Author Topic: Obama Senior Bonus  (Read 18711 times)

Nick1911

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Re: Obama Senior Bonus
« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2009, 05:52:34 PM »
I'd love to cash it all out and end it now.  I'd even be willing to withdraw from the process right now without getting anything in return.  They can keep the thousands and thousands I've already paid in if they just let me the heck out of it.

Amen to that!

Course, it would screw over people who did pay into it for their whole lives...   =| As others have said... the buck has to stop somewhere.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Obama Senior Bonus
« Reply #51 on: October 16, 2009, 05:56:25 PM »
Amen to that!

Course, it would screw over people who did pay into it for their whole lives...   =| As others have said... the buck has to stop somewhere.
But but but...  All those people who paid in for their whole lives are just getting back their own money.  That's what I'm told, anyway.  They're just drawing on their savings, or their bonds, or their insurance, or whatever.

They shouldn't need people like me paying my money into the system, if all they're doing is taking back out that which is theirs.

Monkeyleg

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Re: Obama Senior Bonus
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2009, 06:08:04 PM »
Yes, it would screw over those of us who've been paying for 40+ years.

As I've said, I've paid somewhere in the vicinity of $140,000 via FICA and co-FICA into the system.

I've also paid nearly $20,000 into the state unemployment insurance fund even though, as the owner of the business, I can never collect a dime from unemployment insurance. I do have the pleasure, though, of watching my laid-off neighbors relax all summer collecting on the fund I've been paying into.

The SS situation wouldn't be as much of a hot button with me had I not had business problems in 2000. I'd been socking away $1500 or so a month for retirement for years, on top of the 15% that FICA and co-FICA were hitting me for.

When business went bad, I had to cash in my retirement savings to pay off creditors. As I said, I could have declared bankruptcy, stiffed companies whose stock might be owned by some people here, and kept my retirement funds. I thought I was doing the right thing.

Maybe I wasn't. I could have kept my retirement funds and now be able to pass judgement on those who are planning on collecting SS.

The only winners in all this are the members of congress who refused to address the problems. One of them is former Congressman Jerry Kleczka of Milwaukee. He's my age, and was elected to congress in 1984. He fought tooth and nail against any changes to Social Security, and frightened the seniors if any opponent brought up the issue.

Well, Jerry retired back in 2004, just as I knew he would (he was just marking time for exactly 20 years). He'll live on a full congressional pension for the rest of his life, which is now $150,000+ annually.

I hope I outlive that MF so I can piss on his grave.


Monkeyleg

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Re: Obama Senior Bonus
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2009, 06:20:06 PM »
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But but but...  All those people who paid in for their whole lives are just getting back their own money.  That's what I'm told, anyway.  They're just drawing on their savings, or their bonds, or their insurance, or whatever.

Y'know, HTG, maybe you're right. While it's true I've paid about $140K into the system over the years, maybe it's unfair of me to ask for that money.

I've read a lot of posts here and on THR from people who've bought nice homes, cars, and lots of guns. I know they've put a lot of money into that stuff, but shouldn't they be willing to give some of it up for the good of society? Wouldn't that be fair? Why couldn't they "contribute" some of their nice stuff to the SS system? After all, it's just their money.

Tallpine

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Re: Obama Senior Bonus
« Reply #54 on: October 16, 2009, 07:02:45 PM »
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Now we're looking forward to the system going broke.

It ain't just Social inSecurity that's going broke ....  :O
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Obama Senior Bonus
« Reply #55 on: October 16, 2009, 09:03:01 PM »
Y'know, HTG, maybe you're right. While it's true I've paid about $140K into the system over the years, maybe it's unfair of me to ask for that money.

I've read a lot of posts here and on THR from people who've bought nice homes, cars, and lots of guns. I know they've put a lot of money into that stuff, but shouldn't they be willing to give some of it up for the good of society? Wouldn't that be fair? Why couldn't they "contribute" some of their nice stuff to the SS system? After all, it's just their money.
I'd have no problem with it if it was your $140k that you were getting back.  I'd be 110% behind you getting your own money back form the government.

