Author Topic: Valley gun seller on trial for alleged ties to drug cartels  (Read 4822 times)

Grandpa Shooter

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,079
Valley gun seller on trial for alleged ties to drug cartels
« on: March 09, 2009, 01:40:42 PM »
PHOENIX (AP) -- Prosecutors want a Phoenix gun dealer with alleged ties to Mexican drug cartels permanently put out of business as his trial begins on Monday.
 
George Iknadosian, 47, was arrested in May 2008 after an 11-month investigation.
 
Also arrested were Hugo Gamez, 27, and his brother 28-year-old Cesar Gamez. Both are Mexicans in the United States legally, and both are alleged arms traffickers.
 
The arrests came in conjunction with a May 2008, Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms raid. 
 
Agents took about 1,300 guns from X Caliber Guns, near Cave Creek and Thunderbird roads, and from its owner’s Glendale home according to Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard.
 
Prosecutors accuse Iknadosian of selling more than 700 "weapons of choice" to straw buyers, knowing that the firearms like AK 47's were bought on behalf of Mexican narcotics syndicates.
 
In one case, Mexican police records show eight federal officers were killed in a firefight with gangsters who outgunned officers using weapons from Iknadosian's Phoenix gun store.
 
Iknadosian has pleaded not guilty to charges of forgery, fraud, money laundering and operating a criminal syndicate.

Another version of the story goes on the cite how many people died in fire fights in which guns sold by this man were used.  This is the sort of thing which just fuels the fires in the war on guns.

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,987
Re: Valley gun seller on trial for alleged ties to drug cartels
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2009, 01:54:40 PM »
Quote
In one case, Mexican police records show eight federal officers were killed in a firefight with gangsters who outgunned officers using weapons from Iknadosian's Phoenix gun store.

And what US gun laws were broken in this situation?

X-caliber Arms is (was) a nasty little place and not located in a choice part of town.  Iknadosian was probably presented with a LOT more potential straw purchasers than your nice suburban or rural gun store deals with, given the fact that he is right on the edge of "little mexico" of north phoenix.

That doesn't excuse him from 700+ "mistakes."  Someone working in that part of town needs to do his due dilligence when choosing to cater to that neighborhood as a customer base.  Iknadosian didn't.

I do take humbrage to the insinuation that those Mexican feds are on a legal parity with our own law enforcement agents, though.  And that those deaths should have any bearing in our legal system.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

gunsmith

  • I forgot to get vaccinated!
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,187
  • I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Re: Valley gun seller on trial for alleged ties to drug cartels
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2009, 02:27:59 PM »
And what US gun laws were broken in this situation?

X-caliber Arms is (was) a nasty little place and not located in a choice part of town.  Iknadosian was probably presented with a LOT more potential straw purchasers than your nice suburban or rural gun store deals with, given the fact that he is right on the edge of "little mexico" of north phoenix.

That doesn't excuse him from 700+ "mistakes."  Someone working in that part of town needs to do his due dilligence when choosing to cater to that neighborhood as a customer base.  Iknadosian didn't.

I do take humbrage to the insinuation that those Mexican feds are on a legal parity with our own law enforcement agents, though.  And that those deaths should have any bearing in our legal system.
You do not take humbrage, you take umbrage.  (gosh darn it!) :lol:


Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

Grandpa Shooter

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,079
Re: Valley gun seller on trial for alleged ties to drug cartels
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2009, 03:29:03 PM »
Here is the more detailed story for those who want the in depth view.  I don't view this as a national or ethic issue.  I see this as one more spike about to be driven into the hearts of gun owners nationwide.  This type of flagrant disregard for the existing prohibitions on gun purchases by one FFL will have ripples throughout the country.



Law-enforcement agents on both sides of the U.S.-Mexican border will be watching closely today as a Valley businessman accused of supplying assault rifles to Mexican drug cartels goes on trial.

The case has drawn international attention as a landmark effort against gunrunning and because of the cooperative work between Mexican and U.S. authorities. Mexican prosecutors sat in on suspect interviews and provided investigative materials for the case.

