Mumbai Massacre Story

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

Very good article here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/14/AR2010111404511.html
Speaks to the amount of training participants went through, the tactics used, recon performed. I laughed a bit when I read that some of the martyrs chickened out of swim training.

[AZRedhawk44]

The notion that they recruit internationally, spend years training and planning, and then execute in coordinated teams scares the bejeezus out of me and makes me look at the local firearms school class roster... what's next on my "to-do" list for their coursework.

I don't begin to think I'll take down an entire cell, but if I can break one of the teams of 2-3 guys assigned to my mall door/hotel wing/park entrance, then I can get out and get my friends/family out.  Yeah, a pistol against assault rifles and possibly "shock and awe" explosives isn't the best odds in the world. 

But half a dozen people with pistols inside that Mumbai hotel might have changed the outcome quite a bit.

[Jamisjockey]

If you can shoot a pistol well, don't rule it out as a decent defensive or offensive weapon.  Of course, this is part of why I mostly carry full sized now, with two spare mags, especially when I'm in a location such as a mall or airport lobby.

The 1911 is favored by Marine Expeditionary Unit (special operations capable) boarding parties for a reason.  Practice with your handgun, preferably a mid to service sized model, and you might stand a chance if the need arises.

[Jocassee]

If you can shoot a pistol well, don't rule it out as a decent defensive or offensive weapon.  Of course, this is part of why I mostly carry full sized now, with two spare mags, especially when I'm in a location such as a mall or airport lobby.

The 1911 is favored by Marine Expeditionary Unit (special operations capable) boarding parties for a reason.  Practice with your handgun, preferably a mid to service sized model, and you might stand a chance if the need arises.

Gonna put in an obligatory plug for the Tokarev here. Definitely an "offensive" pistol. The drawbacks of carrying it daily have been discussed but it makes an excellent car or truck pistol. And ammo has never been cheaper. Right now it's about 7cents per round SHIPPED. Those kinds of prices have let me put close to 2k downrange this year and get comfortable shooting silhouettes out to 100 yards or more.

[roo_ster]

If you can shoot a pistol well, don't rule it out as a decent defensive or offensive weapon.  Of course, this is part of why I mostly carry full sized now, with two spare mags, especially when I'm in a location such as a mall or airport lobby.

The 1911 is favored by Marine Expeditionary Unit (special operations capable) boarding parties for a reason.  Practice with your handgun, preferably a mid to service sized model, and you might stand a chance if the need arises.

Yep.  I recall reading some of Cooper's writing about when he was training the bodyguards of some potentate.  He was able to get his 1911-trained students to put lead on target faster than the sub-gun armed bodyguards.

Within your effective range, the 1911 is as fast-shooting as about anything else.  Only exception I'd make would be for a shotgunner with plenty of wing shooting under his belt.

FTR, my preferred CCW is a full-sized 1911 in .45ACP.

[AZRedhawk44]

Yep, I carry a full-size.  XD9.  18+1 with the MecGar aftermarket mags.  MagTech Guardian Gold hollowpoints.  Spare 18rd mag.

And I train as often as I can.  Steel matches, defensive classes.

But, those guys train also.  And build offensive operational contingencies based upon claiming and holding territory.  They do recon and visit the site ahead of time, confirming chokepoints and potential cover.

Then there's the local overninja'ed Barney Fifes.   Likely to shoot a lone CCW permitee in the midst of it all.

It's a LOT to overcome, being just me.  Daunting.

It doesn't make me afraid for my life when I leave home or anything, or stop me from enjoying life, but it makes me... concerned... for my initial, decisive capability to knock down 1-3 threats as fast as possible and dominate a room/corridor/walkway/courtyard, and then pacify/assure/calm the locals in a way that doesn't get me shot in turn.  I know how I train in karate, I know how I train with guns.  Once I decide to shoot something, it's getting shot when I draw and it's going to continue to be shot until it is a non-threat.

