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Author Topic: Social Conservatives ForTheWin  (Read 4750 times)
fistful
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« on: February 20, 2012, 10:12:20 AM »

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204880404577227694132901090.html

A review of a new book about how often social conservatism has won elections in the past fifty years. Some of us here have been trying to point this out for a while.
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"The Constitution at this moment stands violated. If the breach be effectually repaired the people will return to tranquillity of themselves. If not, let discord reign forever!"  --  William Pitt, Earl of Chatham,
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« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2012, 11:00:24 AM »

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204880404577227694132901090.html

A review of a new book about how often social conservatism has won elections in the past fifty years. Some of us here have been trying to point this out for a while.

If they liked freedom, that would matter.
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« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2012, 11:07:01 AM »

If they liked freedom, that would matter.

Hurp durp.
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« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2012, 12:40:15 PM »


I'm all for social conservatives, as long as they don't spend metric tons of money, stay within the limits authorized by the Constitution and leave my personal business to myself.

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Fitz
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« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2012, 12:44:17 PM »

I'm all for social conservatives, as long as they don't spend metric tons of money, stay within the limits authorized by the Constitution and leave my personal business to myself.



OH LOOK, A UNICORN!

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Fitz



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« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2012, 12:50:09 PM »

OH LOOK, A UNICORN!



That's a homo symbol of queer culture trying to twist our children's minds.  Why, next thing you know, they'll be watching Rocky Horror Picture Show and throwing rice at the screen! [/social conservative]

Chris
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« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2012, 12:51:04 PM »

Ok, serious question here. Fiscal/economic conservativism is a fairly well defined range of beliefs. Less .gov interference in commerce, lower taxes, less spending.

What is the definition of a "social conservative"? What issues are the defining points of the movement, and what are the range of positions taken by people who are generally considered to fall under that label? It's a term I hear a lot but don't necessarily know what it means.
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« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2012, 12:53:30 PM »

Ok, serious question here. Fiscal/economic conservativism is a fairly well defined range of beliefs. Less .gov interference in commerce, lower taxes, less spending.

What is the definition of a "social conservative"? What issues are the defining points of the movement, and what are the range of positions taken by people who are generally considered to fall under that label? It's a term I hear a lot but don't necessarily know what it means.

Depends heavily on who you ask. Social conservatism tends to be at odds with fiscal conservatism in a lot of ways. The War on Some Drugs (tm) being one of them.
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Fitz



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« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2012, 01:04:11 PM »

To me, they're just the other side of the same statist coin that gives us liberals who are in love with the govt's gun.  They just have a different list of things they hate.  Fiscal conservatism and the Constitution are merely incidental to their cause and gladly abandoned "for the greater good".

Chris
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« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2012, 01:04:47 PM »

Depends heavily on who you ask. Social conservatism tends to be at odds with fiscal conservatism in a lot of ways. The War on Some Drugs (tm) being one of them.

I'll give you the War on Drugs. What other ways does social conservatism conflict with fiscal conservatism?
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« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2012, 01:06:20 PM »

I'll give you the War on Drugs. What other ways does social conservatism conflict with fiscal conservatism?

How much money do you suppose has been spent on "Defense of marriage," enforcement of prostitution/pornography laws, etc?
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« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2012, 01:16:48 PM »

How much money do you suppose has been spent on "Defense of marriage," enforcement of prostitution/pornography laws, etc?

Compared to other spending? Not much. You said "a lot of ways," so I was expecting a little more.

For the record, I'm all for decriminalizing prostitution and drugs. I do not believe we should write irrational marriage into law, in hopes that it will save money. Let's have laws that are in touch with reality.

And, last I knew, Ron Paul is a social conservative. Just sayin'.
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« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2012, 01:24:54 PM »

there's a lot about ron paul that I do not agree with, however I still believe he is the best choice for addressing the problems that are really threatening our country .

if congress debates something , lots of money is being spent in their salaries alone, that's what I was getting at .

therefore, keeping government out of my private life is a fiscally conservative point of view . considering how much members of congress babe, how much money do you suppose is spent everytime they tried to concern themselves with what I do in my bedroom , what I ingest.  who I screwed, how I screwed them , or whether or not my legal marriage in 1 state is valid in any other ?


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« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2012, 02:08:46 PM »

A social conservative is just that - a social conservative. A person with a traditional view on moral issues. That doesn't mean they want to legislate on those things. The point is, when you alienate them, you get big-govt leftists who are more likely to legislate on social issues anyway.
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« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2012, 02:53:42 PM »

A social conservative is just that - a social conservative. A person with a traditional view on moral issues. That doesn't mean they want to legislate on those things. The point is, when you alienate them, you get big-govt leftists who are more likely to legislate on social issues anyway.

Amen!

I'm about as libertarian in thinking as you can get.

Here in NV we have legal prostitution and so far marriage has survived, though before I ever support gay marriage with a vote I want national reciprocity & an end to the NFA.

I really am unconcerned with whatever gay/bi people call their relationships-none of my business I figure-but until they get behind my 2A rights They aint getting my vote.

