Author Topic: Social Conservatives ForTheWin  (Read 35108 times)

Ron

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,881
  • Like a tree planted by the rivers of water
    • What I believe ...
Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #100 on: February 24, 2012, 08:11:33 AM »
Quote
The problem the pro-abortion advocates have with ultrasound is not that it occurs (since that already happens).  The problem they have is if the mother sees(1) the reality of the child growing in them, a good number have a change of heart and do not kill their child.  Fewer abortions make hedonists, eugenicists, and malevolent misanthropes unhappy and lose profits for abortionists & Planned Parenthood.

QFT

I also find it instructive how the mentioning of centuries of jurisprudence that has developed around marriage is completely ignored and some less than honorable motivation is insinuated.

Having said that, I also believe government should get out of the marriage business and have stated so many times in this forum over the years.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 08:27:59 AM by Ron »
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,600
Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #101 on: February 24, 2012, 08:13:52 AM »
The reason for that perceived inconsistency is that birth control high blood pressure pills is only necessary if one chooses to be sexually activesedentary and overweight.* It's much easier to make the argument that government should not subsidize an elective, but if you say that some poor person should do without diabetes meds, suddenly far fewer people agree with you.


/devils advocate

Also as Red Headed Stranger pointed out contraceptive (Not just the pill) are widely used to lesson the symptoms of menstruation, make the whole cycle more regular and less severe, or to do away with menstruation completely without having anything to do with the sex life of the woman taking them.  I have in fact seen them prescribed in those uses to very young (~13-14) virgins.

Ron

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,881
  • Like a tree planted by the rivers of water
    • What I believe ...
Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #102 on: February 24, 2012, 08:20:44 AM »
Once again, who is arguing for the prohibition of contraceptives?

Because a certain percentage of social conservatives are in a Christian denomination that frowns upon it we automatically leap to OMG!!! They want to make it illegal!!

There is some serious sloppy thinking going on, fighting against straw men and caricatures is apparently more fun than addressing the issues.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

red headed stranger

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,263
Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #103 on: February 24, 2012, 08:55:22 AM »
Only in the eyes of the sand-poundingly ignorant and/or aggressively dishonest.

See, even Planned Parenthood performs an ultrasound in the vast majority of abortions it provides.  Because it is the standard practice since ultrasound has become ubiquitous.

For your risible contention of "medically-performed rape" to remain true, Planned Parenthood, when it performs an ultrasound prior to performing an abortion, also is raping its clients.

The thing about the VA bill is that it is written in such a way that it virtually requires a transvaginal ultrasound rather than the standard non-penetrative ultrasound that is used in the vast majority of cases. This is tantamount to a government mandated invasive procedure.

In its current form, the bill would require a rape victim who is seeking to terminate their pregnancy have a probe placed in her vagina just weeks after her rape simply to satisfy a state mandate. 
Those who learn from history are doomed to watch others repeat it

red headed stranger

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,263
Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #104 on: February 24, 2012, 09:13:36 AM »
/devils advocate

Also as Red Headed Stranger pointed out contraceptive (Not just the pill) are widely used to lesson the symptoms of menstruation, make the whole cycle more regular and less severe, or to do away with menstruation completely without having anything to do with the sex life of the woman taking them.  I have in fact seen them prescribed in those uses to very young (~13-14) virgins.

To add to this, I would point out some versions of "the pill" are used to treat potentially life-threatening conditions such as ovarian cysts and endometriosis.  

Quote
Once again, who is arguing for the prohibition of contraceptives?

Because a certain percentage of social conservatives are in a Christian denomination that frowns upon it we automatically leap to OMG!!! They want to make it illegal!!

There is some serious sloppy thinking going on, fighting against straw men and caricatures is apparently more fun than addressing the issues.

Some of the "personhood" type bills that have popped up in some states would effectively ban some of the more common types of contraceptives.  

Moreover, I hope you can see that when a serious candidate for for the Presidency of the United States of America says:

Quote
(Contraception) is not okay because it's a license to do things in the sexual realm that is counter to how things are supposed to be.

people get nervous.  

