Author Topic: TSA Super Thread  (Read 210162 times)

seeker_two

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Re: Fighting back against the TSA?
« Reply #175 on: November 17, 2010, 12:35:17 PM »
You are right; by our standards.   The term "liberal" today is NOT the same as what the founders would think and neither is "conservative."   We (or atleast myself) consider ourselves "conservative" because we want to "conserve" what the founders gave us.  NOT what King George considered "good" :O  government.   I do disagree with your last sentence; you can consider yourself a patriot and a conservative.  You can also consider yourself "a High Minded Son of Liberty" and a patriot.  Now, the "revolutionary" part ... yeah, that doesn't go too well with "conservative", does it? ;/ =D
But the earlier were primarily a matter of opinion.  

This.....
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

CNYCacher

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Re: Fighting back against the TSA?
« Reply #176 on: November 17, 2010, 12:43:17 PM »
Wow - this is insane.  I took my last flight on a commercial carrier with carry on only, and I got to take all the liquids and water I wanted.  No one asked me for a ticket to pass through security, I left my shoes on, and no one touched me. 

In very early September 2001, I flew from Minneapolis to Syracuse and the kid next to me had a Sumurai sword as a carry-on.  I was there when he went through security as well.  "But it isn't even sharpened, it's just a training blade." from his mother won her an "Oh, alright, be careful with it!" from the security guy.

How far we've fallen.
On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
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Pharmacology

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Re: Fighting back against the TSA?
« Reply #177 on: November 17, 2010, 12:45:26 PM »
I should disagree; there is nothing left to conserve.
The old country is dead and gone due to complacency, and we're striving to make something new.

That is why the tea party, in all of its ridiculous showmanship, is having an effect.

roo_ster

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Re: Fighting back against the TSA?
« Reply #178 on: November 17, 2010, 01:12:03 PM »
Regards,

roo_ster

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P5 Guy

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Re: Fighting back against the TSA?
« Reply #179 on: November 17, 2010, 01:13:14 PM »
I stopped flying when they started increasing the number of seats by making them smaller and closer together. Add to that the fees and loss of eats. Noway will I be in an airport anytime soon. I hope they don't start with trains and busses. [ar15]

Seenterman

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Re: Fighting back against the TSA?
« Reply #180 on: November 17, 2010, 01:38:52 PM »
What would happen if I as a male asked for a female to do the "pat down"? That would be much more comfortable for me as I've conditioned myself to allow for females touching my junk, =D but another guy trying to touch my junk :O  , well I'm gonna have a much bigger problem with that.


Strings

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Re: TSA Plays "Pocket Pool" With Passenger's Equipment
« Reply #181 on: November 17, 2010, 03:17:05 PM »
I've been avoiding any of the videos of the TSA checking out kids. NOT something I would be able to sit by and watch...
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longeyes

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Re: TSA Plays "Pocket Pool" With Passenger's Equipment
« Reply #182 on: November 17, 2010, 04:15:39 PM »
Politics and perversity merged a while back.  Enjoy.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Fighting back against the TSA?
« Reply #183 on: November 17, 2010, 04:24:13 PM »
4 page document signed by some very knowledgeable PhDs and MDs about the effects of the TSA Backscatter Xray machines.
http://www.npr.org/assets/news/2010/05/17/concern.pdf


4 guys at u of sf?  thats a sampling.... ask em how much radiation you get on the flight itself at 35 k feet  and compare the amounts
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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TechMan

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Re: Fighting back against the TSA?
« Reply #184 on: November 17, 2010, 04:28:39 PM »

4 guys at u of sf?  thats a sampling.... ask em how much radiation you get on the flight itself at 35 k feet  and compare the amounts

Did you bother to read the document?
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dogmush

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Re: Fighting back against the TSA?
« Reply #185 on: November 17, 2010, 04:47:42 PM »
Did you bother to read the document?

Since it doesn't appear to be copyrighted, let me help him out.

Quote
The X-ray dose from these devices has often been compared in the media to the cosmic
ray exposure inherent to airplane travel or that of a chest X-ray. However, this
comparison is very misleading: both the air travel cosmic ray exposure and chest Xrays
have much higher X-ray energies and the health consequences are appropriately
understood in terms of the whole body volume dose. In contrast, these new airport
scanners are largely depositing their energy into the skin and immediately adjacent
tissue, and since this is such a small fraction of body weight/vol, possibly by one to two
orders of magnitude, the real dose to the skin is now high.


In addition, it appears that real independent safety data do not exist. A search,
ultimately finding top FDA radiation physics staff, suggests that the relevant radiation
quantity, the Flux [photons per unit area and time (because this is a scanning device)]
has not been characterized.
Instead an indirect test (Air Kerma) was made that
emphasized the whole body exposure value, and thus it appears that the danger is low
when compared to cosmic rays during airplane travel and a chest X-ray dose.

Bolding mine.  The crux seems to be no real studies have been done.  We just have the TSA's promise that their machines are safe.  Just like the promise that they can't store images......

