Obama Senior Bonus

[Chester32141]

It's not as if they were given a choice with respect to the payroll deductions...  

Not to mention that every type of disability and health insurance option is coordinated w/ Social Security making it harder to plan for the unexpected ... but you can't tell kids anything ... they whined when their momma shut them off as babies and they continue to whine even after they start to wear big boy pants ...  

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Oh well ... I guess that's just too bad for you isn't it ... tell you what ... next time I take my massive disability check to the bank I'll say "Thanks Headless Thompson Gunner and Dogmush for your pissant contribution " ...

Enjoy it while you can.  While you're at the bank we'll be working to cut you off.

And the money you took from us kids just might be the money we would have spent on a decent retirement home and good health care for you.  Ah, well...

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I don't buy that for one minute.

It does speak of a double standard, HTG.  More than just the current generation have paid into SS, with no other retirement investment choice offered for those appropriated funds, so they're definitely entitled to recoup that which was forcibly taken from them over time.  Telling them they spent it already and don't deserve another dime doesn't really point at the root cause of the problem, which was poor fiscal management by the people taking said moneys.

  

You can't dance around the fact that the money everyone paid in to SS isn't there anymore.  It just isn't there.  Gone.  Poof.  Nada.  You can speak about why the money isn't there, or where it went, or who made it go there, who wasted it and how and whose fault it is.  That's all well and good.  

In the end, is the simple fact that the money isn't there now.  Any money paid out of SS will be taken straight out of one person's pocket and placed into someone else's.  It elevates one person by diminishing another, and that ain't right.

That would be akin to me saying you should only get a few years' worth of SS, because that's all you deserve, and you should've salted away even more money on the side, shame on you for not wisely investing in anticipation of the demise of SS.  SS is not a paltry deduction from one's paycheck, particularly over one's working lifetime, so I don't begrudge anybody discussing their entitlement to SS benefits.  SS wasn't always insolvent, only relatively recently has its lack of long-term viability become visible to the average American. Not everybody's in a good position to build up a healthy 401K on the side, either.  That's sad, but that's life.  I dipped into my military pension quite heavily when I got laid off last February, and that was a real eye-opener for me.  As I said before, I don't anticipate having a dime of SS sent my way at age 67, and there are days when I wonder if Uncle Sam will default on military pension payments, too.  It doesn't mean I am hostile to my elders who are receiving SS benefits, because it was faulty by design when it comes to passing debt on to future generations. It's not as if they were given a choice with respect to the payroll deductions...

This is precisely the point.  I don't deserve any social security.  Neither do you.  Neither does chester.  Nobody does.  This ponzy scheme of ours is a national disgrace, and I can't fathom why so many people seem to like it so much.

Retirement is expensive.  No doubt about that.  It's expensive for you, it's expensive for me, for everyone.  I'm not sure how the fact that was hard for you justifies your making it even harder still for others.  And I'm not sure how the fact that someone stole from your paycheck makes it any less wrong for you to steal from other peoples' paychecks.  

Two wrongs don't make a right.

I hear you when you say that the amount of money taken from your paycheck wasn't a paltry amount.  But consider that the amount of money your generation has wasted on government programs is no paltry amount either.  The piper must be paid.

It's an ugly situation all around, with no pleasant way out.  I think we can all agree on that.  The question is, do we continue the ugliness, perhaps because that's the way it used to be?  Or do we find a way to end it?

And if you get to claim the high ground for not being hostile to your elders, then I get to claim the high ground for not being hostile to my juniors.  I do not want to be responsible for putting my children into the same mess my elders have put me in.    

Social Security is a shame all around.

[Monkeyleg]

Yes, it's a shame. The fact remains, though, that the feds have taken $140,000 from me. I can't forgive a debt that large, as that money is needed for my last years. Note I didn't say retirement, as I won't be able to retire; the funds aren't there. They could have been there if I'd just declared bankruptcy back in 2000 instead of decimating my retirement funds, but bankruptcy would have stiffed others--including investors in companies I owed money to.

If the feds want to give me the $140,000 now, I'll take it and shut up. Otherwise I'll simply require that I receive the money as promised each month.