I am against abortion however, even as a punker/hippie anarchist liberal agnostic I was against it, now that I'm "conservative" I still am. 

100% for total drug legalization, sick and tired of the war on rights disguised as a drug war.

YET I always seem to vote with the social conservatives
even though, I guess technically, I'm not one, when they get attacked in the/by the media/gov't industrial complex it angers me-so they end up with my vote.
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« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2012, 03:05:26 PM »

A social conservative is just that - a social conservative. A person with a traditional view on moral issues. That doesn't mean they want to legislate on those things. The point is, when you alienate them, you get big-govt leftists who are more likely to legislate on social issues anyway.

I getcha, and agree.
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Fitz



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« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2012, 03:52:13 PM »

A social conservative is just that - a social conservative. A person with a traditional view on moral issues. That doesn't mean they want to legislate on those things. The point is, when you alienate them, you get big-govt leftists who are more likely to legislate on social issues anyway.

Problem: the government controls the schools. If elected, social conservatives control the government. At which point their viewpoints proliferate through the schools.

Problem: the logic seems to be that not only should social conservatives have a place in a Republican coalition, but that libertarians belong in the back of the bus entirely.
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« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2012, 04:09:13 PM »

Problem: the government controls the schools. If elected, social conservatives control the government. At which point their viewpoints proliferate through the schools.

There have always been social conservatives in our government, to one extent or another. Ron Paul, for instance. Yet the schools have been, if anything, moving further to the left. It does not work quite as simply as you suggest. This is not France.

And how would socially conservative ideas in the schools be a problem? Because you disagree with them?


Quote
Problem: the logic seems to be that not only should social conservatives have a place in a Republican coalition, but that libertarians belong in the back of the bus entirely.

Whose logic?
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« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2012, 04:14:15 PM »

There have always been social conservatives in our government, to one extent or another. Ron Paul, for instance. Yet the schools have been, if anything, moving further to the left. It does not work quite as simply as you suggest. This is not France.

AFAIK, Ron Paul's only real social conservative position is being anti-abortion. All other points of intersection with his beliefs and those of social conservatives are fiscal rather than social in nature.
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« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2012, 04:41:28 PM »

AFAIK, Ron Paul's only real social conservative position is being anti-abortion. All other points of intersection with his beliefs and those of social conservatives are fiscal rather than social in nature.

Um, Obamacare, welfare programs and other social spending? Education? His views on how to deal with homosexual marriage are different from most social conservatives, but so far as I can tell he is opposed to it.

And some stuff from RonPaul2012.com:

Quote
While serving in Congress during the late 1970s and early 1980s....He was an unwavering advocate of pro-life and pro-family values.
  link

http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/homeschooling/
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« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2012, 04:47:21 PM »

And how would socially conservative ideas in the schools be a problem? Because you disagree with them?

That is not enough?

Given how I have to pay for it, I feel this to be sufficient grounds for criticism.

Quote
Whose logic?


The prevailing logic of conservative hosts, sites, etc.

We both know Ron Paul isn't a typical social conservative, right?
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"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner
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« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2012, 06:41:45 PM »

Um, Obamacare, welfare programs and other social spending? Education? His views on how to deal with homosexual marriage are different from most social conservatives, but so far as I can tell he is opposed to it.

And some stuff from RonPaul2012.com:
  link

http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/homeschooling/

Those are all FISCALLY conservative positions, not social. Some social conservatives also hold fiscal conservative values, but many don't. See: George Bush, many African Americans, etc. And last time I checked Paul is not an opponent of gay marriage.
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« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2012, 07:10:32 PM »

That is not enough?

Given how I have to pay for it, I feel this to be sufficient grounds for criticism.

Then your problem is with government influence in education, obviously. If you want to defund, decentralize, or abolish public schools, social conservatives would be a good ally.


Quote
The prevailing logic of conservative hosts, sites, etc.

Such as? 


Quote
We both know Ron Paul isn't a typical social conservative, right?

Is he a typical anything? That's the point. We need to stop thinking that social conservatives are some type. We are not all Ned Flanders, any more than Ron Paul fans are all Chewbacca.
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« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2012, 07:16:16 PM »

Those are all FISCALLY conservative positions, not social. Some social conservatives also hold fiscal conservative values, but many don't. See: George Bush, many African Americans, etc. And last time I checked Paul is not an opponent of gay marriage.

Education, welfare, healthcare; not social issues? How so?

Ron Paul's views on marriage. It's complicated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ron_Paul#Same-sex_marriage

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« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2012, 07:37:21 PM »

There are certain social, cultural, and moral predicates that make free market capitalism and fiscal sobriety possible.  Among those are the moral enlightenment to be trustworthy in one's dealings, of all kinds, to maintain commitments regardless of temptations, and the will to defer immediate gratification in order to have a stable social order and to amass savings/capital.  There is no hard divide between social and economic conservatism.  The pervasive laxity--the willingness to cut corners and think short-term--of the last half-century has markedly undercut our economic fiber.
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