Universal Health Care

[Chris189]

If you oppose Universal Health Care what other altenatives are there? I think most would agree the state of health care is the US in bad shape.

[CDiPrecision Gunworks]

Be more specific as to what u mean healthcare is in a bad shape.

The main reason insurance/costs are so high is due to the stupid lawyers . Tort reform would fix most of the problem and eliminate the need for testing to cover the doctors ass.

Healthcare here is better than anywhere in the world. Universla healthcare will not work on this large of a population(it barley works in smaller populated countries). In some socialist countries you have to wait years before you can have things done.. it is no solution.

[El Tejon]

In bad shape?  Are you taking about how fat everyone is?

If we are in "bad shape" why are people from other countries coming here?  The solution to any "problems" is to remove socialism and let doctors practice medicine and make money (instead of filling out forms).

Look at cosmetic surgery or laser eye correction.  Make all of medicine exactly like these procedures. 

[Leatherneck]

I think most would agree the state of health care is the US in bad shape.

Au Contraire. I've recently gone through two fairly serious health scares, and the one thing that sticks in my memory is the exhaustive batteries of tests that led up to favorable diagnoses in both cases. None of the tests cost me a nickel, beyond the $379 per month I pay for group health insurance. This was at a smallish suburban hospital complex in NoVA.

TC

[Nitrogen]

If you've ever been sick with no insurance, you might agree that something needs to be done, otherwise, yeah, not much is wrong, as long as you either have a lot of money, or good insurance through your job.

[K Frame]

Not politics.

[pinoyinus]

I think most would agree the state of health care is the US in bad shape

We may not have the best but to say that it is in bad shape is just not true.  We are in much better shape than most countries with universal health care.  My sister in New Zealand was asked to wait 2 months to have a biopsy.  Here in the US, whether you have insurance or not, the biopsy will be done in days as soon as the doctors suspect cancerous tissue.  What's driving up the cost of health care are:

- excessive litigation / unreasonable jury awards
- non-paying / uninsured patients (a good portion if not a majority are illegal immigrants)
- govt. regulations - Some states require coverage for alcohol/substance abuse on all policies.  Some require that all health insurance carriers are from within the state (limiting competition and market efficiencies).
- to some extent, the profit margin of health care companies and excessive CEO compensation.

Some of the things that can be done are:
- tort reform - limit the jury awards for pain and suffering.  Have an automatic "losers pay" system so that ambulance chasers stand to lose something when they fail to get a guilty verdict.  But at the same time, have a strict policy on doctors who have a history of malpractice.  Have a 3 or 5 strike rule so that once a doctor has reached his limit, his license is suspended for n years.
- enforce immigration laws.  If people insist that they be free to not buy health insurance, then allow the hospitals to be free to turn patients away when they have reasonable suspicion that the bills will not be paid.  Otherwise, require all to have minimum coverage (at least for emergency cases).
- deregulate - allow patients to buy the coverage they need and remove those that they can do without.  Allow inter-state competition.
- and my favorite - put a cap on CEO pay for publicly traded companies.  The cap however, should not be an arbitrary number but it should be a ratio between the average rank-and-file salary and the CEO's total compensation.

[makattak]

- and my favorite - put a cap on CEO pay for publicly traded companies.  The cap however, should not be an arbitrary number but it should be a ratio between the average rank-and-file salary and the CEO's total compensation.

Ah yes, the solution to all our problems is to stop paying CEO's so much money!!!!

Please, PLEASE come save us, government! Those greedy corporate executives are stealing my money by force!

Oh wait, only one entity in this country has a monopoly on force...

So, MAYBE those executives get paid so much because they are worth it.

If they aren't, why doesn't some other, private company just cut costs and beat them out?

Here's a clue, it's never the fault of the market. It's the fault of government interference and seperates costs from benefits.

Instead of MORE government involvement (as they are involved in over 40% of medical care now), let's try less and see if that solves it.




NOW, can someone tell me why government interference is the only problem where the solution is more of it?

[Kwelz]

Is healthcare in the US perfect?  Of course not.  However the answer is not to make it worse by putting the .Gov in charge. 

[MechAg94]

IMO, I think most of the problems are either caused by government regulation or over-reliance on 3rd party payers where patients never see the bill. 

If 3rd party payers were eliminated tomorrow, doctors and hospitals would do just like the lasik eye surgery guys and have all sorts of financing options for people.  It wouldn't do them any good to kick out patients since few people could write checks for some of the testing done these days. 