And if they get trained to that proficiency... if they get past the "I hate westerners" group hatefest and really train well, they'll have that same mentality to stopping a threat.

I'm curious as to exactly how well they COULD be trained.  They're "the enemy" and the temptation is to dehumanize them as well as consider them stupid and inept.

Where do they go to get training, and of what quality is that training?  Is it mostly just muscle/endurance conditioning, and basic weapons familiarity, or is it more advanced CQB tactics and weapons operation in close quarters?  How many rounds does the typical Islamofascist operator send downrange in his training, and under what conditions and coaching?

[Jamisjockey]

Even if we as a society suddenly realized that terrorists were scarier than an armed citizenry, and it was fully legal and acepted to walk around with a loaded and slung EBR everywhere, I'd still carry the handgun only.

Where do they go to get training, and of what quality is that training?  Is it mostly just muscle/endurance conditioning, and basic weapons familiarity, or is it more advanced CQB tactics and weapons operation in close quarters?  How many rounds does the typical Islamofascist operator send downrange in his training, and under what conditions and coaching?

Most reports from the sandboxes are that the average Tali/Alqueda/insurgent gets dead pretty quick when they try to duke it out with our troops.  That said, IMHO they don't even have to be trained that well to create quite a mess in a terrorism setting. 
Place gunmen at one end of the mall.  Start another group at the other end, shooting and pushing the frightened crowd towards the stationary gunmen.
Start shooting up a mall.  Stake out the nearest major intersections where the police response would come from.  Start shooting up the cops when they arrive.

I've got only a few years of military under my belt.  Non combat role.  I didn't do anything extra special badass.  I'm fairly certain with a little time I could easily take a group of people who hate another group, whip them up further, train them to do very bad things, and send them forth. 

[AZRedhawk44]

I've got only a few years of military under my belt.  Non combat role.  I didn't do anything extra special badass.  I'm fairly certain with a little time I could easily take a group of people who hate another group, whip them up further, train them to do very bad things, and send them forth. 

OK, now take "you" as the terrorist, and an equal "you", enjoying an afternoon at the mall with the family.

Evil you pre-positions folks to the best of his ability to kill as many as possible in the mall, and also to delay effective police response as well.  Evil you uses as much nastiness as he knows how to do.  That might include improvised explosives from various materials.  Or, it might not.  Depends on how crafty/hateful/inventive Evil you can get.

"Good you" has to react, but he's spent all day feeding his high heel fetish with Wifey McMoneyBags, and threatening to buy her something slinky at Fredericks.  You weren't "polite, professional and had a plan to kill everyone you met."  You're playing catch-up.  Sure, you were slightly "code yellow" and on the watch for purse snatchers or just suspicious people in general, but you don't go around in the habit of looking for enfilade chokepoints for light machine gun fire and planning how to outmaneuver such a location, or scouting alternate routes to leave the mall property undetected.

Setting aside 4 volumes of Bruce Willis badazz theatrics, you're equipped with one person you trust (Wifey McMB), your pistol, and a pair of shoes (more than Bruce had).  The only slight advantage you have is that you weren't one of the first few people shot and your brain is working overtime to try and catch up to the situation, now.  You're a reasonably competent adversary that's only interested in getting his family out, behind the curve but capable of catching up.

How do you catch up?

Can you have a reasonable expectation of catching up?

[stevelyn]

How do you catch up?

Can you have a reasonable expectation of catching up?
 

I don't think you have much of a chance taking on even a minimally trained group by yourself.

I think you have two choices:

1) Bunker up under defensible cover and hope that after you cap the first one that approaches your position, the bad guys move onto easier prey.

2) A fighting retreat to get the hell out of there.

Choices are going to be determined by your location in relation to the bad guys.

[De Selby]

Pakistan/India is a war zone in many parts - the training, organisation, and cohesion isn't present for Al Qaeda or anyone else to pull this off here in the U.S.  They only barely pulled off 9/11, and were close to detection at many points in the process.