But since it's someone else's money that you'd receive, I can't imagine how you have any right to it.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 12:55:25 AM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

FTA84

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Re: Obama Senior Bonus
« Reply #56 on: October 16, 2009, 10:28:04 PM »
HTG you just can't seem to make the connection.

The fed.gov took their money and spent in on roads, bridges, whatever they wanted, (yes including pay outs to other seniors).  You can call it insurance, you can call it whatever you want, but no matter which way you cut it; the fed.gov indebted themselves to seniors much the way we are indebted to foreign nations.

You can play all the games you'd like and say "SS is bankrupt but the country is not".  It would be akin to running a company and saying well payroll is bankrupt, HR is defaulting on loans but the company is still going strong!  Also, either way you cut it, you can't deny the fact that the money is lost and everyone will have to pay their share -- you want seniors to pay their entire life investment but you only want to give the little you've donated so far.

Good job on being a political pawn -- just what the politicians wanted, seniors and youth voting D or R against each other instead of voting out the aholes that create these messes!

Monkeyleg

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Re: Obama Senior Bonus
« Reply #57 on: October 16, 2009, 10:45:08 PM »
How about we make the pain equal for all? Let's set a target amount, say, $200,000. Everybody pays into the system until they hit $200,000. Then they're not taxed anymore.

But they don't get any money, either. It just gets thrown into general revenues like all of the other SS dollars have been for the last 30+ years.

Sound fair?

FTA84

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Re: Obama Senior Bonus
« Reply #58 on: October 16, 2009, 10:49:28 PM »
Seems most fair to me would be just to end the system; have the payouts due land in the national debt column and deal with all our debt at once.

That way, people who've paid into the system only lose their earnings if the country goes belly up.

Monkeyleg

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Re: Obama Senior Bonus
« Reply #59 on: October 16, 2009, 11:16:02 PM »
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That way, people who've paid into the system only lose their earnings if the country goes belly up.

And how would those people collect their earnings? Or do they just get a lapel ribbon?

Perhaps some here would have different opinions if they'd paid two or three years' worth of gross income into SS.

In the end, it probably doesn't matter for me either. They've now moved the insolvency date up to 2017, the year I qualify for full "benefits."




Nick1911

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Re: Obama Senior Bonus
« Reply #60 on: October 16, 2009, 11:27:59 PM »
And how would those people collect their earnings? Or do they just get a lapel ribbon?


So, how do you propose we fix the system?

Monkeyleg

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Re: Obama Senior Bonus
« Reply #61 on: October 17, 2009, 12:05:40 AM »
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So, how do you propose we fix the system?

Before privatization became a dirty word, I thought that it would be possible to keep the payment arrangements in place for those on Social Security or close to receiving "benefits," but gradually phase in amounts workers could put into their own accounts. It would take decades, but eventually the workers would control all of their own money.

Right now it looks like that won't work. But saying "that's life" to people who've paid 12.5% of their income for decades is no less immoral than taking an extra 10-15% in taxes from the very successful to pay for programs benefitting the less successful and calling it "fair."

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Obama Senior Bonus
« Reply #62 on: October 17, 2009, 12:36:47 AM »
HTG you just can't seem to make the connection.

The fed.gov took their money and spent in on roads, bridges, whatever they wanted, (yes including pay outs to other seniors).  You can call it insurance, you can call it whatever you want, but no matter which way you cut it; the fed.gov indebted themselves to seniors much the way we are indebted to foreign nations.
That's brilliant!  You set aside money for your own retirement.  Then you decided you'd rather spend that money early, so you borrowed it from yourselves and spent it on shiny government baubles and a reduced tax burden for yourselves.  Now that it's time for the loan to be paid back, you guys split the scene.  That's OK, though, those younger workers will pay it back for you, no problem.

Sorry, but this younger worker doesn't want to play that game.  You'll have to force me to, if you can.  I'll do whatever I can to resist, and failing that, I'll do my darndest to drag something resembling a conscience out of you while you're fleecing me.

