Author Topic: national reciprocity ... maybe ( taken from calguns.net)  (Read 4625 times)

gunsmith

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national reciprocity ... maybe ( taken from calguns.net)
« on: September 14, 2011, 05:57:38 PM »
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Default HR 822 (2011) Stearns - National Reciprocity - It Begins
Just got off the phone with Representative Cliff Stearn's office (Florida's Sixth) about H.R. 822 :


"To amend title 18, United States Code, to provide a national standard in accordance with which nonresidents of a State may carry concealed firearms in the State."

This is the National Reciprocity Bill we have been waiting for. It is the House version of the Thune Amendment. This action is coordinated with Senator Thune.

Text is not available, but here are some details:

    Provides National Reciprocity for people that have permits from their home state
    DOES NOT extend carry privileges to those who live in no-issue or may-issue states. We must still fight the good fight in the courts.
    Requires that a state recognize a valid out-of-state permit at the equivalent level of their highest, or unrestricted, permit given to their own citizens.
    While it preempts the obvious state laws, it in no way attempts to override local regulations regarding the manner, wear or carry of a weapon. So if it is illegal to bear arms in a restaurant with a bar in a North Carolina, you will not be exempt from these rules because you are from out of state. You need to know the rules where you carry.
    There is a severability clause. If any portion is struck down, the remaining portions survive.
    You will need to have a valid state ID with your permit when you carry.


There are some minor differences between the Senate and House versions right now, mainly having to do with some definitions and terms. The key points are in agreement.

Also, the question of what to do with Vermont: Vermont does not offer permits to their residents. They are Constitutional Carry. There is no answer yet. They are working it.

In terms of timing and approach, there are several options on the table. They are working them all and are serious about getting this through the sausage factory in a format that the president will sign. I'll respect their process and leave it at that.

My Thoughts:

There are bound to be some disappointed people in Maryland, California and elsewhere over this simply because it does not extend permits our way. That would be a step too far for the legislation right now - remember that there is no recognized right to bear arms in public right now. That is what all these cases we discuss (Woollard, Palmer, Richards, etc.) are doing: establishing that jurisprudence. This law will eventually apply to us.

In the meantime, it is important to recognize what this does in May-Issue states. Virginia permit holders will have unrestricted carry permits in Maryland. Read that again.

This helps all of us. It proves that lawfully armed citizens are not going to destroy the state. It will increase pressure on our politicians when it is demonstrated that the "blood on the streets" predictions are hollow. The simple fact is that the people of Virginia will have greater access to their right in Maryland and California than their own residents. This will make a difference.

H/T to John at OnlyGunsAndMoney for originally breaking the story last night.
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Last edited by Librarian; 02-23-2011 at 7:58 PM.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: national reciprocity ... maybe ( taken from calguns.net)
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2011, 06:35:45 PM »
Just say no to national reciprocity, as mandated by ANYTHING Federal.

Just watch it get abused.

A fella is open-carrying, as is legal in his State.  Fibbies descend upon him and charge him for violation of this stoopid bill, because the bill doesn't mention OC, and the guy doesn't have a permit to carry anyways.

Nope.

I'm not interested in USC gaining 1 more letter of code.

Let's try stripping out a few thousand lines of code, instead.

Not interested in the least.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: national reciprocity ... maybe ( taken from calguns.net)
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2011, 06:38:54 PM »
One more post, just to say:

Instead of futzing with GUNS, let's try and enforce that "full faith and credit" clause of that Constitution thingy. 

Howabout just a little drop of USC that says "Oh, by the way.  All licenses and permits granted in one State are valid in all States, in accordance with COTUS."

Don't mention guns.  Just re-affirm that smelly old piece of paper in a piece of USC dated 2011.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

AZRedhawk44

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Re: national reciprocity ... maybe ( taken from calguns.net)
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2011, 06:47:39 PM »
Yet another post, to point out:

What about States that like to force you to carry a particular weapon based upon what you test with at the CCW exam?  Other States make no such distinction, but that State's "highest unrestricted" permit requires that knowledge and certification upon the carry ID.

What about States that have owner gun registration requirements, or "safe gun" lists administered by their State DOJ?  An AZ resident visiting CA with a CCW would legally work under portions of this bill, but only if he had a gun that passed their silly drop-test and was on the CA DOJ approved list... and would still have to enter into a registration database with CA... which is actually unconstitutional (mandatory registration) according to the AZ Constitution.

This is a whole big bucket of deep-fried extra crispy stoopid. ;/

Full faith and credit.  That's all you need.

Quit treatin' guns as anything more special than driver's licenses or contractor certifications.


ETA:  3 posts back to back!  I must have caught something from csd. =D
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

geronimotwo

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Re: national reciprocity ... maybe ( taken from calguns.net)
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2011, 07:08:09 PM »
i would love to carry across state lines.  NY is one of the few states that will not recognize any other states permit, thus they will not recognize ours.  it is a real PITA, as anytime i go out of state i need to leave my gun at home.  i agree that the 2nd amendment should be all that i need , but for the time being i would take this as a win.
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gunsmith

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Re: national reciprocity ... maybe ( taken from calguns.net)
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2011, 10:54:31 PM »
i would love to carry across state lines.  NY is one of the few states that will not recognize any other states permit, thus they will not recognize ours.  it is a real PITA, as anytime i go out of state i need to leave my gun at home.  i agree that the 2nd amendment should be all that i need , but for the time being i would take this as a win.

me too
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: national reciprocity ... maybe ( taken from calguns.net)
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2011, 05:37:14 PM »
AZ,

YOu're searching too hard for potential problems that are not present in the bill as proposed.

First off, when do Fibbies enforce state gun laws?  The answer is never, unless they are in the process of a Federal investigation at the same time.  This bill doens't change that.

Second, the Feds in any state with legal OC are already aware it's legal.  This bill does nothing to affect any state laws on OC at all, and not even CC in any negative way.

This bill has zero effect on Federal law or law enforcement; it's only possible effect, as currently written, is to affect how state and local law enforcement, in states that don't currently have existing reciprocity with a given state, treat carriers from that state under state law.

For instance, it won't have any effect in AZ and AK or Vermont (and I think WY), as we already in practice allow unlimited carry rights to all American citizens, permitted or not. 
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

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geronimotwo

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Re: national reciprocity ... maybe ( taken from calguns.net)
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2011, 09:16:48 PM »
i do like az's logic that we need to remove the laws making it illegal, rather than making a new law to counteract those laws for specific instances.
make the world idiot proof.....and you will have a world full of idiots. -g2

Matthew Carberry

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Re: national reciprocity ... maybe ( taken from calguns.net)
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2011, 09:40:59 PM »
i do like az's logic that we need to remove the laws making it illegal, rather than making a new law to counteract those laws for specific instances.

I don't disagree,but that won't happen now, if ever.

This is an incremental improvement possible now.
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

gunsmith

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Re: national reciprocity ... maybe ( taken from calguns.net)
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2011, 02:07:02 AM »
I want to visit family in NYC/NY State & New Jersey, If I cant open carry like I can here that's fine I just want to carry. I'm sure I can avoid places where I possibly couldn't carry bars/Churches wherever.

If my DL is OK in NY why cant my LTC?
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

geronimotwo

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Re: national reciprocity ... maybe ( taken from calguns.net)
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2011, 08:44:05 PM »
and then there is NYC.  i have an unrestricted carry license which is granted by my county for the entire state of NY, unless i go to the 5 burrows.  i am not sure why their NY penal law section 400 differs from ours.  i would think "same state, same laws", but no.
make the world idiot proof.....and you will have a world full of idiots. -g2