[Monkeyleg]

It seems like a simpler operation than hijacking four airliners in less than two hours and crashing them into buildings in two major cities.

[AZRedhawk44]

I don't think you have much of a chance taking on even a minimally trained group by yourself.

I think you have two choices:

1) Bunker up under defensible cover and hope that after you cap the first one that approaches your position, the bad guys move onto easier prey.

2) A fighting retreat to get the hell out of there.

But, you're fighting someone equally competent as you are.

An aside:  Something's been irking me about most gun forum folks, recently.  Seems the average gun forum frequenter at TFL and such has a budget is about $600 for a gun, $20 for a cheap-*expletive deleted*ss "gun bucket" holster that fits (poorly), and $100 for ammo for the new gun.  Then it's time to start saving another $600 so he can buy the next thing on the front cover of Guns & Ammo next month.

There isn't:
-$500 for ammo
-$100-$200 for range fees for the next 6 months to a year
-$250 for a couple training classes
-$100 for a GOOD holster or two
-$150 for more magazines and a mag carrier
-another $500 for ammo

I think most of us on this forum are past the gun-wooby phase (or never got into it in the first place) and know how to use our firearms with proficiency that meets or exceeds most law enforcement, military or competitive shooter requirements to be considered "proficient."

Consider an enemy, or a dozen to twenty enemies, at that same level.  Who have trained to that proficiency.  It isn't that hard to get there.  They aren't obsessing over the "grip angle" of one gun over another or the MOA difference between an AK and an AR.  They just get whatever works, spend $1000 on ammo and get a fanatic with extensive combat experience to train the cell out in the woods or desert.  That know they can pick up secondhand body armor at gun shows for pennies on the dollar, and some creative tailoring can make a vest that won't break the bank and will probably work for several hits.  They know how to use primitive $25 microcontrollers, household chemicals and 9v batteries to make 20oz soda bottles into bombs, and deploy them in the garbage cans around the mall or other theoretical target.  That know they can repeatedly recon the facility, strolling down service hallways and learning the building INTIMATELY with little fear of actual reprisal, since no one stands up to trespassers or random folks wandering around where they shouldn't be.  They know they can park vehicles in a way that block the alternate service or fire escapes of a building.

They REALLY plan this out.

You can't just "pick off one or two of them" because they aren't any more likely to be picked off than you are.

If you hole up in a store and are known to be a threat, they'll gladly throw mustard or ricin gas into the store to flush you out, or just use a molotov to set the clothing store on fire.  Or, they'll use flashbangs and an assault.  I know I can find flashbangs to buy.  I'm sure other folks can, too.  They don't want to live through it, they just want to kill as many Americans as possible.  Your "success" in fighting them off would be an affront to their dignity and would represent a loss to them.  They would pour more resources into your situation than most others, knowing that your melted pistol clutched in your charred skeleton would be a symbol of conquest to their followers.

If YOU were to assault a large public facility like a mall, you would expect at least half a dozen concealed weapons holders and/or cops to be there, right?

So,

1) gets you burned.

2) gets you cornered if the service exits are blocked, or herded to the killing zones if you head to the main exits.

Sit down and REALLY THINK how you might take 10-20 guys and massacre a public attraction.
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Now... how do you survive it?

It's like playing chess against yourself, but giving your "opponent you" a two move head start.

[AJ Dual]

It seems like a simpler operation than hijacking four airliners in less than two hours and crashing them into buildings in two major cities.

I've thought this too for a long time. However I think I may have had an insight as to why it hasn't happened yet.

It seems that way to us, but imagine yourself having to go to a foreign country where you may not speak the dominant language, and do not match the dominant race/ethnicity of it's people. Just pick some country out of a hat, in Africa or Asia...

Now you have to go there, procure guns and explosives, and shoot the place up.