BridgeRunner

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Re: Fighting back against the TSA?
« Reply #186 on: November 17, 2010, 04:58:16 PM »
Bolding mine.  The crux seems to be no real studies have been done.  We just have the TSA's promise that their machines are safe.  Just like the promise that they can't store images......

But..but...no one has EVER been hurt by using cool new radiation technologies without adequate safety studies.  ;/

This was and is my biggest objection to the things.  I don't care much about who sees me nekkid, I spend too much time in locker rooms and running shorts, but I have a big problem with the whole touching thing.  If forced to fly, I'd probably pick the frisking over the scanner because of radiation concerns, and deal with it, but in the past it would not have been so easy. 

I wonder how many people who have experienced sexual abuse or rape end up little messy puddles on the floor after this enhanced fondling procedure?  I know quite a few people who simply could not handle it at all.   

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: TSA Plays "Pocket Pool" With Passenger's Equipment
« Reply #187 on: November 17, 2010, 06:33:52 PM »
looking into a 3 year old's pants?


i watched it twice  where did that happen?  i hope you aren't using .33?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Fighting back against the TSA?
« Reply #188 on: November 17, 2010, 06:43:51 PM »
: both the air travel cosmic ray exposure and chest Xrays
have much higher X-ray energies and the health consequences are appropriately
understood in terms of the whole body volume dose



the real dose to the skin is now high.

how high is it?  we have four "experts" at one school surely one of em can come closer than 1 to 2 orders of magnitude? thats a pretty broad range to toss a swag at.   especially since the flight itself is characterized as one order of magnitude higher than the scan
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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TechMan

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Re: Fighting back against the TSA?
« Reply #189 on: November 17, 2010, 07:14:48 PM »
: both the air travel cosmic ray exposure and chest Xrays
have much higher X-ray energies and the health consequences are appropriately
understood in terms of the whole body volume dose



the real dose to the skin is now high.

how high is it?  we have four "experts" at one school surely one of em can come closer than 1 to 2 orders of magnitude? thats a pretty broad range to toss a swag at.   especially since the flight itself is characterized as one order of magnitude higher than the scan

The reason for the swag:
Quote
In summary, if the key data (flux-integrated photons per unit values) were available, it would be straightforward to accurately model the dose being deposited in the skin and adjacent tissues using available computer codes, which would resolve the potential concerns over radiation damage.
Quote
Hawkmoon - Never underestimate another person's capacity for stupidity. Any time you think someone can't possibly be that dumb ... they'll prove you wrong.

Bacon and Eggs - A day's work for a chicken; A lifetime commitment for a pig.
Stupidity will always be its own reward.
Bad decisions make good stories.

Quote
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Fighting back against the TSA?
« Reply #190 on: November 17, 2010, 07:15:36 PM »
To the conservative/liberal conversation, what do you you all think would be a more accurate descriptor of those two political ideologies in their current form? Communist-Socialist and National-Socialist are just a couple that immediately spring to mind, but I haven't thought into it much yet, does anyone have anything more insightful to offer?


4 page document signed by some very knowledgeable PhDs and MDs about the effects of the TSA Backscatter Xray machines.
http://www.npr.org/assets/news/2010/05/17/concern.pdf

I think it might be a sign of the apocalypse that I'm agreeing with anything coming out of the San Fran area. I've been trying to talk to some friends about excess exposure courtesy these devices and have been continually blown off due to the line "it's less than a chest x-ray." Perhaps now some will actually listen. (In the interests of honest representation, the whole of my radiological exposure training comes from a combination of general Navy CBR training, shipboard damage control specific to radiological contamination and working with high-power RF emitters.)


how high is it?  we have four "experts" at one school surely one of em can come closer than 1 to 2 orders of magnitude? thats a pretty broad range to toss a swag at.   especially since the flight itself is characterized as one order of magnitude higher than the scan

Wow. Just wow. Are you really trying to imply that four doctors who have spun their entire lives around the study of radiation exposure and it's effects on biology in general and humans specifically would know nothing of this subject? Might I ask what breadth and depth of knowledge you draw upon in order to assert in any form that they may be wrong? Even lacking my own current knowledge base, I would take the word of these four people over every TSA security drone, PR flak and administrator, combined.

dogmush

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Re: Fighting back against the TSA?
« Reply #191 on: November 17, 2010, 07:24:38 PM »
how high is it?  we have four "experts" at one school surely one of em can come closer than 1 to 2 orders of magnitude? thats a pretty broad range to toss a swag at.   especially since the flight itself is characterized as one order of magnitude higher than the scan

How many Lumens are hitting my skin right now?

I'm not going to give you any info beyond I have a computer monitor some incandecent's, some CFL's and a LED.  Anything beyond that is either propritery, or sensitive because of terrorists.  How much light?

You can't tell?  Even a range? well, I guess you're a fool and we can dismiss anything you say.