In the end, all this bickering doesn't matter. When the 11th hour comes, the politicians will finally deal with it, and we'll all be screwed. Only the most destitute of the elderly will receive any payments. Those still working will have their taxes raised. Those who are retired will be means-tested to determine eligibility and will pay taxes on their retirement savings. The age of eligibility will be raised.

It will be an equal opportunity screwing.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Yes, it's a shame. The fact remains, though, that the feds have taken $140,000 from me. I can't forgive a debt that large, as that money is needed for my last years. Note I didn't say retirement, as I won't be able to retire; the funds aren't there. They could have been there if I'd just declared bankruptcy back in 2000 instead of decimating my retirement funds, but bankruptcy would have stiffed others--including investors in companies I owed money to.

If the feds want to give me the $140,000 now, I'll take it and shut up. Otherwise I'll simply require that I receive the money as promised each month.

Sucks, dunnit?

Would you wish the same situation on another?  Or 3 to 5 others, as I believe the statistics indicate?

I'm not trying to be difficult here.  It's just that this is a terribly important point that needs to be recognized and heeded by our nation, and soon.  Or I fear things will get quite ugly.

[Chester32141]

Sucks, dunnit?

Would you wish the same situation on another?  Or 3 to 5 others, as I believe the statistics indicate?

I'm not trying to be difficult here.  It's just that this is a terribly important point that needs to be recognized and heeded by our nation, and soon.  Or I fear things will get quite ugly.

Unless you kids were born from Testubes and the Testubes you were born from were born from other Testubes then the reality is that we paid for your grandparents and possibly your parents Social Security retirements ... but I guess that was OK since it didn't have to come from you ... man up and quit whining ... is that asking for too much ... whoever told you that life was fair lied to you and if you haven't learned that by now you've haven't been out in the world for very long ...  

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Unless you kids were born from Testubes and the Testubes you were born from were born from other Testubes then the reality is that we paid for your grandparents and possibly your parents Social Security retirements ... but I guess that was OK since it didn't have to come from you ... man up and quit whining ... is that asking for too much ... whoever told you that life was fair lied to you and if you haven't learned that by now you've haven't been out in the world for very long ...  

Yeah, life isn't fair.  That cuts both ways.  Next time you say you're entitled to all of our money, that you deserve it, we'll tell you "life isn't fair, so you can't have it".



Or maybe that's not quite right.  Maybe the accurate way would be to say "life is fair, so you can't have it."  

Hmm...

By the way, my grandparents didn't take social security.  And their parents didn't have the option.

[41magsnub]

So Chester, you are mad because the younger generation who is most likely going to get shafted by inevitable benefit cuts (high crazy tax increases to fund the upcoming payouts as the baby boomers go into retirement, or a combination of the two), does not want to participate in SS anymore?  The buck has to stop somewhere, why not now?  If not now, when?  After you get yours?  It is all hypothetical of course since no elected representative is going to want to hang their name on real SS reform.

[Chester32141]

So Chester, you are mad because the younger generation who is most likely going to get shafted by inevitable benefit cuts (high crazy tax increases to fund the upcoming payouts as the baby boomers go into retirement, or a combination of the two), does not want to participate in SS anymore?  The buck has to stop somewhere, why not now?  If not now, when?  It is all hypothetical of course since no elected representative is going to want to hang their name on real SS reform.

Heck no I'm not mad ... I'm thankful that because of my poor health I'm able to recoup my 'investment' ... it's the whiners who think that the recipients of Social Security are to blame for the mess that it's in ... heck all we 'oldsters' did was work hard and pay taxes, including Social Security ... now they feel that it's a crime cause they have to pay in too ... The blame lies in the policticians that have raided Social Security over the years but some people are too stupid to realize that they are being gamed into participating in generational warfare ... If not for my poor health I'd be one of the unlucky bastards that would probably never see any of the $$ I paid in returned to me ... Wanna bet how many of the whiners voted for change they can believe in ...  :rolleyes:

[Perd Hapley]

I'm thirty-three and I agree with HTG.  But we're NOT engaging in generational warfare.  The previous generations have "made war" on all of us, by creating and perpetuating Social Security.  We young folk were not there to have a say.  To point out past misdeeds is not generational warfare; it's just trying to get to the root of the problem so we can recognize that the program was wrong from the very beginning. 