Court papers claim dealers in Arizona and other states bordering Mexico provide three- quarters of the black-market firearms to Mexico, a nation that strictly controls gun ownership. Phoenix is considered a hub for illegal exportation of AK-47s, SKS rifles, .50-caliber rifles and other weapons favored by narcotics gangsters.
Authorities hope to stem the flow of weapons, which are bought at stores and gun shows and then smuggled into Mexico, by cracking down on illegal sales at gun stores.

In Phoenix, a store called X-Caliber was raided last year after multiple weapons in Mexican shootouts were traced back to the store. Owner George Iknadosian, 47, is accused of selling more than 700 "weapons of choice" to straw buyers, knowing that the firearms were bought on behalf of narcotics syndicates.

His co-defendants have pleaded guilty, with most getting reduced charges and sentences in return for cooperation with the prosecution.

"The important part of this case is the number of weapons that ended up at crime scenes in Mexico," Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard said. "There's no question that he (Iknadosian) was a specialist. He was able to get the weapons they wanted in the volumes they needed."

Iknadosian has pleaded not guilty to charges of forgery, fraud, money laundering and operating a criminal syndicate. Defense filings in a related civil forfeiture case suggest that any violation of law stemmed from a misinterpretation of federal regulations. His trial before Maricopa County Superior Court Judge Robert Gottsfield is expected to run nearly three weeks.

A year ago, Goddard signed a pact to fight organized crime with about two dozen attorneys general from both sides of the border. Mexican law enforcement sought U.S. help in tracking firearms after weapons used in cartel battles with police were traced to Arizona.

More than 6,000 people were killed in drug violence south of the U.S. border last year, Goddard's office said. Prosecutors believe that illegal arms from America figure prominently in those slayings and in the killings of 2,000 Mexican law officers.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives reports that 7,700 guns recovered in Mexico last year were traced to American sales, more than double the number in 2007.

In one case, Mexican police records say, eight federales were killed in a firefight with gangsters who outgunned the police using weapons from X-Caliber.

More firearms from the store were involved in a Nogales ambush that took the life of Sonora's chief anti-narcotics agent, Goddard said.

Some of the gunrunners, who also worked as Valley supermarket employees, told investigators they sold the weapons directly to Mexican police on the streets of Nogales. A Colt .38 Super, one of the most powerful auto-loading pistols made, was confiscated during the arrest of Alfredo "El Mochomo" Beltran Leyva, a narco captain who oversaw drug transportation, money laundering, bribery and paramilitary units for a major cartel, according to Mexican police records.

Iknadosian, a native of Egypt, had been a gun dealer in California until 2004. Prosecutors say he moved to Arizona for its more lenient firearm regulations.

In May, after an 11-month probe, Phoenix police and ATF agents raided Iknadosian's business and Glendale residence, seizing about 1,300 weapons.

Iknadosian and nine co-defendants - suspected of being buyers for the cartels - were charged in a 21-count indictment.

In civil court, the state is seeking to take Iknadosian's real estate, bank accounts, firearms and other property, alleging that X-Caliber took in $373,640 from illicit gun sales. Iknadosian is contesting the forfeiture. His court response says the sale of 711 rifles and pistols sold over a 21-month period represents normal business for Phoenix-area gun shops.


Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: Valley gun seller on trial for alleged ties to drug cartels
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2009, 03:33:37 PM »
Quote
A Colt .38 Super, one of the most powerful auto-loading pistols made, was confiscated during the arrest of Alfredo "El Mochomo" Beltran Leyva, a narco captain who oversaw drug transportation, money laundering, bribery and paramilitary units for a major cartel, according to Mexican police records.

Really. A caliber that's practically nonexistent in the US, but legal in Mexico due to the "no military calibers" law.

