Author Topic: TSA Super Thread  (Read 210326 times)

MicroBalrog

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Re: TSA Super Thread
« Reply #375 on: November 21, 2010, 10:45:27 PM »
Thank you. Precisely my point.

Yes, I'm sure there are certain ways of getting stuff past security. Failing that, there are ways of making weapons out of stuff you have on the plane.

Coke cans can be fashioned into a flail, or a set of mean knives. You can kill a man with a salt shaker and other things placed on the table of an average restaurant.

At some point, we're going to ask ourselves: what is our cost/benefit analysis? We're never going to stop EVERYTHING, so we're going to have to ACCEPT a certain degree of insecurity. What level of security can we accept?

A set of cheap and non-intrusive measures (metal-detectors, arming the pilots, etc. etc.) will stop most of the sillier and more ridiculous terrorists.  If we want, however, to stop trained ninjas from getting on board aircraft wit ceramic knives, we need to expend FAR more time, effort, and privacy to get there from here. Diminishing returns are already starting to hit.

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Ben

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Re: TSA Super Thread
« Reply #376 on: November 22, 2010, 12:25:41 AM »
So... why, exactly, can America not just revert to the situation up to 2008? Why are metal detectors and explosive sniffers not enough?

Interesting tangent to this on policies: When was the last time any of you that fly was asked to turn your laptop on by the TSA agent or pull the battery? For the first couple of years I had to do this all the time prior to the laptop going through the x-ray. For the last 6-7 years, I've never been asked to. It's not like that potential threat went away.

This is why current policies are so maddening -- it's always a reaction to whatever threat just happened. Laptop bombs are apparently passe so we don't go through all those procedures anymore.
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De Selby

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Re: TSA Super Thread
« Reply #377 on: November 22, 2010, 12:30:20 AM »
Interesting tangent to this on policies: When was the last time any of you that fly was asked to turn your laptop on by the TSA agent or pull the battery? For the first couple of years I had to do this all the time prior to the laptop going through the x-ray. For the last 6-7 years, I've never been asked to. It's not like that potential threat went away.

This is why current policies are so maddening -- it's always a reaction to whatever threat just happened. Laptop bombs are apparently passe so we don't go through all those procedures anymore.

They are transparently knee-jerk reactions.  I get the feeling that someone up in the TSA offices has seen one too many episodes of "24", and spends all of his days in "condition crimson" or whatever colour code they use for terror threats now. 

I think the security measures in place before 9/11 were fine.  The hijackers took advantage of a presumption that they'd just land the plane somewhere and hold everyone hostage.  If that same presumption existed today, these enhanced measures would not have stopped 9/11.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Perd Hapley

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Re: TSA Super Thread
« Reply #378 on: November 22, 2010, 12:32:07 AM »
I think the security measures in place before 9/11 were fine.

Perhaps the real issue is that no politician or bureaucrat can dare to utter the above words. They have to DO SOMETHING! to ensure against any future 9-11s.
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De Selby

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Re: TSA Super Thread
« Reply #379 on: November 22, 2010, 12:38:37 AM »
Perhaps the real issue is that no politician or bureaucrat can dare to utter the above words. They have to DO SOMETHING! to ensure against any future 9-11s.

That's a big part of the problem - they need a program they can put on the news to demonstrate action. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

longeyes

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Re: TSA Super Thread
« Reply #380 on: November 22, 2010, 12:57:08 AM »
The real risks to Americans are via sea and air freight, and by localized terror attacks (malls, schools, airports).  Not all of these will be stopped by the TSA or, for that matter, by DHS.  We're in a war, and in a war like this significant casualties are unavoidable.  What can be done is to make the enemy pay a higher price than he, or his allies and subsidizers, are willing to pay.  Unfortunately, the people in D.C. are unwilling to do this, probably because too many are inextricably entwined with elements on the other side.  Only when the American people demand that we take this war seriously and do what's necessary on offense will anything change.  If they don't we will end up with a police state not that different from what our enemies take for granted as a normal society.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: TSA Super Thread
« Reply #381 on: November 22, 2010, 03:10:38 AM »
Quote
I think the security measures in place before 9/11 were fine.


This.

The problem is that by the time you have dudes so hard they can fight their way into the cockpit with nothing but flimsy boxcutters, you're not going to stop them by checking them from weapons. Of course, you're going to easily stop a random idiot who gets up in the morning and decides he wants to hijack Flight 5665, but a pre-9/11 security system would have already done so.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: TSA Super Thread
« Reply #382 on: November 22, 2010, 08:25:26 AM »
That's a big part of the problem - they need a program they can put on the news to demonstrate action. 

