Author Topic: Social Conservatives ForTheWin  (Read 35092 times)

Regolith

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2012, 11:45:29 PM »
Education, welfare, healthcare; not social issues? How so?


Very briefly, fiscal issues are those that revolve around what services the government should provide and how they should be payed for.  Social issues revolve around what freedoms individuals should be allowed, and what role the government should have in enforcing morality (and what morals they should enforce).

So welfare, education and healthcare are all fiscal issues, because they're a matter of what services the government should provide, while gay marriage, gun control, abortion, etc. are social issues, because they involve the freedoms of individuals and whether or not to enforce a specific morality.

There is of course some gray areas, but that's always how I've seen the issues break down.

Libertarians, like Ron Paul, are generally socially liberal and fiscally conservative.

There are also some inconsistencies in how the major parties break down - while Democrats are generally socially and fiscally liberal, and Republicans are the opposite, both take stances on some issues that are opposite of how they normally view other issues. For instance, many liberals are anti-gun, despite that being a socially conservative position, while most conservatives take the exact opposite view, despite it technically being a socially liberal position.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 11:52:12 PM by Regolith »
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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2012, 01:52:45 AM »
it also seems to me that the socially conservative politicians are also usually the ones you can trust not to stab you in the back WRT gun rights.

( for the most part, Bush 41 & 43 were not personally great but gave us great Justices)
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2012, 09:13:24 AM »
Very briefly, fiscal issues are those that revolve around what services the government should provide and how they should be payed for.  Social issues revolve around what freedoms individuals should be allowed, and what role the government should have in enforcing morality (and what morals they should enforce).

So welfare, education and healthcare are all fiscal issues, because they're a matter of what services the government should provide, while gay marriage, gun control, abortion, etc. are social issues, because they involve the freedoms of individuals and whether or not to enforce a specific morality.

There is of course some gray areas, but that's always how I've seen the issues break down.

Libertarians, like Ron Paul, are generally socially liberal and fiscally conservative.

There are also some inconsistencies in how the major parties break down - while Democrats are generally socially and fiscally liberal, and Republicans are the opposite, both take stances on some issues that are opposite of how they normally view other issues. For instance, many liberals are anti-gun, despite that being a socially conservative position, while most conservatives take the exact opposite view, despite it technically being a socially liberal position.

I see what you're saying. We have very different ideas about what makes a person a social conservative, so we're not really talking about the same group of people.

Also, those grey areas are pretty big. Health care and education are just as "social" as they are "fiscal," because so much education and health care is privately funded and publicly funded. Marriage straddles the line, too, because same-sex "marriage" is not about enforcing morality, or policing what people do. The question is whether government should recognize it. Same-sex couples have the right to live together and have wedding ceremonies, even if government doesn't recognize such. Marriage is neither strictly private, nor strictly public. Of course, it's not some private reserve of religion, either, as people like Paul delude themselves into thinking.  ;/
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 10:17:09 AM by fistful »
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2012, 10:14:18 AM »
I think libertarian minded folks get jumpy when social conservatism comes up because of those who would use the power of government to enforce conservative  social values or views.
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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2012, 10:20:11 AM »
I think libertarian minded folks get jumpy when social conservatism comes up because of those who would use the power of government to enforce conservative  social values or views.

Some examples of enforcing conservative social values by force of government?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2012, 10:22:34 AM »
I think libertarian minded folks get jumpy when social conservatism comes up because of those who would use the power of government to enforce conservative  social values or views.

Some of them do; some of them are like gunsmith.

Some people get downright hateful. There is way too much distrust on both sides. We need to work together, as the Left is both our common enemy, and the greatest danger to our country. They are also the group most inclined to impose their social ideas through government policy.
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Ron

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2012, 10:23:33 AM »
Quote
the Left is both our common enemy, and the greatest danger to our country. They are also the group most inclined to impose their social ideas through government policy.

QFT
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2012, 10:23:43 AM »
Some examples of enforcing conservative social values by force of government?

Have already been given in this thread. War on drugs and drug laws are heavily influenced by conservative social views.  Laws on prostitution are another. And then there is the rise of "compassionate" conservatism......
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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2012, 10:27:18 AM »
Have already been given in this thread. War on drugs and drug laws are heavily influenced by conservative social views.  Laws on prostitution are another. And then there is the rise of "compassionate" conservatism......

The war on drugs is being waged by the left every bit as much as the right. I'm not sure conservatives have to own that one in toto.

Same could be said about prostitution, laws against prostitution have a very wide pool of support.

If anything those two examples prove how weak the argument about busy body social conservatives actually is.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

MillCreek

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2012, 10:29:40 AM »
I think libertarian minded folks get jumpy when social conservatism comes up because of those who would use the power of government to enforce conservative  social values or views.

