, in California, in the USA, just confuses the issue.

I mentioned sexual permissiveness because people on this threat spoke about it posing a threat to civilization somehow.

Quote
Given the current state of the law in the USA, that could impact the nation, state and its citizens financially.

And the financial issues related are a completely separate issue.

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« Reply #256 on: November 15, 2008, 04:20:07 PM »

And the financial issues related are a completely separate issue.


no
they are part and parcel   in fact the finance is the biggest sticking point
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« Reply #257 on: November 15, 2008, 05:09:25 PM »

If polyamorous people are not trying to get their civil unions recognised, why would they start trying to get their marriages recognised?

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« Reply #258 on: November 15, 2008, 05:16:27 PM »

Hmmm... seems like the major sticking point with the finances is something that needs to be fixed anyway.

 If company A offers a bennie package that includes covering gay (or multiple) partners, while company B will only recognize "one man one woman" for bennies, than it would seem to me that we have market forces at play.

 Maybe how about get the government out of the equation completely? Oh, wait... that's been suggested!
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« Reply #259 on: November 15, 2008, 05:19:32 PM »

Hmmm... seems like the major sticking point with the finances is something that needs to be fixed anyway.

 If company A offers a bennie package that includes covering gay (or multiple) partners, while company B will only recognize "one man one woman" for bennies, than it would seem to me that we have market forces at play.

 Maybe how about get the government out of the equation completely? Oh, wait... that's been suggested!

Company B would be charged with hate crimes, if leftists had their way.
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« Reply #260 on: November 15, 2008, 05:21:18 PM »

A statement which adds nothing to the discussion. Instead, it muddies the waters.

 We're discussing the issue of "gay marriage" and civil unions. "Hate crimes" and "hate speech" should probably be put in another thread, as the current topic is muddy enough already.
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« Reply #261 on: November 15, 2008, 05:23:12 PM »

A statement which adds nothing to the discussion. Instead, it muddies the waters.

 We're discussing the issue of "gay marriage" and civil unions. "Hate crimes" and "hate speech" should probably be put in another thread, as the current topic is muddy enough already.

I think it's part and parcel. You are literally not allowed to object to the concept in public, or you're called "hateful".
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cassandra and sara's daddy
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« Reply #262 on: November 15, 2008, 05:23:24 PM »

 If company A offers a bennie package that includes covering gay (or multiple) partners, while company B will only recognize "one man one woman" for bennies, than it would seem to me that we have market forces at play.

but in reality we have the government mandating all companies go broke equally fast
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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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« Reply #263 on: November 15, 2008, 05:24:22 PM »

Which, as I said, means maybe we should work on changing that lil' item... Wink
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« Reply #264 on: November 15, 2008, 05:30:19 PM »

i disagree about being branded a hater. i have a whole circle of gay clients and i met the first couple by arguing about gay marriage with em on the net.  they say i'm their token compassionate conservative
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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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« Reply #265 on: November 15, 2008, 07:16:01 PM »

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it a fact that throughout Americas history,  marriage was between one man and one woman, with the exception of the Morman religion?   And the Mormon plural marriages were not recognized by the government.
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« Reply #266 on: November 15, 2008, 10:42:56 PM »

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it a fact that throughout Americas history,  marriage was between one man and one woman, with the exception of the Morman religion?   And the Mormon plural marriages were not recognized by the government.

Yes (although there were many incidents of polygamy outside the Mormons, with various communities and Christian sects, as well as Native American tribes, favoring variations on the theme).

However, what does that mean?

Just because something was done that way for years doesn't mean we should keep doing it that way.
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« Reply #267 on: November 16, 2008, 07:01:12 AM »

Just because something was done that way for years doesn't mean we should keep doing it that way.

Like the Constitutution? Gee, what groups have I just recently heard that from?

Eventually, most people grow up and realize that there are very good reasons why their wise elders and ancestors kept doing something a certain way, that they don't automatically know better than generations of ancestors just because they're young.