[Marnoot]

I'm thirty-three and I agree with HTG.  But we're NOT engaging in generational warfare.  The previous generations have "made war" on all of us, by creating and perpetuating Social Security.  We young folk were not there to have a say.  To point out past misdeeds is not generational warfare; it's just trying to get to the root of the problem so we can recognize that the program was wrong from the very beginning.  

While I don't really disagree with anything said (I'm all for doing away with social security, or at the very least the forced aspect of it), I am curious if you, HTG, 41magsnub, etc., plan on refusing your social security (with the big assumption SS hasn't all collapsed by then) payments during retirement? Or perhaps donating the entirety to charity?

[Monkeyleg]

Continuing to fund Social Security can't be accomplished simply by raising taxes on those who are working. It would require FICA and CO-FICA taxes in the 25% range which, added to the 15-35% federal income tax and average 5% state income tax, would be unbearable for young workers. A tax increase is probable, but not that large.

Those who've done a good job saving for retirement shouldn't expect to receive anything from Social Security. If anything, their 401(k)'s, IRA's and other savings will be taxed on distribution.

The most politically expedient measure will be to remove the FICA ceiling entirely, so Bill Gates and Oprah can pay 12.5% of their income in exchange for $2000 a month when they hit age 67.

The politicians can't tick off the Baby Boomers, as seniors always vote, and there's going to be more seniors than ever. Still, the politicians can't lay it all on the backs of younger people.

Every two years thousands of politicians accused their campaign opponents of wanting to take Social Security away from seniors. The result was that the same lying bunch was elected, and the problem was never solved.

In the end, though, it doesn't matter. The money for Social Security isn't there. The money for Medicare isn't there. The money for our current budgets isn't there. Nor is the money for nationalized healthcare, the bailout of every favored industry, or any of the other grandiose plans. The US is broke. The Chinese, the Japanese, the Saudi's, and everyone else in the world knows it. The only people who don't are the American voters.

[41magsnub]

While I don't really disagree with anything said (I'm all for doing away with social security, or at the very least the forced aspect of it), I am curious if you, HTG, 41magsnub, etc., plan on refusing your social security (with the big assumption SS hasn't all collapsed by then) payments during retirement? Or perhaps donating the entirety to charity?

Is I don't know a good answer?  For all I know I will be dependent on SS because my various retirement accounts will be so heavily taxed to pay for everything else I have to be on the government dole because the government drains my income for other folks that are on the dole.  Or more likely I won't get SS at all and I will pay out in taxes to the point that my meager fixed income post taxes from my savings is about on par with what the folks who did not plan or had bad luck get.

[Perd Hapley]

While I don't really disagree with anything said (I'm all for doing away with social security, or at the very least the forced aspect of it), I am curious if you, HTG, 41magsnub, etc., plan on refusing your social security (with the big assumption SS hasn't all collapsed by then) payments during retirement? Or perhaps donating the entirety to charity?

Is refusing SS benefits an option?  I didn't say anybody should refuse SS money or give it away, and giving SS to charity isn't exactly returning the cash to its rightful owners anyway. 

I have so far refused to consider any federal aid for schooling, apart from the GI Bill cash that I earned.  So maybe I will refuse SS, too.  I'm hoping such benefits will have been entirely eliminated by then, anyway.  I don't want the money back.  It's tainted now. 

[Marnoot]

I believe one can refuse SS benefits, yes. I don't think either side's arguments in this thread are invalid. I understand refusing SS, I also understand accepting it while not agreeing with its existence. It really just depends on how you view the taking of it from you vs the taking of it from others vs. being (slightly) reimbursed what was taken from you. If I had college to do over again, I'm not 100% sure I'd apply for a federal grant again, but I might. I saw it as an investment in increasing tax revenue from me, which has definitely happened.

[Nick1911]

Everyone should expect themselves and others to make the choice that is most economic advantageous to them out of the available options.  This is the basic foundation of capitalism, and I'm entirely unsurprised when I see it happen.

As such, I'm not surprised or angry at persons who cash a social security check from the government - even those that didn't pay anything into it. 