The government is bankrupt.  The government has no money!  The only thing the FedGov has at this point is the power to tax the American economy in the future.  But the amount of taxation necessary to support the expected SS payments would be so large that it would destroy any future economic activity.  Our only options at this point are to cut benefits or inflate so heavily that the benefits have no value.

Either way, that much wealth cannot and will not be paid out to SS retirees.  It's just not possible.  The younger workers couldn't possibly pay out that much wealth even if they wanted to, which they definitely don't.  

Think about it.  If most of you boomers couldn't come up with enough wealth in your lifetimes to provide a comfortable 20  or 30 year retirement, what on earth makes you think we'll be able to save that much up for you?  

You can claim you're owed something.  You can get all your fellow retirees to agree that you're all owed something.  You can vote in politicians who promise to give you what you think you're owed.  But politicians cannot make that wealth exist in the first place to be given.  All they can do is promise.

All you have at this point are empty promises.  You can try to blame me for this, claim I'm obligated to pay back your debt, claim you deserve an easy retirement on the back of my labors.  Well, I'm not going to cooperate.  I'm sure you understand why.

Instead, if you want to try to work with me on a solution, then I'll hear you out.  

Gowen

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Re: Obama Senior Bonus
« Reply #63 on: October 17, 2009, 12:41:24 AM »
How to fix the system?  Let everyone my age, 42 and younger off the hook.  The feds can keep everything we've paid in and we are no longer taxed for ssi, nor can we collect.  Never happen, but it's my pipe dream and I'm gonna keep it.

Second, I am a wash with the system.  I make less than 38k, single income family.  Taking the standard deduction, interest on the house is almost non existent, etc.  Plus earned income and child tax credit, I pay nothing in taxes and get a refund for about what I payed into SSI.  I don't take any more than what's mine and I don't see socialist insecurity making it to when I retire.  I've provided for my own retirement, 401K, IRAs.  Obama isn't getting any money off me.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Obama Senior Bonus
« Reply #64 on: October 17, 2009, 12:50:56 AM »
So, how do you propose we fix the system?
One possible "solution" would be to set SS back to the way it was when it was first started.  The age of retirement back then was roughly the same age as the average life expectancy.  The accounting was set up such that the burden of paying for each retiree was spread out over 30 separate workers, so that no worker had to pay for more than 1/30th of a single retirement.

Now the age of retirement is some 15 years sooner than the average life expectancy.  Now, instead of being able to spread the cost over 30 workers, 2 workers are expected to come up the money for a single retirement.  This situation is untenable.

Turn back the clocks.  Make things work today the same way they worked back then.  Set the minimum age for receiving benefits to 78, rather than 62.  Work the accounting so that no worker has to fund more than 1/30th of a single retirement.  

Retirees would howl, but this is fair.  This is what the system was designed to handle, and it's doable.  It doesn't end the system per se, so it isn't really a true solution.  But it does prevent the system from exploding the economy in the coming decades.

An actual solution would be to privatize the system.  Start investing social security payments in, you know, actual investments that could ensure new revenue streams in the future.

Another true solution would be to allow people to opt out of the system.  Sign on the dotted line and you never have to make another SS payment again.  You'd never be able to receive a dime from SS, either.  The program would wither on the vine.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 12:54:09 AM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

Monkeyleg

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Re: Obama Senior Bonus
« Reply #65 on: October 17, 2009, 01:05:01 AM »
How to fix the system?  Let everyone my age, 42 and younger off the hook.  The feds can keep everything we've paid in and we are no longer taxed for ssi, nor can we collect.  Never happen, but it's my pipe dream and I'm gonna keep it.

Second, I am a wash with the system.  I make less than 38k, single income family.  Taking the standard deduction, interest on the house is almost non existent, etc.  Plus earned income and child tax credit, I pay nothing in taxes and get a refund for about what I payed into SSI.  I don't take any more than what's mine and I don't see socialist insecurity making it to when I retire.  I've provided for my own retirement, 401K, IRAs.  Obama isn't getting any money off me.

I have an idea. Since we're setting arbitrary numbers, let's allow those 41 and younger off the hook. ;)

So, you're a wash with the system? You pay no taxes? I've been paying an arm and a leg in taxes for years, and you don't pay a thing? I don't see where you have the moral authority to complain about SS.