The real problem is that the American people are too willing to take that for the answer. 
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longeyes

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Re: TSA Super Thread
« Reply #383 on: November 22, 2010, 10:10:54 AM »
The real problem is that America is still at the mall, and the ones who aren't are probably cashing gov't checks.

Riddle me this: how do open societies beat tribalist, religionist societies and stay open and free unless they use the strengths that such societies have?  We have the means to take down our enemies, but instead we are letting them wear us down with a thousand cuts.  We have "leadership" that lies to the American people about the nature of this and what it will take to win it.  We can't name the enemy and we have restrictive rules of engagement; we certainly do not have anything resembling serious mobilization.  If and when we begin to suffer losses domestically it will, with these people in control and with this culture, be nothing but a great opportunity to put fetters on American society.  Anything but acknowledge that core policies pursued by the American Left and by our internationalist corporate businesses have brought us to this sorry pass.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: TSA Super Thread
« Reply #384 on: November 22, 2010, 10:15:54 AM »
Quote
Riddle me this: how do open societies beat tribalist, religionist societies and stay open and free unless they use the strengths that such societies have?

1. Do what is already being done. Engage their silly paramilitaries with military force. Establish not merely victories - establish incredibly lopsided, and legendary victories. People learn. They will give up before America does. Happily a platoon of United States Marines or even one of America's lesser allies can defeat battalions of terrorists.

2. Ignore their crap. Assuming they are being engaged militarily, a 'society' like Afghanistan cannot meaningfully threaten the United States. THey can pull off isolated - and sometimes very menacing - attacks against America (which is something that cannot be fully prevented, EVER), but in the civilization contest, they have already lost.

Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

longeyes

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Re: TSA Super Thread
« Reply #385 on: November 22, 2010, 10:21:57 AM »
That was indeed my point, Micro: establish, to borrow some of your words and add a few of my own, not merely victories but lopsided, legendary victories that sear into the consciousness of the enemy a demoralizing lesson.  And, yes, again, Afghanistan per se is not a threat to us.  What's a threat to us is Islamists armed and backed by nations that endorse state-subsidized terror.  We know who they are, but we have yet to get our minds around the magnitude of that challenge.  All of what we have seen since 9/11 is just a prelude, an anteroom, while we catch our breath and play out all the smaller options that we wish would work but ultimately won't.
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Ben

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Re: TSA Super Thread
« Reply #386 on: November 22, 2010, 10:23:09 AM »
1. Do what is already being done. Engage their silly paramilitaries with military force. Establish not merely victories - establish incredibly lopsided, and legendary victories. People learn. They will give up before America does. Happily a platoon of United States Marines or even one of America's lesser allies can defeat battalions of terrorists.

Sadly, I'm guessing few, if any, in the White House have read, let alone understood von Clausewitz. And Machiavelli is simply known as some kind of masochist.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

mtnbkr

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Re: TSA Super Thread
« Reply #387 on: November 22, 2010, 10:42:25 AM »
Quote from: thealwayssexpositivemicrobalrog
2. Ignore their crap. Assuming they are being engaged militarily, a 'society' like Afghanistan cannot meaningfully threaten the United States. THey can pull off isolated - and sometimes very menacing - attacks against America (which is something that cannot be fully prevented, EVER), but in the civilization contest, they have already lost.

Honestly, I think this is the best tactic with these people.  Ignore them, pull out of their countries, and let them implode.  When they enter our homelands and cause havoc, kill them, but give up on trying to occupy their shithole "nations".  I don't think Option 1 will work because they don't have anything, don't want anything, and don't care enough about their fellow man to worry about death of their comrades. 

If you did manage to kill every currently existing terrorist, that action alone will cause others to rise up.  If you fully subjugated Afghanistan, like-minded folks in another stone-age hellhole will take up the fight.  You can't kill enough of these savages to make them stop because that killing is part of what breeds them.

Chris

vaskidmark

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Re: TSA Super Thread
« Reply #388 on: November 22, 2010, 10:53:15 AM »

This.

The problem is that by the time you have dudes so hard they can fight their way into the cockpit with nothing but flimsy boxcutters, you're not going to stop them by checking them from weapons. Of course, you're going to easily stop a random idiot who gets up in the morning and decides he wants to hijack Flight 5665, but a pre-9/11 security system would have already done so.

But the hijackers did NOT fight their way into the cockpits.

They merely threatened to cut a few people.

"Give them what they want and they will not hurt you" apparently does not turn out so well when what they want is to use your aircraft as a giant lawn dart before they let all the passengers off.