This brings up something that I have been keeping track of for the past few weeks.  Many of the women I associate with socially or professionally are employed in education, healthcare or law.  Most of them have graduate or professional degrees.  Most of them are along the moderate to conservative end of the political spectrum.  I have been struck lately by how many of them have really been turned off by the national Republicans in general and Senator Santorum in particular.  Rightly or wrongly, there is a perception among these women that the Republicans want to turn back the clock on social gender issues.  They think that a Santorum administration will be run by middle-aged white males for the benefit of middle-aged white males and Lord help you if you are not a stay at home mother and housewife.  

So this is an interesting observation based on this particular demographic.  Much more than political affiliation, they are paying attention to gender issues.  Part of this may just be how Washington goes in national elections, which tends to be pretty centrist.  
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Ron

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2012, 10:32:30 AM »
That's why I was interested in specifics. I hear a lot of generalities and rhetoric about the evil social conservatives wanting to turn back the clock but not as many specifics on what they purportedly would do, other than not promote progressive government initiatives that undermine traditional family values.

edited to add:

The two biggest issues I've always associated with social conservatism are resisting the use of government force in expanding the definition of the word "marriage" and the institution of marriage to include same sex couples. Of course restricting abortion and resisting the use of taxpayers money in promoting or supporting abortion is the cause that woke up the social conservatives back in the 80's.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 11:00:18 AM by Ron »
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Balog

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2012, 10:59:03 AM »
This brings up something that I have been keeping track of for the past few weeks.  Many of the women I associate with socially or professionally are employed in education, healthcare or law.  Most of them have graduate or professional degrees.  Most of them are along the moderate to conservative end of the political spectrum.  I have been struck lately by how many of them have really been turned off by the national Republicans in general and Senator Santorum in particular.  Rightly or wrongly, there is a perception among these women that the Republicans want to turn back the clock on social gender issues.  They think that a Santorum administration will be run by middle-aged white males for the benefit of middle-aged white males and Lord help you if you are not a stay at home mother and housewife.  

So this is an interesting observation based on this particular demographic.  Much more than political affiliation, they are paying attention to gender issues.  Part of this may just be how Washington goes in national elections, which tends to be pretty centrist.  

To me this just demonstrates lack of critical thinking among the highly educated. What, precisely, do they envision Santorum doing that would "turn back the clock"? And I say that as a person vehemently opposed to his candidacy.
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MillCreek

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2012, 11:11:18 AM »
To me this just demonstrates lack of critical thinking among the highly educated. What, precisely, do they envision Santorum doing that would "turn back the clock"? And I say that as a person vehemently opposed to his candidacy.

His position on abortion and contraceptives are quoted most frequently.
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Balog

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2012, 11:17:48 AM »
His position on abortion and contraceptives are quoted most frequently.

Well, he's explicitly stated he doesn't wish to ban contraceptives. Speaking politically, the only way he could would be an executive order, and using an EO to do that would be a great way to get impeached. And really, not being able to get an abortion is going to force wymmen back into the kitchen?  ;/
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longeyes

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2012, 11:24:53 AM »
This brings up something that I have been keeping track of for the past few weeks.  Many of the women I associate with socially or professionally are employed in education, healthcare or law.  Most of them have graduate or professional degrees.  Most of them are along the moderate to conservative end of the political spectrum.  I have been struck lately by how many of them have really been turned off by the national Republicans in general and Senator Santorum in particular.  Rightly or wrongly, there is a perception among these women that the Republicans want to turn back the clock on social gender issues.  They think that a Santorum administration will be run by middle-aged white males for the benefit of middle-aged white males and Lord help you if you are not a stay at home mother and housewife.  

So this is an interesting observation based on this particular demographic.  Much more than political affiliation, they are paying attention to gender issues.  Part of this may just be how Washington goes in national elections, which tends to be pretty centrist.  

Well...is it a surprise that the two real parties are the Feminist Party and the Masculinist Party in America?  No good conservative wants to deprive women of their valid Constitutional rights or economic opportunities, but let us be clear about the role women have played in advancing Democrat agendas and Progressivism in the last century.  Reality is called for, not chivalry.  Many American women are very comfortable with the hubby-state, and not to recognize that is to ignore hard, unpleasant fact.  And let me add something: women in America have a lot to do with American indebtedness and consumerism, and men have willingly enabled that.  I am not advocating anything here, just making no doubt unwelcome observations.
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Ron

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2012, 11:26:44 AM »
His position on abortion and contraceptives are quoted most frequently.

In case you missed my edit I had added the following to my post above.

Quote
The two biggest issues I've always associated with social conservatism are resisting the use of government force in expanding the definition of the word "marriage" and the institution of marriage to include same sex couples. Of course restricting abortion and resisting the use of taxpayers money in promoting or supporting abortion is the cause that woke up the social conservatives back in the 80's.

