Author Topic: What religion DOES NOT require mans wealth to prosper?  (Read 8124 times)

telewinz

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What religion DOES NOT require mans wealth to prosper?
« on: October 16, 2005, 03:18:55 AM »
It seems to me that an almighty deity would not need/require man's tangible wealth to prosper if it were legitimate...for any reason or justification(self-serving?).  Or is that too much to ask of a supreme being?  If an ant colony should decide to worship YOU, would you need or want some material "wealth" from them?  Or is the concept of sacrifice/donation to the god(s) just a carry over from ancient times to insure the priests received their "cut"?
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Ben

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What religion DOES NOT require mans wealth to prosper?
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2005, 04:50:06 AM »
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If an ant colony should decide to worship YOU, would you need or want some material "wealth" from them?
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What religion DOES NOT require mans wealth to prosper?
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2005, 05:18:31 AM »
I know plenty of clergymen who accept a "$0" per year salary, all cash goes to building new places to worship or to charitable activities. I guess I'm not sure what your arguement is...?

telewinz

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What religion DOES NOT require mans wealth to prosper?
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2005, 07:26:19 AM »
Quote from: Daniel Flory
I know plenty of clergymen who accept a "$0" per year salary, all cash goes to building new places to worship or to charitable activities. I guess I'm not sure what your arguement is...?
It's simple;  is their a religion that does not require the wealth of it's worshippers to prosper?  An almighty deity requiring material wealth is like a millionaire relying on a charity operated soup-kitchen.
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jefnvk

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What religion DOES NOT require mans wealth to prosper?
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2005, 07:48:11 AM »
I don't quite get where you are going with this.  My best guess is that you are wondering why they pass around an offering basket at church?

Needless to say, buildings and materials cost money.
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The Rabbi

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What religion DOES NOT require mans wealth to prosper?
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2005, 08:51:11 AM »
Quote from: jefnvk
I don't quite get where you are going with this.  My best guess is that you are wondering why they pass around an offering basket at church?

Needless to say, buildings and materials cost money.
I agree I don't know where this is going.
Sacrifices are not necessarily "for" the deity.  They could easily be for the worshipper as well.
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Justin

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What religion DOES NOT require mans wealth to prosper?
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2005, 08:54:13 AM »
I'm not aware of any modern mainstream church that requires you pony up cash money to get into heaven.

Most churches rely on donations to keep the power on, send out missionaries, and do things like set up soup kitchens and food pantries.  Given that we live in a quasi-capitalist society, I don't quite understand how one would go about accomplishing these things without money.
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Strings

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What religion DOES NOT require mans wealth to prosper?
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2005, 09:44:07 AM »
Even most pagan traditions require a bit of sacrifice on the part of members, wether it's money to help buy supplies or time to clean ritual space/teach newcomers/etc.

 If you're refering to the "televangelist" type thing: I don't really see them as representatives of a religion, but more an example of a cult of personality...

telewinz

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What religion DOES NOT require mans wealth to prosper?
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2005, 12:33:40 PM »
Hm mm, maybe it's the subject matter that's causing such a communications block.  I still don't understand why a deity requires the wealth of it's worshippers to survive/prosper.  An imaginary deity, yes because it's not real.  Sounds like the success of a religion is based on nothing more than it's advertising budget.
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The Rabbi

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What religion DOES NOT require mans wealth to prosper?
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2005, 01:07:06 PM »
People here have given two responses to your question:
1) The money requested goes not to the deity per se but to keeping up the worldly institutions dedicated to it.
2) The money is requested not because the deity has any need for it for but because the mere act of giving is beneficial to man.

What problems are you having with those two answers?  Others: have I summarized your responses adequately?
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Marnoot

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What religion DOES NOT require mans wealth to prosper?
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2005, 01:24:05 PM »
I'll have to agree with The Rabbi's summary. One purpose of tithes/offerings/etc., in churches is to keep the temporal institutions dedicated to serving/worshipping God operational and able to help. Another, perhaps more important purpose, is the principle of sacrifice. If God so desired, he could zap money into accounts for the churches to use, but that defeats the principles of faith and sacrifice. God doesn't need our money, he doesn't need us to worship him. He asks these things of us for our own good, and for the good of those around us.

grampster

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What religion DOES NOT require mans wealth to prosper?
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2005, 01:26:24 PM »
None of them.
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telewinz

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What religion DOES NOT require mans wealth to prosper?
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2005, 01:28:49 PM »
And you base this apon what?

The main purpose of the tithe was to support the Levitical priesthood. The Levites were responsible to minister to the people, and were prohibited from owning land, which obviously limited the ways in which they could earn income. Gods plan was that their support came from those to whom they ministered, much like the direction of Scripture for the Church today (1 Cor. 9:1ff; Gal. 6:6ff, etc.). The tithe also provided welfare for widows, orphans, etc.  What about Malachi 3:6-10? That says people who do not tithe are robbing God.