As has been mentioned, it is probably the difficulty of getting people into the country to carry out attacks, as opposed to being able to carry out the attacks.  Stuff you can buy at any grocery or hardware store without the first eyebrow being raised can be put into a backpack purchased at the local drugstore's school-supply aisle and carried to just about anywhere short of a courthouse without raising the first eyebrow.

So how come we have not suffered such attacks?  Luck or good intelligence/operations?

stay safe.
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Ben

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Re: TSA Super Thread
« Reply #389 on: November 22, 2010, 11:02:37 AM »
So how come we have not suffered such attacks?  Luck or good intelligence/operations?

stay safe.

Excellent question. Right after 9/11, officers from what's now ICE were doing facility inspections of Federal buildings for anti-terrorism safety. The inspections included briefings of potential attacks of not just the Fed buildings, but the community in general. I'm the safety / emergency response guy for my building, so I got the briefings. Nothing classified or FOUO, and probably easily found on the web, but I won't go into detail.

Some of the potential attacks were exceptionally evil and exceptionally easy to execute. I've always wondered why none of them have been carried out.
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Tallpine

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Re: TSA Super Thread
« Reply #390 on: November 22, 2010, 11:19:25 AM »
Has anyone else observed that these supposed security procedures seem less designed to find explosives and weapons, and more designed to find cash, jewelry, drugs, etc ... ???
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MicroBalrog

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Re: TSA Super Thread
« Reply #391 on: November 22, 2010, 11:23:23 AM »
Perhaps a brief story will elucidate on what I mean.

The person who runs the medieval fencing class I attend is a veteran. Not anything spectacular, but still, combat infantry. Now, it is his belief - I do not know why - that bar fights are fun. So whenever he goes to Russia to visit his friends and relatives, he makes it a point to get into a fight.

Last time he was there, he managed to get himself attacked by three fellows. One of them, his friends dealt with, and two, he beat up and they ran off. Now, why is that story instructive? Not because this specific individual is John Rambo - but because he isn't.

Consider a tough bar fighter in a country like Russia. Now he's seen some moves, and he's been doing this for two or three years. He probably has some good instinct, and maybe his older brother showed him some good moves when he was twelve. If he were to fight me, he'd clock me in the face  few times and then stomp on my body when I fell. But two of these guys got their butt kicked by a guy who did IDF enlisted service. Why? Because the guy studied a real, military martial art. That art had been developed for him by scientists and sports professionals over the course of several years, and then the process of TEACHING the art to him was developed by professionals in the sports and education field.

An Afghani terrorist is not unlike this bar fighter. His Dad taught him a few tricks from fighting the Russians, and maybe he's gone to an Al-Quaeda training camp or something. Maybe not.

When he goes up against an American, German, or any other allied soldier, he's going up against an entirely other league of fellow. A fellow whose entire system of training - from navigation to small arms combat - is worked out scientifically. The choice of equipment he carries, even the weight of his combat gear is the product of some eggheads researching into ortopedics, optics, medicine, engineering, ergonomics, ballistics, nuclear physics, materials science, tactics, military history, psychology, education. The fact his gun is better, his optics are shinier, whatever - is a product of the fact that our civilization handles KNOWLEDGE better.

It is only in the imagination of small-minded men that being civilized makes us softer and weaker. Being civilized has allowed us to produce the hardest combatants the world has ever known: soldiers who grab armed terrorists and throw them on the terrorists' own grenades, soldiers who can fight - in close combat, using only knives and shovels - against a numerically-exceeding horde of terrorists, and then stab and hack them to death with almost no casualties. Every United States Marine, every Israeli paratrooper, every Russian VDV paratrooper fighting against Wahabbis would - by the standards of ancient Greece, the middle ages, the 17th century - be taken as an incredible hero of epic legend.

And unlike any of these pitiful worthless 'tards whom we call 'terrorists', we can produce these men as a routine process. More, we have more of these men  than any of these cultures can produce fighting men at all.

And now think of the equipment we produce for these men. Every single one of the inventions I will list now are not merely 'cool' - each of them individually is a revolution in armed combat. Equipping your men with Trijicon scopes increases their capability as combat marksmen by 100% on average. Equipping your military with electronic, live-updating C3 systems makes it possible to coordinate disparate units by the click of a button where a lesser organization would resort to long radio exchanges on all levels, or even (in the case of some terrorist groups) runners. And then there are the more obvious things - guided munitions, UAVs, combat robots, etc.