And some people never grow out of that. They voted for "change".
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« Reply #268 on: November 16, 2008, 07:05:24 AM »

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Like the Constitutution? Gee, what groups have I just recently heard that from?

The Constitution is law. It's still in force. We can, however, consider amending it, which is a completely legitimate discussion. We can criticize it, which is completely legitimate. What is not legitimate is what the leftists do, namely ignore it.

Quote
Eventually, most people grow up and realize that there are very good reasons why their wise elders and ancestors kept doing something a certain way, that they don't automatically know better than generations of ancestors just because they're young.

And said ancestors don't automatically know better than me because they were here before me.
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« Reply #269 on: November 16, 2008, 07:22:00 AM »

The Constitution is law. It's still in force. We can, however, consider amending it, which is a completely legitimate discussion. We can criticize it, which is completely legitimate. What is not legitimate is what the leftists do, namely ignore it.


in this case it was amended and the heroes are angry

"And said ancestors don't automatically know better than me because they were here before me."  not automatically  but if you put it before a jury you might not like the results.  but i bet your a "majority of one" guy
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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MicroBalrog
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« Reply #270 on: November 16, 2008, 07:25:52 AM »

Quote
in this case it was amended and the heroes are angry

Apparently it is not okay to criticize the majority. Also, the actions of these guys in California definitely reflect upon my own character, despite the fact I was not there.

Quote
but if you put it before a jury you might not like the results. 

What do juries have to do with it?

Manedwolf argued that stuff that's been legislated ages ago should not be changed because the old dudes were really really smart somehow. That I disagree with it doesn't mean I will not obey the law.
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Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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« Reply #271 on: November 16, 2008, 07:31:12 AM »

i was referring to putting this question "And said ancestors don't automatically know better than me because they were here before me"  before a jury
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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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« Reply #272 on: November 16, 2008, 09:35:17 AM »

A statement which adds nothing to the discussion. Instead, it muddies the waters.

 We're discussing the issue of "gay marriage" and civil unions. "Hate crimes" and "hate speech" should probably be put in another thread, as the current topic is muddy enough already.

You seem to be operating under the impression that the leftists have benign and noble motivations.  You seem to think that the only thing they care about is being treated "equal" by the state.  That is simply not the case.  Even if they succeeded in getting gay marriage, name and all, they would not be satisfied.  So long are they are people who do not personally agree with their behavior, the left will attack those people.  So long as there are religions that teach that homosexuality is deviant, the left will attack said religions.  You seem to think this is a battle over "equal" state protections.  It's not.  It's a battle in which that side wants to ruin and stamp out anyone who disagrees with them in their minds, even if they are treated the same.
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MicroBalrog
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« Reply #273 on: November 16, 2008, 09:45:29 AM »

What is it about 'the left'?

Not everybody who agrees with these people on this one issue is a leftist
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« Reply #274 on: November 16, 2008, 10:38:05 AM »

>You seem to be operating under the impression that the leftists have benign and noble motivations.  You seem to think that the only thing they care about is being treated "equal" by the state.  That is simply not the case.<

Not at all: I know just how twisted some leftists are. However, trying to discuss every failing they have, in a thread that was about "gay marriage", just muddies the waters...

 Personally, I love the idea of passing an omnibus bill at the federal level, called the "Full Faith and Credit Act of 2009". It would do exactly 2 things:

1) Force all states to recognize concealed carry permits from any other state

2) Force all states to recognize marriage liscenses (or civil union paperwork) from any other state

Both (to my mind) are full faith & credit clause issues. And yes, it IS still a question of "equality": for two people of the same sex to enjoy the same protections as a "straight" couple, they have to jump through numerous hoops and spend loads of money (as opposed to Spoon & I, who simply paid the JP $75 or so). That's an inequality: one group has a special status because of a perceived benefit to society (and one that is becoming less and less real).
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No Child Should Live In Fear

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Screw it: just autoclave the planet (thanks Birdman)
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