I'm angry at the system, and the people who set up something so utterly financially unsustainable.  The only reason it's not criminal is because it's being run by the government.  How do you fix this system?  I have no idea.  Someone (likely everyone) will end up getting screwed at some point.  There isn't an easy fix, which is why we still have the problem.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

In the end, though, it doesn't matter. The money for Social Security isn't there. The money for Medicare isn't there. The money for our current budgets isn't there. Nor is the money for nationalized healthcare, the bailout of every favored industry, or any of the other grandiose plans. The US is broke. The Chinese, the Japanese, the Saudi's, and everyone else in the world knows it. The only people who don't are the American voters.

This is the important factor.  The oldsters can whine all they want about getting their so-called "investment" back from social security.  But the fact is, the money just isn't there.  Our country must accept this reality and work within it.  If we persist in behaving like we're all rich and we can all have whatever we want, even though we're flat broke, it's going to ruin the country.  

Social security payments depend on a functioning economic system.  Yet any attempts to pay out this much money to social security recipients will destroy the economic system.  The more we try to pay to retirees, the less we'll be able to pay them.  It's an inherently self-limiting system.  And we're already at the limits right now.

In a macroeconomic sense, the only possible ways to save for the future are to either stockpile resources, or to invest current resources in things that will improve your ability to produce new resources in the future.  Social security does neither.  Social security wasted huge amounts of resources in the past, in the misbegotten belief that that would make it possible to waste even more resources in the future.

This is the system you oldsters have built for yourselves.  This is the system you're going to depend upon going forward.  Good luck to you.  I'm afraid you're going to need it.  

I'm simply worried that you guys are going to destroy things for everyone (yourselves included, assuming you live long enough to see the consequences).  

I'm also miffed at the unbridled immorality you guys seem to favor, the notion that it's ok for you to steal because you were also stolen from, or because you feel your need justifies your theft.  But that's a separate matter.  As Nick points out, people will tend to do what's in their best interest.  That's why we're supposed to have laws against theft, to make stealing not-in-you-best-interest.  But anyway...

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Is refusing SS benefits an option?  I didn't say anybody should refuse SS money or give it away, and giving SS to charity isn't exactly returning the cash to its rightful owners anyway.  

I have so far refused to consider any federal aid for schooling, apart from the GI Bill cash that I earned.  So maybe I will refuse SS, too.  I'm hoping such benefits will have been entirely eliminated by then, anyway.  I don't want the money back.  It's tainted now.  

Tainted indeed.  My grandparents refused SS payments, and "tainted" was exactly the way they described it.  That, and they had pride, they refused to depend on Washington or their neighbors for their subsistence.

God love 'em.

[dogmush]

While I tend to not be angry at any individual SS recipient, I do find myself angry at "Seniors".  That ill-defined, yet powerful voting bloc that seems to have congress living in perpetual fear.  Especially here in FL the group represented by AARP and the like have politics locked down, and for their own advantage.  One of the reasons SS can't be reformed is there's perpetually a large well represented group proclaiming "Yes, fix it, after I get my money".  This group just keeps replenishing itself like The Flood

We seem to have two choices here:

Keep going, milk everyone you can and hope you squeak by before it crashes,

or

Stop now, take your losses and move on.

Obviously I prefer number two, partly because it's the right thing to do, and partly because it's still relatively early in my personal soaking. (Nick’s observation on personal economics is correct)

I can't claim to know Monkeyleg's finances but the fact remains that he CAN forgive that debt, if forced.  If the fed.gov said tomorrow that SS is insolvent, and there were going to be no more payments, he'd have to.  What other choice does he have?

And eventually, someone is going to get hit with that notice.  There's no more money, you lost it all, sorry.  I fully understand why nobody wants to be the hot potato, but come on, we gotta stop it somewhere.

I think the best thing that could happen for everyone is a date. Give folks 10 years. If you're over 67 and drawing SS Oct16 2019, we'll finish it.  If you're 66, you're screwed put you have 10 years to come up with plan B.  And we'll draw down the payroll deductions as the recipients die off.  Yeah it's harsh.  and yeah some folks are going to lose a lot of money, but as Chester so rightly put it "Life Ain't Fair."  So much for my political fantasy.

What's actually going to happen is we'll keep going until the economic collapse gets to the point that the payouts can't be supported, and one day a bunch of people will wake up and discover there's no more "free" money.  It'll be fun to be a SS office clerk that day.

ETA: FWIW none of my grandparents drew SS either.