The Afghani are many things, but they do learn. Every time a platoon of Marines takes down a company of Al Quaeda, they see and they learn. And for the Americans, the Germans, the British - these sort of victories are not even the stuff of legend. For them it is something they do routinely.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

mtnbkr

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Re: TSA Super Thread
« Reply #392 on: November 22, 2010, 11:43:27 AM »
MB, nobody doubts our ability to beat them one-on-one or in groups.  The question in my mind is whether it is possible or even desirable to kill enough of them to make those wavering between becoming a terrorist or not decide it isn't worth it.  I don't think that's possible in a culture that apparently doesn't fear death. 

The apparent mindset of those who *would* become a terrorist is one of "the US killed a Muslim, I must avenge my brother".  This is a process that breeds as many as it kills. 

Chris


MicroBalrog

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Re: TSA Super Thread
« Reply #393 on: November 22, 2010, 12:00:21 PM »
Where do you get this idea that their culture doesn't fear death? If it doesn't, why are their 'warriors of Allah' so cowardly, most of the time?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

mtnbkr

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Re: TSA Super Thread
« Reply #394 on: November 22, 2010, 12:04:37 PM »
Maybe "doesn't fear death" is an overstatement, but it doesn't seem to hold the same deterrent that it does for most Westerners.  That doesn't change the fact that each new terrorist seems to spring up in reaction to the killing of another. 

Chris

TechMan

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Re: TSA Super Thread
« Reply #395 on: November 22, 2010, 01:19:56 PM »
TSA has released a list of items not to carry-on this Thanksgiving:

Fox News Article: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/11/22/snowglobes-pumpkin-pie-tsa-issues-thanksgiving-rules-air-travel/

Actual TSA List:  http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/holiday.shtm

Traveling with Food or Gifts

How to Pack Food and Gift Items
image of christmas gifts, perfume, and fruit cake

When it comes to bringing items through checkpoints, we've seen just about everything. Traveling with food or gifts is an even bigger challenge. Everyone has favorite foods from home that they want to bring to holiday dinners, or items from their destination that they want to bring back home.

Not sure about what you can and can't bring through the checkpoint? Here's a list of liquid, aerosol and gel items that you should put in your checked bag, ship ahead, or leave at home.

    * Cranberry sauce
    * Cologne
    * Creamy dips and spreads
      (cheeses, peanut butter, etc.)
    * Gift baskets with food items
      (salsa, jams and salad dressings)
    * Gravy
    * Jams
    * Jellies
    * Lotions
    * Maple syrup
    * Oils and vinegars
    * Perfume
    * Salad dressing
    * Salsa
    * Sauces
    * Snowglobes
    * Soups
    * Wine, liquor and beer

Note: You can bring pies and cakes through the security checkpoint, but please be advised that they are subject to additional screening.

Remember! – do not wrap gifts you're taking on the plane. Security officers may have to unwrap gifts if they need to take a closer look. Please ship wrapped gifts ahead of time or wait until your destination to wrap them.

* Items purchased after the security checkpoint have been pre-screened and can be taken on the plane.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 01:49:54 PM by adively »
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Tallpine

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Re: TSA Super Thread
« Reply #396 on: November 22, 2010, 02:48:19 PM »
Quote
When it comes to bringing items through checkpoints, we've seen just about everything. Traveling with food or gifts is an even bigger challenge. Everyone has favorite foods from home that they want to bring to holiday dinners, or items from their destination that they want to bring back home.

Not sure about what you can and can't bring through the checkpoint?  Don't even think about flying.  You'd best drive instead.

Fixed it  ;)
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas

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Re: TSA Super Thread
« Reply #397 on: November 22, 2010, 03:01:15 PM »
Quote
The apparent mindset of those who *would* become a terrorist is one of "the US killed a Muslim, I must avenge my brother".  This is a process that breeds as many as it kills.  
And those guys won't change unless they see the terrorist Muslims being killed as scumbags, IMO.
There are at least two kinds of people who read this story [torture mentioned]:
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/our-muslim-friends-suffer-too.htm
One kind says: "I'm never going into the military."
Another says: "I'm definitely going into the military. These bastards need to be shot down."
Some people react with fear, some react with anger.

AZRedhawk44

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Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!
« Reply #398 on: November 22, 2010, 06:08:00 PM »
gigglesnort. :lol:

http://today.msnbc.com/id/40318901/ns/travel-news/

Won't someone please think of the children UNION EMPLOYEES?

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: TSA Super Thread
« Reply #399 on: November 22, 2010, 06:37:00 PM »
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/22/AR2010112205514.html?hpid=topnews

and the survey says....

Nearly two-thirds of Americans support the new full-body security-screening machines at the country's airports, as most say they put higher priority on combating terrorism than protecting personal privacy, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I