Maybe now ATF will have their excuse to crack down on C&Rs for fun. After all, someone could buy up lots of old Star 9mm largos and be a druglord's private gun supplier, need to inspect them all the time!
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 03:42:24 PM by Manedwolf »

makattak

  • Dark Lord of the Cis
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,022
Re: Valley gun seller on trial for alleged ties to drug cartels
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2009, 03:35:44 PM »
Quote
Some of the gunrunners, who also worked as Valley supermarket employees, told investigators they sold the weapons directly to Mexican police on the streets of Nogales. A Colt .38 Super, one of the most powerful auto-loading pistols made, was confiscated during the arrest of Alfredo "El Mochomo" Beltran Leyva, a narco captain who oversaw drug transportation, money laundering, bribery and paramilitary units for a major cartel, according to Mexican police records.


Ahhh... the expected ignorance of the media.

I guess since it says "Super" it MUST be a powerful round!
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,987
Re: Valley gun seller on trial for alleged ties to drug cartels
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2009, 03:41:10 PM »
Quote
A Colt .38 Super, one of the most powerful auto-loading pistols made,

Snicker.

Yep.  Dirty Harry ran around with two of 'em. ;/  The Deagle, AMT Automag, Coonan/Grizzly 1911s, 10mm's, and even the piddly .45 automatic colt pistol can't compare with the vaunted copkillingslayingpowerdoom of the .38 Super.
 :O
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Grandpa Shooter

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,079
Re: Valley gun seller on trial for alleged ties to drug cartels
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2009, 03:46:39 PM »
Is it possible to have a discussion of the news event without making fun of the mistakes made in describing the firearms involved?  Poking fun at the mistakes made in reporting the story does not lessen the impact of the event which took place, it simply indicates that some gun owners do not take such events with any seriousness.  I believe we need to do a lot better job of presenting ourselves seriously if we want to be taken seriously by the antis

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Valley gun seller on trial for alleged ties to drug cartels
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2009, 03:50:42 PM »
I'm not sure how you want us to respond GS. It was a crime, and I don't think anyone here is being sympathetic or forgiving to the seller.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,695
Re: Valley gun seller on trial for alleged ties to drug cartels
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2009, 04:48:50 PM »
Unless they set up a sting, or he was selling a dozen guns a week to the same person, it's going to be hard to prove he knew he was completing straw sales, especially if he did NICS checks, reported same-time multiple handgun sales to the BATmen, maintained correct 4473s, etc.
Quote
Mexican prosecutors sat in on suspect interviews and provided investigative materials for the case.
I don't have a great deal of faith in information coming from Mexican authorities. Hopefully they have actual, US-derived evidence to support the smorgasbord of other charges, especially those they're using in their attempt to seize his assets before trial.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

Grandpa Shooter

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,079
Re: Valley gun seller on trial for alleged ties to drug cartels
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2009, 05:01:46 PM »
I'm not sure how you want us to respond GS. It was a crime, and I don't think anyone here is being sympathetic or forgiving to the seller.

It annoys me that so many gun owners take lightly the incidents involving mis use of guns, or stories such as these, and deride the press for the mistakes made in reporting the event.  For me, my constitutional rights are of such major importance, that taking any of them lightly even in the slightest, is giving the people who want to abridge our rights the advantage.  There are precious few of our rights as US citizens which have not been eroded since my youth.  I just hate to give any of the antis anymore fuel for their fire.

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,860
Re: Valley gun seller on trial for alleged ties to drug cartels
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2009, 05:23:37 PM »
The article I saw said that some of the straw purchases plead guilty and got reduced sentences in return for cooperating.  It also said that Mexican authorities captured the guns from cartels and I presume the ATF traced them back to this dealer and maybe others.  I don't think new laws are needed to do that. 

“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Gewehr98

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 11,010
  • Yee-haa!
    • Neural Misfires (Blog)
Re: Valley gun seller on trial for alleged ties to drug cartels
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2009, 05:29:42 PM »
I saw an awful lot of .38 Soopers ripping through the stages when I was an IPSC competitor and match director.  Loaded to Major Power Factor, no less.

YMMV, of course.

Hehehe, he said "Deagle". 

Me, I own a Desert Eagle.  Again, YMMV, depending on how much Counterstrike you play...
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

http://neuralmisfires.blogspot.com

"Never squat with your spurs on!"

