French G.
friend
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« on: February 08, 2010, 06:12:34 PM » |
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Seems stupid to me, let's rely solely on something out in space rather than a tower we can walk out to and repair. Could you could make a facsimile of LORAN using cell towers? http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/02/08/loran.navigation.shutdown/index.html?hpt=T2 Washington -- Good night, Loran.
In a series of small ceremonies, the U.S. Coast Guard on Monday afternoon will shut down Loran-C, a navigation and timing system that has guided mariners and aviators since World War II.
The death blow came last May when President Obama called the system obsolete, saying it is no longer needed in an age in which Global Positioning System devices are nearly ubiquitous in cars, planes and boats.
Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five years, Obama said. But supporters of Loran -- including the man known as "the father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran as a backup... |
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AKA Navy Joe
FY47012
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bluestarlizzard
oh, thats how you get stuff written right there...
friend
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« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2010, 06:43:01 PM » |
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including the man known as "the father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran as a backup..  why would you shut down something the inventor of the thing that made it obsolete says we still need?  |
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"Okay, um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm angry, and I'm armed, so if you two have something that you need to work out --" -Malcolm Reynolds
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scout26
I'm a leaf on the wind.
friend
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YOU ARE ALL WEIRDOS
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« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2010, 06:44:41 PM » |
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Wait. I saw it here somewhere. Oh, yeah, here it is.  |
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Bureaucracies force us to practice nonsense, and if you rehearse nonsense, you may one day find yourself the victim of it.- L Gonzales
As democracy is perfected, the office of the President represents, more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. -H.L. Mencken
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Ben
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« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2010, 06:47:30 PM » |
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Interesting. I thought I read a couple of years ago that they had decided NOT to do this, at least for the foreseeable future, specifically for the redundancy. Oh well, I guess it's time for ships to break out the sextants and practice for just in case.
It's somewhat humorous to me to have read Obama's quote re: "obsolete" after just having watched "Surrogates". Not an Obama jab on my part directly -- it's becoming an almost societal idea that all our higher technology is bulletproof and will simply always be on and work. Do any of you that work in larger offices find it comical when the network goes down and people can't get their email? In my office people slowly emerge from their offices and cubes and shuffle around like zombies.
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Jayne: "You know -- me, Jayne Cobb."
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dogmush
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« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2010, 06:51:55 PM » |
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I don't know about aircraft, but I work on both military and commercial ships, there's no point in keeping LORAN up for them. Even if GPS took a dump working LORAN recievers on vessels are vanishingly rare. I probably haven't seen a working one in a decade or so. And that one was sketchy.
LORAN was a good system but it's been so totally eclipsed in market share (as opposed to tech) as to make it foolish to upkeep the transmitters.
No lie, untill last year we (the Army) taught our mariners to use ADF as a backup electronic NAVAID. You could tune that old hulk to almost any random transmiter on the chart and get a rough line of position. Heck, It's been so long I could probably grab a sextant and get a sun line before I could get a LORAN up and running.
Yes, it's nice to have a back-up, but it's got to be usable.
ETA: He He, I cross-posted with Ben. No joke, the sextants are more likely to be in good condition and have operaters handy.
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Ben
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« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2010, 07:00:58 PM » |
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I don't know about aircraft, but I work on both military and commercial ships, there's no point in keeping LORAN up for them.
I didn't see anything in the article, but I would hope they're not also talking about aviation and reducing VORTACS in the near future to save money. |
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Jayne: "You know -- me, Jayne Cobb."
Mal: “I know your name, jackass.”
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dogmush
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« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2010, 07:08:21 PM » |
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I didn't see anything in the article, but I would hope they're not also talking about aviation and reducing VORTACS in the near future to save money.
My statement was based on a dim memory of a LORAN in a C-172 in the early '90's. I know some GA guys used to use it but I have no idea how many kept the equipment. |
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Avenger29
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Bite My Shiny Metal Ass
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« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2010, 07:26:06 PM » |
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I didn't see anything in the article, but I would hope they're not also talking about aviation and reducing VORTACS in the near future to save money.
Yeah, that's what some are calling for...dunno if it'll happen, though. We have hardly used LORAN in aircraft lately, but surprisingly I've actually got some LORAN experience...the plane I spent most of my time in getting my license had an actual, functioning LORAN-C, and I enjoyed trying it out. I love GPS, but I am NOT comfortable depending on an instrument that can be purposefully thrown out of whack with the flip of a switch by the .gov. |
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sanglant
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« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2010, 07:58:08 PM » |
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I love GPS, but I am NOT comfortable depending on an instrument that can be purposefully thrown out of whack with the flip of a switch by the .gov.  the idiot's built the ffa system based on the antiterrorist deaccurized system? and people think the gooberment is there to protect the populace.  |
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Avenger29
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« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2010, 08:04:04 PM » |
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the idiot's built the ffa system based on the antiterrorist deaccurized system? and people think the gooberment is there to protect the populace. Well, it's pretty accurate (with WAAS augmentation) for now, but if they want to, accuracy can be quickly degraded without the slightest bit of warning. Imagine if you are on a GPS approach and suddenly it's not accurate any more... |
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sanglant
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« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2010, 08:08:58 PM » |
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i've read the white papers, i'm just shocked they didn't build the air based systems on the government system.  gonna be a BIG lawsuit if the families of the corpses(sorry but the obama pun was needed  ) find out. |
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RevDisk
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« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2010, 08:27:58 PM » |
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Well, it's pretty accurate (with WAAS augmentation) for now, but if they want to, accuracy can be quickly degraded without the slightest bit of warning. Imagine if you are on a GPS approach and suddenly it's not accurate any more...