Seems "easy" from the inside looking out, but probably more daunting from their perspective.

The Mumbai attacks, or the Chechen-related nastiness in the former Soviet Union's A.O. is somewhat closer to merely having to go over the border and do this in Canada. Still daunting, but you at least pass just walking down the street, and people of your basic look and broad cultural mannerisms are common.

We may think, "Hell, I see foreign people from XYZ all the time and don't think a thing about it.." but it does not probably seem that way to them. If your job was to go shoot up a mall in China, you're probably worried you stick out like a sore thumb, and how many westerners they see all day is not playing into it, even if you have the training.

One basic way it's not as "easy" as it sometimes seems, IMO. Which is why the lone actor "sudden onset jihad"-syndrome is what we've been seeing stateside, people born and raised here, but with an ax to grind. And why the action has been a bit more targeted, Maj. Hassan disliking both the Army and the U.S. or recruiting stations, etc. The El-Al counter, or a university where they were a student and drove into a crowd.

I think finding a crew of sufficiently dissafected native jihadis to shoot up a mall that does not particularly offend them personally, is the bottleneck here.

[Jamisjockey]

I don't think you have much of a chance taking on even a minimally trained group by yourself.

I think you have two choices:

1) Bunker up under defensible cover and hope that after you cap the first one that approaches your position, the bad guys move onto easier prey.

2) A fighting retreat to get the hell out of there.

Choices are going to be determined by your location in relation to the bad guys.

This. 

Same scenerio for pretty much any active shooter in a public place.  And actually, the exact same procedure if I'm armed or not.
First plan is to unass the AO.  If I'm unarmed, something that will make some kind of weapon/distraction device.  (Fire extinguisher is first on the list.) 
Most malls have exits through the stores that back to the outside of the mall.  All malls have numerous exits spaced about every dozen stores or so.  Airports are more problematic.  Not getting shot is a much higher priority there, as Airports have much more armed security on premises.  Public fairs and what not, will just have to be assessed as it happens.

One basic way it's not as "easy" as it sometimes seems, IMO. Which is why the lone actor "sudden onset jihad"-syndrome is what we've been seeing stateside, people born and raised here, but with an ax to grind. And why the action has been a bit more targeted, Maj. Hassan disliking both the Army and the U.S. or recruiting stations, etc. The El-Al counter, or a university where they were a student and drove into a crowd.

I think finding a crew of sufficiently dissafected native jihadis to shoot up a mall that does not particularly offend them personally, is the bottleneck here.

It will only be a matter of time before that "native" puts together a native cell, or is put in contact with someone leading a cell to help equip them. 

[AJ Dual]

Yes, I agree. It's a matter of time.

However, I think what I outlined above has been a major filter to date as to why it's been more time than many of us thought.

[Tallpine]

If I'm unarmed, something that will make some kind of weapon/distraction device.

Look around and see if you can find something with which to fashion some sort of rudimentary lathe. 


Seriously, the best strategy is to avoid places like malls altogether.

And I'm way more concerned about the terrorists in the District of Criminals than the ones over the seas. 

[Jamisjockey]

But, you're fighting someone equally competent as you are.
If YOU were to assault a large public facility like a mall, you would expect at least half a dozen concealed weapons holders and/or cops to be there, right?

So,

1) gets you burned.

2) gets you cornered if the service exits are blocked, or herded to the killing zones if you head to the main exits.

Sit down and REALLY THINK how you might take 10-20 guys and massacre a public attraction.
.
Now... how do you survive it?

It's like playing chess against yourself, but giving your "opponent you" a two move head start.