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,341
Re: Valley gun seller on trial for alleged ties to drug cartels
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2009, 09:44:17 PM »
You do not take humbrage, you take umbrage.  (gosh darn it!) :lol:
I took a humbrage once.

I had to return it, though. It didn't fit, and the color was all wrong under sunlight.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: Valley gun seller on trial for alleged ties to drug cartels
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2009, 10:00:43 PM »
Unless they set up a sting, or he was selling a dozen guns a week to the same person, it's going to be hard to prove he knew he was completing straw sales, especially if he did NICS checks, reported same-time multiple handgun sales to the BATmen, maintained correct 4473s, etc.


were it not for his codefendant pleading guilty and testifying
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Myself

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 240
Re: Valley gun seller on trial for alleged ties to drug cartels
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2009, 11:22:26 PM »
The possibility also exists that the men who were running the guns were doing so without the owners knowledge.  Plea bargain, hang someone else so you can get off.  I don't know.  I suspect the guy was dirty and he will be found guilty but I will not hang him before the trial.

If it is determined he is guilty then they should throw the book at him.  Many laws exist that make straw purchases, etc. illegal.  I am concerned that people are getting tried by politicians and reporters for an agenda.  I don't think we should help.

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,695
Re: Valley gun seller on trial for alleged ties to drug cartels
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2009, 08:50:50 AM »
were it not for his codefendant pleading guilty and testifying
Testimony of someone (presumably) caught red-handed that was purchased by the offer of a lighter sentence if they'd testify against someone against whom actual evidence may be tenuous . . .

The story is long on allegations, short on a description of what the actual evidence is.

I expect all that will come out at trial, and if they have actual evidence that he was knowingly selling to narco gangs, it's off to the Graybar Hotel for him . . . and I'm just fine with that.

But the attempt at civil forefeiture - seizing all his assets - prior to any criminal conviction is disturbing.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: Valley gun seller on trial for alleged ties to drug cartels
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2009, 08:58:15 AM »
the straw buyers fooled him.... 700 times    not a great defense
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

AJ Dual

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,162
  • Shoe Ballistics Inc.
Re: Valley gun seller on trial for alleged ties to drug cartels
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2009, 10:44:59 AM »
It annoys me that so many gun owners take lightly the incidents involving mis use of guns, or stories such as these, and deride the press for the mistakes made in reporting the event.  For me, my constitutional rights are of such major importance, that taking any of them lightly even in the slightest, is giving the people who want to abridge our rights the advantage.  There are precious few of our rights as US citizens which have not been eroded since my youth.  I just hate to give any of the antis anymore fuel for their fire.

When people poke fun at the media for firearm/caliber mistakes, it's pointing out a much larger issue.

Whenever one finds fault with the MSM on a particular issue where YOU are knowledgeable and competent, (in our case firearm lore) and the press is wrong, it begs a much larger question: How much else are they wrong about? One comes to the frightening conclusion it may well be damn near well everything. I've seen equally egregious errors or misrepresntations on other areas in which I have expertiese, such as computer technology, the field in which I make my living as a professional.

And this error-laden tripe is much, if not all, of the information the voting public and our politicians are basing elections and policy decisions on.  Those are policy decisions which are eroding our rights. Many of us feel that the media's bias and outright incorrect information, whether due to ignorance or laziness, is the first step in that erosion process.

Instead of focusing on relevant facts, such as digging through the criminal complaint or any public testimony indicating falsified 4473 forms, that hundreds of gun sales went to the same individual and weren't reported as multi-purchases to the ATF, or FFL bound-book irregularities, we get a bunch of fluff and hand-wringing over the violence in Mexico, implying as if it's only possible with American guns, and a throw-away reference to the .38 super and it's incorrect attribution as being "unusually powerful".
I promise not to duck.

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,987
Re: Valley gun seller on trial for alleged ties to drug cartels
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2009, 11:06:06 AM »
the straw buyers fooled him.... 700 times    not a great defense

You know, if I coached a green gun buyer to walk up to a store and ask for 2-3 particular handgun models after I had scouted it to make sure they carried some of them... a dealer would have a hard time detecting whether it was just a gun newbie versus a straw buyer.