[RaspberrySurprise]

Ah yes, the solution to all our problems is to stop paying CEO's so much money!!!!

Please, PLEASE come save us, government! Those greedy corporate executives are stealing my money by force!

Oh wait, only one entity in this country has a monopoly on force...

So, MAYBE those executives get paid so much because they are worth it.

If they aren't, why doesn't some other, private company just cut costs and beat them out?

Here's a clue, it's never the fault of the market. It's the fault of government interference and seperates costs from benefits.

Instead of MORE government involvement (as they are involved in over 40% of medical care now), let's try less and see if that solves it.




NOW, can someone tell me why government interference is the only problem where the solution is more of it?

You mean like all those CEOs of failed banks which still stand to receive their bonuses? The US has developed a culture of paying CEOs far more than they really are worth even when the company is spiralling towards the ground.

[K Frame]

"The US has developed a culture of paying CEOs far more than they really are worth even when the company is spiralling towards the ground."

So you're perfectly fine with the concept of the government stepping into determine exactly what an individual's services are worth?

Interesting.

Tell me, where should it end?

If CEOs, why not attorneys and doctors?

If attorneys and doctors, why not teachers and system administrators?

If teachers and administrators, why not simply make EVERYONE subject to the same sort of worth analysis?

                                                                                       

[ctdonath]

I think most would agree the state of health care is the US in bad shape.

Where did you get that idea? besides having been told it so much you just believe it.

I recently went thru major surgery. Couldn't ask for better health care, PERIOD. They did an amazingly good job, both medically and bureaucratically. Out-of-pocket cost was about 2% of 6-digit total. Paperwork was easy. Processing was fast & efficient. Recovery was rapid and nearly flawless.

Most people DO have good health insurance. I mean seriously: most people have little to complain about.

Of the relatively few who allegedly don't have good health insurance:
- many choose not to. The young and healthy often choose to go without, take the risk, and apply the money elsewhere. Ya makes yer choices and takes yer lumps.
- some can afford it but don't. This gets into the very fuzzy area of what constitutes "can't afford", as in "if you have cable TV and eat out often, get your priorities straight". Plan ahead; stuff happens, be ready.
- a few can't afford ideal coverage. Face it: ideal medical care is VERY VERY EXPENSIVE. I hate to be cold-hearted, yet have to say "cope" when it comes to many conditions (and you know what I mean, don't twist this sentence). You may very well have to choose some of the less desirable (but still very acceptable) options.
- a few simply can't afford it. This is actually a very small number relative to the overall population. You want the government to help them? Fine - but don't lump in the 99% who can take care of their own medical issues & costs.

You want free care? Walk into the ER. There's a sign by the entrance saying "you will be treated without regard to ability to pay." Yes they'll hand you a bill, which you can work out with them. Most people can pay SOMETHING, even if it's $10/month for life. Extremely few truly can't pay, so stop with the "but what if they can't pay" BS - the system eats those costs anyway.

The health care itself is top-notch. If anything, it's over-the-top because doctors are persuaded to make sure NOTHING gets by them - which, very understandably, gets rather expensive real fast. Face it: the USA has the best health care system in the world, easily accessed by most people WITHOUT a "universal health care" beaurocracy. Yes, there are a few horror stories, many of which are bogus (ex.: can't afford $50/month for meds but can afford $50/month for TV), some of which are inevitable screwups (of 300,000,000 people, SOMEONE will have a problem), and some of which are valid (sure, let's make a safety net for the truly needy).

We have Medicare, Medicaid, walk-in no-questions ER, and a host of other programs in place to catch the few who truly can't swing their own health care costs. We have a fantastically advanced and efficient medical infrastructure. Expensive? heck yeah, that's reality - and yet an incredible amount is done to make it accessible to all.

NOW... explain to me again why you think the state of health care is the US in bad shape. Don't just regurgitate the talking points, address what I just wrote.

[ctdonath]

You mean like all those CEOs of failed banks which still stand to receive their bonuses? The US has developed a culture of paying CEOs far more than they really are worth even when the company is spiralling towards the ground.

Well, yeah - what do you expect when a large corporation can fail and the government will pour gobs of money into it? The money is there, they'll take it. Bank fails? oh, FDIC will make sure all the accounts are covered - ergo the top managers dip into the non-depositor-account coffers and take their legally-mandated bonuses. When a bank "fails", it really doesn't - the money & paperwork just gets shuffled around differently. Remember all those banks that "failed" recently? They're still up & running, just under different names & managers. Nothing "failed".