If a candidate said that any other common, legal, behavior was "not OK and is counter to the way things are supposed to be" people would justifiably be up in arms about possible government intrusion into their life on the horizon.  
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 09:17:49 AM by red headed stranger »
Those who learn from history are doomed to watch others repeat it

Ron

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,881
  • Like a tree planted by the rivers of water
    • What I believe ...
Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #105 on: February 24, 2012, 09:27:11 AM »
I've read that quote from Santorum in context, in context he was saying he does not support government mandates for contraception and abortion being foisted upon insurance companies.

For the record I do not support Santorum for Prez and doubt he will get the nod anyway.

While I support the ultrasound laws I do not support requiring the invasive method as a mandate. It should be an option only. I can't see how mandating it will pass constitutional muster.

The line between a contraceptive and abortifacients is continually being blurred, purposely.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #106 on: February 24, 2012, 10:00:43 AM »
The thing about the VA bill is that it is written in such a way that it virtually requires a transvaginal ultrasound rather than the standard non-penetrative ultrasound that is used in the vast majority of cases. This is tantamount to a government mandated invasive procedure.

In its current form, the bill would require a rape victim who is seeking to terminate their pregnancy have a probe placed in her vagina just weeks after her rape simply to satisfy a state mandate. 

Horse.  Manure. 

The same procedure is used by the abortionists at that stage of gestation because that is what is required to better determine fetal age, ectopic pregnancy, any number of various conditions, and the safest method of abortion (for the mother).  See, I don't assume abortionists want to rape or kill the mother, just kill the child.  NOT performing such a procedure, using the appropriate equipment, at the appropriate (approximate) state of gestation raises the risk of the procedure and killing the mother.

Using the pro-abortion crowd's own data (that the majority of abortions are performed at the earliest state of gestation) and adding it to the data that Planned Parenthood (in trying to not kill the mother) performs an ultrasound ~95% of the time before an abortion means that Planned Parenthood is using that very procedure on most of those earlier abortions.

Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Ron

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,881
  • Like a tree planted by the rivers of water
    • What I believe ...
Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #107 on: February 24, 2012, 10:09:49 AM »
The social conservatives can just turn the argument of the womens health right back on them then.

If performing a transvaginal ultrasound is the standard insuring the safest outcome of the procedure then the question will be "Why do the abortion advocates want to endanger womens lives by denying them this potentially life saving procedure?"

Requiring an invasive procedure just doesn't sit well with me regardless. Doesn't disturb me as much as aborting a human being though.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,600
Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #108 on: February 24, 2012, 10:14:28 AM »
Once again, who is arguing for the prohibition of contraceptives?


Not me.  I thought the issue was fed paying for or subsidizing birth control.  The Fed pays for or subsidizes a crapload of medicine for a crapload of people.  Without getting into whether or not any of that should be happening in the first place, why single out contraceptives as the medicine we no longer pay for?  Despite the opinions of some Social Conservatives contraceptives are used for quite a bit more then allowing loose women consequence free sex.

I was half joking on the blood pressure thing, but seriously if we're talking about not spending .gov funds on meds I have to point out that the majority of medicare folks on blood pressure and diabetes meds are there after a lifetime of bad choices regarding diet and exercise.  Why are we subsidizing their bad choices?

From a purely fiscal standpoint if we mad contraceptives free (or mandated, hows that for .gov intrusion!) for all folks on medicaid we'd probably save money.

And since pretty much every thinking person agrees that abortions aren't an ideal solution to an unwanted pregnancy it seems a now brainer that low/no cost contraceptives will lower the number of abortions being performed, a worthwhile goal for society regardless of your stand on abortion.  So given that fed.gov will continue to provide medical care of some kind to lots of folks for the foreseeable future, why single out contraceptives to not be provided?