I kinda cringe at any situation where lives would depend solely on GPS. For modern aircraft, it should not be a concern. Altimeter and ATC is your friend. Any military system using GPS either has the specialized anti-jamming modules, or backup systems. |
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To know the darkness is to love the light, to welcome dawn and fear the coming night. - The Book of Counted Sorrows RD dot Net"There I was, at 10,000 AGL in the back seat of an F-16D, tracking a 7 point buck that was stalking a hot, funny car driving chick..." - Lennyjoe. |
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RoadKingLarry
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« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2010, 08:32:10 PM » |
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First they killed OMEGA and NAVSAT and now LORAN.
Hey I know lets put ALL of our eggs in one basket, it isn't like any of our potential enemies have the technology to put stuff in orbit and kill our GPS birds or anything like that.
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Some people are like slinkies. Not really good for anything but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.
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stevelyn
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« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2010, 08:37:54 PM » |
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The death blow came last May when President Obama called the system obsolete, saying it is no longer needed in an age in which Global Positioning System devices are nearly ubiquitous in cars, planes and boats. Ironically a system that the military can shut down. Time to brush up on map and compass skills. |
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Be careful that the toes you step on now aren't connected to the ass you have to kiss later.
Eat Moose. Wear Wolf.
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KD5NRH
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« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2010, 08:46:30 PM » |
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I kinda cringe at any situation where lives would depend solely on GPS. For modern aircraft, it should not be a concern. Altimeter and ATC is your friend. Don't forget the most reliable system; those clear things above the instrument panel, and the glowy things alongside the runway. |
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Fly320s
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« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2010, 03:11:21 AM » |
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Well, it's pretty accurate (with WAAS augmentation) for now, but if they want to, accuracy can be quickly degraded without the slightest bit of warning. Imagine if you are on a GPS approach and suddenly it's not accurate any more...
"RNP lost. Go around." |
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Now what?
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RevDisk
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« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2010, 05:18:46 AM » |
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Don't forget the most reliable system; those clear things above the instrument panel, and the glowy things alongside the runway.
.... Have you MET many pilots? |
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To know the darkness is to love the light, to welcome dawn and fear the coming night. - The Book of Counted Sorrows RD dot Net"There I was, at 10,000 AGL in the back seat of an F-16D, tracking a 7 point buck that was stalking a hot, funny car driving chick..." - Lennyjoe. |
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HankB
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« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2010, 05:30:03 AM » |
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| why would you shut down something the inventor of the thing that made it obsolete says we still need? Well, the alternative is GPS, and . . . . . . if they want to, accuracy can be quickly degraded without the slightest bit of warning. Wouldn't it be easier to perturb one system (GPS) rather than two? (Hmmm . . . need I be wearing my tinfoil hat?) |
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Pay attention - the inmates ARE running the asylum!
Why CAN'T we send 12 13 14 15 16 miillion illegals across the border? MEXICO DID!
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Avenger29
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Bite My Shiny Metal Ass
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« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2010, 08:05:49 AM » |
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Well, the alternative is GPS, and . . .
Wouldn't it be easier to perturb one system (GPS) rather than two?
(Hmmm . . . need I be wearing my tinfoil hat?)
Make no mistake, they could almost certainly throw off LORAN, too (If they remembered to do so...). Not that it matters because few aircraft have LORAN equipment, anyway. VORTACs, NDBs, and the like are harder to screw with. |
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KD5NRH
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« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2010, 04:54:36 PM » |
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.... Have you MET many pilots? Mostly GA pilots of the old school: water towers, and failing that, dropping down to read the road signs were the primary nav methods. |
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Fly320s
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« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2010, 05:04:16 PM » |
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Mostly GA pilots of the old school: water towers, and failing that, dropping down to read the road signs were the primary nav methods.
That's called IFR flying.... I Follow Roads. |
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KD5NRH
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« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2010, 07:33:26 PM » |
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That's called IFR flying.... I Follow Roads. Makes for some interesting nighttime trips, let me tell ya. Nothing quite like getting low and slow enough to use the landing lights to read rural highway signs, while hoping there aren't any power lines nearby. Instruments are for when it's too foggy to find the ground. |
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MillCreek
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« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2010, 08:03:01 PM » |
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The CNN story on the Loran had a picture of the Coast Guard station on Attu, complete with what looked like a mounted M2 or 20 mm cannon with splinter shield by the station.
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_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA USA
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sanglant
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« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2010, 11:07:45 PM » |
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Makes for some interesting nighttime trips, let me tell ya. Nothing quite like getting low and slow enough to use the landing lights to read rural highway signs, while hoping there aren't any power lines nearby. Instruments are for when it's too foggy to find the ground.
try being on the road underneath |
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