[pinoyinus]

Isn't it strange that a lot of the so called "poor" can afford cell phones but cannot afford health insurance?  Recent articles attribute the growth of iPhone sales to those with income between 25K - 50K.  Sales to those with income of 100K and above show a modest growth of 16% but 48% growth from those in the said lower income bracket.

http://www.edibleapple.com/lower-income-consumers-drive-iphone-growth/
http://ipod.about.com/b/2008/04/15/teens-drive-iphone-sales.htm



So they have the money to plunk down on toys but they want everyone else to pay for their healthcare. 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

You mean like all those CEOs of failed banks which still stand to receive their bonuses? The US has developed a culture of paying CEOs far more than they really are worth even when the company is spiralling towards the ground.

To quote from another thread, only whinny little bitches care how much money other people make.

As for the state of health care in the US, what's so wrong about it?  The best health care anywhere in the world is available here.  Yeah, sure, that health care is expensive.  Good services of any sort are costly.  TANSTAAFL. 

If you want those services, then go out and earn the money and buy them.  If you don't want those services, then don't bother.  It's you're choice.  This is a free country, after all.  Sort of.

[Werewolf]

If you oppose Universal Health Care what other altenatives are there? I think most would agree the state of health care is the US in bad shape.

Most?

MOST?

What's the number of uninsured in the US? 30 Million out of 300 Million? That's only 10%. I suspect that's what your worried about - the uninsured.

But the uninsured really don't have to worry much. All they have to do is walk into any emergency room, complain and they get treated. My scumbag of a brother is on welfare and is being treated with interferon for Hep C over a 9 month period. The worthless teat is costing the taxpayers thousands and thousands of dollars, maybe 100's of thousands for all I know and he's never earned an honest dollar in his life. It's no different for any other worthless teat. All they have to do is ask.

With insurance you can get what ever health care you need or want. What you can't get insurance to pay you probably don't really need anyway. In and out of the doctor's office on the same day you call in for an appointment  for important stuff in my and my family's experience. And the care you get you get from competent well trained doctors (yeah - yeah there's some boobs out there but I don't imagine they last too long as Doctors). For the less important stuff like having a wart removed off your backside you might have to wait a week or so but so what. That's instantaneous compared to some places like Canada or Britain where you might have to wait 6 months or a year for a heart operation to save your life. In the US you'd get that same day if necessary.

The only people that think the state of healthcare in this country is BAD are the sheep and bleeding hearts who believe the crap politicians (who know it's not true) feed to them.

[ronnyreagan]

The only people that think the state of healthcare in this country is BAD are the sheep and bleeding hearts who believe the crap politicians (who know it's not true) feed to them.

"I'm smart and everyone who disagrees with me is dumb!"

You want free care? Walk into the ER. There's a sign by the entrance saying "you will be treated without regard to ability to pay."

One of the main areas I think our system has problems is in preventative care. Universal health care seems to do a better job of treating small problems before they become large (expensive) problems. Letting everyone get coverage through the emergency room, the most expensive and probably least effective way possible, is not at all efficient.

While I'd rather not pay for some bum to get free check-ups, it's better than paying for his trips to the emergency room that will cost 10 times more.

[Physics]

Healthcare is 90% on you.  What causes most disease?  Lifestyle.  If you don't exercise regularly or eat healthy, why should I have to pay for your healthcare?  This is my only problem with universal healthcare.  I don't mind taking care of people who are taking care of themselves, everyone needs a little help occasionally.  However, I think the people who don't help themselves do not deserve to receive help from anyone else.  Same way I feel about "spreading the wealth", why the hell should I be helping people who don't/won't help themselves. 

Other factors that I think play a role:

-insurance companies need some kind of oversight.  People shouldn't have to worry if their insurance is going to cover their illness. 
-alternative medicine needs more attention.  Drugs don't solve everything.  Drug companies also have way too much power over the FDA.
-illegal immigration
-malpractice lawsuits (but at the same time, doctors must be held to a high standard)


I think the major question here is:  Is healthcare a right?  Do we have the right to healthcare, or the priviledge?  I remain torn on this matter.  Not everyone that works hard has access to affordable healthcare. 

[Werewolf]

I think the major question here is:  Is healthcare a right?  Do we have the right to healthcare, or the priviledge?  I remain torn on this matter.  Not everyone that works hard has access to affordable healthcare. 

In a socialist hell-hole - healthcare is a right.