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #109 on: February 24, 2012, 11:12:38 AM »
The thing about the VA bill is that it is written in such a way that it virtually requires a transvaginal ultrasound rather than the standard non-penetrative ultrasound that is used in the vast majority of cases. This is tantamount to a government mandated invasive procedure.

In its current form, the bill would require a rape victim who is seeking to terminate their pregnancy have a probe placed in her vagina just weeks after her rape simply to satisfy a state mandate.  

You realize that the abortion requires multiple vaginal insertions, right? And as has been pointed out, virtually all abortions are prefaced with an ultra sound anyway. All the VA mandate does is make it required to offer to let the mother see it. That's all. The procedure is going to be done prior to the abortion anyway. All that's changing is that the mother is required to be offered the chance to become fully informed.


Oh, and fisty... My wife has pcos, which caused a lot of health issues including infertility. It required two years of (non-abortifacient) birth control use to remediate that. There are medical uses aside from contraception, and ironically if it weren't for birth control we'd have never had kids.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 11:17:34 AM by Balog »
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

red headed stranger

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,263
Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #110 on: February 24, 2012, 11:15:47 AM »
You realize that the abortion requires multiple vaginal insertions, right?

I guess that makes state mandated ones ok then.  After all, it's for her own good!  ;)

Those who learn from history are doomed to watch others repeat it

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #111 on: February 24, 2012, 11:18:29 AM »
I guess that makes state mandated vaginal insertions ok then.  After all, it's for her own good!  ;)



You're being deliberately obtuse. The ultrasound will happen, no matter what. All the law changes is requiring the provider to offer the mother the option to see the baby prior to destroying it.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

red headed stranger

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,263
Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #112 on: February 24, 2012, 12:05:01 PM »
You're being deliberately obtuse. The ultrasound will happen, no matter what. All the law changes is requiring the provider to offer the mother the option to see the baby prior to destroying it.

The law is micromanaging what goes on in a doctor's office.  Dictating the content and character of Dr/Patient interaction is not an appropriate role for government. 

Those who learn from history are doomed to watch others repeat it

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #113 on: February 24, 2012, 12:39:44 PM »
The law is micromanaging what goes on in a doctor's office.  Dictating the content and character of Dr/Patient interaction is not an appropriate role for government. 



Requiring people in a position of extreme trust to not mislead those in their care seems pretty reasonable to me. And it doesn't change the fact that the "zomg rape!" reporting is completely and objectively false.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #114 on: February 24, 2012, 12:46:06 PM »
Requiring people in a position of extreme trust to not mislead those in their care seems pretty reasonable to me. And it doesn't change the fact that the "zomg rape!" reporting is completely and objectively false.

I'd love to know what the actual percentage of rape cases result in pregnancy.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

red headed stranger

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,263
Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #115 on: February 24, 2012, 03:07:45 PM »
Requiring people in a position of extreme trust to not mislead those in their care seems pretty reasonable to me. And it doesn't change the fact that the "zomg rape!" reporting is completely and objectively false.

What kind of "misleading" have doctors been doing that requires such heavy-handed government intervention? Is there some epidemic of women saying they didn't know what they were getting into when they asked for an abortion? 

When conservatives state that they don't want government involved in health care decisions, they should be consistent instead of making exceptions for their own particular issues.  That is the kind of paternalism and inconsistency that gives some people pause. 

I'm not sure where you are going with the "zomg rape" comment. 
 
Those who learn from history are doomed to watch others repeat it

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #116 on: February 24, 2012, 03:39:52 PM »
What kind of "misleading" have doctors been doing that requires such heavy-handed government intervention? Is there some epidemic of women saying they didn't know what they were getting into when they asked for an abortion? 

When conservatives state that they don't want government involved in health care decisions, they should be consistent instead of making exceptions for their own particular issues.  That is the kind of paternalism and inconsistency that gives some people pause. 

I'm not sure where you are going with the "zomg rape" comment. 
 