Much of how you spelled out the scenerio is exactly how I would plan it.  
The upside to most modern shopping malls and simliar facilities is the sheer numbers of exits.  Almost every ground level store on the building perimiter has an exit.  
IMHO, any active shooter scenerio passes "normal criminal".  I will treat it as a combat situation.  Obviously, you can only strut around the mall with so much ammunition.  I don't have enough in my day to day load out to sling covering or suppressive fire at a bad guy.  But I may be less than judicious in the application of force and firepower to finding a way out of a situation.  There are no warnings, deadly force should be applied immediately when necessary and swiftly.  
Move away from the gun fire and then try to find a lateral solution to leaving the kill zone.  If I'm forced into a corner where there is no escape, I may have to attempt to fight my way through the kill zone.  
Running is the first and best solution.  Most people will run for the main exits.  This is where any kill boxes will be set up.  Smaller side exits will draw less attention and will be less likely to be blocked.  Anchor stores in a mall setting usually have numerous exits.
Never ever ever be in condition white.  It sucks to be paranoid all the time, but I guess its better than dying.  When you arrive in a public place, take note of your surroundings immediately.  On your way in, look for alternate exits.  Look for people and things that don't belong.  At a mall or amusement park, I always grab one of the little free maps they give out if they have them.  Of course, I'm in condition yellow for the average thug, gang, or non defensive situation such as a fire or other incident.  But you can never discount the possiblity of someone taking over said public place to mass murder and make a political or social statement.

I don't think they will care about CHL holders directly as a threat to conducting an attack.  A lightly armored bad guy with an assault rifle and hundreds of rounds of ammuntion is not going to consider that a particular threat.  The objective would be to kill as many infidels as possible, and create a media frenzy and circus that lasts as long as possible.  Fear and attention.

Also, this thread isn't really political, I'm gonna move it to RT.

[Jamisjockey]

Look around and see if you can find something with which to fashion some sort of rudimentary lathe.     
FTFY
Seriously, the best strategy is to avoid places like malls altogether.

And I'm way more concerned about the terrorists in the District of Criminals than the ones over the seas. 

Just because I'm aware of and have made a mental plan for what could happen in a public place doesn't mean that I'm necessarily afraid it will happen.  I won't stop living my life because some islamofacisits or maybe some pissed off teenagers think that killing a bunch of people somewhere is the best way to make a statement.
I'm certainly more likely to die in a car crash.  Thats why I wear a seatbelt. 

[Monkeyleg]

AJ, I would think that the 9/11 hijackers probably felt conspicuous as well, especially the one who took flying lessons, but didn't care about learning to land.

Procuring guns and explosives wouldn't be that difficult, depending upon how exotic the explosives.

I still think it's very possible to do.

[MicroBalrog]

According to the confession of the surviving Mumbai terrorist, he and his compatriots received 4 months of training. I am sure most people on this forum are better.

[Jamisjockey]

According to the confession of the surviving Mumbai terrorist, he and his compatriots received 4 months of training. I am sure most people on this forum are better.

4 months of non stop training?  I wouldn't say that most people on this forum are better. 

[AZRedhawk44]

4 months training sounds like a double-dose of Army Boot Camp to me.

Considering that most AQ operatives are intended to be suicide attackers, I'd expect a LOT of the 4 months to include large doses of carefully crafted GroupThink and structured "prayer." 

I see massive differences in my times when I hold off a month between shooting matches.  If these guys train for 4 months and then don't train for 2 years as they get situated in their target areas, they can't be that good.  Of course, they can attend the range or join 3-gun or pistol leagues just like anyone else can though, and keep sharp that way.

[MicroBalrog]

4 months of non stop training?  I wouldn't say that most people on this forum are better. 

The methods and quality matter as much as the amount.

[Jamisjockey]

AZ makes a good point.  Down time after training can certainly impact skill retention.

The methods and quality matter as much as the amount.

As a Marine I was trained to do alot of different things. Ambushes, patrolling, room clearing, defensive operations. 
Four months to train someone to do one particular skill won't take that high of a quality if the dedication to the end game is there.  They made a nasty impression in India afterall.

[AJ Dual]

So did the Indian authorities milling about with ancient SMLE's and their thumbs up their curry scented...