In a free society health care is a personal responsibility.

[buzz_knox]

While I'd rather not pay for some bum to get free check-ups, it's better than paying for his trips to the emergency room that will cost 10 times more.

All you'll end up with is paying for the ER trips along with the "free" check ups.  The ER trips are usually due to lifestyle choices, which the check up won't fix . . . unless you want to begin mandating how people live their lives down to the least detail.  Perhaps along with universal health care we can have prison sentences for making socially unacceptable food choices.

Socialized medicine is great, until you run into the problem that you can't pay for more than a basic level of care for everyone so the system starts deciding who is more valuable.  That's why people who can afford quality care go elsewhere.  It's not just that they can afford to do so; it's that they want to need to get treatment that the socialized medical system cannot provide in time (waiting time for CAT scans can be in months, which is a death sentence for many conditions) or won't.

[Physics]

In a socialist hell-hole - healthcare is a right.

In a free society health care is a personal responsibility.

I agree for the most part, but not always.  What about kids with cancer?  What about my buddy who is working on his physics bachelors while working 2 restaurant jobs and has diabetes (not many restaurants offer healthcare)?  Once he has his degree and a good job he'll have insurance again, but for now he's rather screwed, he pays for everything out of pocket. 

Like I said, I think that ~90% of healthcare is your responsibility.  Lifestyle is very obviously a major contributing factor for disease, but so is environment.  I guess what I'm saying is that it's not so cut and dry as you are suggesting. 

Obviously there are people in this country who work hard, and if they get very sick, they are in deep trouble.  Is that right?  I'm not talking about the bums, I really don't care about most of them.  I'm specifically talking about the people who work hard at jobs that do not offer healthcare to employees.  What about them? 



By the way, this is a really weird conversation for me, I'm usually debating democrats on how much I hate universal healthcare. 

[makattak]

I agree for the most part, but not always.  What about kids with cancer?  What about my buddy who is working on his physics bachelors while working 2 restaurant jobs and has diabetes (not many restaurants offer healthcare)?  Once he has his degree and a good job he'll have insurance again, but for now he's rather screwed, he pays for everything out of pocket. 

Like I said, I think that ~90% of healthcare is your responsibility.  Lifestyle is very obviously a major contributing factor for disease, but so is environment.  I guess what I'm saying is that it's not so cut and dry as you are suggesting. 

Obviously there are people in this country who work hard, and if they get very sick, they are in deep trouble.  Is that right?  I'm not talking about the bums, I really don't care about most of them.  I'm specifically talking about the people who work hard at jobs that do not offer healthcare to employees.  What about them? 



By the way, this is a really weird conversation for me, I'm usually debating democrats on how much I hate universal healthcare. 

Don't we have CHARITIES for such things?

Why is it, when people see suffering, they think- I need to force other people to pay for that!

How about asking people to pay for it. You'd be surpised, the U.S. is the most charitable place on earth.

Why is it everyone thinks the government MUST BE the solution?

[Werewolf]

Obviously there are people in this country who work hard, and if they get very sick, they are in deep trouble.  Is that right?  I'm not talking about the bums, I really don't care about most of them.  I'm specifically talking about the people who work hard at jobs that do not offer healthcare to employees.  What about them? 

It's sad. Really, I mean it. It is sad and even tragic that some deserving folk, through no fault of their own other than bad genes or just rotten luck, cannot afford the healthcare they need. Some would say it isn't fair.

But - well - that's life. It ain't fair. GOD doesn't hand out certificates of fairness when one is born guaranteeing that life will always be fair.

SUCKS!

But what ya gonna do?

OH WAIT! I know. The socialists want to steal our money and spread it around so that everyone gets access to healthcare. Yeah that's the ticket. Spread it around. AND Pay government doctors diddly squat so the smart ones go where they aren't paid diddly squat and those who aren't doctors but want to be except they don't want to work for diddly squat don't become doctors and what you're left with are incompetent boobs and too few of them to treat real problems so everyone gets to suffer.

YEAH! THAT'S FAIR. THAT'S FAIR...

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Don't we have CHARITIES for such things?

Why is it, when people see suffering, they think- I need to force other people to pay for that!

How about asking people to pay for it. You'd be surpised, the U.S. is the most charitable place on earth.

Why is it everyone thinks the government MUST BE the solution?

Of course we have charities for that sort of thing.  But we're going to ignore the roll of charities, because that let's government take over the health care industry and control everyone's lives.