See the parallel?  The information needed to accuratlly tell the answer to your question isin't being released.  And I mentioned TSA's credibility.  So unless you have a doctorate in radiation, or can come up with a credible reason these four folks with doctorates are wrong........... you're APS' version of WND on this subject.  =D ;)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 07:30:10 PM by dogmush »

zahc

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Re: Fighting back against the TSA?
« Reply #192 on: November 17, 2010, 07:34:33 PM »

Quote
4 guys at u of sf?  thats a sampling.... ask em how much radiation you get on the flight itself at 35 k feet  and compare the amounts

The principle difference is that radiation endured during the flight itself comes from space and the person's own cost/benefit calculation and consent. The radiation from the backscatter machines comes from the government imposing it on the populous. To me, the relative amounts don't even matter. But hey, who needs principles anyway.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Fighting back against the TSA?
« Reply #193 on: November 17, 2010, 07:40:27 PM »
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60553920100106

But the radiation levels are well below the threshold that could be considered a risk to an individual's health, said Dr. James Thrall of the American College of Radiology and chief of radiology at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston.

"All of the concerns that we have about the medical use of X-rays really don't apply to these devices," Thrall said in a telephone interview.

"The exposure is extremely low and the energy of the X-rays is also very, very low," he said.

"When X-rays are used for medical imaging purposes, they have to be energetic enough to get through the human body. The X-rays used in the backscatter machines in airports have such low energy that they literally bounce off the skin. That is what backscatter implies," Thrall said.



As for the actual radiation dose, he said the typical backscatter machines deliver about 0.1 microsevert of radiation. The average chest X-ray, by comparison, delivers 100 microseverts of radiation, and a chest computed tomography or CT scan delivers 10,000 microseverts.

According to the Transportation Security Administration website, the radiation dose from a single scan on a backscatter machine is the equivalent of two minutes of flying on an airplane.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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zahc

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Re: Fighting back against the TSA?
« Reply #194 on: November 17, 2010, 07:44:16 PM »
Irrelevant. So what if the radiation dose is equal to 1/100th of a chest xray or whatever. Chest xrays are voluntary, and undergone for good reasons--different reasons than "because the TSA wants to play pervert".  1/100th of a government-imposed xray is too much. There is no amount of radiation that is acceptable for the government to impose on the populace. .00001mg of ricin intravenously, per day, might be completely harmless, but it is not acceptable for the government to force people to take that much. Or any amount.  Period.
Maybe a rare occurence, but then you only have to get murdered once to ruin your whole day.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Fighting back against the TSA?
« Reply #195 on: November 17, 2010, 07:50:57 PM »
http://pagingdrgupta.blogs.cnn.com/2010/01/07/could-airport-scanners-give-too-much-radiation/

http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/faqs/effectsandsecurityscreening.html

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/11/16/5477568-are-airport-x-ray-scanners-harmful?GT1=43001


heres what the 4 sf docs said
We are unanimous in believing that the potential health consequences need to be rigorously studied before these scanners are adopted," the panel wrote. "Modifications that reduce radiation exposure need to be explored as soon as possible."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/travel/2010/11/17/2010-11-17_forget_privacy__experts_at_odds_over_whether_airport_body_scanners_are_safe_.html#ixzz15agax6xW
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

lupinus

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Re: TSA Plays "Pocket Pool" With Passenger's Equipment
« Reply #196 on: November 17, 2010, 07:57:37 PM »
looking into a 3 year old's pants?


i watched it twice  where did that happen?  i hope you aren't using .33?
Yes around the 30 second mark does look rather like it.

Irregardless, WTF purpose does it serve to give a detailed wanding to a three year old?
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: TSA Plays "Pocket Pool" With Passenger's Equipment
« Reply #197 on: November 17, 2010, 08:18:47 PM »
Yes around the 30 second mark does look rather like it.

Irregardless, WTF purpose does it serve to give a detailed wanding to a three year old?

calling that looking in the kids pants is a reach


http://hillbuzz.org/2009/12/28/could-the-underwear-bomb-herald-the-coming-diaper-bomb/
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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lupinus

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Re: TSA Plays "Pocket Pool" With Passenger's Equipment
« Reply #198 on: November 17, 2010, 08:28:14 PM »
calling that looking in the kids pants is a reach


http://hillbuzz.org/2009/12/28/could-the-underwear-bomb-herald-the-coming-diaper-bomb/
Maybe, but if that's my kid I don't care if the TSA guys takes a quick peak or makes sure to thoroughly examine his johnson, the SOAB still looked down my kids pants.

And so what if the remote minuscule chance is there? They are just as likely, probably more so, to use the anal or vaginal cavity to hide an explosive set on some sort of delay. Should a woman have to submit to being raped? I mean, after all, there might be a bomb up there.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Fighting back against the TSA?
« Reply #199 on: November 17, 2010, 08:31:34 PM »
True, if you want to use 100 year old definitions of the words.  By that measure, you wouldn't call Democrats liberal or progressive either. 

100 years ago, the Progressive movement was already socialist.
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