Nick11, if we set the program back to the way it was when it first started, we'd all be paying about $100 a year into the system. My father paid about ten cents a week when SS started, so I'd say $100 a year would be a decent ballpark estimate.

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Another true solution would be to allow people to opt out of the system.  Sign on the dotted line and you never have to make another SS payment again.  You'd never be able to receive a dime from SS, either.  The program would wither on the vine.

Wouldn't work. The current system needs young workers to pay for those collecting benefits.

If it were possible to keep people from scamming the system, another idea would be to give benefits to those who actually can no longer work. If you don't have sufficient money in your retirement account, you keep working until you can't any longer. (Which I'll be doing). At that point you receive SS benefits until you keel over a year or so later.


ronnyreagan

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Re: Obama Senior Bonus
« Reply #66 on: October 17, 2009, 10:26:48 AM »
You pay no taxes? I've been paying an arm and a leg in taxes for years, and you don't pay a thing? I don't see where you have the moral authority to complain about SS.

You keep using the fact that you've been forced to participate in an immoral system to justify forcing everyone else to continue participating in it. You can recognize that the system is a failure yet you insist on continuing in order to get your money. Nearly everyone has the "moral authority" to complain about SS considering what a mess it is, however it's a lot more consistent to complain about it and support ending it regardless of losses rather than complain about it while saying it should continue just long enough so you can get your payout.
You have to respect the president, whether you agree with him or not.
Obama, however, is not the president since a Kenyan cannot legally be the U.S. President ;/

Monkeyleg

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Re: Obama Senior Bonus
« Reply #67 on: October 17, 2009, 11:10:41 AM »
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Nearly everyone has the "moral authority" to complain about SS considering what a mess it is, however it's a lot more consistent to complain about it and support ending it regardless of losses rather than complain about it while saying it should continue just long enough so you can get your payout.

Scanr may pay SS taxes, but by not paying the other taxes most of the rest of us do to support the bureaucracy, he has as much authority to complain about SS as he does about the food at a free buffet.

I've thrown out ideas--some of them admittedly ridiculous--including privatization and restricting payments to end of life coverage.

I find it telling that those who just want to scrap the system today are those who've paid the least.

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You keep using the fact that you've been forced to participate in an immoral system to justify forcing everyone else to continue participating in it.

No, I'd just like to see some portion of what I've paid in. If nothing else, I think a Lewinsky from a cute congressional intern would be in order. It would sure as hell be the most expensive one I've ever had. ;)

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...complain about it while saying it should continue just long enough so you can get your payout.

I believe it was Scanr who suggested that those under 42 be off the hook, with 42 very conveniently being his age. You'll notice that I remarked that the system is now projected to be insolvent in 2017, the year I would begin to collect.

Gewehr98

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Re: Obama Senior Bonus
« Reply #68 on: October 17, 2009, 11:46:09 AM »
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One possible "solution" would be to set SS back to the way it was when it was first started.  The age of retirement back then was roughly the same age as the average life expectancy.  The accounting was set up such that the burden of paying for each retiree was spread out over 30 separate workers, so that no worker had to pay for more than 1/30th of a single retirement.

Now the age of retirement is some 15 years sooner than the average life expectancy.  Now, instead of being able to spread the cost over 30 workers, 2 workers are expected to come up the money for a single retirement.  This situation is untenable.

Turn back the clocks.  Make things work today the same way they worked back then.  Set the minimum age for receiving benefits to 78, rather than 62.  Work the accounting so that no worker has to fund more than 1/30th of a single retirement.  

Retirees would howl, but this is fair.  This is what the system was designed to handle, and it's doable.  It doesn't end the system per se, so it isn't really a true solution.  But it does prevent the system from exploding the economy in the coming decades.

WTF, over?

You can receive the SS benefits you paid into for 50+ years right around the same time you're expected to die?   ;/

Jeebus, this thread has truly outlived its usefulness.  

I'll re-open it later - right around the time that we can all opt out of paying into SS without the IRS biting us in the posterior. 
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