Paranoid ramblings of anti-gunner

[Nitrogen]

Check out this article that the Brady Campaign wrote for the website, Opposing views:
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/crazy-continues-starbucks-still-allowing-guns-in-its-stores

Please try and stomach the article enough to read the comments.

We're winning.

[freakazoid]

But maybe the Starbucks customer base is really not as bed-wetting leftist as they're made out to be. 

Yeah, I don't like coffee but maybe I'll have to start going to Starbucks and acquiring a taste for the stuff.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

What you described isn't honesty.  It's loyalty.  He is more than willing to speak outright lies about guns in order to achieve the agenda of his masters.  He is loyal to them as he was to you as a mayor.  But his is indeed dishonest.

No more dishonest than an actor in a play or an attorney defending a murderer.  These are all jobs that need to be done, all part of the process, and an honest man does the job to the best of his ability.

You need to remove your emotion from the analysis and understand how the process works.  Political messages don't speak themselves.  You need people to speak the message, and that's all Helmke is here.  Our side does it this way, their side does it this way, it's just the nature of the 'game'.

Those who know Helmke, or other workers like him, understand that he's just a messenger.  You don't blame the messenger because you dislike the message.  I strongly dislike Helmke on a personal level, but I know better than to blame him for the actions and agendas of the Brady Group and VPC.  He isn't the driving force here, he's just a coincidence.  He and Brady are just passing travelers working together out of mutual self interest.

[Nitrogen]

But maybe the Starbucks customer base is really not as bed-wetting leftist as they're made out to be. 

Oh no, they are just as leftist as you think.
I think leftists really aren't what many of you think they are, at least in regards to guns.

I work from time to time with plenty of "leftists" (ACLU, pro-choice orgs, pro-GBLT orgs, etc) and many people these days in the 18-30 range are either pro-gun, or not anti-gun.  What I mean by "not anti-gun" is, they hold a view much like, "I'd never own one, but if some nut wants to, thats fine by me as long as they aren't hurting anyone."

Sure, there are plenty of politicians, especially at the federal/national level that are quite anti gun, but they are outdated.  Many folks, like my parents are from the "guns killed John Lennon, Martin Luther king, John and Bobby Kennedy, PANIC!!" generation.  We've got two generations seperating away from them, and sanity is returning at the grassroots, at least in regards to the topic of guns, and at least where I see it.

[BlueStarLizzard]

Yeah, I don't like coffee but maybe I'll have to start going to Starbucks and acquiring a taste for the stuff.

they have tea, smoothies and other drinks as well as pastry/muffin type food.

my issue with starbucks is that its WAY over priced. but thats a whole 'nother thing.

Oh no, they are just as leftist as you think.
I think leftists really aren't what many of you think they are, at least in regards to guns.

I work from time to time with plenty of "leftists" (ACLU, pro-choice orgs, pro-GBLT orgs, etc) and many people these days in the 18-30 range are either pro-gun, or not anti-gun.  What I mean by "not anti-gun" is, they hold a view much like, "I'd never own one, but if some nut wants to, thats fine by me as long as they aren't hurting anyone."

Sure, there are plenty of politicians, especially at the federal/national level that are quite anti gun, but they are outdated.  Many folks, like my parents are from the "guns killed John Lennon, Martin Luther king, John and Bobby Kennedy, PANIC!!" generation.  We've got two generations seperating away from them, and sanity is returning at the grassroots, at least in regards to the topic of guns, and at least where I see it.

yeah, what he said...

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Well, we have our own DB lawyer working for the NRA on the Chicago SCOTUS case that Gura started.

His credentials?

Former US District Attorney.  As a goobermint lawyer, he argued against Gura and represented the goobermint during the Heller SCOTUS case.  Yep.  Represented the anti-agenda, goobermint control, outright bans... oh, yeah:  and he LOST.

Now the NRA has forced Gura to allow this DB to consume some of Gura's precious oral argument time in front of SCOTUS.

So, we get our fair share of DBs, too.

And if our [deleted] and tools can win back some rights for us, why shouldn't we use them?

Language, folks!

[Perd Hapley]

Oh no, they are just as leftist as you think.
I think leftists really aren't what many of you think they are, at least in regards to guns.

Yeah, that's kinda what I meant. 

[Balog]

Someone who will tell vile lies and attempt to destroy my freedom because someone is paying him is kind of the definition of dishonest. Are you seriously saying we can't hold people accountable for their actions if they don't really believe in what they're doing? "I'm sure Horiuchi didn't really care about the Weavers, he was just doing what he was told." 

[BlueStarLizzard]

Someone who will tell vile lies and attempt to destroy my freedom because someone is paying him is kind of the definition of dishonest. Are you seriously saying we can't hold people accountable for their actions if they don't really believe in what they're doing? "I'm sure Horiuchi didn't really care about the Weavers, he was just doing what he was told." 

BALOG AND I AGREE ON SOMETHING!?!?!?! 

find the record books cause this don't happen all that often!

deeds, not intentions, have the final say when it comes to the history books.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Someone who will tell vile lies and attempt to destroy my freedom because someone is paying him is kind of the definition of dishonest. Are you seriously saying we can't hold people accountable for their actions if they don't really believe in what they're doing? "I'm sure Horiuchi didn't really care about the Weavers, he was just doing what he was told."  

So now holding different political opinions from yours is as bad as murdering someone?

 

The Brady and VPC people like to stretch the truth, sure.  They use dubious research and questionable facts.  They're about like the NRA and GOA in that regard.  The only real difference is that you and I disagree with Brady and VPC, whereas we don't disagree much with the NRA.  

All political organizations do this stuff.  This is how the system works.  Blaming figureheads like Paul Hlmke for the beliefs of entire organizations misses the point.  

Think about it.  If Wayne LaPiere disappeared tomorrow, would the NRA suddenly change its views on gun rights?  If Helmke vanished, would VPC suddenly support gun ownership?

[MicroBalrog]

Look, nobody is saying these people need to be imprisoned or something. They're just not good people. I don't see why I need to respect them as persons when all they do is try to pass laws that would put innocent people in prison.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I'm not saying you need to respect them as people.  I certainly don't respect Helmke, and I've said so several times.

What I want is for everyone to understand the process, and to act like they understand the process, so that we can all be effective in fighting these guys off.  Letting ourselves get emotionally worked up about a guy like Paul Helmke is beyond pointless.

Our side seems to have big problems working within the system.  We refuse to get involved in any process that might be tainted or imperfect.  We refuse to work with anyone imperfect or with questionable "morals", regardless of how much those people can help us.  We get pissed off at the stupidest little things and miss the big picture.  Most times we'd rather stand on our empty piety than get our hands dirty improving things.  We're far more interested in theoretical abstractions that with real world realities.

Consequently, the left cleans our clock every time in the political process.  Most of the country is conservative, and yet most of the government policies enacted are liberal.  They're simply much better at it than we are.

We need to get real so we can start fixing things.