[Monkeyleg]

I'm also miffed at the unbridled immorality you guys seem to favor, the notion that it's ok for you to steal because you were also stolen from, or because you feel your need justifies your theft.

Interesting way of putting it.

I tend to be very tenacious when it comes to people owing me money. A small ad agency in another state owed me $300 recently. They were on the ropes and couldn't pay. I put in much more time than was really justified to file in small claims court. I got the money.

Believe me, I've tried to not "contribute" money to the SS fund, but the IRS is really funny about that.

Perhaps we should all demand whatever money we can get from the fund right now and settle for that. Supposedly there's $2.4 trillion left. That's about $8000 for every man, woman and child to buy a decent used car.

[dogmush]

Perhaps we should all demand whatever money we can get from the fund right now and settle for that. Supposedly there's $2.4 trillion left. That's about $8000 for every man, woman and child to buy a decent used car.

Cool, I'm in.  Knock off the kids that haven't payed in and we might get up to 10,000 or so.

[FTA84]

I don't understand this blame game.

The fed.gov took money from all generations, basically as a type of government bond, you pay in money now and they will give it back to you in XXX years.  Of course, one of the many reasons it is not considered a bond is because it is forced upon us to keep purchasing these bonds to pay out the bonds that have matured (aka a Ponzi scheme). 

Like it or not, seniors are still bond holders in the investment group of SS.   Saying their money is gone and they have to deal with it is akin to the US telling China all the money they've invested in US securities is gone and they have to deal with it.  Oh wait, that is called going into default.

So either way, all we are debating here is what to do about intergenerational debt.  There is only one way to stop gaining debt and pay back our debtors; same as with a household, live BELOW your means until you pay it off then live WITHIN your means.  No one wants to pay it back because they feel as if they haven't been the beneficiaries of said debt.

[oldfart]

Social Security used to be known as Social Security Insurance.  Individuals would pay a premium, the size of which would be determined by their age and income and be insured against dying in poverty.  Of course, with the government running it it soon degenerated into what we now have and are looking forward to.

How many of you buy vehicular liability insurance?  If you bought a new car and paid for liability insurance when you took possession and then drove into the side of another car you'd let the insurance company cover your butt, wouldn't you.  In such a case you'd congratulate yourself on making such an astute business decision.  If, on the other hand, you drove for years, never having an accident or claim against your insurance policy, you'd look at all those receipts and wish you had the money back.

That's kinda the shape SS is in.  When it started people lived to be about 64-65 yerars old.  Heck, when I was a kid I didn't even know anybody who was 75 years old and now I'm there and reasonably healthy!  But the plan was to pay those "old" folks a stipend so they could live comfortably in their declining years.  But then two things happened:  People began living longer, drawing their insurance benefits longer and a country that had been on the economic ropes when the SS Act was passed became an economic powerhouse where people could invest their money and provide for their own retirement.  Lots of people wanted to but there was that pesky law on the books to keep them from doing it the way they wanted.  Besides that, there were bunches of politicians who loved to "borrow" from the SS fund for their own personal "bridges to nowhere." 

Now we're looking forward to the system going broke.  That's good and it's bad too.  The sooner it goes broke the sooner we're done with the damned thing and that's good.  But a lot of people are going to get hurt when it does and that's bad.  If it goes broke quickly it will kinda "moosh in" with all the other big government schemes that are doomed to failure within the next generation.  So while all those old folks are starving to death you younger ones are going to be shooting each other to death.  That's what happens in revolutions and civil wars.  Plan on it.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Social security is not now, and never has been, anything remotely resembling insurance.  Neither has it been any sort of investment, or bond, or whatever.

They can call it whatever they want, but that does not make it true.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Interesting way of putting it.

I tend to be very tenacious when it comes to people owing me money. A small ad agency in another state owed me $300 recently. They were on the ropes and couldn't pay. I put in much more time than was really justified to file in small claims court. I got the money.

Believe me, I've tried to not "contribute" money to the SS fund, but the IRS is really funny about that.

Perhaps we should all demand whatever money we can get from the fund right now and settle for that. Supposedly there's $2.4 trillion left. That's about $8000 for every man, woman and child to buy a decent used car.

I'd love to cash it all out and end it now.  I'd even be willing to withdraw from the process right now without getting anything in return.  They can keep the thousands and thousands I've already paid in if they just let me the heck out of it.