Seriously:  If there's a Glock 19 in the case, and a buyer walks up and says "I'd really like to get a Glock 19... my friend has one that I shot the other day and I really liked it", are you going to suspect a straw purchase?  "Oh, you don't have any Glock 19's?  Okay, how about a Ruger P89, or a Springfield XD9?  You have one?  Great.  I'll take it."

Nothing there indicates a straw buyer.

Iknadosian's best defense and worst liability is the part of town where he decided to hang his shingle.  I'd suspect the citizenry percentage in that area to be less than 50% by a good margin.  (Well, it depends on what you count anchor babies as...)
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Valley gun seller on trial for alleged ties to drug cartels
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2009, 11:08:51 AM »
If you refuse to sell to someone because you don't like the way they look absent any clear evidence of a straw purchase you're discriminating and can get sued. It's a bad choice.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

bk425

  • New Member
  • Posts: 51
    • Now's the time
Re: Valley gun seller on trial for alleged ties to drug cartels
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2009, 11:10:27 AM »
the straw buyers fooled him.... 700 times    not a great defense
? If I were on the Jury, the number of straw -buyers- would mean little to me. The question with straw purchases is intent and knowledge. If you have a larger dealership in a town near the border and lots of folks (hispanic or no) buy from you will -you- ask every one of them if they are purchasing for their own possession (a question I've never heard)? Do you think the evildoers will cough and confess their bad intent? Not likely.

IANAL but dealers are between a rock and a SWAT team on this kinda thing imho. They are not -actually- guilty of a crime though (other then pumping up newspaper sales in this case ;)) unless they knowingly sell to a straw purchaser. The onus is quite rightly on the person buying who has the intent to pass off the weapon to someone unable to legally possess. If this dealer (that's -if-) did the paperwork dotting his "i"s and crossing his "t"s in the intricate maze that current law and batfe put them through, then at the end of this he ought to be set free and compensated for the legal attack. And we all oughta mail order some supplies. If not, then sure, greybar hotel for him. But where the guns end up, or how many end up there aren't his fault unless -he- was running them or -knowingly- selling to runners.-bk425

jackdanson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 702
Re: Valley gun seller on trial for alleged ties to drug cartels
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2009, 11:30:02 AM »
Quote
A Colt .38 Super, one of the most powerful auto-loading pistols made,

Wow, epic idiocy.  I understand not everyone knows about guns, but can't he even check wikipedia?  Kind of draws into question all of his "facts".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Super

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,695
Re: Valley gun seller on trial for alleged ties to drug cartels
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2009, 01:19:21 PM »
. . . If you have a larger dealership in a town near the border and lots of folks (hispanic or no) buy from you will -you- ask every one of them if they are purchasing for their own possession (a question I've never heard)?
Isn't there already a question on the 4473 that asks just that, and isn't it a crime to lie? Why would a dealer assume a guy who's willing to do all the paperwork - including identifying himself and signing his name - and who passes a NICS check is committing a crime?

I will say, if the dealer was selling 10 guns a week to the same guy, that's suspicious. And if the Feds did a "sting" or otherwise have the guy on tape admitting he knew a sale was illegal, he's toast.

But absent the above, if he did all the other stuff - NICS check, 4473s, etc., correctly, getting a conviction will be an uphill battle.

When people poke fun at the media for firearm/caliber mistakes, it's pointing out a much larger issue.

Whenever one finds fault with the MSM on a particular issue where YOU are knowledgeable and competent, (in our case firearm lore) and the press is wrong, it begs a much larger question: How much else are they wrong about? One comes to the frightening conclusion it may well be damn near well everything.
Absolutely - I've made exactly this point on other forums. In the few cases in which I have personal knowledge of a story . . . the media DID, in fact, get things wrong. So I really don't trust them, and haven't for a long time. A few decades ago, I put this down to incompetence or laziness . . . but with much of the media being overtly agenda-driven, today the situation is even worse.  =(
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Valley gun seller on trial for alleged ties to drug cartels
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2009, 01:46:36 PM »
I have never seen a media story about a subject I know well that wasn't horribly inaccurate.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.