I ake again, what religion (including pagan) doesn't rely on the material wealth of it's worshippers to prosper/survive?  If you don't know of one...just say I don't know.
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The Rabbi

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What religion DOES NOT require mans wealth to prosper?
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2005, 01:37:39 PM »
Thats a very different question from what you asked initially.  No, I dont know any religions like that off-hand.  Any religion, any organization, that incurs expenses in any way must find some means to fund them.
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Antibubba

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What religion DOES NOT require mans wealth to prosper?
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2005, 01:56:39 PM »
Look up "Jainism".  That might be the answer you're looking for.
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jefnvk

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What religion DOES NOT require mans wealth to prosper?
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2005, 02:26:24 PM »
Quote
I still don't understand why a deity requires the wealth of it's worshippers to survive/prosper.
So you want to know why the diety just doesn't make the money appear?  The heck if I know.  Might as well just ask why the diety doesn't force everyone to believe in them.
I still say 'Give Detroit to Canada'

grampster

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What religion DOES NOT require mans wealth to prosper?
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2005, 02:29:53 PM »
The key word in the question is "require".  Thus, none of them.
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

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What religion DOES NOT require mans wealth to prosper?
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2005, 02:46:37 PM »
I think I understand.
There HAVE been some who have done unconscionable things in the name of religion.
The whole Jim Bakker 'resort for Jesus' thing where the money was diverted into his own lavish lifestyle (and Tammy Faye's makeup fund Wink ); many other greedy and less than honest characters shedding tears of sincerity to save our souls as long as we send the largest denomination bill we have in our wallets.

Regardless of which side of the fence you're one re: religion, I think we've all seen enough dastardly deeds done in the name of Gawd to turn us off.

The one thing I frequently have to remind myself is this:
It's not the Creator pulling the shell game, it's the (fallen) creation.

I wouldn't mind discovering that there is a special place of eternal torment reserved for those that encourage little old ladies to send their Social Security check in the name of the Lord so Reverend Dudley Dogood can buy a new Lexus...er, I mean, feed the starving children.

telewinz

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What religion DOES NOT require mans wealth to prosper?
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2005, 03:55:38 PM »
What deity would exist without the donated wealth?  All the past (forgotten?) gods soon died after their worshipers.  Is there a connection between wealth and the health of deities?
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Standing Wolf

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What religion DOES NOT require mans wealth to prosper?
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2005, 04:31:09 PM »
I've never required anything of those who worship me.
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griz

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What religion DOES NOT require mans wealth to prosper?
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2005, 06:36:34 PM »
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What deity would exist without the donated wealth?
Rabbi already answered that question, the checks are written to the church, not God. Apparently there is no example of God's (physical) signature, so ironically no bank would trust him Tongue
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Justin

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What religion DOES NOT require mans wealth to prosper?
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2005, 06:38:45 PM »
Yeah, Standing Wolf, but telewinz has never given you any money, hence you must not exist.

This is a conundrum of positively existential proportions.
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matis

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What religion DOES NOT require mans wealth to prosper?
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2005, 07:30:15 PM »
telewinz,  There are crooked priests and clerics just as there are non-believers who ask crooked question simply to mock believers.

Your question is nonsensical on its face.  And you know it.  And your further "clarifications" show it.

In the mood to make fun of people tonight, are you?



Now give us your pained protestations of innocense, why don't you?



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What religion DOES NOT require mans wealth to prosper?
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2005, 07:50:21 PM »
Well...the faith I was raised in has some very good attitudes towards "doing things on the cheap", using all-volunteer ministers, lowering printing costs, not even passing a plate around, just making a once-a-month financial statement of less than two minutes telling how much is in the congregation bank account, what the bills were, how much is there positive/negative.  If it's low there'll be a few extra bucks in the contribution box in the back - which is purely anonymous unless somebody drops a check in and money from each parishioner isn't tracked.  They even figured out a special ink that would print on cigarette paper (the cheapest they could score) so they could sell bibles and whatnot at really low prices ($2 a pop for bibles last I heard, which was 1980s...)

In 3rd world countries or similar they're willing to do without church buildings, just meet...basically anywhere handy.

They experimented with radio evangelism in the 1920s-30s era but realized it was costing too much, forcing money-begging which they otherwise didn't do (and haven't since).

I'm not one now because...I don't think they've got the WHOLE truth like they think they do...but there's a lot to admire about them.  The Jehovah's Witnesses.  (And a lot *annoying* of course Cheesy...like, say, the belief that God will take back control over the world once they've knocked on every single door...hence they *track* that I kid you not...)

What else...one of the three weekly meetings breaks the congregation up into pieces and uses people's homes.  That's "plan b" in case they lose the main congregation building or if there's persecution...yeah, they literally have plans on how to go underground, even in the US.  Given they were flat-out banned in the US during WW2 (and it was a LOT worse in Germany, the USSR, etc.) it's not completely irrational.

Funny story: there's only one "ornately massively overdecorated" JW church building...and they got it by accident.  They bought an old theater back east somewhere, intending to turn it into one of the larger regional "assembly halls".  It looked plain enough.  Once the all-volunteer crew started digging though, they realized they'd stumbled on an old 1920s-era "movie palace" - the monster of a chandellier was in pieces in storage, ditto the original red velour seats in bad shape, there was an entire replacement ceiling covering up a big guilt dome, the doors were solid brass under about 20 layers of paint...it went on and on.

They did a bit of research, gathered the volunteers together, said "hey, it'd be more work to restore this place to original, we could also just do functional, let's take a vote".  The vote (by the volunteers) was to do a restoration.  They give tours during the week when not otherwise in use...it's the only JW building anywhere that could give parts of the Vatican a run for it's money Cheesy.

Antibubba

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What religion DOES NOT require mans wealth to prosper?
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2005, 08:49:24 PM »
Telewinz,
   It isn't about money, it's about sacrifice.  Money is merely a convenient medium of measuring sacrifice.  If I am poor, I can assist in the sweeping or trimming the grass, perhaps after services.  If I'm wealthy I can fund a bigger building, or help buy new prayer books, or sponsor missionaries.  But the "organized" in "organized religion" implies that effort of some sort is taking place, and effort takes energy, time, labor.  And money is an excellent indicator of work, production, and in the case of giving to a church, a measure of what a member is willing to give up to prove-primarily to himself, one hopes-his devotion to his beliefs.
If life gives you melons, you may be dyslexic.