Let me follow up on the bringing up of contraception by saying, using tax dollars to promote and pay for contraception is neither socially conservative nor libertarian.  
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2012, 11:28:13 AM »
Well, he's explicitly stated he doesn't wish to ban contraceptives. Speaking politically, the only way he could would be an executive order, and using an EO to do that would be a great way to get impeached. And really, not being able to get an abortion is going to force wymmen back into the kitchen?  ;/

Abortion on demand = "consequence free" sex. That's the real issue. It's also why its supporters claim conservatives are really only interested in stopping people from having sex. That's their only concern so they assume that's why conservatives are opposed to abortion.
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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2012, 11:29:28 AM »
Well, he's explicitly stated he doesn't wish to ban contraceptives.

And no politician has ever said one thing to get elected and then done the opposite?

Quote
Speaking politically, the only way he could would be an executive order, and using an EO to do that would be a great way to get impeached. And really, not being able to get an abortion is going to force wymmen back into the kitchen?  ;/

I detest Santorum and don't believe he is a real fiscal conservative anyways, that said you are probably correct that he wouldn't really affect women's day to day lives much. However the things he says probably make many of them uncomfortable with seeing him as president, heck some of the things out of his mouth make me uncomfortable and I'm not gay or a woman and other than having my own opinions on gay marriage and abortion could really care less about either as neither is likely to ever affect me.



longeyes

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2012, 11:29:37 AM »
Anti-Satanism may not be a winning strategy for conservatives but neither will a hash pipe in every pot.  

Santorum's not behind the times, he's ahead of them.  At some point America will be compelled to address the moral delinquencies that made this time possible; it will also be compelled to address who orchestrated the moral disintegration so many feel around them.  It is only natural that Santorum would be accused of promoting theocracy by people who themselves have spend decades trying to create a materialist utopia on earth that is nothing less than a secular theocracy.
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longeyes

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2012, 11:59:41 AM »
And no politician has ever said one thing to get elected and then done the opposite?

I detest Santorum and don't believe he is a real fiscal conservative anyways, that said you are probably correct that he wouldn't really affect women's day to day lives much. However the things he says probably make many of them uncomfortable with seeing him as president, heck some of the things out of his mouth make me uncomfortable and I'm not gay or a woman and other than having my own opinions on gay marriage and abortion could really care less about either as neither is likely to ever affect me.

Really, what the people around you believe and do isn't going to affect you?  How do you think we got to the point where we are today?

As for how uncomfortable Santorum or anyone else makes us, that is all to the good.  We need to be discussing primal things in a time when our existential survival is in deep jeopardy.  There should be NO sacred cows.
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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2012, 12:03:15 PM »
In our upside down Orwellian world a politician who stops federal funding of contraceptions (or government mandates demanding coverage) would be pilloried for "banning contraception" and not supporting womens reproductive rights.

As if federal funding of contraception is a human right  ;/  

Some things do need to be reversed, like the intrusion of government mandates and funding into every area of our existence.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

MikeB

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2012, 12:04:29 PM »
Anti-Satanism may not be a winning strategy for conservatives but neither will a hash pipe in every pot.  

Santorum's not behind the times, he's ahead of them.  At some point America will be compelled to address the moral delinquencies that made this time possible; it will also be compelled to address who orchestrated the moral disintegration so many feel around them.  It is only natural that Santorum would be accused of promoting theocracy by people who themselves have spend decades trying to create a materialist utopia on earth that is nothing less than a secular theocracy.

And there is what scares non-religious people. That pretty much reads that you would like to dictate what my morals should be to me, no thanks, I don't need you or Santorum to tell me how to live my life. Nevermind that Santorum hasn't done one thing to my knowledge to indicate he is a true fiscal conservative anyways. This is why we can't have nice things, the social conservatives support fiscal liberals instead of fiscal conservatives.

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2012, 12:12:13 PM »
Folks want the fruit of being a moral virtuous culture without actually being moral or virtuous.

The old tired quote is no less true because of its overuse.

Quote
“America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.” - Alexis de Tocqueville

Like when Pilate stated "What is truth?" the modern American states "What is good?"  

The answer for the average American is increasingly, a narcissistic lifestyle coupled with someone else footing the bill.

That is not good and not the path to greatness.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 12:16:45 PM by Ron »
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2012, 12:14:05 PM »
And there is what scares non-religious people. That pretty much reads that you would like to dictate what my morals should be to me, no thanks, I don't need you or Santorum to tell me how to live my life. Nevermind that Santorum hasn't done one thing to my knowledge to indicate he is a true fiscal conservative anyways. This is why we can't have nice things, the social conservatives support fiscal liberals instead of fiscal conservatives.

Well, all I can say is SOMEONE better start telling WASHINGTON DC how to lead their lives because they're screwing up our lives with what they're doing now!! >:D
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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2012, 12:21:16 PM »
Well, all I can say is SOMEONE better start telling WASHINGTON DC how to lead their lives because they're screwing up our lives with what they're doing now!! >:D

Easy answer that was already given. Social conservatives need to worry more about voting for fiscal conservatives than voting for people that use the "correct" rhetoric when talking about abortion, or gays, or whatever the "moral" cause of the day is. Every time they elect a big government social conservative like Santorum, we move closer to the edge, or they turn off enough of the independents that we get Obama and move closer even faster.