I was referring to the lefties who claim a transvaginal ultrasound is equivalent to rape.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #117 on: February 24, 2012, 03:44:19 PM »
And the doctor's have been blatantly lying to their patients, claiming the fetus is "a ball of cells." Pro-abortion folks don't want this because they know that when women see that their child has a heartbeat, which will be stopped when the abortionist rips the tiny body into pieces, there is a good chance the woman won't go through with it. They oppose informed consent, because they realize that only lack of information enables many women to go through with the process. And give themselves lasting physical and psychological harm in the process.

I'm not aware of any conservatives who oppose laws against doctor's lying about both the what the actual medical procedure about to be performed is and what the lasting consequences of it are. The reason they need to single this procedure in particular out is because it's the one that doctor's are currently lying about in order to pad their bottom line.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,288
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #118 on: February 24, 2012, 04:56:33 PM »
"The Pill" is quite commonly used for other medical reasons besides contraception. 

Then it's not being used as birth control, so nothing I said would apply.



When conservatives state that they don't want government involved in health care decisions, they should be consistent instead of making exceptions for their own particular issues.  That is the kind of paternalism and inconsistency that gives some people pause. 

You're saying that we treat it differently than other "health care decisions," but we're not treating it as health care at all. Abortion is not a "particular issue," or a health care decision. Not to us anti-abortionists, anyway. We view it as murder; hence we demand government involvement.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,288
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #119 on: February 24, 2012, 05:28:36 PM »
Neither dispense nor stand in the way of. If those in government have some religious-based (or other) moral objection to implementation and use of birth control, up to and including "morning after" pills, they can either sit on their objections or get out of government and protest like any other civilian.

(Looking hard at Santorum as I say that...)

You're saying that anyone with a moral objection to birth control should recuse themselves from government positions? How do you arrive at that position? Why the issue of birth control? What other issues does this apply to, where people with certain moral views about that issue should not exercise their right to hold office? And what is it about birth control that makes it acceptable for them to agitate for their point of view as a citizen, but not while in office?

How do you think your position squares with the Constitution's prohibition on religious testing for government offices?


Quote
Quote
The reason for that perceived inconsistency is that birth control is only necessary if one chooses to be sexually active.* It's much easier to make the argument that government should not subsidize an elective, but if you say that some poor person should do without diabetes meds, suddenly far fewer people agree with you.

Given the very real physical and psychological health benefits of (healthy consensual) sexual activity, I would not actually regard it as quite so "elective" myself. YMM, perhaps, V. Why should we NOT make sex safer, more free of hazard and expense, given the capacity to do so? That's what humans do - we find ways to do new things, and new ways to do those things better. There's nothing wrong with having sex, at least consensually - why should we not make a healthy, natural activity better and more accessible?

Huh? My only point was to say that people don't die from a lack of birth control, so there's less support for government subsidizing of it. (As has been noted, some birth control meds have other uses, but we're talking about birth control prescribed as birth control.)


Quote
Or do rich people simply deserve to be able to have more sex than poor people? ;/  Neither my wife nor I want more kids than the two she already had - should we just not have sex, when humanity KNOWS how to deal with that particular issue?

Wow, what a leftist argument to make. Birth control is like most other things you buy with money - we deserve as much as we can legally get. I didn't say you shouldn't use birth control. We're just talking about who pays for it.


Quote
Lotta attitudes remain mired in the dark ages, so to speak.

No, they don't remain mired in the dark ages. You can't honestly believe that men, in general, are more eager than women are (in general) to have children. Right? You realize that all the positioning of abortion and contraception as feminist issues is a con job, right?
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

DittoHead

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,574
  • Writing for the Bulwark since August 2019
Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #120 on: February 24, 2012, 08:58:00 PM »
I can't believe people are defending a law that requires the murderer to show a picture of the victim to their parent before murdering them. I get that you have to take what you can get in politics but I also think you have to pick your battles. It seems like maybe it would be better to just focus on outlawing the murder part.
In the moral, catatonic stupor America finds itself in today it is only disagreement we seek, and the more virulent that disagreement, the better.